Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/August 2008

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Late Chrysanthemums

This article could use some cleanup. Thanks, Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

A couple of editors have done a little on it. Thanks for pointing us toward it. Fg2 (talk) 05:42, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Villa incognito

I ran across the Villa Incognito article by chance. It's only marginaly linked to Japan, but I thought I'd bring it up nonetheless.

The article's a mess. It's written in a way a high-schooler might write if they wanted to pretend they were literary agents, and judging by the talk page, it has been in that awful state for a long while now. Has anyobody here read the novel and would be willing to completely rewrite the article? TomorrowTime (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I know this isn't helping, but the main author's User page claims that his edits exhibit a professional level of English. Made me chuckle a bit. :) --Torsodog^Talk 04:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

True, the tone of the article isn't right, at least for Wikipedia. But still, it's written by a native English speaker. Many (not all of course) articles written by Japanese-speaking contributors have far more problems, I think. (I try to do my best, though.) -- Taku (talk) 05:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It's exactly the tone of the article that I find fault with - for instance, what does Robbins-esque mean? I mean, to earn the esque suffix you have to be pretty well known as a writer - to the extent that even people unfamiliar with your work know what is meant by [name]esque... Just being written by a native speaker doesn't mean it's written well. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think WikiProject Novels should handle this instead of us. --ざくら木 12:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

We read that:

Such ideas as sexual congress are remarkably expressed by [the author's] prose regarding the copulation of a grown man and a 17 year-old girl:

"For them not to have fucked then and there would have required such a reversal of the laws of nature as to cause Newton to spin in his coffin and NASA to discontinue the space program."

It occurs to me that the latter writing is (if quoted accurately) professional (it appeared in a novel that some people have bought) as well as bad not obviously all that good. Might the author of the article and the author of the novel be related?

Sorry, scrub that. Robbins's writing is excellent. It must be. From the recipe here:

When [Robbins] starts a novel, it works like this. First he writes a sentence. Then he rewrites it again and again, examining each word, making sure of its perfection, finely honing each phrase until it reverberates with the subtle texture of the infinite. Sometimes it takes hours. Sometimes an entire day is devoted to one sentence, which gets marked on and expanded upon in every possible direction until he is satisfied. Then, and only then, does he add a period.

Pretty impressive! But it gets better:

While working on each sentence, [Robbins] has no idea what the next sentence is going to be, much less the next chapter or the end of the book. All thoughts of where he is going or where he has been are banished. Each sentence is a Zen universe unto itself[...]

Zen, man, can you dig it? Now is this WikiProject Japan material or what? -- Hoary (talk) 02:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 July 31

Two historically significant images are up for deletion, please vote. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 01:20, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Cabinet changes

I posted some changes to the Cabinet in Cabinet of Japan#The Cabinet (August 2008 to present) according to the Cabinet's Japanese page. However, there has been some shuffling of portfolios and I don't have English translations of new offices, especially at the bottom of the list. So I removed some posts and names. If anyone can add them, it would be valuable information. Also, in case I made mistakes, a second look would be worthwhile. Fg2 (talk) 03:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

(The English list of ministers has not yet been updated.) Fg2 (talk) 03:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese subtitles

(And I don't mean 字幕スーパー.) Whether the tildes in such places as "Best ~Bounce & Lovers~" amuse, dismay, satisfy or delight you, have your say on them here at MoS. -- Hoary (talk) 10:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

They amuse or dismay me, and I said so on that talk page. There was some agreement, and no disagreement, so the MoS page is now amended. Here is the new section. I hope y'all like it. -- Hoary (talk) 15:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for Japanese

Need kanji at Atsumu Ohmura. Badagnani (talk) 08:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

This site gives 大村纂, so I put it in the article Fg2 (talk) 10:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Requst for Kanji

Need kanji at Nobutake Machimura. Thanks in advance. Cla68 (talk) 00:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Cla68, Unfortunately that's a typo. The spelling Nobutaka Machimura gets you to an article that already has the kanji in it. Fg2 (talk) 01:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing it. Apparently the newspaper article I was using misspelled his name. Cla68 (talk) 08:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Article on Discrimination in Japan

A new article titled Minorities in Japan which details discriminatory practices in Japan has been added by User:Vaibs2. I've placed an expert-subject tag on the article requesting a review by experts concerning neutrality, balance, etc. Recently there was an AfD discussion concerning a similar article under a different name (AfD for Discrimination in Japan). I think it would be best if editors from WikiProject Japan looked at the new article to decide if it is a candidate for merging with Racial issues in Japan, or an afd discussion because it is the same as the previously afd'd article, or perhaps should be renamed since it isn't about minorities in Japan as much as a list of discrimination lawsuits. Can anyone from this project check it out? CactusWriter 06:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me almost identical to the deleted Discrimination in Japan article. It also misses the point of the article (based on its title) and uses far too many legal quotations, overly specific examples, and overall reads like a painfully dense academic journal article, not like an informative but easy to read Wikipedia article. Compare this list of several very specific examples of discrimination-related lawsuits to Racial issues in Japan, which lists the chief minority groups and covers the history/background and key issues involved with each group, in solidly well-written and easy to read language. LordAmeth (talk) 14:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Minorities in Japan" is written in an over the top style, but the article "Racial issues in Japan" seems to have been whitewashed. The "background section" spends the majority of its space explaining how the report on discrimination by the UN is biased. It's funny to see that, because I was just reading a New York Times article a short while ago on how discrimination and xenophobia in Japan is such a big problem that Japanese companies are having trouble hiring engineers and scientists from other countries. Indeed, the article even emphasized that the majority of companies aren't even expending real effort at hiring "foreigners" (despite a shortage of Japanese workers), since they are xenophobic. None of this is obvious from the article "Racial issues in Japan". Indeed, much of it is only implied or under the surface of the various facts and figures. --C S (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I feel very strongly that something needs to be done with this article; I am tempted to nominate it for AfD. Putting aside the issue of pro- or anti-Japanese attitudes, i.e. degree of whitewashing, degree of over the top style, the approach of this article is completely wrong for an encyclopedia. An article entitled "Minorities in Japan" should talk about the history of immigration, and current ethnic/cultural situation, including but not dominated by discussions of discrimination. Minorities in Greece is a fine example of what this should look like. By contrast, it could be renamed and refocused as an article on "Discrimination in Japan", in which case Racial issues in Japan serves as a good start, and a good model for style and approach; information on burakumin, GLBT, women, could be added to make it a more thorough "Discrimination in Japan" article. But this Minorities in Japan article as it exists now, a lengthy and excessively detailed series of examples of lawsuits and incidents which imply a wider pattern of discrimination without actually addressing or describing that pattern outright, is just not the kind of thing Wikipedia ought to cover in my opinion. If we absolutely want to keep it, it should perhaps be renamed Discrimination lawsuits and incidents in Japan, while another article, expanding on the Minorities section of Demographics of Japan, along with an edited Racial issues in Japan and perhaps an additional Discrimination in Japan article, could cover the topic this editor (User:Vaibs2) fails to. LordAmeth (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Any chance that the primary editor on "Minorities in Japan" might have a close personal relationship with Debito Arudou? Arudou has hinted at activity in Wikipedia in his column in the Japan Times. If so, there might be an issue of COI here since he is an outspoken minority rights activist. Cla68 (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I am in complete agreement with LordAmeth's assessment. At the very least this article needs to be immediately renamed to reflect the subject matter. At present, the article lacks even a cursory lede paragraph because it would be impossible to construct one encorporating the term "Minorities in Japan" without presenting a completely biased and one-sided tone. Discrimination lawsuits and incidents in Japan more clearly covers the subject matter. The best next step is to merge this article with Racial issues in Japan which already has laid a good groundwork for presenting this kind of information in a neutral well-rounded manner. And as far as the COI issue goes -- the editor (User:Vaibs2) using a name like VAIBS (Victims Against Illegal Bank SURUGA) would appear to be making a clear statement about their non-neutrality on discrimination issues. However, that is beside the point here -- the current discussion should remain about the content of the article rather than the editor. CactusWriter 09:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I've written a note at User talk:Vaibs2 concerning this discussion and the current "requested move" discussion at Talk:Minorities in Japan#Requested move -- in case User:Vaibs2 might care to comment. CactusWriter 11:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Need kanji at Teiji Ito

Hello, can someone figure out the kanji for Teiji Ito (a 20th century composer and musician who emigrated from Japan to the U.S.)? Badagnani (talk) 00:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

This blog and a number of other (not necessarily authorative) Japanese pages give "イトー・テイジ" in katakana, but I had no luck in finding anywhere that shows the original kanji. --DAJF (talk) 00:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Too bad! I'm sure it exists somewhere, as in Japan there are enthusiasts for every type of art (including the Maya Deren films with scores by Ito. Can you search for Maya Deren in the Japanese Internet and see if his name shows up? Badagnani (talk) 01:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anything show up in this search? Badagnani (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Poking around, I came across the kanji 伊藤 for Itō, his last name. Not sure if it is correct, however, and nothing for his first name yet. --Torsodog^Talk 01:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Does this search have anything better? Badagnani (talk) 01:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried a few Google searches including katakana and hiragana combined with "Maya Deren." No luck locating kanji. Katakana seems the common way for Japanese to write it. Probably he wrote his name in romaji for professional use, and Japanese rendered it in katakana. But maybe someone can turn up something... Fg2 (talk) 08:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I found it! It's 伊藤貞司. See this. Oda Mari (talk) 18:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, nice find. I gave up a loooong time ago. --Torsodog^Talk 20:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Great, Oda Mari; can you summarize what that website is all about? You're sure it's about the composer? Badagnani (talk) 20:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Mari, great detective work! The Web site is definitely about the composer, and states that he composed music for "One Flew... ." Fg2 (talk) 20:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The web site is who's who in modern Japan and know it through family tree. This is the home page. The page I provided is the Tamekichi Ito, Teiji's grandfather, and his family tree page. As the Wiki article says, they are a theatrical family and according to the family tree, Jerry Ito/ジェリー伊藤 was Teiji's first cousin. Oda Mari (talk) 06:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've just added about Jerry Ito to the Teiji Ito article, but could you add more about his family and what types of theater they were involved in? Badagnani (talk) 07:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Kanji needed

Could someone add the Kanji names and links to the Japanese Wikipedia for these two articles on Japanese admirals I just started- Tomiji Koyanagi & Susumu Kimura? Cla68 (talk) 06:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I added kanji for both Koyanagi and Kimura and a interwiki link for Koyanagi. The Japanese Wikipedia does not have an article for Kimura yet. --Kusunose 07:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Kusunose. Cla68 (talk) 07:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nihon no terebi

1. When rendering Japanese TV Network name, how about this? "Flagship station / Network". For example:
   • KTV / FNS (Non-news programme by Kansai TV, shown throughout the Japan on Fuji Network.)
   • Fuji TV / FNN (News programme by Fuji TV, shown throughout the Japan on Fuji Network.)
   • TBS / JNN (Both news and non-news programme by TBS, shown throughout the Japan on TBS' Network.)
   • TVO / TXN (Programme by TV Osaka, shown throughout the Japan on TV Tokyo Network.)
2. Modelling after the BBC article, would someone remodel an article about NHK?
3. Would these a good model for the TV network navigation templates?
   1. Box for the affiliates of a network

TV stations in one region (Kyūshū and Okinawa for example)

4. There should be a manual of style for the Japanese TV networks and stations. It'll need more discussions but my opinion is it should modelled after the GA-scaled articles about Australian TV networks and stations: NBN Television, Prime Television, Seven Network and WIN Television. Normally, "History", "Programming", "Availability", "Logos", refs and links consists the contents of them. For the Japanese TV, articles aboutkey-kyoku in Tokyo and jun key-kyoku in Osaka would focus on the role as the flagship and secondary flagship stations respectly while the "News Networks" such as ANN, JNN focusing on the news gathering and the separated non-news providers like NNS, FNS having a separate focus from NNN, FNN. (By the way, how to take care of TXN?)--JSH-alive ^(talk)_(cntrbtns)^{(mail me)} 13:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation - short audio clip needed

Someone on Talk:Hiroshima asked a question about how the name of the city is pronounced. I tried to explain, but think it would help to add a short audio clip to the article. I wouldn't be the best person to do this, so is there someone here who could do this? --Aude (talk) 00:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There's some variation in the way people say it. Do they want it spoken by a US or British or Australian person? A Hiroshima native or someone from the Kanto or another region of Japan? Ideally, it would be uploaded to Commons in Commons:Category:Japanese pronunciation with a filename that follows the pattern in Commons:Pronunciation files requests. So I guess it would be Image:Ja-Hiroshima.ogg with an explanation of the native language of the person who spoke it.

Calling all copyright experts. Could we post a recording of a single word from a Japanese broadcast (for example an NHK news broadcast, or the name of the city as spoken on television by a native such as the mayor), or would that violate copyright? Fg2 (talk) 02:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That would violate copyright, or be fair use at best. Since it could be replaced by a free recording, it would not be allowed here. I may be able to record it, but I've never saved anything in ogg format. I can do mp3 if someone wants to convert it. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest someone from that part of Japan would be good, but really anything would be excellent. I can handle converting files to ogg, if needed. Thanks. --Aude (talk) 09:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

日本穣, for recording ogg, a nice program is the free Audacity software. You've already got the capability to record mp3, but if someone else needs it, download the Lame plug-in for Audacity. The download is easy, fast and free. Fg2 (talk) 09:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I recorded it using Wiretap Studio Pro, and then converted it with Audacity. You can hear it here. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:20, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

That's clear, and avoids copyright problems. Fg2 (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like 「色島」 to me... --ざくら木 14:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a definite "H" sound at the beginning. That's how it's said there. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. --Aude (talk) 20:01, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Help regarding a music article.

Bivattchee has been PROD'd, though it's still currently active and plenty notable. The problem is that no sites that make reference to them are in English. I was hoping someone here could put in a little effort and set the article up as at least a passable stub, stating its members, albums and etc which is all easily found out by looking at its official website. - Norse Am Legend (talk) 05:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

They have three albums and three singles under Sony Music in Japan, so they meet WP:MUSIC. I removed the prod. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Founding of Japan

On the list of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood, the date given for the founding of Japan, 660 BC, is the traditional date derived from Japanese legend. But in actual historical fact, the Yamato state which would evolve into a unified, coordinated country did not emerge until many centuries later. Whether that date is 538, when the capital was founded at Asuka, 710 when the capital was founded at Nara, or earlier in the Kofun period, is certainly a matter of debate. Many scholars of Japanese history would likely argue that there was no country of "Japan" until 1868. But in any case, whatever date we may choose, it's certainly not 660 BC, as that's simply completely historically inaccurate, going back to a period during the Jomon period before there was any organized government or society of any kind beyond small chiefdoms, extended family clan villages, or something to that effect. Please see discussion at Talk:List of countries in chronological order of achieving statehood, and respond there, not here. Thank you. LordAmeth (talk) 01:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Tokyo 6 Universities

Tokyo 6 Universities seems to be an article about nothing. "Tokyo 6 Universities" looks to me like a literal (and unidiomatic) translation of a Japanese phrase, ja:東京六大学, that's used to cover six universities in (or near) Tokyo that happen to be united in a baseball tournament and that has no other meaning that I know of. The baseball tournament deserves an article to itself and gets one: Tokyo Big6 Baseball League. Maybe the 東京六大学 article says something deep and significant but if so I can't find it. Am I missing something? Tama1988 (talk) 10:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I stuck "unreferenced" and "notability" warnings on this. If somebody thinks the article could say something worth saying, all the best with it. Tama1988 (talk) 06:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's very possible this is meant to be an article like Big Three (colleges), which is about the history and social prestige of these universities. The article Ivy League has a section on social aspects of its reputation, although originally "Ivy League" just referred to an athletic conference. --C S (talk) 07:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I took out three of the four paragraphs; they're not specifically related to the subject (the title) of the article but are generally about colleges and universities in Tokyo. The material largely duplicates Education in Tokyo#Colleges and universities. Fg2 (talk) 08:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Good work. But it's now just a dictionary definition. "OR" tells me that these six are actually no more than six universities that happen to play baseball together. (Nothing else links the six that wouldn't also link other universities.) If this OR is right, then the article can never be more than a dictionary definition. Tama1988 (talk) 09:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If you are truly tapped into Japanese society and still think it's just a baseball conference, then I would believe you. But this kind of thing takes a lot of integration into the society to understand, beyond just living in Japan for several years. For example, even people that have lived in the U.S. for years may not know of the "Big Three" term or the concept of "HYP". You would have to interact with people in a certain class or be quick on picking up nuances in media. Because of that, I am not so keen to quickly dismiss the merits of this article. --C S (talk) 20:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If a deletion discussion were opened, someone might say college sports leagues can be noteworthy. This one does get mentioned in the nationwide news reports. The history of the baseball league could be developed into an article. (I have no interest in doing so.) Fg2 (talk) 09:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, now I see the link you provided to the baseball league. Fg2 (talk) 09:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the remarks on the talk page, there may be a good article on Tokyo/Waseda/Keio analogous to that of the Big Three, but this would require some good sourcing on their historical and cultural status (including sourcing any terms or phrases used to refer to them). I also object to the blanket removal of all the material. There was a claim that most prime ministers graduated from a Tokyo 6 university. That has been removed. This is valuable information. It would be analogous to removing the section on social status from the Ivy League article. If we did that, the reader would think this was simply an athletic conference of 8 universities with no significance beyond that, but that would be false. --C S (talk) 20:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

CS says: There was a claim that most prime ministers graduated from a Tokyo 6 university. That has been removed. This is valuable information. No, it's not valuable. Most prime ministers graduated from just one university, Tokyo. Some graduated from other universities, and these other universities do include Sophia University (Hosokawa) and the Tokyo University of Fisheries (Suzuki) -- which are in Tokyo yet don't happen to play baseball with the six other universities -- and they do not include at least one, and I think more than one, of the so-called Tokyo six universities. Universities from which prime ministers graduated of course also include some well outside Tokyo. (What really is a big help in becoming Prime Minister is to have a Prime Minister as a father or uncle. Rather like the US, come to think of it.) There has been no sourced claim that graduates of any one of the so-called Tokyo six universities have any career, social or other advantage not shared by graduates of such universities as Sophia, Kyoto, Ritsumeikan, or Hitotsubashi: my own "intuition" is that graduates of two or three of the six may have such an advantage but that graduates of two of the six are actually at a greater or lesser disadvantage. CS's last claim seems to presuppose that the so-called Tokyo six universities are analogous to the "Ivy League"; that they are analogous is an potentially interesting claim and I'm open to supporting evidence for it, but without supporting evidence I have no time for it. -- Hoary (talk) 02:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

First, since there seems to be some confusion, these are not my claims, as you may be aware from having participated on the talk page for the article. The deleted material for the most part seems to have been contributed by anons who are not native English speakers (I wonder if they are Japanese). I made my comments to see what the response from native Japanese editors would be, but I don't think there has been any. As an example, when I look at Keio University, it certainly seems that there is a great prestige attacked to it and many policy makers are on the alumni list (I suspect this list could be much further expanded). Regarding your comment on the relative prestige of the 6 within themselves, I tend to agree. But even that is true of the Ivy League. Harvard, Yale and Princeton (HYP) is just way above the other schools in prestige. In terms of advantages, plenty of other schools would be considered just as advantageous (or even more so) than the five remaining Ivies. Nonetheless, being part of the "Ancient Eight" does add some social prestige, regardless of the actual advantages. I'm sorry you have no time for this, but I hope you will take some time to research this because I think there is a seed here for some good articles. Of course, it takes effort to dig out this type of material, and I understand you wish to focus on topics that are easier to write. --C S (talk) 22:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

let me add that I didn't just randomly decide to be contrary and say "no you're wrong there's something here!" I'm not sure if there's something. But I am familiar with the Ivy League and phenomenon like SKY (universities) (an elite trio of Korean universities). I also saw the talk page discussion for the Tokyo 6 article which seemed to feature a fairly knowledgable editor who wrote, "I would think it'd be safe to say that all of the Tokyo 6 schools have a level of prestige and advantage, concentrated in the T/W/K Trifecta, but not necessarily because of the fact that they've been playing baseball against each other for 81 years." This was what suggested to me that there is an article here. This editor is seemingly saying there is a social status to these schools (but of course not equally) which is really independent of the baseball aspect. Recall that the Ivy League was formed so these 8 schools could play basketball. But unless you are a real sports fanatic, most people hear "Ivy League" and think something really quite divorced from basketball or sports.

Referencing the SKY material wasn't too difficult (because of the acronym) but I recall when one editor was strongly pushing to insert the social status material in the Ivy League article. Obviously, his POV really was correct (as a lot of people know and his refs finally bore out), but he ran into a lot of resistance because this kind of thing is very hard to reference adequately. How do you show that there is a social reputation of the Ivy League as a whole (not just for individual schools in the league)? It turned out to be fairly difficult, but this industrious editor did it. Probably it took way too much time, but the article in the end is better for it. At least now people know that "Ivy League" isn't just a group of 8 schools formed to play basketball. --C S (talk) 22:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I regret making this so long but I thought I should add that there is something else that put the "Tokyo, Keio, Waseda" trio in my mind, although I had forgotten until now what it was. Part of the deleted content of the SKY article included some unreferenced claims that Koreans compare SKY to those three Japanese schools. While they were unreferenced (although I think sources could be found if one really tried), this is a common thing I've heard too from Koreans. Anyway, even if one could source this kind of thing well, I expect it's not going to be a separate article unless there is a nickname or commonly used term for these schools, like SKY or even HYP. --C S (talk) 22:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Somebody (and let's not worry who): "I would think it'd be safe to say that all of the Tokyo 6 schools have a level of prestige and advantage, concentrated in the T/W/K Trifecta, but not necessarily because of the fact that they've been playing baseball against each other for 81 years."

On reading this very literally, yes, I agree, they all do have a level of prestige. They also all have an advantage over a fair number of other universities, none of which I'm in the mood to name here. But this person seems to be saying that these six universities are more prestigious than others in Tokyo. This surprises me. (My polite way of saying "Horseshit!") I have no reason to think that Rikkyo, Hosei or Meiji has an advantage over Chuo or Sophia (in Tokyo). I've no reason to think that any except Tokyo has an advantage over Hitotsubashi (also in Tokyo). And this is for mainstream subjects, like economics and law. If we move into less mainstream subjects, then some of these universities are way behind competitors such as Tokyo Gaigo.

How can "prestige" be measured? I fear that the normal way is to use as one's "authority" some piece of journalism in which the writer summarizes what he thinks he remembers he was told somewhere. However, there could be studies of how easy it is to get jobs, etc. My hunch is that inter-university differences would be dwarfed by inter-discipline differences: Rightly or wrongly, business studies beats philosophy or German literature.

Or we can look at the degree of difficulty of entering universities. The clearest I've seen are a set of web pages compiled by "Yozemi"; these prevent any comparison between public and private universities, but for private universities they show that the five private universities among these six are all at least moderately desirable (depending on the school [gakubu] within the university), but that the schools of other private universities in Tokyo can be pretty demanding, or even more demanding. So (for what it's worth), this shows that the toughest schools in private Tokyo universities to get into among the humanities, etc., are at Sophia (not in the "six") and two of the "six", closely followed by a third of the "six", followed by Chuo (not in the "six") and another of the "six"; then Tsuda Juku (not in the "six", but then gals don't traditionally play baseball), followed by the last of the "six". You should not generalize from these results to other areas, but their divergence from any notion that the five private Tokyo universities outclass the rest should be an eye-opener (as should the differences among the schools in any university). -- Hoary (talk) 15:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand your points, but I fear you're not understanding mine. Indeed, my reading of that quote is quite different than yours. I don't see that person saying that the Tokyo 6 are the most prestigious in Tokyo. Indeed, I'm not sure how you got that at all. That person seems to be saying that the association has a certain social significance independent of playing baseball together. If this significance is frequently referred to in Japanese media, it is notable and worth writing about. The question I'm asking is, is there social status to these Tokyo 6 schools which comes from their association together? That is why it was so difficult to reference the Ivy League material.

To compare to a possibly similar situation and making comments analogous to yours, each of the Ivies has a substantial reputation in its own right. Yet even the "lesser" ones gain from being in association with the others. There is an added social status associated to the Ivy League. Indeed, as I've said before, there are a number of schools in the U.S. that are literally harder to get into than most of the Ivies, have stellar reputations themselves, but there would be no point writing an article grouping them together as the only thing they have in common is being good and hard to get into. To put the question more constructively, do journalists, for example, often refer to "Tokyo 6" in contexts removed from baseball in order to convey a feeling of elitism? e.g., a comment like "so-and-so has no consideration for the less fortunate. After all he graduated from a Tokyo 6 and we know what snobs those people are" etc. Comments like that about the Ivy League are fairly prevalent in the U.S., despite the fact that other schools have elitism up the nose too, the fact that some of the Ivies are not as selective, and the demographics differ greatly from one Ivy to the next. --C S (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've looked at the article on the Ivy League and I'm not impressed with the relevant part of it. There's a lot of sourced information about sports, which is all well and good for readers who happen to be interested in grown men running around after balls and so forth but anyway is analogous to the article on Tokyo 6 baseball. There's tabular presentation of information that seems adequately expressed in the article on each evidence. As for the notion that the "Ivy League" outclasses the opposition, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence but little systematic evidence.

But back from the inscrutable occident to Japan. [D]o journalists, for example, often refer to "Tokyo 6" in contexts removed from baseball in order to convey a feeling of elitism? e.g., a comment like "so-and-so has no consideration for the less fortunate. After all he graduated from a Tokyo 6 and we know what snobs those people are" etc.

Some Japanese journalists say bizarre things when in their cups and some of it gets into print. But such a comment would be daffy even for a wino. Even granted that Keio may have created something of a religion of itself and its founder, it's fairly big and Waseda is a lot bigger. The idea that Meiji and Hosei, say, are "exclusive", or that their graduates are seen as a group as "snobs" is laughable. Such perceptions may exist for Tokyo but then again they may also exist for, say, Hitotsubashi.

Are you saying that because the "Tokyo 6 Universities" have been compared with the "Ivy League", they should be presumed to be similar until I present results from database searches, etc., to prove that the perceptions you think may exist haven't made it into print? Google hits are useless because of the small amount of putatively worthwhile Japanese-language material that gets onto and stays on the web. Should I then spend hours of my life going through databases on CD-ROMs after the libraries reopen?

Whatever "a feeling of elitism" and snobbery mean, could you present any credible evidence that there's thought to be (or even that there is) more around Meiji, Rikkyo and Hosei than around Sophia, ICU and Hitotsubashi? -- Hoary (talk) 04:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that because the "Tokyo 6 Universities" have been compared with the "Ivy League" they should be presumed to be similar...? Uh, no. How on earth did you get the idea that I'm insisting you presume something like that? Should I then spend hours of my life going through databases on CD-ROMs after the libraries reopen? Why do you think I'm demanding that you prove that something doesn't exist? I merely raise the pertinent questions so that the appropriate discussion takes place. Since until my last comment, you didn't understand the point I was raising, there hasn't been much of a discussion on the only part I think could lead to some improvements in our coverage of this type of topic. The constructive question I raised is constructive because it enables something for us to look for should we wish to expand the topic. You have already clearly expressed that you don't wish to do such work and now it seems that any suggestions on how to go about it or discuss these issues is seen as some kind of demand or confrontation. Let's be clear. I'm not here to argue with you on some point or demanding that you back up thoughts and opinions. I think you overlooked some things in what has been said, and I only point it out in the event that you are interested. If you are not interested in such discussion, there is no need for you to participate. --C S (talk) 04:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The constructive question I raised is constructive because it enables something for us to look for should we wish to expand the topic. Splendid, splendid. I for one don't wish to expand the topic, because I've no reason to think that there's any topic to be expanded (and the precedent of "Ivy League" doesn't inspire me). But I'm open to evidence. Does anyone have any evidence that's there's any topic to be expanded? -- Hoary (talk) 06:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I have been "bold", and redirected the article about the "six" to the one about their baseball. I have also moved the talk page of the former so that it's now an archive of the talk page of the latter. Tama1988 (talk) 07:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Completing Portal:Japan

As some of you know, I've been working on Portal:Japan for a few months now trying to get it to Featured Status sometime soon. Well, I think I am finally close. The one section that is totally incomplete, however, is the Selected Prefecture section in the Geography tab. As you can see, I have set up most of the layout and tools needed for each prefecture, but I need complete, standardized text for each. I was hoping someone with a little more experience with Prefectures and the prefecture articles here on Wikipedia could work on a few for me just to get the ball rolling. (Currently I have a few written, but they are not very good and I regard them simply as place holders right now.) I know this is a huge task, so anyone willing to pitch in is appreciated. Also, any comments or criticisms on the Portal as a whole are welcome. --Torsodog^Talk 08:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that there are only 47 prefectures, but there are 52 weeks, so we need to come up with what to put in the extra 5 weeks. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The only solutions I have for that problem are: 1. plug in some Regions of Japan to fill the holes or 2. throw out the weekly idea and simply make article selection random. --Torsodog^Talk 23:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

47 prefectures, I do not think that is a problem. Let them roll over. An overlap of 5 is not too bad.imars (talk) 06:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, we can add in Prefectures of Japan, City designated by government ordinance, Core city, Special cities of Japan, and Special wards of Tokyo. They are related articles, and provide useful information. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Need help with definite meaning

I just edited the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department Public Security Bureau recently when I checked the Japanese article and I saw 公安機動捜査隊. I do know that it literally means Public Riot Movement Team. Correct me if I'm wrong, but its fuction are suppose to be related to anti-terrorist work.

公安機動捜査隊

Hope that someone can look at this and let me know if I'm right since my Japanese is not that good yet.

I think it's Public Security/公安 Mobile/機動 Investigative/捜査 Unit/隊. Oda Mari (talk) 15:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Oda Mari. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Tokyo?

Has anyone considered starting Wikipedia:WikiProject Tokyo? There are many articles about Tokyo on EN, so I would think it would help to establish a WikiProject for the metropolis, including the special wards, the western suburbs, and the islands. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:09, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would work well as a task force of this project. That would likely get more people helping with it, too. Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Tokyo taskforce or something. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 19:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we can start it as a taskforce and see if it can grow into its own WikiProject. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

As a member of a different city WikiProject (Chicago), I think this could have potential. If the taskforce was started, I would certainly join. --Torsodog^Talk 21:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I started the task force for Tokyo. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Be sure to post a note on the Prefectures taskforce page, since this would need to work closely with that group. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:20, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have posted a note on the Prefectures taskforce talk page :) WhisperToMe (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The template, the linkfarm at the top of this page, and category trees will need to be updated. 70.51.11.210 (talk) 14:00, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Reading of 在ホノルル日本国総領事館 (Consulate-General of Japan in Honolulu)

What is the reading of 在ホノルル日本国総領事館 (Consulate-General of Japan in Honolulu)? WhisperToMe (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is "Zai Honoruru Nipponkoku Sōryōjikan". ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Nihonjoe :) WhisperToMe (talk) 22:16, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ito konnyaku

This article needs cleanup badly. Help? Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

three for cleanup

The new Mount Bizan, Awa Odori Kaikan and Oasa Hikyo jinja could use a little help. Arigato gosaimasu, Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 10:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Kazuharu Sonoda and South African Airways Flight 295 - need help sourcing

I need a source saying that Kazuharu Sonoda died on South African Airways Flight 295, but I cannot find a source. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

How about this one? the news No.7 . Oda Mari (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I did Google Autotranslator to see what it roughly says. This works. Thank you, Oda Mari :) WhisperToMe (talk) 17:29, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

:Category:Japanese given names

Not sure where to start with this ... I came across Yuki

Yuki or Yūki (Japanese:雪) is a Japanese given name.

and immediately deleted the kanji, I don't know of anyone with the name 雪, if there are it's certainly rare. Following is

One meaning is "brave", while another is "snow", and yet another is "princess".[citation needed]

No, there is no word yuki that means brave or princess - maybe kanji but none spring to mind.

Yuki Given Name Meaning brave, snow, princess

NO! The name doesn't mean that, eg 友紀, 由貴

I randomly checked a few other names in :Category:Japanese_given_names. Allegedly Akane means madder. The entry Yoko_(name) gets the various meaning = various kanji bit right and Keiko is pretty good.

It sounds like a lot of well meaning but not knowledgeable people have tried to be helpful and instead opened a can of worms. The complexity of the Japanese language especially in relation to names, makes any attempt to explain the meaning of names a pretty tough job.

I'm tempted to just go through and delete all these meanings for names but I want to discuss it first. I certainly don't feel like going through and adding example kanji and meanings for each name but as it stands many of these entries are confusing and factually incorrect Brettr (talk) 14:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Akane can indeed mean madder. I can quibble a little elsewhere, but basically I agree. A lot of the stuff about Japanese names is indeed dreadful, a mixture of fact, gross simplification, and fiction.

I don't think that en:WP should normally write about this kind of thing. "Keiko" for example doesn't really "mean" anything; it's a name that's usually written with kanji that do indeed have other meanings, but to say that if written 恵子 the name "means" child of blessings/benevolence is to be way too literal. This might be Wiktionary material (I really don't know), but I can't see how it's encyclopedic. -- Hoary (talk) 14:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

know anyone called 茜? ;) Brettr (talk) 15:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

There are two Akanes in ja wiki. ja:小田茜 and ja:菅崎茜. Oda Mari (talk) 18:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

An Akane is up for deletion as we speak ;) (Akane Omae)

Other than providing that useless factoid, I'd just like to say I really don't support meanings next to names, either. Many of the names are just usual names like ヨウコ or ケイコ that parents assign various kanji to - it'd be damn nigh impossible to consider them all, and I don't see any real reason for it, either. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The name "Keiko" can be written in many ways, and parents choose one of those ways when they give the name to a child. I'm sure there are various reasons for selecting a kanji (or kana). Perhaps these are among the important ones: a relative, friend, celebrity has the kanji in their name; it's the fad at the time; it serves multiple purposes such as indicating the season while giving a good meaning; it's felicitous; it has literary or scholarly connotations; it's simple enough to remember; it expresses an emotion or hope; it indicates birth order or gender. Some of these reasons involve the meaning of the kanji while others don't. In the West, there are books explaining the meanings and histories of given names to expecting parents. Some parents read what the name "Trevor" or "Felicity" means before giving it to their children; some don't. Are there books like this in Japanese?

Because "Keiko" can be written in various ways, and the characters have meanings, it's reasonable to list popular ways to write it and explain the separate kanji. This is different from explaining the meaning of the name. Simple explanations are probably better placed in dictionaries than in encyclopedias, but additional content can bring a name-article more clearly into the encyclopedia's realm. For example, listing how common the name is, famous people who had the name, literary associations, the other things that books on names discuss. Which means that articles on names can be sourced.

An advantage to Wikipedia of collecting explanations of names in articles on the names is that the explanations then clearly do not belong in articles on the people.

So I favor writing about names, with the meanings of the components being possible content, and I agree that we should approach the topic of meaning of names with caution. When we find incorrect content, we should correct it, call it to the attention of the community, or remove it from the article. Fg2 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Debito Arudou is complaining about his Wikipedia entry

Debito Arudou put a post on his site complaining about his Wikipedia entry http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=1878 - You may need to look at it and see if what he is saying is valid or invalid based on WP:COI and WP:BLP - Also check to ensure that editing does not go out of hand. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like he posted on the talk page of his article, too. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 00:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I posted a comment on the BLP noticeboard. That is the most appropriate place to lodge any complaints, but it seems Arudou didn't know about it. --C S (talk) 01:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course not, since his main concern seems to be whining about this, that, and the other thing. He's just an attention-monger, IMNSHO. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 03:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe but a bio of a living person deserves to be treated with respect and care. Busy now I'll look at it over the weekend (not that I want to become an expert on him (@.@) ) Brettr (talk) 05:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The relevant policy is WP:BLP. WP:COI is utterly irrelevant, this isn't the first time someone has come complaining about their Wikipedia entry. He has very intentionally requested versus editing, considering other people have as much as nominated themselves for deletion, screaming COI here is a witchunt.

I don't even know why you're trying to argue attention-monger when he's already stated that he's making the requests because his daughter wanted to get her name removed, for one.

Everything he mentioned will be handled in the context of existing policy. Many of his claims are actually valid. Half of the article summarized his life with his blog as a primary source, while secondary sources archived on his blog were deleted on the basis that the blog couldn't be referenced. Basically, everything with the blog as a primary source has to be deleted. This will leave fairly little. -Theanphibian ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Theanphibian, now that we know he does not wish to edit, now WP:COI is not relavant - still it is good to remind people of this policy. Anyway, hopefully after this the article should follow our policies. Now, his own blog counts as a self-published source according to BLP - There are some things that can be referenced by the self-published blog, but there are other things that cannot. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Manga Kenkanryu tagged for POV issues since December 2007

Who wants to look at Manga Kenkanryu's POV issues? It has been tagged since December 2007. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Info boxes: a Wikipedia-wide discussion

Everyone who has an interest in the use of information boxes in Wikipedia may participate at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Infobox and other tables solution discussion. Some earlier discussions (including material copied from other forums) begin at that link, and the main discussion starts below that at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Start of Village Pump discussion. Fg2 (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Nakamise-Dori

I proposed merging Nakamise-Dori into Asakusa. Discussion is welcome at Talk:Asakusa#Merging Nakamise-Dori. Fg2 (talk) 01:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Tokyo taskforce labeling

Tocho
50px

I would like to label talk pages of articles as for the Tokyo taskforce - How are the labels created? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll need to edit the {{WPJ}} template so you can just use that. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I humbly offer Image:TokyoTocho.jpg for the thumbnail. It's graphic at very small sizes.

Someone with more smarts than me could make an "if tf is Tokyo, show the Tokyo photo; otherwise show the Japan photo" work. Fg2 (talk) 06:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle Royale

I keep coming across character articles from Battle Royale that appear to be nothing more than a non-notable summary of that character with no real-world context. Anyway, there are 42 character articles that I'd like to trim and merge into a character list, I'd like input from the group before I do it so I can have a consensus. --Kraftlos (talk) 18:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I recommend posting over at WT:ANIME as well. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:08, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Question on special Japanese law enforcement units

Just want to ask which one is which regarding the anti-firearms unit. I've read that one is permanently assigned to the 7th Riot Squad.

http://ja.wiki.x.io/wiki/銃器対策部隊

http://ja.wiki.x.io/wiki/銃器対策レンジャー部隊

Plan for article in the future... It'd be helpful if anyone can detail me on their English meaning. One of them as the Ranger designation. Ominae (talk) 04:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

need help with sourcing and kanji names

Sources are sparse in English, is there anything for those who can read Japanese better than I can?

• Shintarō Negishi
• Saburō Matsukata
• Hidesaburō Kurushima
• Taizō Ishizaka

Thank you! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 11:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The name 根岸眞太郎 appears in ja:ボーイスカウト. Fg2 (talk) 11:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Matsukata has an article at ja:松方三郎. Fg2 (talk) 11:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Kurushima is ja:久留島秀三郎. Fg2 (talk) 11:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Ishizaka is ja:石坂泰三. Fg2 (talk) 11:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your help! Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese numerals

Japanese numerals & Chinese numerals has been proposed to be renamed. 70.55.85.143 (talk) 07:17, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Where? Badagnani (talk) 07:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The following articles do not cover any pure numeral system where the symbols and notations are clearly defined, instead they cover how numbers are used in the respective languages. I have proposed all of them be moved. Please discuss HERE.

• Names of numbers in English → Numbers in English
• Chinese numerals → Numbers in Chinese
• Japanese numerals → Numbers in Japanese
• Korean numerals → Numbers in Korean
• Welsh numerals → Numbers in Welsh
• Proto-Indo-European numerals → Numbers in Proto-Indo-European

Thank you. --Voidvector (talk) 07:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)