Talk:William Bronston

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 14:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the great nephew of Leon Trotsky was a physician for the Black Panther Party and helped deinstitutionalize Willowbrook State School? Source: "Raised in Hollywood, he was also the son of a major movie producer, Samuel Bronston, and the great nephew of socialist revolutionary Leon Trotsky." (Nisbet 2021, p.39); "...he moved to New York, where he served as the main physician for the Black Panther Party." (Nisbet 2021, p.39); "He then moved to New York City, and in the early 1970s he became a major force in publicizing and protesting the horrendous conditions at Willowbrook, a state facility on Staten Island that housed 5,000 mentally disabled adults and children. These efforts culminated in a 1975 state court decision to deinstitutionalize the facility’s patients." (Rogers 2001, p. 19). Full book titles can be found in the article.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/I don't know her

Created by Freedom4U (talk). Self-nominated at 12:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/William Bronston; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems: - Is Deinstitutionalisation what is meant here? If so, I think it should be linked in the lead and body of the article as readers may not understand. (In the hook we could leave it unlinked or rephrase to add a link without creating a sea of blue.)

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Great hook and a very interesting article! — Bilorv (talk) 23:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

• @Bilorv: Thank you! I've addressed your concerned about wikilinking deinstitutionalization. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 16:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

• ALT0 approved. Thanks for the quick response! — Bilorv (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

"particularly relevant"

@GiantSnowman I'm sorry for creating so many discussions, but regarding including Trotsky in the infobox, I'd like to point out that the guidelines state that it needs to be "particularly relevant" to the article, not simply notable (in the general sense or in the Wikipedia sense). I'm not quite certain what being included in the DYK hook really has to do with all this. There's one book that provides a mention of him being the great nephew of Trotsky when introducing him, but that's really it. Him being related didn't impact of influence him, hell he didn't even know him. I doubt that the distant relationship counts as "particularly relevant". ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If it's notable enough for DYK, then it's notable enough for the infobox - and that seemed to be your concern? GiantSnowman 19:26, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Anything is "notable enough" for DYK so long as it is supported by an in-line citation in the body of the article. I'm unsure what that has to do with the guideline that relatives added to the infobox must be "particularly relevant" to the subject of the article.

A small aside, in case this is the confusion, the guidelines for relatives is stricter than the guidelines for parents/children. Parents/children only require the person to be either independently notable or particularly relevant (emphasis my own). Relatives (and distant relatives like this) require the person to be both independently notable and particularly relevant (again emphasis my own). ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 19:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:William Bronston/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Freedom4U (talk · contribs) 17:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: AdeptLearner123 (talk · contribs) 19:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

From the GARC, will review this AdeptLearner123 (talk) 19:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Comments

1a - Prose

- Should born March 1939 have a comma?

 Not done No. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- I think enrolled at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), as a pre-med major. should not have the second comma

 Not done This is standard usage in American English according to the Chicago Manual of Style. They write: Some institutional names include place-names set off by commas. When such a name appears in the middle of a clause, a second comma is required to set off the place-name. They then give the example California State University, Northridge, has an enrollment of... FWIW, this is also the one recommended by the university. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean should this comma be removed: At sixteen, Bronston enrolled at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), as a pre-med major. Seems like it should be At sixteen, Bronston enrolled at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) as a pre-med major AdeptLearner123 (talk) 20:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I understood what you're talking about. Read the examples in the sources given above:

• California State University, Northridge, has an enrollment of...
• The University of California, Santa Cruz, opened in 1965.
• University of California, Davis, is the name of the northernmost UC campus.

There is supposed to be a comma before and after the campus names. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 23:34, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah gotcha, sounds good AdeptLearner123 (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

- , who he met two years earlier should use whom

 Done ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- editorials centering medical students. Should this be "centered on medical students"?

 Not done I don't think so? The nuance is similar, but I think centering medical students better captures that the newspaper is centering the voices of medical students and isn't something being done from the outside in. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- integrated the forums with praxis Could this be reworded for readers who don't know what praxis is?

 Not done I think the wikilink provides enough context ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:35, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Bronston flew cross-country Maybe this would be clearer as "across the country"?

 Done Agreed. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- restrictions laid out by the draft board can restrictions be elaborated on?

 Done Rephrased. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Maybe him being expelled can be "his expulsion"

 Done Agreed. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Harlem poor people's medical center This sounds like it should be a proper noun? Unless it is a poor people's medical center in Harlem

 Not done It's a poor people's medical center in Harlem. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Victorian Staten Island home I think victorian should be lowercase, might be wrong

 Not done Victorian is capitalized because its name originates from Queen Victoria. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- In response to 1971 budget cuts Should this be "the 1971 budget cuts?"

 Not done No? ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- re-organize maybe this should be reorganize

 Done Agreed. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- terminating the employment of Wilkins and Elizabeth Lee As a reader I'm confused who Elizabeth Lee is.

 Done Addressed ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 20:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

- when a state court ruling deinstitutionalized the facility.[44] wondering if there can be a short elaboration on what deinsitutionalization is and how that changed the hospital.

 Partly done I've wikilinked the term now like I have done in the lede and I've slightly rephrased it. In my view, the word is self-explanatory ("to take someone out of an institution") so I don't see much need to further elaborate on it. This is also an article on Bronston so I don't think it would be fit to include further commentary on the institution if reliable sources about Bronston don't either. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 06:03, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

o - a Medicare for All program Medicare for All seems like it should be a common noun

 Not done Medicare for All refers to specific legislation in the US Congress and is a proper name. See this ngram if you're unconvinced. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

1b - MOS

- For the first paragraph of the lead section, I think it should focus on why Bronston was notable by elaborating on his role in the deinsitutionalization, along with other notable events, instead of going directly into early life. Based on this: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography

 Not done Perhaps you meant to link to a different guideline, but that page does not state that. Can you be more specific on what section you meant? The "First sentence" section only applies to the very first sentence of the lede and the "Context" section only refers to the national context (and other personal characteristics) in which someone was notable in. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:47, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm referring to this guideline about first paragraphs: MoS guidelines for opening paragraphs and lead sentences should generally be followed. The opening paragraph of a biographical article should neutrally describe the person, provide context, establish notability and explain why the person is notable, and reflect the balance of reliable sources. My interpretation was that the first paragraph should be an overview of his whole life instead of discussing the first half of his life.AdeptLearner123 (talk) 20:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Eh, I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation. Take a look at this recent featured article, for example: Cora Agnes Benneson. It lists why she is notable in the first two sentences, but continues on in the rest of the paragraph to describe her early life as part of a chronological overview of her life. The opening paragraph right now:

• neutrally describes the person Y
• provides context Y (describes nationality, profession, time period, location)
• establishes and explains notability Y (Bronston is primarily notable for his efforts to deinstitutionalize Willowbrook State School)
• reflect the balance of reliable sources Y (follows due weight)

I don't think there's a strong reason to not present all of the items in the lede in chronological order, outside of the first sentence. In an article with a two paragraph lede, I don't think it's violating due weight to put items in chronological order like that. All of the things he's notable for (primarily Willowbrook, and secondarily his student activism) are still mentioned in the first paragraph. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 00:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, makes sense AdeptLearner123 (talk) 00:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

- Wondering if we can remove the link to senior for WP:SOB since most reader probably know what a senior in school is.

 Not done This is a term used in American English that is not commonly used in commonwealth countries, so a link will be useful. This also isn't an example of "sea of blue" because there aren't any wikilinks before or after senior. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Seems like New Left is linked to twice

 Not done It's linked once in the lede and once in the body, which is within the recommendations of MOS:REPEATLINK. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- civil service tenure not sure why civil service tenure needs to be linked?

 Not done Tenure redirects to academic tenure and in my view, civil service tenure is pretty likely to be notable. My understanding is that tenure is far more commonly used in American English than British English so there is reason to believe some readers will not understand what tenure means. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- all the Benevolent Societies should Benevolent Societies have a link?

 Not done Certainly not to Benevolent Society, which is a specific Australian charitable organization. I'm not personally certain whether Willowbrook's Benevolent Society was notable and since there is no article, I don't see a need to redlink it. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- frequently in talk shows most readers probably know what a talk show is, so maybe this link is unnecessary.

 Done Agreed. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

2b - Reliable Sources

- Seems like wikidata is cited, which is not considered reliable Wikipedia:Citing_sources

@AdeptLearner123: I'm not at home right now so I'll read through this review more thoroughly later, but this bit caught my eye. Where does the article cite wikidata? I don't remember adding a wikidata citation and I don't see one. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 20:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

There seem to be two places that cite wikidata. First is ...Child Therapy Clinic at the Children's Hospital Los Angeles under Richard Koch [Wikidata] second is In November 1971, Bronston invited Richard Koch [Wikidata],...

Oh my bad, these are wikidata links, not citations. I will strike through this comment.

Ohhh, I see what you meant now. Yeah those are interlanguagelinks with the illm template. They're pretty common on foreign language articles, but they can also link to wikidata. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

- Books by Bronston himself seem to be extensively cited. Would it be possible to cite other sources instead?

That citations in 1-11 are all for extremely simple claims about his early life. 18-21 are also used to source simple claims that tie in with the provided secondary sources. 45 and 48 are also simple claims that allow us to date the secondary sources. Not so relevant, but none of these are books; with the exception of 48, all of these are to an interview listed in the references. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Spot check

@AdeptLearner123 FYI, you must do a spot check of the sources (select a random sample of the sources and determine whether they verify the material they are cited for) for this to be a valid review. See the instructions at WP:GAN/I#Reviewing ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 05:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good, I did a quick spot check of the resources that I have access to. One thing I found was that this reference: Bronston 2004, p. 32 is used to cite the statement that Bronston visited Sweden as a senior, but the source material states this on page 39, not 32. Can you verify if this needs to be fixed? AdeptLearner123 (talk) 20:14, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Huh, I don't know how that happened. I've fixed it now. Good catch! ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 01:42, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I think everything else looks good. Once this is resolved I think the GAR is passed AdeptLearner123 (talk) 00:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)