Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Failed log/March 2010

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 12:45, 31 March 2010 [1].

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List of NESIS storms

Nominator(s): –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it fills a gap, gives orphaned storm articles a place to thrive, and is informative. I wrote it mostly from scratch, and believe it fulfills all the criteria. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:29, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Staxringold talkcontribs 19:30, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments Why is March 1993 (scored 11.52) ranked above Jan 1996 (scored 11.54)? More description of how that score is calculated is really needed. "This page documents" isn't really brilliant prose. Generally try to avoid things like "This list" or "this page". The source information belongs in the references, anyways. Staxringold talkcontribs 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC) Silly type—fixed. I don't really agree. If it's needed, it can go in the main NESIS article, not the list of storms. How else would I word it? Sometimes brilliance must be compromised for accuracy and clarity. –Juliancolton | Talk 23:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC) The details of the source information isn't really necessary. I don't note, for example, that "This page documents XYZ draft picks of the Kansas City Royals listed on Baseball-Reference.com" That is established by the entries on the table and the references for them. I could see the whole second paragraph reworded more as: "77 storms have been rated on the NESIS scale. The most rare category is "extreme", with only two storms, and the most common "notable", encompassing 24 events. XYZ of the storms occured between December and March, with ABC occuring from April to November. Five storms are currently listed based on preliminary data." That's not true, though. Theoretically, there could be hundreds or thousands of storms to which NESIS may be applied; the 77 listed here are simply the most organized and documented. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Wait, this isn't all the storms it's been applied to? Then the biggest thing this list needs is {{Dynamic list}}. And I would still say you don't have to spell out where the data is coming from in the lead. List it as a reference, that covers it. Staxringold talkcontribs 00:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC) I think it's better to specify a strict scope rather than leave readers without a clue as to how the selection of entries is chosen. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:02, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Mkay. In any case Dynamic list is definitely needed. I would, at most, leave it as something like "Available sources document 77 storms scored on the NESIS scale", eg. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:05, 2 March 2010 (UTC) But if it sets a strict scope, it's not dynamic. And saying "Available sources say..." violates WP:WEASEL. This page has a scope, and it's not meant to vaguely hint at other definitions. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:06, 2 March 2010 (UTC) If that's what you mean by strict scope I completely disagree. This isn't List of NESIS storms documented in XYZ, this is List of NESIS storms. List of brain tumor patients, or any of our alumni lists, don't specify only particular sources. They are a grouping of all available data on the subject at hand. What you are suggesting is an article I think would have to be List of NESIS storms described in Northeast Snowstorms, and I don't think that article passes WP:GNG. List of NESIS storms (assuming there is no perfect list of all storms) is almost a textbook example, in my opinion, of a dynamic list. Loads of potential entries but you only have a limited number of them documented. You can't change this by arbitrarily limiting a broad list to two sources just because that's what you have. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:18, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Look again? –Juliancolton | Talk 01:49, 2 March 2010 (UTC) I dunno. That's better, with the dynamic list note, but my problem with this (now knowing there are thousands of storms) is the same as the problem I leveled with the US politicians who've used cannabis list. I don't mind dynamic lists, but they have to come close to some reasonable level of meeting criteria 3a. Again, brain tumor patients and alumni lists list hundreds upon hundreds of entries. As with the cannabis list I don't feel like I can oppose over this, but I don't feel I can support either. Staxringold talkcontribs 02:16, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Which is why I wanted to go with my previous idea... I guess I'll withdraw this FLC if it means the quality has to be compromised to get it passed. –Juliancolton | Talk 02:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC) So soon? Maybe it's a good idea to wait a couple days and ask other editors (including those from the hurricane project) for their opinion before throwing in the towel. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC) What was your previous idea? Staxringold talkcontribs 02:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Setting the scope up-front. Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of retired Pacific typhoon names (JMA) encountered a similar issue around two years ago. –Juliancolton | Talk 02:33, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Note several fixes, like removing source details, reordering April and November (since otherwise November to April sounds like the same time period as December to March, just with one month more on either side), and a period on the end. Maybe include more facts like most active years, things like that. Staxringold talkcontribs 00:28, 2 March 2010 (UTC) On it. –Juliancolton | Talk 00:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC) I keep tinkering with it. Let me know when it's good. –Juliancolton | Talk 03:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Could you include the table from the NOAA website of the corresponding NESIS score, category, and description? I know that above you said details belong at the main NESIS page, but understanding the NESIS scale is crucial to a list about NESIS storms. Alright, will do. –Juliancolton | Talk 17:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Speaking of that, the NOAA site lists completely different values than those in the table. March 12-14 1993 is listed as 12.52 on the table, 13.20 on the NOAA site, eg. Which is "correct"? Staxringold talkcontribs 17:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Where data between the two sources differed, I used the book. Should I clarify that in a footnote or something? –Juliancolton | Talk 17:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC) I think so, I was rather surprised to see different values in one of the article sources. Why do you think the book is more reliable than the NOAA site? Staxringold talkcontribs 17:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC) The book was written by the meteorologists who developed NESIS. :-) –Juliancolton | Talk 17:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Gotcha. Yes then, I'd stick a footnote on the "NESIS rank" at the top of the table (or in the key, when you add it) noting that you are doing this. Staxringold talkcontribs 18:29, 2 March 2010 (UTC) Done. Thanks for all the help. –Juliancolton | Talk 19:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments "occur in the latter category" why not just "are in the latter category"? How is it similar to the other scales? "the population aspect of a storm's impact" do you mean "the number of people directly affected by the storm"? "7 post-2004 " I think it's a fair call to say "seven post-2004" here. "The most rare category is "extreme", with only two storms," - isn't "most rare" actually "rarest"? And haven't you already said this in the first paragraph? The February 2010 link is misleading as it links to a storm, not a date. "Five recent storms..." what's the definition of recent? Post-book publication..? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 4 March 2010 (UTC) Done most of these. What kind of additional information are you looking for? The actual algorithm used, or just general climatology data? –Juliancolton | Talk 01:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• I think, while the lead image is interesting, it's not clear to me how the NESIS value is derived still. Perhaps you can explain this more fully in the lead.
  • I'd like more description of the algorithm because the image used seems quite complex and requires some level of knowledge of moderately complicated mathematical ideas.
• How does the numbering system work? Are 8 and 9 the wrong way round?
• Ref 4 is a footnote, not a reference.
• Aren't 23 & 24 really 23=?
• Same with 28 & 29. If not then a note as to how the fractions are dealt with would be useful.

The Rambling Man (talk) 17:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment What's the status on TRM's comments? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

• I think I fixed many of them, but I'm sort of at a loss as to how to add more information. I'd have no idea how to add the mathematical algorithms and such. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 01:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'm no expert either but it's really important that the lead clearly and concisely explains how the values for these storms are calculated. Sorry if that's a pain, but I think it's essential. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

• One issue is that the method of calculation might differ from the original Northeast Snowstorms book to the current NCDC records. I'm not sure how to verify that (I'm not even sure it's accurate), but this is getting a bit difficult. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 03:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• A little more history/details would be nice, such as in a section outside the lede and before the actual list. Was there ever a similar scale before that ranked nor'easters? When was the scale even created, and why? Is the scale used at all by the public, or even the private sector for that matter? You have the diagram on the top-right of the page, but it'd be nice seeing in the article how it's tabulated. My feeling is that the stubby Northeast Snowfall Impact Scale should be merged/redirected to the list, since you covered most of that content already. I just feel the current list is a bit lackluster, and maybe some of what I recommended could give it a nice touch. If I had to vote, I'd oppose per 3b, since I think those details are important. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• How is the list not substantial enough to stand on its own? –Juliancolton | ^Talk 17:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• I privately left you comments. I feel some basic info is needed, such as when the scale was invented, and why, who uses it (anyone other than NCDC?) and why. Regarding substantialness, I feel the current NECIS article is not substantial enough on its own, especially since this scale is so new, which is why I think the NECIS should be moved to the list article. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 04:04, 29 March 2010 [2].

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List of United States Military Academy alumni (World War I)

Nominator(s): — Rlevse • Talk • 14:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because next in my long series of US service academy alumni FLs. Many thanks to User:Ahodges7 and User:Packerfansam for immense help on the Army alum lists. — Rlevse • Talk • 14:36, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from GrapedApe T · C 19:00, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

*Would it be possible to get a West Point photo of WWI-era graduates for the lead? Have not seen such a photo, but I changed it to Pike, the only MOH WWI alum, I think it's better than the logo. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC) That looks better. I'm still not the biggest fan of the contemporaneous hat-toss, but haven't been able to find a better one.--GrapedApe (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Several of these names are best known for their exploits in other wars, like Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur. Perhaps there ought to be a clarification (at the end of the 2nd paragraph in the lead?) noting that some of these men might appear in other lists? Hmm. This is noted in inline comments in the article (view in edit mode). Haven't done this in the main text of any FLs in this series. Thinking on this I think it would be awkward and distracting to put in main text. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:30, 28 March 2010 (UTC) After looking over a few of these, I guess that makes sense.--GrapedApe (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC) The notability descriptions for Patton and MacArthur are pretty long; is there a way to trim those? Perhaps by cutting some of the things for which they are the namesake. Both men are really well known, so I don't think that we need to know (in this list) all the different things that are named after them. Been thinking this myself, trimmed. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC) Does this include all the graduates who received Medals of Honor in WWI? There was only one, Pike, good catch, I've added him. See the MOH list in this series (alum template at bottom of list) — Rlevse • Talk • 02:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC) --GrapedApe (talk) 01:13, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• No one has yet given me an adequate explanation of why the lead was just fine for so many FLs, up to just 3 weeks ago and now it's so god awful messed up. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:49, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Regarding the parallel discussion here, I can't speak to the FLC process in the other West Point alumni lists, but I'm just stating my opinion (for what it's worth), that I think the leads of these spin-off lists should include some discussion of the sub-topic. I think we're all just trying to be helpful and to help these lists become as good as possible. --GrapedApe (talk) 18:59, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 04:04, 29 March 2010 [3].

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List of United States Military Academy alumni (Union Army)

Nominator(s): — Rlevse • Talk • 20:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it is next in my series of FLs on US service academy alumni. I'd like to note and thank User:Packerfansam for his huge help on this one. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:38, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Jujutacular T · C 00:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments: I'm guessing the 1863 flag is included because it was used during the majority of the Civil War? Perhaps improve the caption so this is clear. good point, done, also tweaked the body — Rlevse • Talk • 23:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure this image is the best to use in the lead, as this is a historical list. Try to find a more appropriate, historical image. This is used in several other USMA FLs, the "hat toss" is a huge tradition at all US military academies, this is the 200th anniv graduation, it's very historical and prob the best hat toss pic I've ever seen, I have to say this image should stay. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC) No good hat-toss images from 1860!? ;) Alright, looks okay. Jujutacular T · C 00:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Image alt text could be improved, to be more descriptive. "more descriptive" doesn't tell me much of what you're looking for. Also consider it's now essenitally no longer even required, so I don't see a reason to squabble over alttext wording. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC) News to me! Looks fine then. Jujutacular T · C 00:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC) Ancestry.com external links are currently down, but it looks like it might be temporary. Keep an eye on it. Moot point. I have replaced them with good book refs. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC) William Hays: source does not seem reliable. Agree. Changed to book ref — Rlevse • Talk • 23:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC) Jujutacular T · C 20:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Hal Jespersen (talk) comments

There is a lot of content in the lead section is not relevant to the stated purpose of the list. Anything that concerns people or practices post-1865, for instance, should be in the article about the Academy itself. (Example: what relevance does the Air Force Academy have to an article about the Union Army?) The first sentence seems like it was copied from another list and modified incompletely. If there is a comparable article about the Confederate Army, you should point to it. Hal Jespersen (talk) 23:30, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

The normal practice in featured lists is to introduce the subject in a general manner to provide context to the reader. See recently promoted lists. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

UH, that is completely contrary to what you yourself and TRM promoted to FL here: List_of_United_States_Military_Academy_alumni_(Confederate_States_Army) just a few weeks ago. The leads in CSA and the current FLC list are set identical. Can we get some consistency? — Rlevse • Talk • 23:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Ooops, thought Dabomb wrote both posts there. See User_talk:Dabomb87#Consistency. My point is that if this setup/style is OK a few weeks ago in the CSA list is FL-able, then it's okay here. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the lead of the list tells us more than we need to know about the Academy in modern times (current curriculum, lots of Rhodes scholars, lots of distinguished alumni etc) and disproportionately less about the contents of the list itself, let alone the Academy as it was then. If nobody raised this issue in previous FLCs, that doesn't mean that noone can raise it in this. If improvements could never be made, then all new FLs would still be starting "This is a list of xxx". A few other points that jump out at me before I go to get some lunch:

The same lead has been used in several FLs in this series and given one of the FL directors supports it here I'm not going to remove it just because one guy doesn't like it. I'm not saying it can't be improved but largescale changes are unwarranted given this format has made it through several FLCs without major change. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's two reviewers, actually. Bencherlite^Talk 00:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Still not a consensus for a major change, certainly not when considering all the reviewers on the other FLs in this series. I don't consider this a valid objection. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's not throw out Bencherlite's suggestion entirely, but I can see why Rlevse opposes this change. Let's wait a bit to see what other neutral reviewers say. By the way, I won't be closing this FLC, for the record (as I'm too involved in this already). Dabomb87 (talk) 02:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the idea that the leads of these spin-off lists should have some discussion on the Civil War or the Union Army. By the way, I'm new to the whole FLC, and I would apply this opinion to all of the other West Point lists --GrapedApe (talk) 04:20, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I must say I also agree with Bencherlite on this point. By the time I'm finished reading the lead, I've forgotten that this list has anything to do with the Civil War. At the very least, the present tense used in the first sentence should be changed to past tense (educated and commissioned officers for the United States Army during the American Civil War). Jujutacular ^T · C 17:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• No dab links

There aren't supposed to be any — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, obviously, I know that; I was confirming (for the benefit of future reviewers) that this aspect is fine. Why on earth would you think that this was a complaint? Having one reviewer say "no dab links and external links fine" (or whatever) is a standard FLC/FAC thing. Come on. Bencherlite^Talk 00:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

If nothing's wrong, why mention it? Come on — Rlevse • Talk • 01:17, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Bencherlite wasn't trying to mislead you; these days a lot of editors make technical comments at FACs and FLCs regarding the dabs, web links and such, so Bencherlite was just making it clear these things had been checked. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Alt text not checked as no longer part of the criteria
• External links all functioning, apart from this one

Working now, but moot as I made a bettter ref — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• John Blair Smith Todd's class year is missing

Fixed type in parameter — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• General reference b has a malformed date

Fixed — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Ref 2 is missing a "?" at the end

Fixed — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Ref 10 is odd ("3" isn't the title, surely?)

Fixed — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• Similarly ref 14

Fixed — Rlevse • Talk • 00:50, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the reliability of the websources used to give them the all-clear, but this one for instance doesn't strike me as a RS, nor does this one (the website's submission policy is here and doesn't fill me with confidence). Bencherlite^Talk 13:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Replaced both refs with better ones. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Support. Seems to be in line with previous FLCs of USMA alumni. The issues raised about the lead have not been seen as a problem before. Not really sure why this seems to have generated so much consternation for this candidacy.  Ahodges7   ^talk 19:29, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

GrapedApe (talk) comments

• Are there any photos of Civil War/Union soldiers during their time as students? That would be better for the lead, rather than the contemporary photo of graduates.

This is used in several other USMA FLs, the "hat toss" is a huge tradition at all US military academies, this is the 200th anniv graduation, it's very historical and prob the best hat toss pic I've ever seen, I have to say this image should stay. And no, there are no know group grad/hat toss photos from that era. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• I really think a link to the Confederate list would be appropriate, possibly in a "see also" section.

It's in the alumni lists in the template at the bottom. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• The talk page has 2 soldiers who are not on the list. I can't see a reason not to include them in the main list.

The article states this list is for Union generals and the section heading informs the reader these two weren't generals in the Civil War (MacKenzie became one afterwards). The list is already large and if we included all WP alums who were in the war it'd go way beyond manageable size. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• For Sherman, the phrase "treated the demerit system at West Point with disdain, which lowered his class standing from fourth to sixth" is ambiguous. Make it clear somehow that it was his running afoul of the demerit system--not his disdain itself--that caused him to receive demerits.

Can of worms. I removed it. It's still in his article. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• For Joseph Hooker, perhaps note how he is known popularly (albeit possibly incorrectly, according to his article) for his name's connection to "hooker"

Hmm. Maybe best to leave that out. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I dunno. If you ask the layman, like me, "What is General Hooker best known for?" I bet most people, like me, would mention hookers. What about adding "Popular legend connects his name to the term "hooker," slang for a prostitute" to the notability section.--GrapedApe (talk) 18:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• The notability sections for Alexander McDowell McCook and James B. McPherson are pretty long--perhaps trim the things that are named after them?

Done. Plus a few others. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• For William H. French, the list of battles should be clarified. Did he command soldiers there, or was he just a soldier in them? Actually, this applies to a lot of entries and should be clarified in all.

Done. But notating "just a soldier" is not worth it, can be induced from not saying they were a commander. Also, where would you draw the line? Is it worth saying "platoon leader at..."? — Rlevse • Talk • 13:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I see the point of not wanted to enumerate all the various positions, but I was still confused. Perhaps something in the lead could clarify that? Actually, for some of these soldiers, is it even worth listing battles where they merely served as infantry? --GrapedApe (talk) 18:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• Does this include all West Point graduates who received Medals of Honor for the Union during the Civil War?

Good catch. It does now. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:33, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• • --GrapedApe (talk) 03:50, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

• No one has yet given me an adequate explanation of why the lead was just fine for so many FLs, up to just 3 weeks ago and now it's so god awful messed up. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:48, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't think anyone here is saying the lead was just fine for the other FLs, most of us were not involved with them. I also don't think anyone is saying it's "god awful messed up". I'd welcome you to invite the old reviewers to comment here. Believe me, I don't mind if consensus is against me, all I can say is how I truly feel and why I feel that way. Jujutacular ^T · C 18:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
    • If it was not fine before there would not be several FLs with the exact same lead. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
      • Is there another historical alumni featured list besides List of United States Military Academy alumni (Confederate States Army)? Jujutacular ^T · C 18:32, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
        • I can't speak to the FLC process in the other West Point alumni lists, but I'm just stating my opinion (for what it's worth), that I think the leads of these spin-off lists should include some discussion of the sub-topic. I think we're all just trying to be helpful and to help these lists become as good as possible. --GrapedApe (talk) 18:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 04:41, 26 March 2010 [4].

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List of The Brady Bunch episodes

Nominator(s): Jrh7925 (talk) 00:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because, after working hard on cleaning up both the presentation of the material and the references for the material, I feel it could be considered a featured list. Jrh7925 (talk) 00:08, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• Restarted, old version.
• Note I have restarted this nom, as the page was getting long and the consensus was unclear. Can all reviewers please restate their opinions and list whatever concerns they have left? Dabomb87 (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Support Looks good. Jimknut (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• What's with the random letter j in the episode number box of season 5 episode 20......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks to be a typo of some sort. Fixed. Jrh7925 (talk) 09:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose I find the absence of references to be astonishing, coupled with the fact that majority of the reference present is from a retail source like Amazon.com. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 09:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment According to tools:~dispenser/cgi-bin/rdcheck.py/List of The Brady Bunch episodes you have some duplicate IDs and some of those redirects should likely be point to a season or episode number. — Dispenser 16:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments:

• What is so important about Gilligan's Island that it merits being mentioned in the first sentence of this article? Although I know little about either, for me The Brady Bunch is the better known of the two. But this may be my ignorance!
• "Even with negative reviews, The Brady Bunch managed to maintain within the Nielsen top thirty." - Sounds clunky to me, could you possibly reword the sentence better? I'm not sure you are using maintain properly either, not sure.
• "Ratings however, began to dip, and..." - As above really, the structure and wording seems off. There look to be too many commas, and yet there should really be another before "however". Harrias (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 21:15, 25 March 2010 [5].

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List of FC Barcelona legends

Nominator(s): Sandman888 (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

This list was through FL in quite another form (List of FC Barcelona players which I'm thinking of nominating aswell). It's now completely referenced, all who qualify are definitely on the list. All comments appreciated! Cheers! Sandman888 (talk) 16:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 11:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

*Which nationality was Gamper? Says in list. I'm talking about the lead. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC) Swiss mentioned. A bit misleading to say "the most successful club" (linking it) then to say "after Real Madrid". You need to be honest up front and say "the second-most successful club". hardly misleading when it's in the same sentence, but changed. Why isn't Real linked in the lead? linked "and the most successful club in Spanish football after Real Madrid" you've already said that. Oops! Avoid linking the same thing more than once. a link removed. "official major trophies" what, exactly, is an "official major trophy"? removed official if that's unclear Sorry I meant major. Now what is a "major trophy"? The Rambling Man (talk) 23:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC) official trophy it is. Wasn't the Inter-Cities Fairs cup the predecessor to the UEFA Cup, not the Europa League? That came next.. To be exact here would make the sentence cumbersome. "ICFC was the pre to the UEFA Cup which was the pre to the Europa League" "was also one of the first football players the club had " reads poorly for me. Perhaps "was one of the club's first players"? changed "for most goals in one match, with nine goals scored" no need to repeat goals. nine scored it is. "13 years after the..." MOS says we don't start sentences with numerics. right you are "13 years after" then " the club in 1912 " you don't need both. not logically, but it keeps ppl up to date. Some a priori knowledge can be handy to receive a posteriori (like large primes) No, just stick to one nice and clear part of English prose. The Rambling Man (talk) Changed, but not for the better. "Today..." caught in time. You should specify when. Done "In the 100 years since Alcántara joined..." you said he joined in 1912 - it's only 2010... almost it is Nope, we're an encyclopedia. "almost it is" isn't good enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC) 98 years then "seven FIFA World Player and Ballon d'Or awards, making it the club with most FIFA World Player of the Year awards" as far as I know, they don't add World Player and Ballon d'Or together to make most "POTY" awards. No, seven FIFA = most FIFA awards So why say "and the Ballon d'Or awards" because that's nothing to do with player of the year at all? The Rambling Man (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) reversed so Ballon dor & fifa "and had a record 6 of it's players along" - six, and no apostrophe thanks. Done "This list include all 50 players " not grammatically correct. "The list include all of the 50 players rego..." is that better? What is the "Campionat de Catalunya"? Done "Players are listed according to the date " - initially perhaps. what do you mean? The table is sortable so you should say that the list is "initially" sorted the way you made it. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:59, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Done Why doesn't Piera have an article with way over 300 appearances for one the most successful clubs in Europe? Because Spanish football is seriously neglected on the English wiki (everything non-English is) Make an article then! The Rambling Man (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Done Enrique "Quini" Castro links to "Quini" while Deco's full name isn't linked to. Why the difference? same now. What does bold text indicate in the table? record. Is that noted in the key? The Rambling Man (talk) 00:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Yes What is the "Pyrenees Cup"? No idea Well if you have no idea, then I'd suggest you shouldn't nominate an article that talks about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) It doesn't talk about, it's mentioned in brackets in a footnote. Talk about pointy. Not really pointy, just I didn't have a clue what this competition is. It's mentioned and not linked. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:55, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Done Why not include the details of the records in the notes? E.g. how fast was the fastest hat-trick? E.g. How many goals did Ronaldo score in one season? Good idea. Done. See WP:DASH for how to use en-dashes rather than spaced hyphens. Apply this to all references. dabomb87 did this. Web refs should have, as a minimum, title, accessdate and URL. Done Surely the publisher of the majority of your references is FC Barcelona, not fcbarcelona.cat etc? Okay, changed. Don't mix date formats in the references. Done FC Barcelona (as a cat) is unnecessary if you have FC Barcelona players as a category. Done Are these players "Legends" or "Mythical players"? Ref. follow the format of the source. They are referred to as both by FCB I think you should either say that in the lead or remove references to one of them to remain consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Done How did a Philippine player (Alcantara) come to join Barca? Immigrated? Explain. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Why is the nationality of Alcantara relevant? I imagine that a normal reader would be surprised that a legend (myth) of a Catalan club has, as one of its legends, a player from the other side of the planet in the earliest stages of the 20th century. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC) FIFA wrote about him here and didn't mention how he got over, I take it that it's irrelevant "had several of the worlds greatest players " your opinion. Stick to the facts. FIFA world player = world greatest player, hardly controversial. No, "worlds greatest players [sic]" does not equal FIFA player of the Year. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC) Done " friendly matches" - really? friendlies are included here? That's unusual. perhaps What does that mean? The Rambling Man (talk) 23:45, 13 March 2010 (UTC) Perhaps it is unusual, dont know what to say.

• At some point you ought to state what a "club legend" is, how it was determined etc.
  • FCB choose these players into a hall of fame. But as to FCB's criteria, that's not stated.
    • This list is incomplete if it doesn't describe how people are added. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:34, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
      • I don't agree. If the criteria > 100 national caps was used, should it then state how the coach determine who gets a call-up before it is considered complete?
        • No, I'm just wondering how the club choose them. I.e. do they vote? Somebody must make the decision... The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
        • Some information added.
          • The article now says: "After a player has stopped playing at Barcelona, the club decides if he is worthy of being included as an official club legend.[6]" I don't see anything along these lines at reference 6; running the only text on that page (""Aquesta secció es completarà progressivament amb les biografies de més jugadors històrics del FC Barcelona") through Google Translate I get "This section will be completed progressively over the biographies of historical players of FC Barcelona." So is this an official accolade of the club, or merely a partial list of former players that the club's website's editor has got round to profiling? Bencherlite^Talk 23:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
            • It's common usage on all Spanish football sites Real Madrid. If an English site had a "Hall of fame" wd you believe it was the website's editor who just put some random players in there? Historical shd translate as notable/legendary Sandman888 (talk) 07:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
              • I'd come here to ask the same question as Bencherlite. The difference is that an English club Hall of Fame is a formal structure officially organised by the club to honour past players or staff, with a selection procedure publicised in the media and (since the arrival of the internet) on the club website. When a club first initiates a Hall of Fame, there's a major announcement in the local media, and the initial induction is celebrated at some sort of well-reported ceremonial. Often (usually?) fans are invited to vote for the inductees, either with a free choice or from a list selected by the club. There's often some sort of physical acknowledgment at the club's stadium, like names on an honours board or photos displayed in a special lounge. New inductees go through a similar formal procedure and again, it's well reported in the media.
              • That's very different from a set of bios of former players on the club website. English clubs have those as well, but with no formal involvement from senior levels at the club and no selection procedure beyond a discussion in the editorial office along the lines of "shouldn't we do a page on so-and-so next..." The impression I get from the note quoted above, in the absence of any other evidence, is that Barcelona's legendary players are an example of the latter. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:53, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
• What makes bdfutbol.com a WP:RS?
  • widely used in Spanish football articles.
    • No, please tell me why it's reliable. I don't care if it's used elsewhere. The Rambling Man (talk) 00:33, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
      • It's an easily accessible version of lfp.es, which only show season-to-season stats.

The Rambling Man (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

• Quini sorts at the top of the list, above the "A"s, that doesn't seem right........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
  • He was chg for some reason. solved now Sandman888 (talk) 11:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose for the reasons that Struway gives above: on present evidence, there is nothing to suggest that this is a formal designation in any sense by the club or any organisation connected with the club. If this was a proper "Hall of Fame" grouping of past major players, I'd expect the list to be able to give references on when it started, who was added in which years, and who chooses the new additions. In the absence of all this, the list seems to be a pure content fork from the main list of players based purely on the fact that the website currently has a list of some former players and calls them "legends". Bencherlite^Talk 20:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• I don't see which FL criteria that has been violated - it seems arbitrary to deem an official list insufficient criteria and then gladly accept custom criteria as "players with 100 or more appearances or those who have received international caps while at the club or hold a club record." Sandman888 (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Content forks breach 3(b) of the criteria. And please stop calling it an "official list" unless you can show that it is an official list in the same way as a proper Hall of Fame list of players and officials, of the type explained by Struway. So far, all you've done is (a) point to a list on the club's website, which as I think we've established by now has no indication of who chose the names or when, let alone whether this list might even be there, or expanded or reduced, next time the website is updated; (b) allege that "After a player has stopped playing at Barcelona, the club decides if he is worthy of being included as an official club legend" but failed to give a proper reference for the sentence - worse, you've purported to verify the sentence by using a webpage which doesn't say this at all. A list based an official Hall of Fame is fine. A list based on a set of objective criteria about appearances, international players and club record-holders is fine, as you yourself have recently recognised at the FLRC for the Ipswich Town list (at least, you didn't raise it as an issue; incidentally, that Ipswich list includes a good example of a club's HoF if you still don't get the point). A list based on the fact that the club website calls them "legends" is not fine, because it is too shaky a basis; it is not an official designation. Bencherlite^Talk 22:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
    • On stand-alone lists "Is this person or thing a canonical example of some facet of X?" Most people wd say, yes this are famous footballers associated with Barcelona. Please say why this list fail to be a stand-alone list?
    • "A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject" Players does not equal legends. This isn't forking, at least you havn't established that.
    • It's official, yes. Regarding proper hall of fame that's an English custom. FCB doesn't have a town meeting and vote, that doesn't make it less official. Whether something is official or not does not depend on the way it is made (e.g. vote or not), but on the messenger, who says it.
    • "worse, you've purported to verify the sentence by using a webpage which doesn't say this at all." Really? Please explain why not.
    • "still don't get the point" - WP:CIVIL
    • The list is not "shaky", it has included the same players for at least 2 years now (since I first remember seeing it) (save Eto'o). You simply don't know this to be true. Cheerio! Sandman888 (talk) 22:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
      • We don't do "lists of famous players associated with Club X", we do lists with proper entry criteria such as Hall of Fame members, 100+ caps etc. "Currently listed by the club website as a legend" isn't in the same category as these. If this means that you have to restructure the list, then do that, rather than expect the standards to be varied.
      • Please give a reference that "legend" is an official club designation, as opposed to being a title used to describe some former players in a section of the club's website.
      • As for your request for an explanation of my complaint that you've purported to verify a sentence using a webpage that doesn't back up what's been written, can I refer you to my earlier comment, above? The article now says: "After a player has stopped playing at Barcelona, the club decides if he is worthy of being included as an official club legend.[6]" I don't see anything along these lines at reference 6; running the only text on that page (""Aquesta secció es completarà progressivament amb les biografies de més jugadors històrics del FC Barcelona") through Google Translate I get "This section will be completed progressively over the biographies of historical players of FC Barcelona." So is this an official accolade of the club, or merely a partial list of former players that the club's website's editor has got round to profiling? Perhaps if I'm wrong, you could explain why that webpage verifies the sentence in the article I've quoted?
      • Wasn't being deliberately uncivil, apologies if it came out that way. In my over-compressed way, I was pointing to what a Hall of Fame structure / set of references / news stories would look like if it was a concept with which you were unfamiliar, as your comment "If an English site had a "Hall of fame" wd you believe it was the website's editor who just put some random players in there?" suggested that you might not have understood the difference between a list of biographies on a website and an official hall of fame.
      • I'm not particularly interested in how long you tell me that website has been up, because that's not the issue. If it's not an official designation, then the website's list could change or disappear at any time as the website is revamped. In contrast, a club's Hall of Fame, with nominations and inductions etc, doesn't depend on the vagaries of the club website's structure. Bencherlite^Talk 23:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
        • Found the book that is at display at camp nou.Cotrina, Jordi; Finestres, Jordi (2005). Mites del Barça - Mitos del Barça - Legends of Barça. Angle Editorial. Barcelona. ISBN 8496521036. Hope this satisfies your 'stability' criteria. The book contains the pics, bio and stats on legends before 2005. Cheerio Sandman888 (talk) 00:29, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
          • Presumably the book describes how the legends are selected then. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
          • Well, that looks promising at least. I look forward to seeing (properly referenced) additions to the text of the list to address my concerns, then. I'm sure you'll be explaining the status of the book and / or its authors in relation to the club, so that the list isn't just a "list of Barca footballers who are called legends in this book". Bencherlite^Talk 10:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - nominator has not edited either the article itself or this FLC in nearly a week, suggest closure as he appears to have lost interest...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:16, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Indeed. Nominator has still to address the content fork issue properly - why do we need a List of FC Barcelona players with 100 caps/club records etc, and a different list for those called "legends" when (assuming it is an official position) this honour can be marked in the list of players? Bencherlite^Talk 11:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The nomination will have been running for ten days by around 5pm this afternoon. I will revisit it then and make a decision on whether it should be closed. After all, it can always be renominated once the existing issues are resolved. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello, two comments: 1. The book is not easily accessible, currently waiting for feedback from fcb and other sources. 2. Is the reference and description of how the list was made the only outstanding issue as of now? Sandman888 (talk) 14:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

If the book is not easily accessible, then I suggest you withdraw this FLC so that it doesn't clog up the page. Bring it back when you're ready. As for what other issues there might be, there's still the (rather basic) issue of whether the legends list should exist at all, or whether it's an ineligible content fork derived from the main list of players. I haven't reviewed the contents of the list yet and don't propose to do so unless both these issues are resolved. Bencherlite^Talk 15:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments I'd also been holding off doing a full review until the above matters were sorted. However, here's a few bits to be going on with, whether this current nomination continues or whether you resubmit later.

• Lead section: I'd expect it to go into rather less detail about how many trophies the club won, and rather more detail on what a legend is and how a person becomes one. And to say at least something about a few of the legendary players.
  • First part equals the above, last part I'll do later.
• The list of trophies won by the club needs referencing, particularly where record numbers of titles are claimed. Likewise the "unprecedented sextuple", and the "record six players" in the 2009 UEFA Team of the Year (the cited source doesn't mention it being a record).
  • Reffed.
• Ref #2 just goes to the member associations page of the UEFA website
  • UEFA.com is horrible. found archived version.
• Best not to include statements that date, like how many years since Alcantará joined (see WP:DATED)
  • Years don't change quickly.
• In the sentence about Alcantará's and Migueli's records, could you use the actual letters of the relevant notes (B and G) rather than asterisks. Also only link Alcantará once
  • Done
• Key: It's reasonable to link the competitions again here. Copa del Rey should have a small d. Please include European Cup in the list of comps: UEFA might want us to believe it's always been called the UEFA Champions League, but it hasn't :-)
• References: Web references should have at least: title, work and/or publisher (not just domain name), author if any, publication date if any. If the webpage isn't in English, the ref should say what language it is in; there's a cite templates parameter language=
• The LFP refs seem to have the player's DOB in the publication date field...
  • handy, right? rmvd.
• Is there any reason why you use the Catalan- rather than the English-language general reference (currently ref#6)?
  • no, chg'ed.
• The FranceFootball ref doesn't actually say that Suarez was the first Barcelona player to receive the award.
  • Other ref incl.
• What's the source for the captaincy dates?
• Could you check through the Notes to make sure that their cited source(s) verify all the information in each note. At the moment, there are several which don't.
• Date format should be consistent: in the refs, you use day-first, apart from ref #2, but in the article you use month-first.
• Could you consider using normal font size for the Notes.
  • Yes.
• Image captions which are complete sentences should have full stops (periods) (see MOS:CAPTIONS)

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:11, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose – If this is not an official club hall of fame, then this is a content fork of the players list and therefore fails criterion 3b. For a major club like Barcelona, there figures to be some press coverage if this is an official designation, and none has been presented so far. Even if such information is in the book, we can't wait indefinitely for it to be read and used as appropriate. Either way, this honor, if official, can be signified in the players list with colors and symbols, as Bencherlite says. I see no need for a seperate page. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 20:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - "(...) this honor, if official, can be signified in the players list with colors and symbols", for consistency this should be applied to all player of the year/hall of fame lists and then be removed from featured status. Is that your proposal? Sandman888 (talk) 08:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Standards change, and sure, there may be lists that don't 100% meet today's exacting standards. The same can be said of numerous featured articles. However, your role in this discussion is to try to get this list promoted, not other lists demoted. Or are you trying to make another point? I think you need to address the reviewers' concern which is whether this list is official or not. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm trying to get a consistent answer - I've started making the list because there was a precedent for POTY lists. Now POTY are suddenly content forks. And no, the reviewer isn't concerned whether the list is official or not, as he clearly states in the two last sentences. Sandman888 (talk) 08:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
      • I said "reviewers". Read the opposes, they are generally related to this not being an official hall of fame. I asked you to show me how the players are selected. Your only reference in the lead (currently 16) is misleading as it doesn't prove anything other a page on the FCB website with some "legends". There's not a word of text on when they're selected (you state when they stop playing, where is that cited?) or how. Address that concern before you look to demote other's work. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
        • That's 3 reviewers. But Giants2008 wd still oppose nevermind the sources I quote (as far as I can tell). I'm trying to get a consistent answer from him. Sandman888 (talk) 08:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
          • If there was evidence that the designation was official, I would probably let the 3b concern slide, to avoid setting a precedent that would endanger other featured lists. But there is still nothing telling any of us that this is official. Yes, that is my main concern, and no, I don't see why player of the year lists are being mentioned when this isn't a POY list. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 15:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• It shouldn't matter if other lists are endangered or not.
• I'm not able to obtain a copy of the book and have not received any information from FCB, so I withdraw the nomination or you can let it fail as it stand. Sandman888 (talk) 20:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 21:27, 22 March 2010 [6].

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List of Toronto subway and RT stations

Nominator(s): Zanimum (talk) 16:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

This list is complete, referenced, and valuable as a one-stop resource, so I thought, "what the heck?" -- Zanimum (talk) 16:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose / possible quick-fail from KV5

This list fails the FL criteria as follows:

• Cr.1: there is no writing.
• Cr.2: there is no lead.
• Cr.5: does not comply with MOS:COLOR and related articles, WP:ACCESS, etc.

It also doesn't have any inline citations outside of the column headers; I'm sure that this could be executed more elegantly. Checklinks shows that most of the ELs are dead, there's no alt text (even though this is no longer a requirement and is immaterial to my oppose), and the nominator is not a significant contributor to the article. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 17:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - no lead, daily ridership column seems to be unreferenced, as are notes -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:42, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
• Hmm, unfortunately it's more "why the heck?" than "what the heck?" for me. Needs a lot of work before it can be a FL, as the previous commentators have said. Strongly suggest withdrawal (compulsorily if not voluntarily) and reworking this, possibly going via peer review, before a second visit to FLC. But don't be discouraged - a lot of lists come back to FLC much stronger for these additional steps. Regards, Bencherlite^Talk 18:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Closing note please check out recently promoted lists of a similar nature. This list needs, as a minimum, a peer review but more importantly needs to comply with the latest updates to what makes a featured list. Check out List of UTA TRAX stations or List of San Francisco Municipal Railway lines for an idea of what we'd be looking for. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:25, 15 March 2010 [7].

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List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches

Nominator(s): NThomas (talk) 17:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it meets all of the FLC. I've based this list off of current WP:FLC List of North Carolina Tar Heels men's head basketball coaches and FL List of Oklahoma Sooners head basketball coaches. NThomas (talk) 17:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from NMajdan

Comments I feel like we've had this discussion before, but don't know where. I'm pretty sure the basketball side of the Big 12 is not separated into North and South Divisions. I did a search on the reference you have and it does not contain the phrase "South Division" anywhere. The standings on the Big 12 website doesn't split them out neither does a major media website. Removed NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) forth fourth. Corrected NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) No need to specify the NAIB abbreviation if it is not used elsewhere in the article. Removed NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) then assistant head coach, Pat Knight became Texas Tech's, 13th and current head coach I think you have a misplaced comma after Tech's. I corrected it as ...Tech's 13th, and current, head.... NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) 1975-76 and 2009-10. En dash. Corrected NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) There are a couple references to other seasons in the lead that could be wikilinked similar to the 1925-26 season. Corrected NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Reference 4 has the work parameter as "Texas Techsan Magazine" yet I can't find any mention of that on the website in question. Replaced the reference. Wrong one. NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) In the General key, bold all of the entries. Also, it might make sense to center them all as well. Bolded entries. Do you mean center the text or the entire key itself? NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Center the items in the first column, the abbreviations/indicators. Not the 2nd column.—NMajdan•talk Done. NThomas (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Is there a wikilink available for those awards? Yes, linked them. NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) The link for the Southwest Conference COY award links to the Southwest Conference article, which doesn't have any mention of the award. Either delink or link to another location with mention of the award.—NMajdan•talk There isn't an article to link the award to other then the SWC. So I've delinked it. NThomas (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC) References 7 and 8 need to be formatted correctly. Corrected NThomas (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2010 (UTC) References 7 & 8 (althought now 6 & 7) still need to be formatted correctly. The NYT article has a date and author that needs to be included and the other at least has a date.—NMajdan•talk I think it's right this time. NThomas (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC) How you're listing the coaches that have coached two separate terms is interesting and worth discussing. You separate out the two separate coaching terms of Huffman and Robison. My issue with this is this is a list of coaches and if I want to see how many wins/losses/whatever total either coaches has, I can't, and I think that is the focus of these lists. I took a different approach in another list I'm working on. I don't know which is the right approach and as a fellow creator of various coaching lists, I may not be the most unbiased judge of this. I would have included all terms into one entry but I based the separate terms on the NFL FLs. The biggest difference compared to those lists is that they are not sortable. I'd not opposed to combining the separate terms into one entry, but I do think it makes a difference seeing the records in separate terms (ex: Berl Huffman left Tech for WWII and Polk Robinson replaced him. After Huffman had a dismal season, he left for UNM was replaced by Polk. That's the kinda information separate terms show better than just a footnote) I see your point, but I'm still in the school of thought that this is a list of coaches and not coaching terms and so the coaches should be grouped together to give a total count on wins, losses, etc.—NMajdan•talk Did you create that sortable coaches list? I originally got it from the OU football list. If not, maybe there are other sortable coaches lists who's coaches have had multiple terms. An existing example would really help in deciding what to do. NThomas (talk) 01:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC) I create the OU list, yes. That was my first list and every list I've done has had subtle changes. The Texas A&M list I did has an example of my approach.—NMajdan•talk 01:36, 26 February 2010 (UTC) I've gone ahead and combined them. NThomas (talk) 17:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Great list! Love seeing more of these Big 12 lists.—NMajdan•talk 14:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support. All my concerns have been addressed.—NMajdan•talk 18:57, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. List fails featured list criterion 3b. Goodraise 15:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
  • How so? I thought 10 entries was the "unofficially official" length for an FL and even if you remove the two duplicate coaches, this list still passes that.—NMajdan•talk 16:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I would hazard a guess that it fails 3b in Goodraise's opinion because it could be reasonably incorporated into the main article, but I guess it would be helpful to know if this is the case. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• I don't see why this would have to be incorporated into Texas Tech Red Raiders men's basketball. I have yet to see a sortable coaches list within a team's article that is as large as this list is. This article is already almost half the size of the main article. Some elaboration other the a six word sentence would have helpful. NThomas (talk) 17:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• TRM guessed correctly. It is my opinion that this list should be incorporated into Texas Tech Red Raiders men's basketball, following WP:SS and WP:SIZE. In response to NMajdan, featured lists have to meet the featured list criteria, not a few editors' rule of thumb. Goodraise 17:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• But when the criteria is very much open to interpretation then it does. I do feel this list able to stand on its own. NThomas, might I suggest incorporating the women's basketball coaches into this list like I did here to lengthen this a bit?—NMajdan•talk 18:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
• Just a quick sandbox experiment – I've removed the repeated history and merged it with the current Red Raiders' article. Any thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• My biggest reason against the inclusion of this list into the main article is based on the newly christened GA Kansas City Chiefs. It's head coaches section has a paragraph about the coaches then links List of Kansas City Chiefs head coaches as it's "see also." What about developing a head coaches section with a written paragraph about the coaches that on Texas Tech Red Raiders men's basketball in a similar fashion? Any push for GA, the main article will be hampered down with that table data. NThomas (talk) 19:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• If I were to add the women's coaches, like NMajdan suggested, would that help to satisfy 3b? NThomas (talk) 03:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Looking at NMajdan's example, I have to say no. I would have opposed that article's FLC on the same grounds I'm opposing this one now. Goodraise 16:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• So you would have opposed a 20-item list? Man, there are a lot of FLs that you'd oppose then. NThomas, I still suggest you make the changes I suggested above. Ultimately, it is up to the FL directors. They will take all supports and opposes into consideration when making their final decision. As the list stands now, I'd oppose, but again, my concerns have yet to be addressed.—NMajdan•talk 17:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

(<) Once again, it's a guess, but my sandbox experiment may show that this list can easily be incorporated into a main article without overloading it. Perhaps that's where Goodraise's 3b objection lies, rather than just a mere line-counting exercise? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

If we wanted to get technical, I could say that this article meets 3b. 3b actually has two conditions: 1) meets all requirements for a stand-alone list, 2) is not a content fork AND does not recreate material from another article AND could not be included as part of a related article. This article meets 3b1 and since it doesn't violate all of the conditions in 3b2, it passes that as well. Frankly, if this is the stance for this article, it would apply to every coaching article. I think these should be treated as groups of articles. If one violates, they all do. I'm working towards a Featured Topic of lists and if one of those lists is turned down because of 3b, I'd be very disappointed since all others passed.—NMajdan•talk 17:31, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd be disappointed too. But as I said, I'm only guessing at what Goodraise's continuing objection is based upon. Let's see what Goodraise has to say. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I could see myself opposing a 20-item list (just as much as I could see myself supporting a 5-item list). TRM is correct. I am not line-counting, not now and not in general. When I look at this article, I see an improper spin-off from the main article. When I look at List of Oklahoma Sooners head basketball coaches, I see an improper spin-off from not one, but two main articles. If we in fact wanted to get technical, then I'd have to disagree with you. The implicit ANDs in that criterion don't mean that each of its parts has to be failed for the whole to be failed, but that failing one is enough to fail the whole. Goodraise 22:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

But that is not the way 3b is written. If failing one part fails it all, then it should be rewritten to include ORs and not ANDs.—NMajdan•talk 22:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you take a look at logical conjunction. Goodraise 15:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

And it backs up my opinion. Your take on 3b2 is 0 AND 0 AND 1 which equals 0.—NMajdan•talk 15:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

No, it doesn't back up your opinion. The article states that a "logical conjunction [...] has the value true if both of its operands are true, otherwise a value of false." In this case we have three operands: A) "List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches is not a content fork", B) "List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches does not largely recreate material from another article", and C) "List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches could not reasonably be included as part of a related article". For the sake of the argument, I'll concede that A and B are true, while only C is false. That leaves us with "true and true and false", which equals false. Goodraise 16:28, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

What you just said backs up my comment. 3b2 coming out false means it satisfies the requirement. As long as any one of the three are false, then is doesn't violate 3b2. One of us is confused. I hope its you.—NMajdan•talk 16:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Lets try a different approach. List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches is not a content fork, does not largely recreate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article? Yes or no? Goodraise 18:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what you're getting at, as we have already established this. I just have a fundamental disagreement with the arbitrary 3b. This list has my support and I'll let the FL directors sort out the rest.—NMajdan•talk 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me. After all, I wasn't the one who wanted to make this technical. Goodraise 18:13, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) This issue probably requires wider discussion, so I have started a thread at WT:FLC. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:42, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Comment "List of Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coaches" sounds very clumsy. Why not "List of Texas Tech Red Raiders men's basketball head coaches"? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Well, that is the naming scheme that the football articles use. "List of <School> head <sport} coaches"—NMajdan•talk 22:24, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hmm, well it still sounds strange. "head" should be closest to avoid any ambiguity (the coach of the "head men's basketball team"?). I think perhaps all of these lists should be moved (we can discuss somewhere else where more American football editors can provide input). Dabomb87 (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, I do not oppose a change. Obviously, this article is a bit different than the football lists because of the two-word sport title ("men's basketball").—NMajdan•talk 19:24, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• Personally, I don't care, but if I were to introduce Pat Knight, I would say: Texas Tech Red Raiders men's basketball head coach vs. Texas Tech Red Raiders head men's basketball coach. I agree that if one gets moved, I think they all should be for consistency (not just the basketball lists). NThomas (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments – To start, I do believe this is a justifiable content split. When I get a chance, I'll elaborate on FLC talk. My other comments are as follows:

• "Huffman's successor, Polk Robison, lead the Texas Tech to the first NCAA tournament in 1956". Grammar needs some work here. While working on this, keep in mind that the first NCAA tournament was in 1939, not 1956.

• Poor choice in sentence structure, it now reads: Huffman's successor, Polk Robison, led Texas Tech to their first NCAA tournament appearance in 1956 NThomas (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• Since you don't use the abbreviation AP more than once in the lead, you can just remove it and use Associated Press Poll. Also, should "Coaches' Polls" be singular? I'm pretty sure there was only one.

• Fixed both. NThomas (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 12:23, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the review! NThomas (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:00, 12 March 2010 [8].

---

List of Watford F.C. players

Nominator(s): WFCforLife (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list status as I believe it meets the criteria, and it has received a review. Discussion about the linking (or not) of players is likely to come up, and indeed I invite it, although I ask reviewers to read my comments on the matter at the peer review. WFCforLife (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Disclosure: I'm in the wikicup. WFCforLife (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment from Cptnono I am already a fan of the nominator's work and this list is great. I do want to make some comments to make sure there are not any loose ends before supporting:

• Wikipedia standards and what is best for the reader can create a gray area that are not always easy to work with. The notes are perfect in providing the information while still hitting aspects like WP:FLAG. Meeting the requirements of WP:ATHLETE is another beast that has been tamed in my opinion. Overall the layout is good and the information is thorough. Alt text, dablinks, and altviewer all check out.
• The first paragraph is a good overview of the club while the second gets into the players. Should there be a little bit more about players in the first paragraph since this is a list of footballers? Please disregard if the current format is standard for lists.

• My understanding from doing reviews and from previous nominations is that we should start by setting the scene for a complete novice. A brief outline of the league history is somewhat relevant to the players- making 50 appearances in 1977 could be considered a somewhat different achievement to making 50 appearances in 1983. It's not this list's place to make that judgement, merely to give the reader an opportunity to make that sort of distinction, if they deem it relevant.

• Cool.

• The lead might be underlinked for someone who is not English or not a fan. Consider wikied pipelinks to the game During WWI or the English league system.

:*I've linked the English league system. I'm sure the average reader will know what the First World War refers to without the need for a link.

• Oops. I missed the league system. I meant Association football during World War I up above not the war but that might be bordering on overlinking.

• Do the images need summary tables? I recall someone mentioning a proper description for images to meet featured criteria.Cptnono (talk) 10:37, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• I think you may be talking about flags. There should be a key if is used, but it's not required if Turkmenistan is spelt out (or has been previously spelt out). WFCforLife (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Sorry I wasn't clear. A couple of the images do not have Template:Information. File:AndyHess2009.jpg is a example. It has a summary that might be sufficient but I am under the impression that the template is standard.Cptnono (talk) 23:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• I admit to knowing very little about the template. But judging by Awadewit and Eubilides' comments here, I don't think they're compulsory. WFCforLife (talk) 02:02, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from The Rambling Man "1939–1945, when competitive football was suspended, " suspended as a result of? Done. "The club were also in the top division" perhaps "The club played in the top division" or "The club played in the highest tier of English football.."? I think an "also" is necessary, to reinforce that the Premier League is the top division. Hopefully my rewording has addressed this. "is the club record for an individual player" "for goals scored by an individual..."? Done. Should "most used" be hyphenated? Done. † and ‡ meanings are inconsistently full stopped. Corrected. Where are all † referenced? After being advised by both Brian and Struway that it was unnecessary, I've removed it altogether. Could link player-manager? Done. Remove spaces between text and superscript notes. I added the spaces to help the table render better at lower resolutions. If you still believe I should remove them I'll be happy to do so. Picky, but I would have thought DR Congo should sort ahead of Denmark as it's really Democratic Republic of Congo, isn't it? I've renamed the country :) I assume all unlinked players only played entirely non-WP:ATHLETE careers? Correct, with the exception of the six unlinked players who played during or after 1921. They are not linked because it would be impossible for me to guess the appropriate article name, and therefore a redlink could cause more harm than good. I would prefer Notes to be the column heading rather than N. B. Done, and removed redundant part of key. Holton's 104 being asterisked and purple is slightly misleading as this itself isn't the record... do you see what I mean? Moved to notes (same for Mummery). "first or second world wars" not capitalised? Done. Note 11 has no full stop, the others (of a similar construction) do. Be consistent. Done. Note 18 has no reference. Done. Refs 14 and 17 need accessdates. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC) I'm moving away from using accessdates without good reason, as a result of issues raised here. The question is whether the accessdate helps the reader. In cases where an author, date of publication and publisher is given, I don't think an accessdate helps. On the other hand, where the author is unknown and/or the content is subject to change, the accessdate is clearly important. WFCforLife (talk) 18:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC) Responded to most points, I'll have a think about the rest. WFCforLife (talk) 18:32, 26 February 2010 (UTC) I think that's all of them. WFCforLife (talk) 01:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Struway2

Resolved comments from Struway2 (talk) 09:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

First, I did start making notes towards commenting at the peer review (would have been the first one I'd done in ages), got distracted, and ended up not doing so, for which I apologise. Much of this stuff could have been sorted there, but it's not your fault that your peer review only got one reviewer, albeit a good one. * In the references, The Independent newspaper should be italicised. If you're using {{cite news}}, just change it from publisher= to work=, or to newspaper=, which I discovered recently and which avoids the confusion between works and publishers. Done. Thanks for the tip. Perhaps you could tone down the red a bit. It says at WP:COLOUR that blue on red can be problematic, and I can confirm from personal experience that for at least some of your colour-blind readers, the lack of contrast between wikilink blue and that density of red makes the text damn near invisible :-) Swapped with the green, which seemed fine judging by comments below. Ashley Young has 7 international apps, not 6. Fixed, and sourced. As with most of the problems with the game, I blame the FA ;) I'm not sure about the green players. Is their having played pro/semipro football this season all that relevant? And even if so, how are you sourcing it? Soccerbase will verify them playing in the Football League and probably Conference, but won't do players playing abroad, or below Conference National. I personally felt it was somewhat relevant, but as Brian made the very same point, I guess I'm in the minority. "Professional or semi-professional" was largely aimed to get around whether Conference teams are pro or not. I've removed the classification altogether as it was unverified, and recycled the color to address your point above. The blacklinked notable players, Joe Johnson, Tom Davies, Jim McLaren etc, should be redlinked. I read your comment at the PR, but a title like Joe Johnson (Watford footballer) would be justifiable, in the absence of other disambiguators, and if someone created their article at a different title, it's easy enough to change the one used here. I tend to find that finding an article from scratch is easier than merging/deleting articles. The simplest solution will simply be to create those first, so I'll make those my priority for the next week. Don't really see any reason why that would be any more of a problem for these few than for any other of the redlinked players. People are possibly more likely to create an article for a different person at one of the straightforwardly-named redlinks. But I see you've linked them anyway... Have you checked the Southern League players for possible notability through playing for other clubs? I've now redlinked all players who have been at Football League clubs, according to the Watford Who's Who. Admittedly, that's not a guarantee that none of the other players meet WP:ATHLETE through playing for clubs without the author's knowledge, nor is it a guarantee that all of the redlinked ones played for their Football League club(s). Nonetheless, redlinked and delinked players tally with the information used to compile the list, which I think is appropriate. Couple more things (sorry). No problem! On accessdates, per your reply to TRM, where the content is subject to change, the accessdate is important. You may be unaware that the BBC are one of the worst offenders for refactoring pages with or without updating the date of last change, so any BBC page will need an accessdate. Done. I might archive the BBC links later anyway, just in case they decide to pull older content offline at some point in future. * Should the Ross Jenkinses not be listed just as Ross Jenkins, if they weren't actually known by their full name? Shortened, and removed the footnote.

• The sourcing leaves quite a bit to be desired. I'm happy with the book source covering the players up to 1996, and with Soccerbase for club appearances and goals thereafter. However, for players whose career runs after 1996, there aren't any sources for international appearances, or for specific playing positions, e.g. Helguson as Centre forward / Right wing where Soccerbase just has Forward. Ross Jenkins the younger is noted as an England youth international, but the note [nb 7] is referenced to the 1996 book, when Mr Jenkins would have been starting school. Similarly Scott Loach as an under-21 international, where note [nb 4] is referenced to the book.

• International sourcing should be fine now, for both senior and youth players. Helguson is a case in point (he played right wing under Vialli and the start of Lewington's reign, and that does need sourcing). Where we're giving multiple positions this should be sourced (and if it cannot be sourced, removed), but if a player has one position I think it's unnecessary. WFCforLife (talk) 23:07, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• One of the many disappointments of the FA's website is that they can't provide proper profiles of their international players, the way the Scandinavian countries and others do, giving full details of appearances at all levels. It'd make life much easier... I might have added individual references for the under-21s to the notes column, rather than expecting the reader to click on the string of links at the end of note [nb 4] to see which one applied to a particular player. As to positions, possibly one reason why previous player lists stuck to the basic GK/DF/MF/FW positions was to avoid sourcing/OR issues.

• I take your point that I should go along with the sources, and have therefore changed post-1996 ones accordingly.

• You raise a wider issue though. For an editor to call wing halves "defenders" or "midfielders" involves a degree of original research. Some would consider them analogous to modern day attacking full backs, others that they were midfielders, others still that it depends on the formation a "wing half" played in. Similarly, deciding whether wingers are midfielders or forwards can depend on the system used ("The Pyramid"/2-3-5 vs 4-4-2), or even on what an individual decided to call a 4-5-1/4-3-3, which can depend on whether the writer wants to criticise or praise the team fielding that formation. For these reasons, I don't think I can roll the change out for other players. Unless the sources of previous lists made the decisions for them, they were wrong to ignore these issues. WFCforLife (talk) 03:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• Have no problem with that. And the wider point is one I had considered, particularly in relation to centre-halves of the past. If someone were to write an article called Half-back (association football), I'd be more comfortable with linking centre-halves to that, than calling them the anachronistic centre-backs. Struway2 (talk) 09:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• Even if that's all sorted, I'm going to have to Oppose on the number of redlinks. Although I've never understood what redlinks have to do with "visual appeal", much preferring the concept of "usefulness" which disappeared when the criteria were revised, current criterion 5(a) says there should be a "minimal number" of them, and 40% of the notable players (~100 out of ~250) isn't minimal. I think your stated approach of creating the player articles gradually, going for quality rather than speed, is absolutely right, and would respectfully suggest you bring this list back when the number is rather closer to "minimal". (Disclaimer: depending on what other reviewers think about "minimal" redlinks, obviously; wouldn't be the first time people have disagreed with me.....) I know saying "there's no hurry" doesn't always go down well, but there is no hurry. And sorry again for not having got to the PR. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• That's some fantastic feedback, which I'll attempt to action over the next few days.

• With regards to criteria 5a, which I will get my claws into below on the FLC talk page, 100 (~80 by the time a three week review runs its course) of 340 items are redlinked. ~70% of the players are bluelinked or correctly delinked, and fewer than 10% of the total links are red. The statistics are all a matter of interpretation. All I will say is that 70% is a large majority, while less than 10% would be a minimal proportion, depending on interpretation of 5a. Argument against criterion itself moved to WT:FLC.WFCforLife (talk) 21:21, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• In my day, we weren't allowed redlinks, at least we knew where we were with that :-) but I'll leave the procedural arguments for those who like that sort of thing. If my interpretation of "minimal" differs from how it's understood by the community, then the directors will doubtless disregard that part of my opposition. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• I agree. Sorry about the long-winded nature of my reply. Far more important than this FLC, or even FLC itself, are suggestions that help improve our content. I really appreciate your feedback, it was excellent. Regards, WFCforLife (talk) 21:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• It's a pity you felt the need to remove the longer part of your earlier reply. Makes my response to the part that remains sound a bit sniffy, even for me..... Struway2 (talk) 07:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Dude, as someone who would is leaning heavily towards supporting you still come across OK!Cptnono (talk) 09:09, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• I haven't looked at the list myself to maintain neutrality. However, I believe the criterion was left ambiguous so that reviewer consensus could decide what constituted "minimal" in each case. Let's see what other reviewers think about the redlinks. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:00, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• This falls within the balance of both meeting protocol (which is vague in this instance) and the need to provide thorough information to the reader that I referenced up top. I personally don't have a concern with the amount of red but I am not as familiar with the history like Struway is.Cptnono (talk) 00:15, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Just for clarification of the numbers, so we're sure what we're on about. Surely criterion 5a applies to the listed items, in this case the players, not to total links. There are as I write 109 redlinked players, which is a third of the items on the list. Struway2 (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• For consistency, either all or none of your RSSSF refs should have accessdates. Also, that abbreviation should be spelt out on first use.

• Expanded the abbreviation on first use. Accessdate usage is consistent though- record appearances are subject to change, whereas past results are not. I've also corrected the title for the Northern Ireland results.

• Fair point. <rant warning>Though I do struggle with the time taken up in discussing things like the precise circumstances under which accessdates are not required, or whether citation templates are evil because they make copyediting prose more difficult, time which could be better spent in improving the encyclopedia, and discussions which generally come down to one or two editors with bees in their bonnet. A cynic might wonder if the decision to include or exclude the accessdate was original research...</rant> ;-)

• I don't know if you intend keeping the current players' appearances up to date after each match (I wouldn't, if it was me :-), but if so, you'll need to update the accessdate for Soccerbase 2009/10 in the general references list each time. It's out of synch at the moment. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing that out. Going forward, I plan to update whenever a player reaches 50 (Don Cowie is on 41 right now), at the end of a season, end of the calendar year(ish), and a few days after each international. As we've just had an international, I'll do an update on Saturday evening or Sunday (by which time I hope the Icelandic football association will have caught up), and I'll fix the accessdates then. WFCforLife (talk) 03:08, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments –

• There are a lot of redlinks in the table here. I won't oppose over it, but I'm not sure I feel comfortable supporting when so many of the notable players don't have pages. Some other editors, and I count myself among them, would have gone on a stub-creation spree before/during the nomination process. Your seeking to spend more time on each article is admirable, but unfortunately it is difficult as a reviewer to go off of anything other than the list's present condition.

• I understand. As I said previously to Stuway I'm disappointed, but if made to choose between the success/failure of this FLC, and the creation of stubs that I probably won't to return to, I'd choose failure. All I'll add is that I see your last two sentences as both an understandable interpretation and a damning inditement of 5a.

• The reason access dates have been used in references is to make finding links easier when they go dead. I normally push hard for their inclusion, but can understand leaving them off of links to printed publications, where removing the link and adding a page number leaves a perfectly valid citation. The question I have is whether these club/association pages have good archival systems or not (you'd know better than me). If there is a good chance that these pages will be gone soon, then I would suggest the access date for ease in finding a correct version. If they will stay, I won't complain too much. I do find it odd that you don't want the access dates for some of the news stories from websites, since they strike me as more likely to disappear than RSSSF pages and such.
• Prose looks very good overall, though I'm not a fan of "whilst" as a replacement for "while". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:37, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• I'll consider your other comments later. Ironically the plan for the next few days is to spend my wiki time this weekend creating a few articles :-) WFCforLife (talk) 23:59, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:00, 12 March 2010 [9].

---

List of awards and nominations received by 30 Seconds to Mars

Nominator(s): OK Airbag (talk) 12:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it is a great page. I used many sources and it seems that it could be on featured list.OK Airbag (talk) 12:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments No need for the full stop in the lead image caption. "The single "The Kill" is one of their most successful, as it garnered a lot of recognition." not good. Needs to be quantified (i.e. what is "most successful") and referenced. "the critical community" isn't that everyone in the world? Perhaps a rephrase. The Kill is overlinked in the lead. "as the 1st "Top..." why not "as the number one "Top..."? " is an annual awards ceremony were established in 1964" - not correct Eng and ref needed. "are an enclosure to the Fuse Fangoria Chainsaw Awards" don't understand what this means. "recognize the most beloved people of Hollywood." this is not encyclopedic. If it's a quote, make it a referenced quote, otherwise make this neutral in tone. [2][15][16][17][18][3][6] - can you make refs in numeric order? In kerrang awards, why does the band span two years? "30 Seconds to Mars retracting the Best New Artist Award at TRL Italy." - do you mean receiving? And see my comments above about alt text and full stops. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC) Done--OK Airbag (talk) 22:19, 18 February 2010 (UTC) Not quite... Image needs WP:ALT text. Ditto for all other images. Kerrang! should be linked in the lead (should be in italics). Our WP:MOS discourages use of # for "number". Plus rock is overlinked now. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC) Done. The # is essential when it is used.--OK Airbag (talk) 22:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Not done. Alt text is needed on all images (note, not captions, alt text). And please refer to Wikipedia:MOS#Number signs for advice on not using #. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Done.--OK Airbag (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Check references for incorrect use of hyphen - e.g. page ranges in Kerrang should use an en-dash, not a hyphen, and titles should use spaced en-dashes, not spaced hyphens. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC) But it is the title of the references.--79.49.179.201 (talk) 19:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC) See WP:MOSQUOTE please, with particular reference to WP:DASH. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC) I don't understand. Can you do it?--79.49.179.201 (talk) 19:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC) Done.--95.234.20.137 (talk) 22:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC) "The Bandit Rock Awards is an annual television awards ceremony broadcast live on S4C." - the wikilink to Bandit Rock suggests it's a Swedish award, but S4C is a TV station in Wales. Do they really broadcast a Swedish awards ceremony (seems unlikely) or is one of the wikilinks wrong? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC) Done.--95.234.20.137 (talk) 22:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment What are the qualifications for inclusion under the other awards and honors? Staxringold _talk^contribs 22:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Only other awards and honors.--79.46.21.193 (talk) 23:04, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:00, 12 March 2010 [10].

---

List of The Secret Saturdays episodes

Nominator(s): Twilight Helryx 21:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because after working on this for some time and comparing it with a few other similar lists, I believe that it meets the FL criteria. Twilight Helryx 21:22, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment "This is a list of episodes of The Secret Saturdays..." Featured lists don't begin like this. Please see recently promoted lists, such as List of Baccano! episodes and List of Supernatural episodes for examples of more engaging starts. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well that's odd, because the List of Yu Yu Hakusho episodes began that way. But I understand and will fix that in a second. Thanks for the comment. =) --Twilight Helryx 02:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Done [11]--Twilight Helryx 02:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Yu Yu Hakusho list was promoted more than two years ago, and standards have risen a lot since then (perhaps I should have said "Featured lists don't begin like this anymore") . Also, I removed the {{done}} template; we don't use them at FLC because they slow down load time and clutter the FLC pages. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:38, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Whoops! Sorry about that. For the FL standards, apparently they're not the only ones that have risen. ;P Anyway, is there anything else that needs fixing?--Twilight Helryx 02:40, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, as an FL director (i.e. editor who archives these discussions), I like to stay uninvolved on FLCs so that I don't have to worry about having a conflict of interest. However, if this FLC doesn't get many reviews in the next two weeks or so, I'll take a look. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Understood. Thanks!--Twilight Helryx 03:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: The citations need to be fully filled out (half are okay but half are bare URLs). Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 08:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 07:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick comments the year ranges need en-dashes per WP:DASH. Dashes fixed. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC) The refs would ideally have a minimum of accessdate, date, publisher, work and title. Done so for all except the Cartoon Network and Toonzone refs.--Twilight Helryx 03:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC) No image? Is it necessary? What should I use? The logo or a DVD cover or something else? Done--Twilight Helryx 03:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC) '60s->1960s. Done--Twilight Helryx 03:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC) "that airs on Cartoon Network in most countries and on Teletoon in Canada." ref needed. Done--Twilight Helryx 03:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC) "Saturdays search of " should that be "Saturdays' search for"? Fixed--Twilight Helryx 03:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Refs shouldn't have spaces between them and the punctuation. Done--Twilight Helryx 03:25, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed the episode prose yet, just thought I'd get you something to be getting on with. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know where to look. Could you tell me? ^^" --Twilight Helryx 03:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The list of dab links is here. FYI, the toolbox is at the right hand corner of this page. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• facepalm* that goes to show what an idiot I am. Anyway, Done.--Twilight Helryx 03:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright, I believe I've addressed all the issues brought up. If it's all right, can this be passed before Friday (Feb 26) as soon as there's enough support? Because, the deadline for Wikicup submissions is that day.--Twilight Helryx 03:29, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from J Milburn

I don't feel this article is ready to be promoted. Here are a few things that need to be worked on-

• Seem to be a number of unreferenced statements in the lead; could you please make sure everything is referenced?

Done I think...--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Image seems a little large- could it possibly be reduced?

Done--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• "Saturdays search" Apostrophe?

Done--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• "a fact that not even Zak was aware of" -> "a fact of which not even Zak was aware"

Fixed--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• "on Zak and" Who? Link to article on the character, or at least an entry on a list?

Done

• Rather than the hidden comment, can we have the fact that there are only two seasons referenced in the article?

Done: Removed comment and replaced old ref with a clearer one.--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Please add italics in the image caption.

Done

• Not wild about the references in the section headings

Done--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Random italics in references

Fixed--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• References one and two are incomplete
• The article seems to rely entirely on primary sources, most of them forum and blog posts. I'm not sure if this is generally ok for featured lists, but it's certainly something with which I would not be happy in a regular article. This is telling me just to oppose and be done with it, but my lack of familiarity with FLC is holding me back.

Well, the sources are from the show's creator, Jay Stevens. There are no others more reliable than from him.--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not actually how it works. Please read our guidelines on reliable sourcing. J Milburn (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Ref 7, "see comments" is not part of the title. If you are citing a particular comment, cite that particular comment.

Done

• Sources- Cartoon Network? What?

Done: Got rid of it.--Twilight Helryx 03:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Is there not a category for the show?

These comments come without even looking at the main body of the list (fact-checking and copyediting as appropriate). This really doesn't feel like a good FLC to me. J Milburn (talk) 12:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:15, 12 March 2010 [12].

---

List of French Open Men's Singles champions

Nominator(s): BLUE_DOG^TN 06:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it is up to the same standards the other three articles are that are FL List of Wimbledon Gentlemen's Singles champions, List of US Open Men's Singles champions, and List of Australian Open Men's Singles champions, which I was the one who got the last two up to FL status. I know that I cannot get some scores because they were not official slam tournaments, and are unsourced anywhere on the web, which means I would have to do original research for Pre-1925 tournaments. This is not allowed on wikipedia. I know their is disputed champions, which are the 1941-1945, and are only listed here as historical figures, but the slam does not recognize them as champions. The scores and runners-up for this time period are unknown!BLUE_DOG^TN 06:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• If you site grammer as your oppose tell me how to fix it, or what needs to be fixed, which if you don't do that fix it yourself.
  • Note that it's not the reviewers' responsibility to "fix" the entire article. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
    • I know that, but the last time some just kept on saying grammer for their oppose, which how am I suppose to know what grammer they are speaking about,! I will fix it if they point it out, but if they don't point it out what exactly it is I cannot fix a mystery.BLUE_DOG^TN 00:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Yes, it is often helpful if reviewers provide examples. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Quick comments

• Ilie Năstase and Robin Söderling should sort as Na... and So... repectively.

I fixed this.BLUE_DOG^TN 14:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Ah but don't remove the diacratics, it's part of the name. Instead keep them and read about and use the sortkey parameter in {{Sortname}} and use that. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Made the appropriate corrections to include the diacratics and sortable in the right places.BLUE_DOG^TN 21:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• Unfortunately there is some serious double about the Lendl photo, other images are okay.

I removed it.BLUE_DOG^TN 14:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note f needs a source that doesn't list them. You give sources that do list them but as they are disputed, you need evidence of them not being included as well.

I addressed this.BLUE_DOG^TN 14:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

• • Actually I realise this is actually in the general references. You can leave it as is if you want, but it might be useful to point the reader there in this case.
• Sourcing. What is your source for the set scores. Ref 5 doesn't give them. Ref 10 gives a few but ones such as 1891-1895 and 1904 are completely unsourced.

Can't find them, so tell me if you want me to delete them because they were here by someone else before I got here.BLUE_DOG^TN 14:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well the "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". That said I suspect with some digging you might find them. Books, is there a winners board at Roland Garros? This seems to cover 1904. Additionally, this seesm to suggest the first final was 6-3 6-2 (not 6-4). Regardless, it should be reliably sourced. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 12:58, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I will have to go to the library to check and see if I can find some sources on the score late next week, until then, I will just fix grammer errors in this article!BLUE_DOG^TN 01:48, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

What is the status on these comments? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:28, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

The information is still not verified as yet. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:46, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I've refrained from getting too involved in this review, but I'm pretty much on the same page as Rambo. I would be able to support if this were dealt with. WFCforLife (talk) 07:09, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments – "was the only one to be held at the French Open. The French Open...". Notice the repetition? To fix it, try switching the second one to "The tournament" or similar. FixedBLUEDOGTN 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC) "The lingering death best-of-twelve point's tie-break...". Remove the apostrophe from "point's". FixedBLUEDOGTN 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC) "when the tournament was reserved to members' of French tennis clubs and French nationals." Remove the apostrophe here too. FixedBLUEDOGTN 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• Note f: Few things I noticed here. A space is needed after references 4 and 5, the bold italicized DISPUTED should be toned down, and "souces" is a typo.

Fixed, I hopeBLUE_DOG^TN 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

• References 14 and 15 need publishers. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:18, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Fixed, I think, soBLUE_DOG^TN 01:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:00, 12 March 2010 [13].

---

List of Holby City episodes

Nominator(s): Frickative 02:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because, having worked on it for several months based on the format of other featured television episode lists, I feel it now meets the FL criteria. Frickative 02:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments Image caption isn't strictly correct (it's part of the set I guess but mainly just a window with the name of the hospital on it!) and the caption shouldn't have a full stop. All year ranges (as you have in the headings) should use en-dash for the separator. Got a ref for that premier date? " surgeons, nurses, other medical " - no doctors? Any reason to exclude HolbyBlue in the cross-over discussion? We tend to relink things in sortable tables rather than just their first occurrence as there's no guarantee that the linked item will be encountered first by our readers. Any particular reason why the title of each episode is in bold? I'm not sure it complies with WP:MOSBOLD. Any reason why Episode 324 is so out of order? Blank director for episode 495. I'd prefer to see the column widths remain the same from section to section. Note 2 has no ref. Date ranges in the references should use en-dashes, not hyphens. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Thank you very much for your helpful comments. I've changed the caption to: "A window pane bearing the Holby City NHS Trust name, on the Holby City set, at Elstree Studios in Borehamwood" - is this any better? Done. Added a ref from The Guardian. Added. Apologies, this was a complete oversight on my part. I've now mentioned it in the lead and "Specials" section. This should already be the case in all but the tables for the first two series. I only linked on the first occurrence there as these tables are much smaller than the others, and WP:LINK says to use repeated links in long sortable tables. That said, I don't mind changing them at all if you still think it's necessary, I just wanted to explain my rationale. Using {{Episode list}}, the titles are automatically bolded. Perhaps that's an issue to raise with the template itself? Typographical error on my part, I included two 324s instead of a 324 and a 334. It took me a while to spot that and work out what you meant, and in the interim it did lead me to correct a rather important omission. I thought at first you were asking why it aired on a Thursday rather than a Tuesday, so qualified in the lead that the show typically airs on Tuesdays, but is occasionally broadcast on different days dependent upon scheduling, and that for a period in 2007 it moved to Thursday nights, while HolbyBlue took the Tuesday timeslot. It wasn't something I had even considered when composing the article, so thank you for (however inadvertently!) prompting it. Added a TBA until full listings for the episode are released early next week. Done. Fixed. Fixed. Thank you again, that was immensely helpful. Frickative 19:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from ChrisTheDude (talk · contribs)

• "below" is spelt wrong in note 1
• I can't see where note 2 links back to, unless I'm being really thick
• What's the source for the episode titles, writers and directors? The BBC page listed in the external links doesn't seem to give this level of detail and only goes back to 2003 anyway. Is it in one of the refs that I've missed? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I've fixed the typo and note 2, which links to series 8, episode 2 but wasn't working due to a typo in the transcluded article. The episode titles, writers and directors can all be verified using the opening and closing credits of the episodes as a primary source. Is it a requirement that they also be covered in a third party source? They're given at IMDb and TV.com, though I appreciate they're not considered reliable sources. There is a BBC microsite that details them, but it only goes back as far as 2007 [14]. Frickative 09:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I've never reviewed a TV episode list before, so I'm not 100% sure on whether or not the episodes themselves are considered appropriate sourcing for the titles, writers, etc. I'll await other people's comments on this point...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:21, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:00, 12 March 2010 [15].

---

Bon Jovi discography

Nominator(s): Savvi72 (talk) 14:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I have done extreme work on it for several months to ensure it is up to FA quality. The information available is extensive and everything has been referenced. A recent peer review found very little wrong with the article and whatever problems were found have now been fixed. Savvi72 (talk) 14:25, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

• Shouldn't this rather be a featured list candidate, like all other discographies which are currently featured? Ucucha 14:34, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
• Agree with Ucucha, should be a Featured List Candidate. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry, was unaware of the different types of featured pages. It's my first time nominating an article. Thanks for shifting it! Savvi72 (talk) 14:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
• Thanks to Gimmetrow, it is now a featured list candidate. I just checked and the page has no disambiguation links, no dead external links, and good alt text. Ucucha 14:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Don't think we should have bold links, per WP:MOSBOLD. The intro line doesn't include the vast number of singles. "first appeared on the music scene" really? Or do you mean that was when they first had a charting release? "which made small impact" "a small impact"? "platinum" or "Platinum"? " smash hit " - not encyclopedic. "grammy award" that should be "Grammy Award" "As of November 2009" it's Feb 2010 now, any update? No explanation of what the en-dash means in the position cells. Estimated Sales->sales. En-dash should be used for year range. Remove space between notes and what it's noting, e.g. "the Pain" [C]" should be "the Pain"[C]" "One Wild Night Live 1985-2001" en-dash. "2×Platinum" or "2× Platinum"? be consistent. "#44." please check the WP:MOS, I believe we actively discourage the use of the hash for this. "Austria (#9)[20], Sweden (#25)[23], Japan (#37)[1] and Switzerland (#46)[24]." per above but also refs go after punctuation, not before. Refs need work: 30 is in German and doesn't cite the info needed. 41 has a spare . 40 needs a capital S for Spanish. 58 needs en-dashes. 61 has no info other than the URL/title. What makes clipland.com reliable? Plenty of hyphens instead of en-dashes being used. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Fixed! Thanks a lot for your comments/observations The Rambling Man. Everything has now been fixed with one exception; The directors of the videos "Runaway", "If I Was Your Mother" and "Wanted Dead or Alive 2003" remain unknown (although I am working to find the information). As for Clipland.com being a reliable source... It has been a source of information for not only music videos, but also TV commercials, movie trailers and short films since 1998. It is one of the largest databases of short film media on the internet and has the largest online music video database for such information. I have checked and the information on clipland.com can be verified on VH1 and MTV websites. Hopefully you can now review your initial opposing stance. Thanks again. Savvi72 (talk) 09:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Runaway has no director. Nor does If I was your mother nor does Wanted dead or alive 2003. If you can't find them then at least don't just leave the cells blank, and probably you should add a note. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC) I mentioned earlier that I added the director of "Runaway" but I have now also found the director of "If I was Your Mother". Only one more to go. I will fill in the blank cell as you mentioned. Thanks again :) Savvi72 (talk) 02:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC) Nevermind. All fixed! Savvi72 (talk) 06:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose. Chart Stats should not be used as a source. Goodraise 00:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Chart Stats is allowed as a source. It is even mentioned on the Wikipedia:Charts page. This source is also used on already featured lists such as the Madonna singles discography and the Pink discography. Despite this, I have added an extra source for the UK chart positions (but have still left Chart Stats). Thanks for taking the time to comment. Savvi72 (talk) 02:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Record charts is a style guideline. Discussing reliability of sources is not its job. Even if it was, it would be trumped by Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability. As far as I can tell, Chart Stats satisfies neither. As for the other featured lists, you're welcome to fix those as well. I'm sorry, but as long as Chart Stats is used, I'm remaining opposed. Goodraise 10:41, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Thanks for pointing out those two wiki articles. I'll give them a deeper read. I have now completely replaced the Chart Stats source with the official source I added earlier. Thanks again for taking the time to comment! Much appreciated. Savvi72 (talk) 11:14, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
• EveryHit.com only covers the top 40 places. The lower peak positions will need to be removed or sourced differently (preferably the later). Goodraise 04:08, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed using The complete book of the British charts: singles & albums as a source. The data in the book is taken from the Official UK chart from 1952 onwards. A preview of the book can be viewed using Google Books (check the citation for a direct link).Savvi72 (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Okay, but according to the citation, the book was released in 2004. Can you make sure that the 2004 box set 100,000,000 Bon Jovi Fans Can't Be Wrong is covered? Then there's the 2007 single "Lost Highway". What is the source for that? Goodraise 14:12, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
      • Ah no worries! Fixed again! Savvi72 (talk) 14:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose from Truco

General

• Everything checks out using the toolbox tools to the right.

Lead

• Billboard should be italicized in every occurrence because it is a magazine.
• Released in 1986, the album became Bon Jovi's best-selling album worldwide selling over 25 million copies. comma before 'selling'
• It reached number one in Australia, Canada and US where it spent 94 weeks in the Billboard 200 album chart, reaching 12× platinum status. -- 1)it should be the US 2)There are a variety of ways to place commas but it should have a comma after Canada in this case because the reader will not be confused as to where it spent 94 weeks on 3)'on the' not 'in the' 4)the platinum status was certified by whom?
• The follow up album to Slippery When Wet was New Jersey which shared similar global success. The album produced five top 10 hits on the Billboard Hot 100 giving Bon Jovi the record for the most top 10 singles spawned by a rock album -- Comma before which ...comma before giving...is this record still held by them?
• It produced the top 10 hit "Bed of Roses" while the title track hit number one on the Mainstream Rock Tracks. link to the title track
• The album fared better internationally than in the United States, but still managed to reach Platinum status by the RIAA. -- Be consistent with acronyms, since you used acronyms for the US beforehand, maintain that consistency. In addition, spell out the RIAA acronym.
• Following the tour of the album, the members of the band went their separate ways. --> Following the tour of the album, the group disbanded. (this also needs a source)
• It became the band's fifth and fourth consecutive number one album in Australia and UK respectively and reached double platinum in the United States. -- 1)Since you haven't mentioned the UK beforehand, it should be the United Kingdom 2)Comma before and after 'respectively' 3)Consistency with US/United States
• The success of the album was largely due to the lead single "It's My Life" which was nominated for a Grammy Award for Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group while the album itself was nominated for Best Rock Album. -- comma before while
• This record was beaten however with the band's ninth studio album Have a Nice Day in 2005. -- comma before and after however
• The title track was an international hit reaching the top 10 in Australia, Europe and UK. -- 1)Link to title track 2)comma before reaching 3)'the UK'
• Another track, "Who Says You Can't Go Home", reached number one on the US Billboard Hot Country Songs after being remixed into a country duet with Jennifer Nettles. -- the "US" isn't necessary since its a US based chart, unless other wise noted.
• The album became the first Bon Jovi album to debut at number one in the United States, making it the band's first number one album in their home-country since the late eighties. -- the second number one should be number one and remain consistent with US/United States
• Although the album achieved great success, winning them a Grammy nomination for best Pop Vocal Album,[13] the band returned to their rock roots in 2009 with their eleventh studio album The Circle. --> Although the album achieved great success, including a Grammy nomination for best Pop Vocal Album,[13] the band returned to their rock roots in 2009 with their eleventh studio album The Circle.
• The album also debuted at number one on the Billboard Hot 100, making it the band's fourth number one album in the United States. -- second 'number one' should be number one, and remain consistent with US/United States

Other charted songs

• Please Come Home for Christmas" was originally credited as a solo recording by Jon Bon Jovi when included on the Christmas compilation A Very Special Christmas 2 in 1992, but when released as a single in UK, Ireland and Europe in 1994 it was released under the band name. - 'the UK'
• The country version of "Who Says You Can't Go Home" with Jennifer Nettles peaked at #1 on the Billboard Hot Country Songs chart. -- Only BillBoard should be italicized.

Live performances

• Emdash for the empty cell.

References

• Do not link publisher that don't have links to articles on Wikipedia, for consistency.
• Link all publishers that do have articles on Wikipedia, either on every occurrence or at their first appearance.--Truco ₅₀₃ 19:51, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking the time to go through the page. Everything you have mentioned is now fixed! Savvi72 (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

• Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Oh that must be a new one because it never came up before. Thanks for that! Now fixed. Savvi72 (talk) 01:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 00:30, 11 March 2010 [16].

---

List of tallest buildings in St. Louis

Nominator(s):  fetchcomms☛ 18:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it meets the general FL criteria as well as the guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Skyscrapers/Tallest building lists. It has an appropriate lead, uses images throughout, and each entry is referenced.  fetchcomms☛ 18:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Mm40 (talk) 12:47, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose from Mm40 (talk)

• One image still needs alt text (File:Bank of America Plaza (St. Louis).jpg). Also, the alt texts can be more descriptive, but it's not that big of an issue.

Fixed the one image.  fetchcomms☛ 15:52, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• My oppose is based on the reliability of sources. Emporis is a business, so that's OK. But I still maintain that SkyscraparPage isn't reliable. Mm40 (talk) 12:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Mm40 (talk)

*FL no longer contain "this is a list of..." See recently promoted lists for examples. All images need alt text. In references, newspapers and magazines should be italicized Some slashes are spaced, other aren't You don't need to link U.S. These are just from a quick glance, so I'm not sure the list is ready right now. Mm40 (talk) 21:03, 12 February 2010 (UTC) I can get alt text and the italicizing, other minor things, etc. done, but I don't know about the rest (I suppose a lot of it is due to a lack of updates to the WikiProject guidelines page I mentioned, but I'm not entirely sure). I'll ask on the project's talk page about the other items.  fetchcomms☛ 23:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC) Alt text added, first sentence revised, newspapers italicized, slashes fixed.  fetchcomms☛ 00:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 14:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - borderline quick-fail I'm afraid, this isn't WP:PR... but comments nevertheless... Intro sentence is very odd considering this is about tall buildings, not populous cities of the US. "and is the tallest accessible structure in Missouri." if it's the tallest in the US then this is clearly obvious and doesn't need explicit statement. Image caption - what's the big arch in the picture? "second highest" hyphenate. "Overall, no buildings in either St. Louis or Missouri " why "overall"? and why not just "in Missouri" since St Louis is in Missouri? "over 8 stories" -> eight. Don't think we need to link steel. "the historic Wainwright Building, " why "historic"? "stalled shortly in the beginning of 2010 because of economic woes" grammatically poor. St Francis has no info in the stories col, why not? The arch has n/a... inconsistent with St Francis. Rank doesn't sort correctly. Many red links, anything you could do to improve the situation? Check the 24= pairing, they don't seem to have the same height. Desloge Towers really completed in 133AD? Why does Gateway Arch get smaller when measured by pinnacle height? Check ranks 3 & 4 in pinnacle height table, something's wrong. Street addresses with number ranges need en-dashes. And please make them sort properly. Don't mix date formats in the references. Ref 35 needs publisher info as a minimum. Ref 47 needs an accessdate as a minimum. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Seeing as one is no longer supposed to refer to the list itself (as most of the other lists of tallest buildings do) and that St. Louis isn't an especially large city, I'm not sure what to put in the intro (it would probably make more sense if it was the largest city in the U.S.). I've changed it to its skyline ranking instead, though. The Arch is the tallest monument in the U.S., but not the tallest building (accessible structure); I added that because it's still shorter than various antenna masts, chimneys, etc in Missouri. I think I fixed most of the minor issues, but the redlinks issue actually struck me earlier, and I hope to create most of them in a day or two (I got one so far :P). The one thing I can't figure out is why the first table only sorts correctly backwards. The Chicago list has the same issue, though apparently not the Toronto list. I'm trying to figure it out right now though.  fetchcomms☛ 21:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Just a quick response, standards have changed and a lot of the previous tallest building WP:FLs don't strictly meet our criteria. They'll be re-reviewed in due course. In the meantime, I've reviewed this specific list with the current criteria in mind. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Ah, I see. In any case, is there anything more I can do to make this list better?  fetchcomms☛ 22:30, 13 February 2010 (UTC) "89th most impressive skyline in the world" you should make it clear that this is down to one single source rating it against its own criteria. Rank still doesn't sort correctly. Continental Life building is 1ft higher than its equal counterparts. Several of this - down to the convert template? In any case, it looks too odd to be acceptable. Street address still doesn't sort numerically correctly. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:38, 13 February 2010 (UTC) The sorting is very odd, I removed the dash and note from the Arch rank and it still only sorts correctly when you sort by rank once, sort by another factor, and go back to rank--sorting by rank twice doesn't work. The measurement differences are from rounding; I think I've now changed it so the ones with different foot heights are different ranks even if they have the same metre height. Still trying to figure out the street address issue...  fetchcomms☛ 22:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Fixed the rank sorting by making 1 to 01, 2 to 02, etc. I can't fix the address--I think it's because it looks at the least number of numbers and bases on the first ones--in this case, the first 3 digits only.  fetchcomms☛ 00:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Fixed correctly by Chrishomingtang.  fetchcomms☛ 03:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Check conversions are consistent - there are two different metre heights for the Gateway Arch, there may be others... Check Continental Life Building's height, something odd going on there with where it's ranked. What's on top of the Marquette building that makes it 104 metres taller?!! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC) The arch is 630 ft, the convert template is off somehow. I fixed the continental height. The Marquette has a huge antenna: http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=12848  fetchcomms♥ 02:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 00:30, 11 March 2010 [17].

---

List of Metallica concert tours

Nominator(s): Nergaal (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC), igordebraga ≠ 01:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it fulfills the FL criteria. Similar FLs are that of Jackson, Kyle Minogue, and Nine Inch Nails. While trying to take most of the best elements from the three others, this list is this is a bit longer in terms of entries so the focus might be slightly different from the rest. Nergaal (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Mm40 (talk) 12:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

• Restarted, old version.
• Note I have restarted this nom, as the page was getting long with comments, and it was not clear what had been addressed and what hadn't. Can all reviewers please restate their opinions and list whatever concerns they have left? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose from Truco (talk · contribs)

General

• Some improvement since last nomination, but still needs work.

• Alt text, external and dab links, and contributors all check out fine.

Lead

• Kirk Hammett replaced Mustaine in 1983, while the bassist role was taken by Cliff Burton from 1982 until his death in 1986, then by Jason Newsted until 2001 and by Robert Trujillo from 2003 -- very long sentence, I would simply state this as ..was taken by Cliff Burton (1982-1986), Jason Newsted (1986-2001)...etc

• done Nergaal (talk) 04:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Since 1982, Metallica has performed all over the world, in North and South America, Europe, East and Southeast Asia,[note 1] Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and South Africa. -- all over the world is a WP:POV-ish comment, I would rephrase it as "in various parts of the world" or "in various regions of the world"

• "Varius" to me sounds like an understatement. Is "on all continents" acceptable? Nergaal (talk) 04:46, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Itslongest so far has been the "Wherever We May Roam" tour, which lasted 14 months and had over 174 concerts. -- space between Its longest, and I would believe it would be better phrased as Their longest since its a band, group collaborative type of thing.

• fixed Nergaal (talk) 04:47, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• The lead lacks still from its original nomination that I reviewed, add wording such as the amount of tours in each decade, the amount of tours in certain areas of the world, etc. [basically more information about the list itself]

• How does it look now? Nergaal (talk) 06:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tour list

• Is the gray color really necessary? I think white would go perfect as a the background and just some gray in the column areas or outline.

• A previous reviewer requested it. Personally I don't really care. Should I take it out? Nergaal (talk) 04:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Same comment from original review: Why are the notes of each tour in present tense? Like almost advertisement-like writing. They should be in past tense such as The tour consisted of so and so.. not The tour consists of so and so...

• For whatever reason I thought the other nominator took care of this. Anyways, I changed all the instances to past and if I missed any let me know. Nergaal (talk) 04:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• Why exactly are some entries in the number of shows column as >67, does this mean the real amount is not known or what?

• Not sure why that was like that; I removed it and put in the correct exact number. Nergaal (talk) 04:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• You may as well rename the Dates column to Dates and location.

• Did but pluralized it. Nergaal (talk) 04:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• The locations should be more elaborate or get their own column if possible, because World Tour can mean a lot. Their is a lot of inconsistency, such as USA, UK, Europe. Another thing is that the UK and USA should be spelled out before you use the acronym form. The same inconsistency is in with the Supporting Acts.

• You are right. For consistency should I just stick to continents even though say only USA is visited? For the supporting acts I removed the locations part and added a note instead as it really hard to be consistent in the case of the earlier tours. Nergaal (talk) 04:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• The column for notes should be explained somewhere as to what it includes, ie. summary of tour or other relevant notes.

• Ok, but I have no idea how can I do that. In the case of TV episodes list, there is no such note for the plot entry just below each episode; how is that different from this? Nergaal (talk) 04:37, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

References

• Link all publishers or don't link them at all, such as you have with Yahoo!--Truco ₅₀₃ 23:31, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

• I've tried to link the first instance of a publisher. Have I missed linking anything (besides Metallica.com)? Nergaal (talk) 04:41, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

• I did a copyedit to the lead, to avoid the hassle of writing down everything here. In addition, I would seek a copyedit of the notes columns of each entry because some of the writing is non-professional, such as 'North American leg' -> 'North American portion', or 'secret gig' -> 'private gig'. In addition, you actually missed MTV as a linked publisher.Truco ₅₀₃ 02:07, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 00:30, 11 March 2010 [18].

---

Vladimir Horowitz discography

Nominator(s): Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) and Etincelles ^(talk) 11:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel that it meets the criteria and also has many references to prove its notability Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 11:39, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comments - Check External links, and ALT text. Why don't any of the references have any accessdates? Afro (Its More Than a Feeling) ^{- Afkatk} 22:46, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

• Done Etincelles ^(talk) 07:50, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

• Additional Comments - Most of the refs in place for the album titles have a space, remove the space. If dates cannot be found the Recording dates (as example for the Horowitz Plays Chopin, Vol. 2), then it should be specified that the date is Unknown. Some of the dates I notice such as the Release date on Horowitz At the Met don't comply with WP:DATE. I notice you link some Record Labels but don't link others, I would feel due to the scale of the table that all Record Labels should be linked. The Top I feel needs to be expanded to fit the scale of the table. Just a query should the composers listed be linked? The first listing of the RCA label should be abbreviated as its abbreviated many times, also you list in the Overview "1928–1959: RCA Victor Red Seal" and then list "1975–1983: RCA Red Seal" just a few rows down, which spelling is it? Afro (Its More Than a Feeling) ^{- Afkatk} 21:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comments
  • Why just the one nominator listed? This article appears to be a collaborative effort and more than one person should gain the credit when it reaches FL status.
  • It is probably worth mentioning Horowitz's nationality in the first sentence.
  • Its fair enough to set a limit on the scope of the discography and keeping to commercially available, non-copyright infringing recordings in modern media makes sense to me. However I think it is worth identifying which performances of works that he recorded more than once appear on discs that do not claim to be complete in some way. http://web.telia.com/~u85420275/alphabetical.htm and the accompanying chronological list allow you to identify when performances were recorded and http://www.vlhorowitz.net/ contains similar information in a database searchable by composer. The DG site also provides good information on the dates and contents of their recordings on their website. I'm not sure that Sony provide so much information online but at least some of their box sets do have other full details on the CD slips. (I'm thinking of a big Mendlessohn set here not of a Horowitz one Im afraid.)--Peter cohen (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
    • Having looked at the discogs guidelines I can see that they are not enthusiastic about the listing of the works that appear on a disc. However my instinct as a collector is that I want to know which recordings appear in a particular package. The example I often give to friends is about how Beethoven's 5th+Karajan+Berlin Phil+DG is not a unique identifier of performances and therefore if I see a bargain box that includes this combination I want to know whether it duplicates my collection or not. Therefore I suspect that there may be the potential of Horowitx having multiply recorded the same work with the same company over a epriod of 20 years. Do you know that it is not the case that there are ambiguities in the box?--Peter cohen (talk) 14:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
      • To whoever closes this: Given that I'm probing a point that asks for more detail than in the Discogs guideline then this shouldnt be a reason to reject the candidate.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Most of the requests have now been finished, can the article be re-reviewed? Etincelles ^(talk) 21:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Clearly alot of work has been put into this, but this just does not appear to be up to the standards of FL discogs, specifically the standards of MOS:DISCOG. I recognize that this is a little bit different than most of the pop-music orientated discographies we nominated here, but there's still alot that could be improved and a lot that could be borrowed from the more standard discography styles. However, the nail in the coffin in my opinion is the unreliable sources provided. Discogs and IMDB are not considered reliable, since the content is user-generated. Also, Amazon.com and iTunes should ideally be avoided, since it is a retailer and not an encyclopedic source of information. Drewcifer (talk) 22:14, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Although, if you look at this page, it is a featured list but nowhere near up to the standard of this article as it is much less sourced and has less information. Also, although references such as Amazon.com and iTunes have been used, the article is backed up by general references from which the information was originally obtained--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 22:41, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

• Amount of information and number of citations are not an indicator of a good article/list. Appropriate information and well-chosen citations are, so I don't think your comparison to the Lang Lang discography holds much water. That, and see WP:WAX. So, like I said, take a look at MOS:DISCOG as far as style goes, and WP:V as far as citations go. Drewcifer (talk) 12:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I have began to change the references to Allmusic, if most of the albums are referenced to this will the article still stand a chance? Etincelles ^(talk) 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Allmusic is definitely preferable in most cases, so I'd say that's a very good step in the right direction. However, I do have some qualms with some of the rest of the sources, namely the "The Vladimir Horowitz Website". What makes this site WP:RS? Is this a fanpage or an official page? I couldn't find any evidence on the page that made me confident in its reliability, but I didn't dig very deep. Drewcifer (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"The Vladimir Horowitz Website" is a fan page, do you suggest it is removed as a reference? Etincelles ^(talk) 22:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

All references to Discogs have been removed. Etincelles ^(talk) 10:29, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Improvements have surely been made, but many problems (which I've already mentioned) still stand. WP:RS is still a problem, as is general style-things (column widths, amount of detail, etc, per MOS:DISCOG). So for now I'll still have to stick with my oppose. Drewcifer (talk) 23:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 14:51, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Lead is too short, I'd expect it to summarise the article adequately but in some level of detail. Right now it's just a couple of sentences... Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) alt text - "smartly dressed man" is POV - you need to describe what he's wearing. Last sentence of lead repeats "recorded" too quickly for elegant prose. I think you could incorporate that bullet point list of labels easily into prose. Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Why is 78RPM so capitalised? "all-Chopin, all- Scriabin, etc." spare space there, and I'm not keen on "etc." Seven paras in the Overview, many of which could be merged. Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) what's SHM? Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Album Title -> title, Recording Date(s)-> date(s) etc. Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Why is the Recording date(s) col unsortable? Now sorts incorrectly. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) I would expect that many of the pieces recorded by Horowitz could be linked i.e. they have articles of their own, e.g. Piano Sonata No. 10 (Mozart) Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) E flat or E-flat (etc) be consistent. Spaced or unspaced slashes, be consistent. Why some cells blank under Recording Date(s)? Still outstanding. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2010 (UTC) "recorded at different stages of Horowitz's life." isn't this obvious? He wouldn't have been able to record them all at the some "stage" of his life... IMDB is usually not considered a WP:RS. What's the pedigree of "mayslesfilms.com"? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:37, 13 February 2010 (UTC) Although these points seem valid and reasonable: Lead is too short, I'd expect it to summarise the article adequately but in some level of detail. Right now it's just a couple of sentences... Seven paras in the Overview, many of which could be merged. what's SHM? Album Title -> title, Recording Date(s)-> date(s) etc. Why does the Recording date(s) col not function correctly? I would expect that many of the pieces recorded by Horowitz could be linked i.e. they have articles of their own, e.g. Piano Sonata No. 10 (Mozart) Why some cells blank under Recording Date(s)? Are you going to address these? The Rambling Man (talk) 11:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Yes, we are currently adding wikilinks--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 11:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC) I feel that this could be compromised: I think you could incorporate that bullet point list of labels easily into prose because I think that the layout looks more effective when the list is bullet pointed and also the information is clear and easy to obtain. Therefore, I feel that this section does not need to be changed Also, what does this mean? Album Title -> title, Recording Date(s)-> date(s) etc. Date shouldn't be capitalised. Title shouldn't be capitalised. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC) Thanks--Pianoplonkers (talk • contribs) 09:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC) All issues now fixed. Etincelles (talk) 21:15, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Weak Oppose from Truco

General

• Dabs and external links check out fine.
• You have only 89 edits to the article while User:THD3 has 160 edits andUser:Etincelles 871 edits. Please notify these editors of this nomination.

• Etincelles is listed as a co-nominator. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

General

• Remove the first comma in the first sentence no need for it.
• He stopped recording for RCA in 1959 and between 1962 and 1973 recorded with Columbia Masterworks, now known as Sony Masterworks. -- comma needed after 1959
• In 1975 Horowitz returned to RCA, with which he recorded a series of live recitals. -- comma after 1975

Overview

• These recordings were made on 78rpm disks. -- a link to rpm would be useful
• "RCA's London based affiliate." -- endash needed between London and based to merge both words
• WP:OVERLINK of LP album
• In 1975, Horowitz returned to RCA Victor, then called RCA Red Seal with Victor being removed (it was reinstated in the 1980s). -- the whole name change is not necessary to note, just In 1975, Horowitz returned to RCA Victor, now called RCA Red Seal.
• He made a series of live recordings until 1982. During this period, Columbia also repackaged their Horowitz recordings with reissues including the named Beethoven Sonatas, multiple-LP sets of Chopin, and so forth. - the last part of that sentence needs rewording for a better understanding of what is being said.
• In addition, several smaller labels have put out CDs made from pirate recordings from the 1960s onward. -- avoid words like 'put out' and use 'released' instead.
• Don't start off sentences with "Also", its informal.
• "does not contain 78rpm, LP, Cassette, or 8-track tape releases." why doesn't it?

Video releases

• What verifies the prose ?
• There is no other info on the 1993 entry? Like the other ones?

General question

• Was any of his works given awards?--Truco ₅₀₃ 19:27, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I have done what you wanted, thanks for all of your comments. Horowitz did receive many awards, see: Vladimir Horowitz#Awards and recognitions. Etincelles ^(talk) 12:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Mm40 12:57, 8 March 2010 [19].

---

List of FC Barcelona players

Nominator(s): Sandman888 (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list: it was already a decent list, and borrowing from List of Arsenal players I've applied that layout to the Barcelona article. As of now, I don't see any substantial differences between the two, and it meets the FL criteria. Cheers! Sandman888 (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment

• The lead is too short
  • Longer
• Sorting for name column doesn't work properly; you will need to use {{sortname}}
  • Done
• Country names should accompany the flags; not everyone recognize them
  • Done
• Please link all the positions
  • Done
• Boldface should not be used as an indicator per WP:BOLDFACE
  • Disagree. That seems to be adressed at text, not lists. I don't see why italics wd be better.
    • Well, this still needs to be done to satisfy the WP:MOS, which applies to all articles. If you dislike italics, you can use other indicators, such as symbols.—
      • Done, italics it is.

Chris!_c/t 23:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

• Empty cells need emdashes
  • emdashes really needed? It doesn't look better that way.
• This list is poorly referenced. The notes are not sourced
  • More notes

—Chris!_c/t 03:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:06, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

;Comments "For a list of all Barcelona players, see Category:FC Barcelona footballers" - poor wording, as the category does not list ALL Barcelona players Done First paragraph is far too short at only two sentences, and is alo unreferenced Done "FC Barcelona is one of only three clubs never to have been relegated from La Liga" - not referenced ....nor is the rest of that sentence Done No reason for capital S on senior in the key Done Why is only Puyol's surname shown in the image caption? Also there's no need for a comma after his name Done Some flags still do not have country names by them Done Jesus Antonio de la Cruz sorts under A, that doesn't seem right to me Done Notes are not referenced Done "Barcelona's record goalscorer in Spanish Cup." - should be "the Spanish Cup" Done "Segarra won two First Division titles, three spanish cup" - should be "three Spanish Cups" Done "Ramallets is Barcelona's record of Zamora's trophies." - what does this mean? who/what is Zamora? Done "Luis Suarez is the first spanish and Barcelona's player to win the ballon d'or." - Spanish should have a capital S, Ballon d'Or should also have capitals and you need to either wikilink it or explain what it is, not everyone will know Done "José Vicente Sánchez won one First Division titles" - no need for the s on the end of titles if it was just one, this occurs in several other notes too Done "Eto'o score the fastest hat-trick in Barcelona's history." - should be "Eto'o scored....." Done Images do not have alt text Every image should have alt text, unless the image is purely decorative and does nothing when you click it. I see the images as purely decorative. That is not correct, the images are not "purely decorative" and definitely need alt text Alt text added Please read WP:ALT to see the sort of thing that should be included and not included in alt text. Putting "Carlos Puyol playing for Barcelona" will not help a visually impaired person imagine what the image looks like..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Visually helpful alt text added. That's spot on, and the one about Romario definitely made me chuckle :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Hope this helps -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC) Thanks a bunch for comments! I only need a script that make all of the quotation marks into quotation marks, so countries will be left sorted. Sandman888 (talk) 09:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC) All done now! Sandman888 (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Lead is too short and concentrates on Barcelona (the club) rather the players, and this list is about the players. You have one sentence about the players in the lead, not enough. Changed lead If the original sort order is "by career" then something's not quite right - try sorting by career and you'll see the initial list isn't in the right order. Done! Players who didn't captain the club - the en-dash should sort as a zero so that in descending order you get the most recent captain first. Help on how to appreciated! Put {{hs|0}} before each dash -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC) Done (doesn't seem to change anything) Are "current players" referenced anywhere? Yes, at template in bottom, and in key. Position - this is a sortable table so link every instance of thing that are linkable. Done. Since when was Romario "slightly obese", even in that photo? Done. Notes need to be referenced. Done References should be placed after punctuation where possible. Done "(inflation adjusted)." prove it. Done You obviously don't need FC Barcelona as a see also. Done Bare URLs in references, no thanks, please use an appropriate template. Done Presumably the bullet point list of refs are specific despite being listed with the general refs? Done The Rambling Man (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment - I'll see what the rest of the community come up with before I re-review the whole list. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Further comments

• There are wikilinks to Cesar Rodriguez and Luis Suarez, which are disambiguation pages, these need to be fixed to point to the correct article -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Done
• No need to Wikilink the players' names again in the notes. Also, some of the notes use the player's full name but some just their surname, please be consistent and either use full names for all of them or just surnames for all of them
  • Surnames done.
  • I see no harm in incl. wikilinks once more, you might look up the Puyol note and then want to go to his mainpage after checking out the note.
• Note 18 needs the author, publisher, and page number adding -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
  • Done - Author, publisher incl. I thought the DOI-bot cd do this stuff, but no.

Drive by comment - Like the Rambling man, I'll see how other reviewers receive this list before deciding whether to do a full review. This FLC may give you a few other ideas for improvement. The two things that struck me straight away were duplicate references (for instance the "Individual records" and "Mythical Players - Joan Gamper"), and I can't see what is referencing non legendary, non-current players. WFCforLife (talk) 03:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• • References done

Oppose as innacurate. The referencing for these players and the statistics do not tally at all. I did a sample of three players who fall into the bracket of non legendary and non current:

• Abelardo Fernández- On this list he is marked as having played from 1994 until 2002, with 256 appearances and 17 goals. The reference says that he only played until 1999, made 196 appearances and scored 15 goals.

• Jon Andoni Goikoetxea- It took a little while to find him. Once I did, it was very much opposite problems to those I found with Fernández. On this list he played from 1988 until 1994, making 173 appearances and scoring 10 goals. In the source his career only started in 1990, yet he played 237 games and scored 15 goals. Quite an achievement in four seasons.

• Eulogio Martínez- Wikipedia: 162 apps, 111 goals. The source: 254 apps, 174 goals. While trying to find out whether this guy was a legend, I stumbled across evidence that this does not tally with the legends reference either.

• Luis Enrique- Here: 300 apps, 109 goals. Legends site: 354 games 123 goals.

Given the scale of the discrepancies, there is no way that I can trust this information. And given that some stats are higher and others lower than the sources, I can't put it down to differing information, such as a source only recording league appearances. I checked a total of five players, so I suspect that these issues are the tip of the iceburg. WFCforLife (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Done. List does no longer incl. non-current, non-legends as no reliable information can be found.
    • Hang on, you're now saying that the list includes all current players plus "official legends"? Apart from the fact that that's not how any other featured "list of XXXXX F.C. players" works, it doesn't even seem to be correct - where are Chygrynskiy, Maxwell and Milito.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
      • As far as I can tell there's no official policy on how these lists works, and traditions does not make for the best list. The list is made to suit the quality of available sources. I didn't include the rest of the squad until I had some feedback on whether to operate on such a point as wasted time is time wasted. Sandman888 (talk) 09:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Oppose on scope and sourcing.

• The name "List of FC Barcelona players" implies a list of all Barcelona players, though longstanding convention permits a cutoff point at a manageable size, often those players with at least 100 first-team appearances. "Official legends" would be a perfectly acceptable scope for a featured list, but such a list should be named to reflect that scope: something like "List of FC Barcelona Official Legends". The lead section needs to clearly define the scope and inclusion criteria of the list, and then the list needs to stick to that definition. What we can't do, is construct a list whose scope depends on what sources are readily available on the internet.
• On sourcing, as User:WFCforLife has suggested above, very many of the player stats are not supported by the cited sources. The key states that the stats are for all competitions; as far as I can tell, BDfutbol's stats are for league competition only.
• Might I respectfully suggest you withdraw the nomination, then decide on an explicit scope for a list, create and source it exactly according to that scope, with no omissions and no extras, and then perhaps ask for a peer review before you re-submit. There's no hurry... In terms of layout, this list is fine, the only thing I might do differently is have a references column rather than having the reference in with the player's name. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Nvm. I hereby withdraw the nomination Sandman888 (talk) 11:54, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Withdrawal Per Sandman888's request, I'm archiving this nomination. Mm40 (talk) 12:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:23, 4 March 2010 [20].

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List of Governors of Maine

Nominator(s): Designate (talk) 05:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it's stable and of appropriate quality. Designate (talk) 05:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

• Restarted, old version.
• Note I have restarted this nom, as the page was getting long with comments, and it was not clear what had been addressed and what hadn't. Can all reviewers please restate their opinions and list whatever concerns they have left? Dabomb87 (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Still Support. Reywas92^Talk 22:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - images lack alttext —Chris!_c/t 19:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
• I know this isn't peer review, but seeing as how FLC has promoted a dozen of these lists already, it seems FLC is being pushed to decide whether or not three major format changes are viable:
  1. Should we switch from using the terms (i.e. # of times elected) column, which is always populated and allows for a singular clearing house for footnotes, but can inflate governors with 1-year terms versus the more popular recent 4-year terms; or use the new style proposed in this one, with a Term column (i.e. one for each gubernatorial term, which may have been shared among governors) and a separate notes column which is not always populated, and may artificially widen the rows for repeat governors but, on the other hand, does give a slightly more accurate view of time in office? Personally I rather like the idea of the Term column, but I also like Terms, and wonder if the shortcomings of Term outweigh its usefulness.
  2. This one's less major, but it was proposed in the last FLC near the end: Should the Other Offices table have a separate column for House and Senate, or just include all those in the text column? The current version of this list uses the latter.
  3. Much less major, but the Party column is 2nd; in the other featured lists, its 4th, after the term dates.
  • All in all I withhold voting until others state their opinion. The list is quality either way, but I don't want to be the swing vote in case there's a disagreement on these two major changes. --Golbez (talk) 06:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
    • If all the other FLs have party fourth, then I prefer it to be fourth. For the offices held, I don't mind. For the terms, I prefer this artcle's Term. Reywas92^Talk 02:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

• Closing note I am archiving this as unsuccessful as there is no consensus to promote even after restarting; there are still unresolved issues and the nominator has not commented here or edited the list in nearly a month. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:19, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 22:16, 2 March 2010 [21].

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List of Slipknot concert tours

Nominator(s): Mephiston999 (talk) 00:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it now meets FL criteria and all major issues from the previous nomination have now been fixed and it was very close to passing in the previous nomination with many users Supporting.Mephiston999 (talk) 00:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Is this a joke? There were three opposes and only one vote for support. Many to you means yourself plus a vote? Plus, the list still has stupid formatting which I was planning on fixing over the weekend (surprisingly you nominated this FLC 10 mins or so after that comment). Just to give an example, "supporting tours" is a very inappropriate name as it has other tours that are not part of the world ones also, and instead, doesn't even mention all the actual tours "supporting" the world tours. I suggest quick fail/withdrawn for the sake of the article. Nergaal (talk) 01:21, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Correction - 2 Supports by Mephiston himself and some dude called Terrance and Phillip, who did not explain any reasoning for supporting. Afro (Its More Than a Feeling) ^{- Afkatk} 03:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Constructive comments are generally preferred. bring up clear issues and they shall be addressed.Mephiston999 (talk) 03:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Afro: that is what I said: a single vote (i.e. no reasoning) and the Mephisto vote doesn't count since he is the one saying "many users" supported. Mephisto: this is constructive, as not rushing (i.e. I said I will take it over the weekend) helps actual reviewers on polishing not on not bothering with reviewing. And speaking citing instructions, you should probably see some more developed instructions at FAC where it says "If the article is archived, and not promoted, the nominator may not nominate any article for 2 weeks unless given leave to do so by a delegate; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a delegate will decide whether to remove it". Nergaal (talk) 04:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

• Have the other significant contributors been consulted? FYI, these are the changes since the previous FLC closed. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
  • The list has a "todo" template on the talkpage which actually describes several problems with this article (see below), yet it is nominated for FL. Also, most of those changes since the previous FLC were done by me, not by a nominator hurrying to fix to issues. Nergaal (talk) 16:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Stubs : Try to bring all Slipknot tour articles to GA

• Image looks good. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 01:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Comment

This list has less than 10 items - per 3b because this "can reasonably be included as part of a related article." NThomas (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how it doesn't meet the requirements for stand-alone list. It is not a content fork, does not largely recreate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article. Furthermore, having less than 10 items doesn't mean anything. The list gives enough information, and also, no one can help the fact that there are less than 10 tours by Slipknot. CrowzRSA ^{16:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)}

I think this is not FL yet for other reasons. But the items number I don't think it is right: if you check more closely, the three world tours actually form a list of 20 or so entries; they could be expanded into distinct entries but I think this looks better. Nergaal (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

If you count the others, then I withdraw my oppose vote. NThomas (talk) 02:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:57, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
  • Fixed. Mephiston999 (talk) 00:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 18:56, 1 March 2010 [22].

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List of hydroelectric power stations

Nominator(s): Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 16:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because: I believe this list now meets all points in the FL criteria, (See also: First nomination). Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 16:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose - there cannot and should not be any "citation needed" tags in featured content. All of these absolutely must be dealt with before promotion. There are also a lot of primary sources, which aren't great; secondary sources are preferred per WP:RS and WP:V. Concern with the lead sentence from the last FLC was also not dealt with. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see my comment below. Thanks. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 01:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose / quick fail per KV5: you nominated a list with 27 "citation needed" tags and still think that the list meets all FL criteria? Seriously? Sorry, FLC is not peer review, nor will FLC reviewers find sources for you. (OK, it's not peer review, but you need to (a) complete the references, not just give the webpage title (you need publisher, date, accessdate, format if pdf, etc); (b) make the notes column unsortable, and probably rename it "References" if you're only using it for refs not notes; (c) complete the location column, some are missing; (d) explain why 1,000MW is an appropriate cut-off; (e) cite sentences in the lead that aren't drawn from the table; (f) re-read for basic grammar errors (I've fixed a few that I saw); (g) don't link "MW" more than once in the lead, and explain what it stands for at some stage e.g. "larger than 1,000 megawatts (MW)"; (h) add alt text to the images.) Bencherlite^Talk 17:28, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand. Sorry for wasting your time, again. A quick closure is a good idea. I'll dedicate more time on this (and other lists) before posting another nomination. Regards to all. Rehman⁽⁺⁾ 01:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Closing note: This list is pretty far from ready, most notably as a result of the multiple {{cn}} tags. The two reviewers above have provided a set of comments, all of which should be acted upon before this list is renominated. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.