Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by FrB.TG via FACBot (talk) 15 January 2024 [1].

Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb

Nominator(s): el.ziade (talkallam) 15:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about a Phoenician sanctuary in Southern Lebanon. The small sanctuary held a trove of artifacts that contributed to the understanding of rural Phoenician ritual practices. It dates back to the Iron Age II, and it underwent multiple phases of construction and use. The article details the archaeological findings, including the architecture, artifacts, and inscriptions discovered during excavations. The religious activities observed at the site include rituals related to healing, salvation, childbearing, and childhood. The influence of Hellenistic culture during a later phase of the sanctuary's history is also discussed. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Pass (t · c) buidhe 01:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Airship

As always, these are recommendations, not demands. Feel free to refuse with adequate justification.

Per MOS:OVERSECTION, "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheadings." I think the location section could be merged with the following background section.
- The town of Kharayeb might be helpful to put "modern" for the general reader.
- at a short distance north of the Leontes River is the "at" necessary?
I know the box titled "Relevant Ancient Near East periodization" is probably correct, but unless I've missed something it seems uncited.
Link "Prehistoric"?
when Phoenicia was under Persian Achaemenid rule, Phoenician economy flourished either add a "the" before "Phoenician economy", or replace "Phoenician" with "its"
when the cults of deities of healing and salvation were emerging "the" is unnecessary imo.
As the "Hellenistic period and decline" section is a single, if lengthy, paragraph, you could merge it with the previous heading under the title "Background and ancient history" or similar.
I think you, like me, use too many commas. See sentence fragments such as there emerged in the heavily Hellenized coastal Phoenician cities, a surge or persistent adherence to their native language, and traditional religious practices. This may just be me over-correcting though.
When did Chehab's excavation stop?
The second paragraph of the "Description" section is a fairly chunky wall of text. Perhaps split it at "The temple exterior was..."?
I'm mulling over whether the "Architecture" section needs any subsections.
The adyton (most sacred space) might be useful to add a literal translation along with the explanation.
One notable feature of these temples was the "bent-entry," where the main entrance was not centrally located The source seems to indicate that temple at Kharayeb was not of the "bent-entry" variety: "the ‘new’ temple plans that replaced the ‘bent-entry’ in Phoenicia were of well-known local designs, such as ... the ‘courtyard house’ [at] Kharayeb". It does go on, confusingly, to say that key characteristics including the "bent-entry" endured, so I may be misreading.
- In any case, a layout diagram would be very helpful in the article, if possible.
The surviving Hellenistic period temple's main chamber measure surely it should be "measures"?

More to come. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the above. I left out a few, particularly the pre-classical temple architecture part. I will try to make a plan to explain the points highlighted in this passage, particularly the location of the adyton to the west of the structure, the side entry to the adyton (which is not visible on the render from the outside). el.ziade (talkallam) 14:44, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Airship, is there more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Airship ? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry, I don't have the time. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:22, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from UC

Driving by for now; will add more when I have the chance. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 06:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Director of Lebanon's Antiquities: Is that the formal title (that is, is Lebanon's Antiquities the official name of the body, or is it something like e.g. the Lebanese Archaeological Service?

It's 'Directorate General of Antiquities'

Right, so something like "the Lebanese Director General of Antiquities", "the head of Lebanon's Directorate General of Antiquities", or similar? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:57, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It was surveyed during three archaeological missions: in archaeology, survey is used for study that stops short of excavation (usually, projects which aim to find sites rather

than to investigate them in detail): we shouldn't use that term when we mean to include excavations.

Thanks!

Later, during the Hellenistic period: how much later was this?

Modified, thanks.

This Hellenistic period temple: simply Hellenistic temple (c.f. modern temple, Roman temple or similar).

Done.

from the Iron Age II and Persian period: needs to be periods for grammar, and so would suggest making the link only cover "Persian". When were these?

Done, thanks. There's an explanatory table for periods under the infobox.

new molding techniques introduced Greek themes and deities like Aphrodite and Hermes. The religious practices observed at the sanctuary remained faithful to local Phoenician traditions: this seems like a contradiction; if the gods didn't stay the same, what did?

I can't begin to explain Phoenician-Hellenistic syncretism. But I will try to rephrase.el.ziade (talkallam) 14:41, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed the sournces discuss the introduction of imags of deities. I must have dropped this in the lead. el.ziade (talkallam) 22:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi UC, is there more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog -- I have some more thoughts which I'll endeavour to put down soonish, but probably not a full review at this stage. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 20:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, I'm going to wait until Roy's concluded below. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RoySmith

General note: some images have MOS:ALT texts, some don't. Please provide the ones that are missing.

Lead

"Lebanon's Directorate General of Antiquities Maurice Chehab" WP:SEAOFBLUE

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"dating from the sixth to the first centuries BC": "century" instead of "centuries"?

Doneel.ziade (talkallam) 13:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"pre-Classical Phoenician temple design": I'm not sure Classical should be capitalized

I think it should when it refers to a specific historical period.

"yielded an extensive collection of artifacts": Is there a source which characterizes the collection as "extensive"?

Removed.el.ziade (talkallam) 13:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer to see a shorter lead, concentrating on just the most important aspects rather than trying to be comprehensive. For example, I'd rewrite the first paragraph as:

The Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb (Arabic: معبد الخرايب الفينيقي) is a historic temple in the hinterland of Tyre in Southern Lebanon. It was excavated in three stages. Maurice Chehab's 1946 mission revealed a Hellenistic temple with clay figurines dating from the sixth to the first century BC. Excavations in 1969 by Brahim Kaoukabani. and in 2009 by the Italian government, found evidence of cultic practices and produced a detailed reconstruction of the sanctuary's architecture.

which is about 2/3 the original word count and doesn't leave out anything important. Note that MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends 2-3 paragraphs for an article of this length.

Done. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Location

I agree with Airship that this could be merged with History.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence should be "The sanctuary is located ..." and then go on to give the details about the modern town, etc.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lower case north and south per MOS:COMPASS

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 13:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Try to avoid consecutive sentences that start with identical constructions, i.e. "The sanctuary is/was..." which reads awkwardly.

very true lol. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Historical background, foundation, and decline

"... to the Ottoman era (1516–1918)" Since you've already got the little table of archaeological periods, add Ottoman to that and leave the dates out. And you could leave out the dates in "Persian period (539–330 BC)" in the next paragraph for the same reason. And add "Middle Paleolithic" to that table.

Doneel.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"dating to the Iron Age": Iron Age I or Iron Age II (if known).

Source does not specifyel.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"dating back to" -> "dating to"

Removed all instancesel.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"During the Persian period ... under Persian": you don't need to repeat "Persian".

I had added this at the request of a peer reviewer. Removed nowel.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, no, the dreaded Battling reviewer syndrome. I feel your pain; please feel free to go with which ever way works best for you :-) RoySmith (talk) 15:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"economy flourished ... necessitating resource optimization": I would think resource optimization is something you resort to when the economy is not doing well. Perhaps this could be clarified?

"and the coastal cities' population grew, necessitating resource optimization". I believe it is clear enough.el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The placement of the duck picture makes it seem like it's related to the events of the Persian period discussed in this paragraph, but the description on the commons page says it's from the Hellenistic. Clarify this in the caption and/or move it to the right location.

Moved el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

namely the Seleucid Empire in West Asia and Ptolemaic Egypt" It's not clear how this relates to the article subject. Was the temple located in the Seleucid Empire?

Yes, Alexander generals partitioned previously Persian holdings among themselves. Tyre was under the Seleucids, but also was heavily influenced by the nearby Ptolemies. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"prevailing use of the Phoenician language among the majority" If it's the prevailing language, it's redundant to say it's used by the majority.

Probably leftover lint. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"This Greek cultural influence..." The previous sentence ends with "Hellenistic influence"; no need to repeat that.

True, removed el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes you write "first century", in other places, "1st century".

Done. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Modern discovery

"Some of these findings were documented by orientalists" you mention a few sentences later that Renan was an orientalist, so this sentence is redundant.

Doneel.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

collecting ancient "beads"; why is "beads" in scare quotes? It's not entirely clear when the collecting of these beads happened. I think what you're saying is that modern-day people found the beads buried in the area and collected them to make stuff. That should be clarified.

What they thought were beads, will fix it.el.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

terracotta figurines: WP:SEAOFBLUE

Done: Figurines made of terracotta... el.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

dating back to -> dating to

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"after a hiatus of over two decades" you've already given the years 1946 and 1969, so this is redundant.

True, removed.el.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"the Italian government funded" I'm curious why the Italian government would be interested in funding this. Was there something about the site that ties to Italian history? You mentioned this funding in the first paragraph of the lead, so I assume there's something particularly significant about it.

The Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs through its development and cooperation agencies regularly funds activities in developing countries. Someone must have applied for a grant.

"Notably ... showcasing": it sounds like you're trying to sell this. Just say what they did and leave it up to the reader to decide now notable it is.

alright. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:13, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I'll pick this up another ~~day~~ year)

Temple style

"corresponding approximately to modern-day Israel, Palestine, and Jordan ": Link Israel and Jordan. Also, earlier, you say "Palestine (modern day Israel)", so is there a need to explicitly call it out here in addition to Israel?

I prefer not link countries.

"the humble proportions of such temples" Does the source say "humble"? This sounds like editorializing.

Edrey 2018, p.185

Then add attribution. Perhaps something along the lines of: The architecture of such temples and their proportions (which Edrey characterized as "humble") ...

Description

"the sanctuary was modified in multiple phases", perhaps "... was built in multiple phases" or "... was modified multiple times"?

done. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

" but remains have not survived,": If there's no remains, how does anybody know it existed? Maybe "... have not survived intact"?

True, especially in reference to the very specific type of cultic image found buried outside of the temple. There is also a wealth of artifacts from the late iron age and Persian period supporting the existence of an earlier building. I fixed the sentence based on your recommendation. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Additionally, the feet of another statue of a different iconographic type, were found by Kaoukabani": delete the second comma. Maybe also delete "Additionally".

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"also discovered, including figurines", maybe "also discovered; these included ..."?

Done. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"large paved courtyard leading to the southwest-facing temple façade" This is confusing. If the walls were aligned east-west and north-south, how do you have one of them facing southwest? Likewise "west-northwest side" in the next sentence. Would it be possible to add a diagram illustrating the layout?

I will do my best to include a diagram. The source diagrams clearly show that the temple is tilted by quite a few degrees compared to the east-west axis. The source text however seems to be overly simplified. I removed the discrepant passages from Oggiano. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"header-and-stretcher bond ashlar" SEAOFBLUE.

Done. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"flanked by Uraei", Uraei in italics to match other use in this article.

Done. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"one advanced foot (one on the right, the other on the left)" Is it known what this alternation of feet symbolizes?

Probably stylistic but I will run a search and see if something comes up. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I'll try to finish this off in one more session sometime this week)

Votive terracotta figurines

"From this period onward". Which period? Iron Age II or Persian?

Redundant, this is detailed in the next paragraph. el.ziade (talkallam) 10:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Link hinterland the first place it's used in the article.

Done el.ziade (talkallam) 10:19, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"the majority of the figurines depicting female and male subjects". If you get rid of the female and mail subjects, what's left?

Deities, in the preceding sentence... el.ziade (talkallam) 10:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other finds

"in the Iron Age II and Persian period phase layers" What does "period phase layer" mean? Specifically, what's the difference between "period" and "period phase"?
"uncovered the remains of lamb". Should that be "... a lamb"?

OK, that's it for me. RoySmith (talk) 01:13, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I see that @AirshipJungleman29 also asked for a diagram, so I'd bump that up in priority. Figure 8 in Oggiano 2022 might be a good starting point. I also notice that @Jengod asked for a map at peer review, which I think would be a good idea. RoySmith (talk) 17:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the thorough review @RoySmith. The map is in process and I will do my best to get the diagram. el.ziade (talkallam) 08:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note

Given the lack of activity and consensus to promote, the nomination is liable to be archived in a few days if there's not additional feedback. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 14:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly, this nomination has seen absolutely no progress since David's note from six days ago, and it has been open for seven weeks now. I'm afraid I'm archiving this now. FrB.TG (talk) 11:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. FrB.TG (talk) 11:31, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.