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This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page.

Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ.

Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time.

The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators:

  • actionable objections have not been resolved;
  • consensus for promotion has not been reached;
  • insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or
  • a nomination is unprepared.

It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support.

Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed.

An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback.

Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere.

A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}.

Table of ContentsThis page: Purge cache

Featured content:

Featured article candidates (FAC)

Featured article review (FAR)

Today's featured article (TFA):

Featured article tools:

Nominating edit

How to nominate an article

Nomination procedure

  1. Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived.
  2. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page.
  3. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance.
  4. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page.
  5. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead.

Commenting, etc edit

Commenting, supporting and opposing

Supporting and opposing

  • To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process.
  • To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria.
  • To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive.
  • To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice.
  • For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems.
  • If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Nominations edit

Sam Manekshaw edit

Nominator(s): Matarisvan (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Sam Manekshaw, one of only 2 Indian generals and the first one promoted to Field Marshal rank. I previously nominated this article for FAC two times. The first FAC, to be found here failed for a bunch of reasons, the article was not mature then. The second FAC, to be found here, failed because I had lost access to 3 books I had cited, and a reviewer could therefore not do the spot checks. I have replaced all citations to those books with accessible sources, and I'm looking forward to work with all reviewers. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Changi Airport MRT station edit

Nominator(s): ZKang123 (talk) 05:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Putting this up again after I withdrew a previous nomination to work on another article. This article is about Changi Airport station which serves Changi Airport and is one of the most iconic stations on the Singapore MRT network. ZKang123 (talk) 05:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alia Bhatt edit

Nominator(s): Krimuk2.0 (talk) 11:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the FAC grind after very many years with another Hindi film actress bio. Might be a bit rusty, but looking forward to constructive comments to get this one to its best version. Cheers! Krimuk2.0 (talk) 11:02, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • File:Alia_Bhatt_at_the_promo_launch_of_'Student_of_the_Year.jpg: source link is dead. Ditto File:Alia_Bhatt_2016.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nikkimaria: alt texts added. I've replaced the former pic with a different one that has a working source link, and have updated the sources of the latter pic. Thank you for the review! Krimuk2.0 (talk) 17:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 edit

  • Is there a citation in the lead's first sentence as it is particularly controversial information or wording?
Her British citizenship leads to a lot of vandalism/edit-warring, which is why the refs & hidden note were added.
  • I'd revise "troubling circumstance" in the lead as it is pulled directly from the CNN quote in the article.
  • This part, (One of India's highest-paid actresses, Time magazine), is referring to Time as one of the highest-paid actresses.
  • By "victim of drug abuse", do you mean drug addict? If so, I'd use that. The current version reads a tad sensationalized to me.
"drug addict" wouldn't technically be correct in this context, coz in the film, her character is forcefully fed drugs, so a "victim of drug abuse" seems more apt.
  • I do not know about the "titular prostitute" phrasing. I get it is more descriptive, but why not "title character"?
  • Do you know anything further about where she was born other than just the country?
This has been a bit controversial, and no definitive information exists about it.
  • I have a clarification question based on a discussion on the talk page. That discussion claims that India does not allow for multiple citizenship. So is Bhatt no longer an Indian citizen? Would it be worthwhile to clarify that? Also, when did she get her British citizenship? Some further context may be helpful.
Well, India doesn't allow dual citizenship, and she is a British citizen by birth. Unfortunately, no other definitive information exists beyond this.
Apologies in advance for the stupid question. My knowledge about India is extremely limited. How is she a British citizen by birth if she was born in India? I get that according to the citation that she has a British passport, but as an outsider, I am unsure on this. Aoba47 (talk) 14:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Times in the UK reported that her mother is British, which is why she has a British passport.
  • I do not think it is necessary to say "has said" for the quotes. I believe you can just say "said".
Yep, removed.
There are still a few instances of this in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 14:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This quote, ("I don't remember much of the shoot. I would go to the sets only for the food"), seems unnecessary to me.
  • This quote, ("a washout. Not only is she inelegant in the dance numbers, but her expressions are limited; and the digital retouching of her face throughout the film is a distraction"), is rather long. I think it would be better to paraphrase it.
  • I am uncertain about this part, (Bhatt was keen to play a better role). It implies in Wikipedia's voice that Student of the Year was a bad role, and I think that should be avoided for something more neutral.
  • I would avoid one-word quotes like ("surprise" and "stupendous") as it does not really add much to the article.
  • This sentence is trying to convey too much information: (She played a Punjabi girl who has an affair before her wedding, in Humpty Sharma Ki Dulhania, directed by Shashank Khaitan, which was described as a tribute to Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge (1995) by Johar.)
  • What is meant by "accomplishments" in this sentence: (Her accomplishments in 2014 established her career.)? Critical reviews? Box office? It also seems a bit tacked-on at the end of the paragraph.
Removed and condensed.
  • Would it be possible to find a link for "a ghetto dialect"? I am an American and I likely have a very different reading on this.
Linked and changed wording.
Tweaked the wikilinks so people can read up on the nepotism debate caused due to his death.
  • I am unsure of this sentence: (The year 2022 was key for Bhatt.) I get it is a topic sentence, but I am not sure if it is worded the best, particularly when done in Wikipedia's voice.
  • Memoirs of a Geisha is about sex work to some degree, but I would not lump geishas and prostitutes together generally. I just do not really think of Memoirs of a Geisha under the header of "films about prostitution" as done in the article.
  • Because Bhatt's personal life is so separated into its own section, this sentence came off as very abrupt: (Filming and release were delayed by a few months due to her pregnancy.)
Is there any other way you'd suggest to include this?
  • For this part, (the unplugged version), is "unplugged" referring to an acoustic performance? If so, I'd use "acoustic" instead.
  • In the "Singing and stage performances" subsection, there are a few sentences that start with "In X year". I would be mindful of that as it does make the prose less engaging and come off more as just a listing.

Welcome back to the FAC process. This review goes up to the "Personal life" section. Apologies for not doing it all in one go. I hope that these comments are helpful. I will continue my review once everything has been addressed. I hope you have a good weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 02:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So good to have you review my work again, Aoba. Looking forward to the rest of your comments. :) Krimuk2.0 (talk) 06:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that I could help. Thank you for addressing everything. I will post the rest of my review momentarily. I have left two responses above. One is a clarification question and the other is pointing out that there are still instances of "has said" in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 14:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about missing out on those. Should be done now. Krimuk2.0 (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was recently added to the article: (As per the Netflix engagement report, it received nearly 110 million views, making it the second most watched film in the second half of 2023.) I wonder if there is a way to condense it. Something like (According to Netflix, Heart of Stone was the the second most watched film on the platform for the second half of 2023)?
Trimmed it further to just say "The film had strong viewership on Netflix", which I think is sufficient for her bio.
  • I think it would be worth linking trolling.
  • I would condense (for being a beneficiary of nepotism) to (for benefiting from nepotism).
  • I am not entirely sure of the relevancy or need for this part, (which journalist Malavika Sangghvi described as an extension of the dumb blonde stereotype). It is already established that people were trolling her intelligence based on this so I do not think that this specific journalist and this specific stereotype adds much beyond that.
  • Is "clicking pictures" is correct? I am mostly seen it as "taking pictures".
  • This is more an observation, but I am unsure about the third paragraph of the "Media image and artistry" section. It comes off more like an indiscriminate listings of lists that involve Bhatt. I would be curious if there was a way to present this information in a more engaging manner. Right now, it seems like a lot of a lot and is a bit repetitious. I am not saying you need to change it, but it is something that caught my attention.
I can understand this, although I've tried to make the text flow in the most engaging way, much like how it has been written in other FAs such as Deepika Padukone or Priyanka Chopra who also regularly feature in such lists.
  • Could you explain to me how works/websites are linked in the citations? I am not entirely sure I follow it. For instance, I do not see The Indian Express being linked.
I've gone through the refs, and have linked the first occurrence of each publication.
  • Citation 27 does two authors in the byline (Neha Sharma and Navdeep Kaur Marwah) so that should be added to the citation. Citation 99 also has an author credited in the article (Namrata Joshi), but not included in the citation. It would be probably worth double-checking through the citations to see if there are any other instances of this.
  • Citation 159 is missing a work/website parameter (in this case India Today).

This should be everything, but once all of my comments are addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I have not missed anything. I have actually seen Heart of Stone so I was honestly surprised to remember that I have seen Bhatt in a movie. Aoba47 (talk) 14:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for the detailed review, Aoba47. Do let me know if there are further improvements to be made. Also, Heart of Stone is one of her weakest films, and definitely not a good barometer to judge her abilities. Haha. Krimuk2.0 (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tetricus I edit

Nominator(s): Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the last emperor of the short-lived but fascinating Gallic Empire, a state that split off from Rome during the crisis of the third century. This article passed GAN some time ago, and I took a run at FAC in the ancient past of 2018 (two degrees and a high school diploma ago) and attracted some supports, but came up short on prose concerns. For reasons that currently escape me, I did not attempt to re-nominate it later, so I am doing so now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 02:47, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:INC-2045-a_Ауреус._Тетрик_I_Старший._Ок._271—274_гг._(аверс).png needs a tag for the original work. Ditto File:INC-2045-r_Ауреус._Тетрик_I_Старший._Ок._271—274_гг._(реверс).png
  • File:Map_of_the_Gallic_Empire,_260_AD.jpg: why is this blurry? Also needs a source for the data presented, and see MOS:COLOUR
Replaced with another (sourced) map, fixed alt text.
Fixed alt text.
@Nikkimaria: Thanks! Believe I have addressed all. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:57, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still having some colour issues. Aren't the two Palmyrenes the same colour? Why does the caption differ? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC edit

Saving a space. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan edit

Hi Iazyges, marking a spot here, will add comments soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 11:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Consider expanding the lead with info from the body? MOS:LEAD says most FAs have a lead with 3 paragraphs, we have only 1 here.
  • "or necessary after his defeat": Consider rephrasing to "or a surrender was necessary after his defeat..."? Former is a bit confusing.
  • "a few years after 274": Do we have the exact date?
  • Isn't the Regnal Name column of the infobox a WP:SEAOFBLUE? Do other rulers' infoboxes have the same template?
  • Consider moving the image of the Antoninianus coin a little further down? Rn it is just below the map of the three empires, and then the rest of the section has no images. Wouldn't spacing them be better, wdyt?
  • " the province of Hispania": "provinces"?
  • "Enmannsche Kaisergeschichte": Offer a translation in the body?
  • In the biblio, consider linking to British Archaeological Reports, John F. Drinkwater, Franz Steiner Verlag, Oxford University Press, Cornell University Press, Oneworld Publications, David Stone Potter, Routledge, Wayne G. Sayles, Krause Publications, Pat Southern, Bloomsbury Publishing, Fitzroy Dearborn?
  • Instead of using PolferA, consider changing the publication year from 2000/1999 to 2000a/1999a? The sfn template allows for this.
  • Are Southern 2015 and Southern 2008 works by different authors? If not, consider using a consistent first name.
  • In the body, you say David Magie but in the biblio you have David Vagi. Which one is it?
  • Could we have a one liner on why Châlons was lost? This would be quite relevant here.
  • Has any scholar ever endeavoured to ascertain the total quantity of coins minted by or in the name of Tetricus? When I looked him up on JSTOR, I found about 20 numismatic papers on the first two pages, each paper listing at least 10 coins, with about 57 more pages I did not open. The total quantity then must be quite high, prob in the thousands, and thus their themes would be more in number than the 12 we have here.
  • Can we have some details on the Barbarous coins by Tetricus I & II? I stumbled upon this on JSTOR.
  • Are there any noteworthy events from Tetricus' work as corrector?

I may post some more comments if the JSTOR results throw up something. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Union Square riot edit

Nominator(s): 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2023 Union Square riot. This was a giveaway of gaming-related items gone wrong, meant to be hosted by Kai Cenat. Any comments are welcome and appreciated. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support from Draken Bowser edit

In the interest of brevity I'd like to change "while not having a permit for the gathering." into "without a permit for the gathering." or even better "without a permit." I would also like for the lead to briefly summarize the consequences, including injuries, property damage and arrests. Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

St Melangell's Church edit

Nominator(s): ... sawyer * he/they * talk 05:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

St Melangell's Church, built over Bronze Age sacred ground, housed a prominent shrine in medieval Wales. The titular Melangell, patron saint of hares, founded a monastery in the area in the 7th or 8th century, and the current church was built during the Norman period. After a period of decline during and after the Reformation, renewed interest in the 19th and 20th centuries resulted in the reconstruction of the shrine and extensive scholarly analysis of the site; an entire journal volume dedicated to fresh archaeological discoveries was produced in 1994. This article was a stub marred by a giant blockquote and some very 2009-style references when I found it, but it was a diamond in the rough. I've been working on this on-and-off for around 6 months, and exhausted every scholarly source I could possibly find on this topic. Since this is my first FA nomination, I recently sent it to peer review to iron it out and put the finishing touches on the article. Thank you! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 05:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC edit

Putting myself down for this. Usually I get to FAC comments within a week, if I don't, feel free to throw popcorn at me. ♠PMC(talk) 05:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC edit

What a lovely article, and hats off for your work on it. On first glance, it looks well polished indeed. A few comments:

  • I don't find the OSM map particularly helpful, since its scale only really shows that the church is in the middle of nowhere -- on my small-ish screen, there's no named or particularly recognisable features depicted. Suggest swapping for a static map of Wales.
    • agreed & done - it was there when i found the article, and i didn't think to swap it out! -s
  • between 1987–1994: better as between 1987 and 1994 (you'd use the dash when saying e.g. "in 1998–1999")
    • done -s
  • reconstructed for the first time in 1958: do we need for the first time here? Even given the following sentence on subsequent reconstruction, I think it's clear enough.
    • done -s
  • A few terms in the lead which you might consider linking: apse, Rood screen, hermit, abbess, nave, liturgy.
    • done -s
  • rectoral and vicarial glebe farmland: this could be made clearer for non-experts: suggest "Church-owned farmland held by the church's rectors and vicars as a glebe" or similar. Can we put even approximate dates on "now" (since when?) and "historically" (in 1980, 1890, or 1380?)
    • done & done -s
  • more isolated than many other popular pilgrimage churches: we haven't actually shown, yet, that it is a popular pilgrimage church.
    • hmm... good point. i'm not sure how to go about that, as adding that it's a popular pilgrimage destination would be kind of off-topic for the "location and surroundings" section, but i do think its isolation is relevant to this section. -s
  • the old village surrounding the church: again, any chance of being more precise on "old"?
    • the source cited gives it as medieval but no more detail, so i've just added that. i've really not been able to find much information about the village itself - when it was abandoned, etc. -s
  • St Monacella's Bed: just to clarify -- in English?
    • as far as i'm aware, yes - her name is almost never rendered as "Monacella" in Welsh from what i've read. perhaps it was scratched by a Romantically-minded English visitor... -sm
  • We should translate Ffynnon Cwm Ewyn and Ffynnon Iewyn ('Ewyn's Valley Well' or 'Iewyn's Well'), as we have for other Welsh names. Any idea who Ewyn/Iewyn was?
    • it wasn't translated in the source, and i don't know Welsh, so i didn't add a translation, but WP:OR says that translation is not original research, so i've added yours to it. no idea who Ewyn/Iewyn is - an 1894 (if i recall correctly) source speculates that the well is of pre-Christian origin, but i deleted that when i was purging some stuff i'm less confident about - i could add it back if the context is needed. -s
  • "Romanesque" is linked in the lead but not the body. So is Yew tree, at least not on first mention (it is linked much later).
    • fixed -s
  • late medieval farmstead: hyphenate as a compound modifier. Also, later, Bronze Age burial mound and early medieval stone slab and a few others. Technically, Middle Bronze Age burial activity needs two hyphens.
    • thanks for pointing it out; fixed -s
  • centuries before the arrival of Christianity in Wales.: when was that?
    • the sentence was kind of awkward and superfluous anyways, so i just removed it -s
  • As we've had "Saint Monacella" a bit further up, with the bed, I think that's the place to explain that Melangell and Monacella are the same person.
    • done via efn -s
  • praying with the hare safely under her hem: I'd put a comma after hare so it doesn't sound like he was also getting in on the act.
    • i feel like that makes the sentence too disjointed - i switched "safely" to "safe" which might make it seem smoother. -s
  • in the 11th century, shortly after the conquest of England (note 12): seems odd not to be precise that the conquest of England started in 1066, which is after all most of the way through the C11th.
    • reworded -s
  • Saints' cults were revived and Normanised: what doesNormanised mean, in this context?
    • unfortunately there is no separate article for Normanization (yet ;]) but similar to the Romanization of indigenous religions of the Roman Empire, it entailed changing of deities' names (or saints in this case), introducing traditions of the conquerors, building new temples/churches, etc. the source cited doesn't give a ton of detail on this process specific to Pennant Melangell, but i've added an efn with some extra context - i'm not super happy about having two efns so close together, but i feel that the paragraph would be kind of bloated if they were in the text, if that makes sense. -s
  • Before the construction of the church, no definitive evidence exists for a church existing at the site: as written, this is blindingly obvious, though I suspect it's not quite what is meant. Suggest adding "current church".
    • hahaha good point. fixed -s
  • Do we know why it has been suggested that a timber church may have existed? These things are not invisible, archaeologically, and given its extensive investigation you'd suspect something like postholes to have clued the investigators in.
    • several postholes were indeed identified, but i think it'd be a bit SYNTHy to connect that to speculation of a wooden church when the source doesn't do that directly. still, i've added a little bit. -s
  • 2 marks, slightly below average for the Diocese of St Asaph.: can we do any more to contextualise 2 marks (was that a lot?) Might be worth clarifying at this stage that the church is/was in the Diocese of St Asaph; we do in the following sentence, at the moment.
    • 2 marks doesn't really mean anything to me and i'm not sure how i'd even convert that currency, so i've just removed it. as for the diocese, i think it's clear as is and i'm not sure how to reword it.
  • Melangell's cult remained popular until the Reformation: I would attempt to put a date on the Reformation, if we can.
    • that would require a bit of a deep dive into the Reformation in Wales (something that surprisingly doesn't have an article) - i think the wikilink & immediate dating of 1535 should be sufficient for the reader, hopefully.
  • due to the suppression of saints' cults and pilgrimage: similarly, it would be good, if we can, to say who did this and when. Is this a Cromwellian thing, or more to do with Edward and Elizabeth?
    • the source more or less says exactly what the article says; the history of Pennant Melangell in this period is extremely foggy, and i don't think we could really get more specific about who and when as it relates to this church specifically. -s
      • nevermind - i've found a bit that i skipped over prior -s
  • The massive religious reforms: can we say anything about these, or give a link to an article with some more information?
    • i'd think the wikilink to English Reformation in the paragraph would be sufficient for context, as it would kind of WP:COATRACK the section to get into the whole ordeal. i did remove "massive" as it's a bit intense. -s
  • as well: I would cut this: as well as what?
    • done -s
  • the shrine was likely dismantled at this time: wiser editors than me have picked out "likely" in this context as an Americanism; "probably" might be more BrE. See also later it likely would have been threatened and which is likely much older
    • had no idea that was an Americanism - you've caught me! holy moly i use it a lot in this article. done -s
  • Picture captions that are not complete sentences (like A 1795 watercolour of St Melangell's Church by John Ingleby, showing the square cell-y-bedd at the east end should not end in a full stop.
    • fixed -s
  • The walls were plastered and seating was introduced into the church at some point from the late 16th century.: any reason not to put this in chronological order, before the C17th material that precedes it? By "from", do we mean "after", or "in the late C16th or later"? "From", to me, implies that it was a long process that started but didn't finish in the C16th.
    • it was at an unknown point in the late 16th century or afterwards, and it's not entirely chronological because the preceding bit is also quite chronologically uncertain - the shrine was dismantled at an unknown date at some point in that period, in the 16th or 17th century. -s
  • The current church tower was entirely built: I'm not sure we need entirely here. Similarly, later, in the apse was entirely rebuilt.
    • removed -s
  • Ralegh Radford might do with an introduction here: most readers, I think, will be expecting him to have been an architect.
    • done -s
  • Meifod parish priest Paul Davies' wife recovered from cancer: this is clunky. Suggest "Paul Davies, the parish priest of Meifod, bought a cottage near the church with his wife, following her recovery from cancer"
    • done -s
  • Cancer Help Centre: why the capitals?
    • it's capitalized in the source, not sure why -s
  • Archbishop Alwyn Rice Jones: archbishop of where? Suggest "Alwyn Rice Jones, the Archbishop of Wales. Might also be useful to note that he was simultaneously Bishop of St. Asaph.
    • done -s
  • The isolated, scenic location of the church was also a notable factor in attracting visitors, and played an important role: consider cutting notable and important as WP:PUFFERY.
    • done -s
  • visitors to the shrine come from diverse religious backgrounds: can we be more specific here? Are we saying that lots of non-Christians left prayers?
    • added some details -s
  • the remains of the medieval apse wall footings, which was semicircular: not quite grammatical here: suggest the footings of the medieval apse wall, which was...
    • good point; fixed -s
  • Initials, like R.B. Heaton, are usually followed by spaces: R. B. Heaton. British English would prefer the architect.
    • fixed -s
  • many of which are significantly weathered: strictly, significantly should mean that this signifies something: if we just mean "severely", "heavily" or "very", we should say that.
    • TIL; fixed -s
  • It is not known what the shrine originally looked like ... The steep gable design of Melangell's shrine: we seem to have contradicted ourselves here.
    • clarified -s
  • such as the 'willow' and 'half-pear': MOS:' disapproves of scare-quotes like this: the most MoS-aligned thing to do would be to use double quotes, or something like those known as "willow" and "half-pear".
    • went with regular double quotes -s
  • There's a bit of overlap at the moment between the "History" and the "Architecture" section; in many places we seem to be telling the story of demolitions, renovations and restorations twice. I'd suggest having a think about the best way to order and relate this information, and trying to do it only once.
    • i'll work on streamlining some of the repetition here - i can't really think of any way to reorganize the article that wouldn't be pretty clunky and incongruous with other church articles, so i'll just reword some stuff in the architecture section & move a couple sentences around; shouldn't take too long. -s
  • Strictly, Asen y gawres is the Giant's rib.
    • done -s (i appreciate your knowledge of Welsh saving me here haha)
  • large whale rib of uncertain purpose and origin: Suggest reworking slightly: its origin is, at least on one level, pretty obvious.
    • switched "origin" for "provenance" as more precise -s
  • I'd give a date for the Victorian era.
    • i don't think that's entirely necessary, as the wikilink gives you the dates of the Victorian era in the first sentence -s
  • it was painted over with a Hanoverian coat of arms in the 18th century, and then plastered over.: as written, it sounds like it was plastered over as soon as the paint dried.
    • switched to "later" -s
  • An 1886 copy on wood was located on the altar: was located -- what happened to it, do we know?
    • unfortunately the source doesn't say -s
  • Welsh priest John Parker: I'd put a date on him. BrE would prefer The Welsh priest. We need a more subjective word than "noted" for a statement of opinion: simply "wrote"?
    • done -s
  • Iorwerth Drwyndwn.: introduce him.
    • done -s
  • Looking here, p. 321, it sounds like there's an alternative theory that the effigy is another Iorweth, possibly (or alternatively) a member of the Rhirid Flaidd family. The wolf connection would certainly be worth a note, I think. The same source has another suggestion for the female effigy.
    • Archaeologia Cambrensis is truly a never-ending source for this topic, as somehow i never found this bit of detail. however, i've never seen this claim anywhere else, and there's no author listed (not uncommon for 19th-century scholarship, but not ideal for citations) - i'll keep the tab open, but hold off on adding it just yet -s
  • in which case the effigy would be a cult figure of Melangell: I think we need a probably here: it would be entirely possible for a human being to be depicted with the iconography of a saint.
    • done -s
  • contemporary to the building of the gate: contemporary with.
    • fixed -s
  • What's the logic as to which sources are included in the bibliography, and which are not?
    • sources which are used multiple times are put in the bibliography & referenced via sfns; everything only used once is just given a full citation in ref tags -s
  • Reference formatting is inconsistent as to title or sentence case. I'm also not sure I can immediately work out the ordering system in the bibliography: by date isn't wrong (though it is highly unusual), but how come Heaton and Britnell 1994 comes before Ridgway 1994, but Britnell and Watson 1994 comes after Parkinson 1994? Initials down here also need spacing.
    • chronologically is my personal preference for when there's a large range of time between sources, as in this case. as i'm sure you've noticed, a giant chunk of the sourcing comes from a single volume of Montgomeryshire Collections in 1994 - i've sorted the articles by how they are ordered in the volume originally, but i can order that chunk alphabetically if it's preferred. initial spacing done -s
      • done with the title v sentence case - i just switched them all to title case
  • Sources, in general, should have identifiers: usually that's an ISBN/OCLC/OL number for books and an ISSN for journals.
    • i'll dig into this & add them
  • Historia Divinae Monacellae should be italicised in the source title.
    • done -s

Over to you: let me know if anything is unclear, or if I've got the wrong end of any of these sticks. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

wow I was not expecting such a nice review so quickly! i'll try to get all of this addressed today and tomorrow. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 17:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@UndercoverClassicist i've responded to everything! ball is back in your court (it might be easier to respond to my responses down here, so it's easier to follow) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 22:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
re: identifiers - i do not think Montgomeryshire Collections has an ISSN. it seems to be more or less exclusively digitized by the National Library of Wales, which has hdl identifiers for each volume, but that's it. Archaeologia Cambrensis, however, does have an ISSN but i can't find DOIs for articles from either. it's an unusual system, but the best i've got. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Generalissima edit

Put me down for a source review! Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 17:46, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:St._Monacella,_or,_Pennant_Melangel_Church,_1795.jpg: when and where was this first published?
  • File:John_Parker_Pennant_Melangell_rood_screen_drawing.png needs a US tag
  • File:Pennant_Melangell_Lychgate_1893.png needs a US tag and author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    this catalogue listing says it was made to be published in Thomas Pennant's Tours in Wales series, although i'm not sure of an exact date of publishing vs creation.
    thanks for the swift review! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 06:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Gerda edit

Thank you for a lovely article! I'll comment as a read, and return to the lead after the whole thing. Just for now: you may want to reduce repetitions of the words "church" and "shrine". Sometimes "it" would be not ambiguous, I think.

The infobox is fine. I'd like a larger image, but my way of cheating (St. Martin, Idstein) is perhaps not compatible with FA ambitions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]


  • "no definitive evidence exists for a church existing at the site", - less repetition perhaps?
    • reworded slightly -s
  • is there a link for Valuation of Churches for someone unfamiliar? - value in which respect?
    • the Valuation of Norwich unfortunately does not have an article to link, but i added the word "property" to give the correct sense - it was a recording of all the property values for tax purposes. -s
  • I wonder if you can first describe the changes to the building in the 15th century, and then the higher value?
    • there's not a ton more information about the renovations in the 15th century, as the information we have is based on physical evidence, rather than records. -s
      I didn't mean more information, just the order. -GA


  • too man "also" for my taste in the first para
    • trimmed -s
  • I read "transferred" as a move of location, but understand that it means just to which parish the building belongs, - correct?
    • correct -s
  • I'd move the pic of the shine in the chancel to where that is mentioned.
    • that section of the article is a bit cramped for images, and the shrine being in the chancel is relevant to the paragraph where it talks about how it was moved there -s
      I tried, revert if you don't like -GA

Read until there, more to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Archeoloical ...


Back to the lead

  • I'm mostly happy but would appreciate a hint at how close the building was to demolition, the cancer-retreat, and the pilgrimage beyond veneration of a particular person.
    • added a little bit -s

Again, thank you for an interesting article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt replied to everything - let me know what you think! and thank you for your review :) ... sawyer * he/they * talk 05:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the changes. I wonder if in History, you could mention the key things in chronological order, but order of importance is also fine. Support. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i assume you meant the initial paragraph of the history section, in which case done! and thanks for the support! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 07:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kes (Star Trek) edit

Nominator(s): Aoba47 (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a fictional character played by Jennifer Lien from the sci-fi series Star Trek: Voyager. She is a member of the Ocampa, a telepathic alien species who have latent psychic abilities and a life span of only nine years. Featured in the show's first three seasons, Kes is primarily shown either handling her boyfriend Neelix's jealousy or helping the artificial intelligence known as the Doctor develop his humanity. The character was removed in the fourth season after Lien's unspecified personal issues affected her reliability on set.

Thank you to @J Milburn: for the GAN review back in 2019 and to @Premeditated Chaos: for the help in the more recent peer review. As always, any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance. Aoba47 (talk) 19:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by David Fuchs edit

Not the Star Trek character I thought I'd see at FAC, but I'm interested in reviewing. I do have some broad opening thoughts on first read, though:

  • Is there are particular reason we start with the development and casting information, rather than an overview? Right now while the lead gives a brief introduction, there's no elaboration on Voyager's premise and the characters met, which I think might be a little backwards; as a Trek fan I don't need that context, but I think that it might dump unfamiliar readers into a lot of behind-the-scenes info without the foreknowledge to get why it matters (for example, the appearances section mentions Kes an an alien with a short lifespan, but we've already talked about that in the development, so it feels weirdly restated, whereas what Voyager is even doing there and why she's meeting all these characters you have to wait for 1300 words before there's any explanation.
  • That makes sense. When the article passed the GAN, it had the following sentence in the lead to provide some context: (Set in the 24th century of the Star Trek universe, the series follows the crew of the starship USS Voyager, stranded far from home and struggling to get back to Earth.) Would it be beneficial to add that information back? I agree it is important to make sure the article can be understood by readers completely unfamiliar with Star Trek.
  • I had originally started the article with the "Appearances" section, but an editor in the GAN review disagreed with this approach so it was changed to fit with the structure more commonly used in fictional character articles (i.e. production information before the summary portions). I could change the order of the sections again if that would help. For a different idea, I could revise the "Creation and casting" subsection so it starts with a brief part about the producers coming up with the show's main concept and then transitioning to the background on Kes as she is one of the first characters created. I would of course be open to any other suggestions or ideas. Aoba47 (talk) 23:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It strikes me as a little weird the reception section talks about positive reception of Lien's acting, versus leading off with the reception of the character itself, especially since the lead highlights the latter more than the former.
  • That is understandable. I was honestly unsure about where to put this paragraph. I heavily revised this section during the peer review process. I could divide the section into two, with one subsection about the character and the other about Lien. It would be similar to what I did with Melanie Barnett. The downside would be that the second subsection would only be a single paragraph. I could also move the paragraph to the end of the section. Please let me know if you have any other ideas though. I have been stuck on this section for a bit to be honest. Aoba47 (talk) 22:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As another idea, I could move the paragraph on Lien's acting directly after the more general paragraph about the character. For some reason, I only thought of that option now. Aoba47 (talk) 02:01, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @David Fuchs: Thank you for your comments so far. Take as much time as you need. You have raised some excellent points. I have pitched some potential solutions above, but feel free to let me know if alternative ideas would be better. Apologies for being more cautious and not directly making changes to the article yet. I just wanted to make absolutely sure first. I doubt that anyone would expected to see this character at FAC, but I do often gravitate more toward the obscure topics so that is probably why. Aoba47 (talk) 22:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have given this some more thought. I have added a brief sentence to the lead to give an overview of Voyager, moved the "Appearances" section up, and put the reviews on Lien's acting after the more general one on Kes as a character. I did each in separate edits so that way, it can be easily reverted if deemed unhelpful and the changes can be more easily assessed. I would be more than open to any alternate ideas (like starting with a separate "Background" section). Feel free to revert anything if you disagree. I will avoid making any further major edits to avoid interfering with your review. Aoba47 (talk) 16:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:KesProfileImage.jpg needs a complete FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for letting me know and apologies for forgetting that. I have completed the FUR using wording from the profile image in the C. J. Cregg article. Aoba47 (talk) 13:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC edit

Weirdly, I didn't get this ping, but here I am. I'm a support based on the work done at PR, which I basically treated like FAC. ♠PMC(talk) 14:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the support. I likely messed up the ping somehow. I did not get a notification on my end that it went through. Apologies for that. Thank you for your help as always! Aoba47 (talk) 16:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review:

The only concern I have with the prose is the first sentence of the second paragraph of "Background and introduction", which is quite long. I suggest that this is split into multiple sentences.

  • That makes sense. I have split it up into multiple, smaller sentences. Aoba47 (talk) 00:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lede and infobox check:

  • "Set in the 24th century of the Star Trek universe," Could not find in the article body
  • Removed. I do not this part was really necessary for readers to understand the summary of the show's main premise. Aoba47 (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reaction to Kes was negative;"... "Kes was considered a fan favorite and Lien received positive reviews for her acting." This confused me, as it seems to be saying that reaction was both negative and positive. When I read the reception section, I also got the impression that she was initially positively received. I think the wording needs clarification, with discussion on who and why they reacted negatively and that the reception was split between reviewers.
  • I must have forgotten to update the lead after changing the "Reception" section during the peer review. I have revised it now, but let me know if further work is necessary. The character received mostly negative reviews in what I could find. There is only one positive critic review in the first paragraph of the "Reception" section. I never got the feeling that critics particularly liked the character even from the beginning. There was some negative response to her removal from the show, but that is separate. It seems like viewers liked her more than critics, and I have hopefully clarified that point. Aoba47 (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mother and father are not mentioned in the article, so I'm not sure they should be mentioned in the infobox.
  • Removed. I do not think the parents are notable enough to discuss and source in the actual article so they seem unnecessary to include in the lead. Aoba47 (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Linnis is not mentioned in the article, so I'm not sure they should be mentioned in the infobox.
  • Linnis is Kes's daughter from the timeline shown in the episode "Before and After". The article does mention her, but does not name her. That being said, she is a one-episode character and I do not think it is really worthwhile to name her in the prose (and potential give her undue weight) so I have remove her mention in the infobox. Aoba47 (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her position as "field posting" is not explicitly stated in the article body. I'm not familiar with the franchise, so is this mentioned in the article body?
  • Star Trek often focus on Starfleet officers with rank being important to the character. An example is Harry Kim being an ensign. Kes is not part of Starfleet so she does not have a rank. It seems pretty unnecessary and potentially confusing to point that so I have removed that part from the infobox. I have also removed "Affiliation" and "Posting" parameters as they seem unnecessary as well. Aoba47 (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my thoughts. Please ping me when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Z1720: Thank you for your review. I believe that I have addressed everything, but let me know if anything needs further revision. Hopefully, the article was not too confusing to someone unfamiliar with Star Trek. Aoba47 (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. All concerns have been resolved. Z1720 (talk) 00:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Qalaherriaq edit

Nominator(s): Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is on Qalaherriaq (AKA Erasmus Augustine Kallihirua and many, many other names), a young Inughuit lad who served as a interpreter (after an essential abduction) in the 1850s, converted to Christianity, and tragically died at around 22. This was my first article in a series on Inuit interpreters. I have tried to squeeze as much as I can out of these sources, and it's the kind of story I'd like to run at TFA down the line :3 Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Why two copies of the same image?
  • File:Qalaherriaq, 1850s, Inughuit hunt (cropped).jpg is missing alt text
  • File:Qalaherriaq_signature.svg needs a US tag. Ditto File:Qalaherriaq,_1850s,_Inughuit_hunt_(cropped).jpg, File:Qalaherriaiq_map.jpg, File:Qalaherriaq,_Buried_Esquimaux.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alrighty, licensing and alt-text should all be fixed. I originally had two of the same because I wanted to show both angles of the double-portrait but also thought the front-facing was the best image of him... but I was able to find a good-quality scan of an 1855 drawing of him, and that I think is a step up. Generalissima (talk) (it/she)
      • When and where was File:Qalaherriaq_signature.svg first published? Ditto File:Qalaherriaiq_map.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Signature is from a letter which was later stored in archives, which I guess counts as unpublished. The map I realize was not included in the book about the subject and is also unpublished. Corrected this. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:48, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sawyer777's comments edit

will be back later; ping me if i seem to have forgotten about it! ... sawyer * he/they * talk 05:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • (in Wolstenholme Fjord section) especially during an era marked by severe hardship for the Inughuit. some context may do well here - what was particularly hard about this era, compared to other periods of Greenlandic history? ... sawyer * he/they * talk 08:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Pickersgill-Cunliffe edit

  • Suggest including the "HMS" in the ship links, looks awkward splitting it up
    • Fixed. - G
  • Forsyth was a commander, not a captain
    • Fixed. - G
  • A word or two introducing what Prince Albert and Assistance were doing in the area when first mentioned would be useful. They're currently thrown into the text a little haphazardly
  • John Ross should be Sir John Ross - also maybe a word to note that he wasn't actually part of this official search party?
  • The text raises some confusion over the different groups of ships looking for Franklin. Initial reading suggests that Penny and the Assistance groups (you should also note who was leading this, because it's currently unclear with the first mention of senior officers being both Forsyth and Ommanney) were separate, but we then get "Ommanney and Petersen returned..." which suggests otherwise. The text should more obviously explain the makeup of this group of ships, what it was doing and who was a part of it
  • Considering there's no link, a word or two prefacing what exactly Prince Albert is would be useful
    • Fixed. - G
  • "Snow's" - give his full name and explain who he is, why should the reader find his account impactful?
    • Done. - G
  • Link brigs
    • Done. -G
  • Per above, if you're going to preface a ship with its type then do that for all of them
    • Okay, done. - G
  • Suggest redlinking ship names where appropriate, e.g. HMS Sophia
    • Done. - G
  • Do we know anything about Lady Franklin? She isn't showing up in any of my lists of Royal Navy ships
    • Ah, she's not Royal Navy it turns out! Private ship built for the purpose. Corrected. - G
  • "the life of the party" is there a particular person attributed to this quote?
  • "and do not reflect"
  • Link midshipman
    • Corrected. - G
  • "an Assistance midshipman" suggests there were others, when actually Markham was the only one in the expedition
    • Oh, good point. Corrected. - G
  • "of the Franklin expedition"
    • Fixed. - G
  • "Qalaherriaq was placed in St Augustine's College"
    • Fixed. - G
  • "Qalaherriaq had suffered"
    • Fixed. -G
  • "Captain Ommanney"
    • Fixed. - G
  • Split out the links for Edward Feild and Bishop of Newfoundland
    • Fixed. - G
  • Suggest adding a conversion for the £25
    • Added. - G
  • "Memorial University.)" Move full stop outside of bracket
    • Good catch, fixed. - G

Some initial comments here. I will look to come back at a later date for another read through. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tiger edit

Nominator(s): LittleJerry and BhagyaMani

I've avoided doing this article for years since there are already felid FAs including lion and jaguar, but the tiger is in a category of its own. Its the most iconic animal of Asia and one which many would consider their favorite animal. Its absence from mammal FAs has left a gaping hole. We've worked on this article for months, preening through each line and cite and rewriting along the way when needed. It has had a peer review. Special thanks to Wolverine XI and UndercoverClassicist.

PS. This article can't make it to the front page in time for International Tiger Day on July 29 this year, but I'll like to save it for next year. LittleJerry (talk) 15:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LittleJerry: (close the peer review) 750h+ 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did. LittleJerry (talk) 15:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship edit

The most majestic creature to walk this earth, in my mind. Will certainly make time for this. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jens edit

Will try to have a closer look soon, but it seems the subspecies table needs work (below some nitpicks just on the table that immediately struck me, but I guess there are more, so it would be great if you could re-read it to clean it up):

  • The table contains information that should better be discussed elsewhere (e.g., "Linnaeus's scientific description of the tiger was based on descriptions by earlier naturalists such as Conrad Gessner and Ulisse Aldrovandi" – that clearly should rather be the second sentence of "Taxonomy", just after Linnaeus description is mentioned, no?).
Done. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bengal tiger skins in the collection of the Natural History Museum, London were described as bright orange-red with shorter fur and more spaced out stripes than northern-living tigers like the Siberian tiger – why has the Natural History museum to be mentioned here (unnecessary detail?), and isn't there a recent source for this quite obvious feature (you cite a paper from 1939 for this)?
Revised. No more recent source than Pocock (1939)'s article with descriptions of skins in this apparently huge collection. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Authors are not properly introduced with full names (e.g., you say "Illiger's description", seemingly assuming that the reader already knows that Illiger described the subspecies).
Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Illiger's description was not based on a particular specimen, but he only assumed that tigers in the Caspian area differ from those elsewhere. – why "but" rather than "and"?
Revised. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should the column be named "Population" instead of "Populations"? The column "image" is singular, too.
Done. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • with long hairs and dense coats – should that be "long hair" and "dense fur"?
Done. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • reach as far west as Turkey – "reaching"?
Revised. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was noted to have"; "It was also said to have"; "The skull is described as"; etc. – Why use such convoluted wording? Any reason why simply "It has", "The skull is", etc. won't work? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 01:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. BhagyaMani (talk) 07:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Outer Wilds edit

Nominator(s): PresN 02:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Outer Wilds is a game that's hard to explain: not because it's complex, but because the less you know going into it, the more you'll get out of it. All you ever have in the game is what's in your head, so I'm doing you a disservice by nominating this if you ever plan on playing it. But I'm doing it anyway, because for a subset of people (myself included), Outer Wilds is the best experience they've ever had with a video game, and I wanted to share that in an article. It's a GA and polished and ready for review and this isn't my first (or 20th) rodeo at FAC and all that, but really I just wanted people who go cared enough to go looking to know that in 2012 Alex Beachum made a sketch of a game about roasting campfire marshmallows while the sun explodes, and a little over seven years later what it became won the video game BAFTA for game of the year without losing that heart. I enjoyed writing this, and I hope you enjoy reviewing it. --PresN 02:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Pending comments from NegativeMP1 edit

I have never played this game, and I'm not sure if I ever will. I can't tell if this means I am the perfect candidate to review this from the perspective of a casual reader, or if it makes me one of the worst candidates. I'll drop some comments in the coming days. λ NegativeMP1 04:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the outlook of my schedule in the coming days, it seems I'm going to be doing this review while on mobile and also not in the country. I intend on squeezing in time to review this anyways, but I'll have to be breaking up my comments by section over time. Hoping this is fine with you. λ NegativeMP1 05:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
  • File:Outer_Wilds_screenshot_nomai.png: suggest elaborating the FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:41, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jaguar edit

Comments to follow soon. ♦ JAGUAR  22:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draken Bowser edit

Reading. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:39, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Savage (soldier) edit

Nominator(s): Grosseteste (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 15th century knight Sir John Savage, who was one of the main commanders of the Tudor forces at the battle of Bosworth Field and a close companion of Henry VII. I significantly edited this article a number of years ago and subsequently it was raised to GA status. I believe it to be close to the required standard to be raised to FA status and would have initiated this review at that time if I had had the time. I would greatly appreciate some feedback as to what would need to be done in order for this review to be supported. Kind regards, Grosseteste (talk) 13:36, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:Coat_of_arms_of_Sir_John_Savage,_KG.png is missing a tag for the design. Ditto File:Arms_of_Arnold_Savage_(d.1375).svg
  • File:King_Edward_IV.jpg: the given tag requires that the image description includes information on steps taken to try to identify the author, and when was this first published?
  • File:John_Howard,_1st_Duke_of_Norfolk.jpg is incorrectly tagged. Ditto File:Archbishop_Savage.png. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria, sorry to be somewhat obtuse (not intentionally so) could you please explain what you mean by alt text, fixed px size and these tagging issues, I've been away from editing for some time but I'm sure I'll pick it up and I will endeavour to resolve these issues. Many thanks and best regards, Grosseteste (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alt text is an alternative description added to an image to support those who are unable to see it to understand what it is meant to depict. Fixed px size is a set image size in pixels, which is discouraged because it overrides user preferences. Tags give information about the copyright status and reuse of an image, and must be sufficient to identify why a particular work is free or in the public domain in the US and (if hosted on Commons) in its country of origin. Does that help? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for your response Nikkimaria. I have removed all fixed pixel sizing from images and I have added more detailed alt text (I believe this has addressed the issue of the description not being specific enough). As for the tagging issues, how would I go about resolving those. Most of the images used were uploaded by other editors and were already on commons. How do I add tags to these images after the fact. To address one specific tagging remark, the portrait of Edward IV is held by the National Portrait Gallery in London and their records merely state that the artist is unknown - Thanks again for your help with this (and understanding as I am sure you do not often receive so many questions!) Kind regards, Grosseteste (talk) 15:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wrt to alt text, it looks like what you've done is edit the captions - those are different things from the alt text. Check out WP:ALT for more details.
Wrt tagging and image description pages, after the image is uploaded you can edit the image description page as you would any other page. So for example, to add steps taken to try to identify the author, you just go here and add that information. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the clarification Nikkimaria. I've added alt text to all images now and will try and provide some further information to the images so that they are correctly tagged Grosseteste (talk) 16:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review and source review edit

This version reviewed.

  • IB: Not sure all those relatives are necessary, esp the general familes.
  • Can you separate your footnote from your citation (so no [1][1])
  • Thos Stanley does not need to be disambiguated as 'the elder' as his son has not been mentioned, and even when he is, the Lord S. who d. 1459 is the only lord.
  • Clarify "Sir John Savage died three years before Stanley"; otherwise, which Stanley is referred to?
  • "Which included Clifton"
  • The second section on the origins of the family should come before the bit about the article topic specifically
  • "his younger brother": John Savage's.
  • Thos Savage became Abp of Yor (a career). His younger brothers became knights (events). The younger brothers may have been knighted, but those weren't their careers, which, of course, was royal service.
  • Personally, I'd call the gentry the gentry for this period. "County" is more of a modernist analysis, whereas the late medieval gentry was literally the political class and not just in the localities.
  • Stanley the younger: Sir Thomas Stanley, as he doesn't inherit the barony for another 15 years.
  • Link Elizabeth Woodville; she's a queen, not the lass what eats the dung.
  • "The now knighted...". We know. Stick to just calling him Savage per MOS:SURNAME.
  • Replace "later that same year" later that years with "April... the following month"
  • "as well as" doesn't work when discussing events 11 years apart. New sentence, something like, "In 1482 he returned to military service, joining the King's brother..." etc.
  • The parenthesised text can be folded into this new sentence.
  • "Aiding them to victories", etc. doesn't really make sense; the important thing is that they won, but even that's not directly relevant to the article, as he would have been personally responsible for neither an English loss nor victory.
  • Check your duplicate links (This script will create a link in your left-hand sidebar and will highlight them for you automatically). Specifically, I noticed that you have King Ed unlinked in 1471 but then you link—on first name terms!—"close to Edward".
  • Lose "he was later found worthy" etc, as it reads like a press release. Stick to something like "Following Ed's death in April 1483, Savage acted as a pallbearer at the royal funeral".
Pausing at this point.


Thanks very much for your review Serial Number. There were some very useful suggestions here which I have taken on board and put into place.

Those which I have not yet enacted.

1) On the separating the footnote from the reference to avoid [1] [1] , I had noticed this but can't seem to separate the two. Is there a simple way to do this?

2) Clarify "Sir John Savage died three years before Stanley"; otherwise, which Stanley is referred to? Do you mean the line that says Savage died three years before his father? As I could not find a line similar to the one you quoted.

3) The second section on the origins of the family should come before the bit about the article topic specifically Could you explain what you mean by this? I presume you mean the Ancestral background section but this is the first section of the article. - Edit - I realise now you probably mean the Family section and thus will incorporate this with the ancestral background section or move it up.

4) Could you please tell me how you install scripts, as I note that you recommended this in the source review section also and I imagine that these could both prove very useful.

Thanks again for your suggestions and advice, I will try and address the referencing issues shortly!Grosseteste (talk) 16:30, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

I'll do this after you've got a couple of reviews in. It's a nice bookend to Sir Thomas Neville, of the other side of the parish  :) ——Serial Number 54129 15:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime, some formatting points:

  • You're missing several publisher locations, chapter page ranges and in some cases ISBNs or OCLCs. Install this script, it will highlight all the technical stuff FACs reuire in their source reviews.
  • For your primary sources, format them (using {{Cite}} template) as you have your secondary material.
I've done a fair amount of reviewing (quite a lot of copyediting required but not insurmountable so), but I'm taking a pause to have a look into the sources. I'm seeing some glaring omissions, frankly. There is almost no recent scholarship from the last 30 years, and this is a period that has been effectively rewritten in that time. Obvious by their absence are Michael Hicks' and Charles Ross's biographies of Richard III (in the Yale Monarchs series). Worse is the absence of material from the reign of Henry VII. Stanley Chrimes's biography is essential; all three of these are into multiple reprints. Probably Thornton's Cheshire and the Tudor state 1480-1560. These are all absolutely fundamental authors and texts, specialists in the reign.
What really highlights the lack of modern scholarship, however, is the reliance on old sources.
  • Crossley's Mediaeval monumental effigies, 1925
  • Shaw's The Knights of England, 1906
  • Williams, The Rebellion of Humphrey Stafford, 1928
  • Weber, Pope Innocent VIII, 1910
  • Seacombe (not Seaacombe), The History of the House of Stanley, 1821
  • Magna Britannia is from 1808
  • Hales and Furnivall is a reprint from 1888
  • Ecclesiastical Memorials Relating Chiefly to Religion, and the Reformation of it is a reprint from 1721 (or 1822 if you prefer!),
  • Armstrong's Ancient and Noble Family, 1888.
    Of the post-war sourcing, the Thorpe Festchrift is sound (although you need to format it properly and include the actual author, chapter, etc, not just the eds); although, to reiterate, it is from 1976 and much work has been done on the period since. Lockyer & Thrush are sound. Ditto Kauffman. The title of the ODNB page you used is more than what fn67 currently says... it omits almost everything. The ODNB editor is also irrelevant; just use the entry author.
    The bottom line is there's a hell of a lot of primary sourcing and very of little of recent years. There's absolutely no harm in the former at all; they can provide colour and detail not available or suitable to the modern scholar, but they only come into their own when they are backed by solid, modern, independent expert scholarship, or what we call "high-quality reliable sources". I think I'll leave it there for the time being. Best of luck with the nomination. @FAC coordinators: ——Serial Number 54129 17:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grosseteste, you need to establish that each source is not only reliable, but also high quality. And that the article "is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". The onus is on you. Frankly I don't think that you can, but am willing to give you some time to prove me wrong. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Gog the Mild, can I ask why it is that you think that? Grosseteste (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan edit

Hi Grosseteste, marking a spot here. On first glance, the lead and body look good but the references are a mess, many sources don't have SFNs, ISBNs or OCLCs. Without these, reviewers cannot do spot checks to see if the information cited is accurate and if it violates copyright or not. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sabuktigin edit

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about a Turkic slave called Sabuktigin who became the amir of Ghazna (in Afghanistan) and founded the Ghaznavid dynasty. He was recorded to summon snowstorms by throwing dirt on the air and became the image of an archetype by contemporary historians. The article was promoted to GA status yesterday, but since I had prepared it with the intent of FAC I've nominated it right away. Thanks in advance. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship edit

Will certainly comment on this! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
  • Suggest scaling up the map
Can't do that one if I'm using upright
Never mind, fixed
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:Coin_of_the_Ghaznavid_amir_Sabuktigin,_citing_the_Samanid_amir_Nuh_II_as_his_overlord._Date_unknown,_minted_at_Ghazna.jpg needs a tag for the original work
  • File:Mahmud_of_Ghazni_first_success.jpg: where is that publication date coming from? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
Updated the info; the author was Walter Victor Hutchinson (d. 1950) and the book was published in 1933.
  • File:Fighting_between_Mahmud_of_Ghazni_and_Abu_'Ali_Simjuri.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Updated the link

Ajpolino edit

Very interesting topic about which I know nothing. Some drive-by comments:

  • "a slave market at Nakhshab... There, he was bought by Alp-Tegin" - A small thing, but Bosworth isn't explicit that Alp-Tegin bought Sebuktegin at Nakhshab. The cited source (2008b) says "he was sold as a slave at Nakhshab, and eventually bought by Alp-Tegin", and Bosworth 2020 says "he was brought as a slave to Naksav... and eventually acquired by the Samanid commander Alptegin." I'd suggest changing the wording here slightly to match the sources better.
Reworded it
  • " 962, as an act of rebellion, he left his position and sought to establish an independent rule in Ghazna," - the cited source (Bosworth 1985) describes Alptigin attempting to secure a preferred successor for the Samanid throne and failing, and therefore fleeing to the edge of Samanid control. Bosworth 2020, summarizes "Alptegin, after a failed coup d'etat, had to withdraw from Bukhara in 961 into northern Afghanistan". Suggest rewording as I don't think the current "as an act of rebellion..." is getting the right meaning across.
Reworded it
I still don't think the new wording "after he fell from grace, he left his position" is getting across the same thing as the source. Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He died shortly after in 963" I don't see this in the cited source (Bosworth 2008b)
Added the source supporting his year of death
  • "the most plausible way to maintain his authority was expansion" this reads as editorializing. I'd suggest cutting it. I see Bosworth writes "...a dynamic policy of expansion may have seemed... the best way to ensure its survival" but I think Bosworth is clearly speculating here, not stating Sebuktegin's views as a matter of researched fact.
Deleted it
  • Bosworth 1985 has a couple sentences on the Sebuktegin's marriage that resulted in Mahmud's birth. Given Mahmud's importance to Sebuktegin's legacy, I'd suggest including the info somewhere in the article.
  • "Qaratigin Isfijabi (d. 929), another rebellious Samanid ghulam" the cited article calls Isfijabi a "Samanid general" but doesn't say he was a slave or a rebel.
Added another source that calls him a Turkish slave commander.
  • "Using jihad as an excuse" - "as an excuse" reads as editorializing. Perhaps rephrase or expand to clarify?
Reworded it
  • "In his Pandnameh, Sabuktigin states that during his childhood, his faith differentiated from his captures, who worshipped a statue, therefore presenting himself as an adherent to the 'right' religion." - Not sure what you're trying to get across here. Suggest cutting this, unless I'm not understanding its importance?
Would this sentence be a good footnote to expand on the jihad against Hindus?
  • Bosworth 2020 says "He successfully combated [Kassa and Simjuri], but then sent Maḥmud with a force against Bukhara in order to intimidate Amir Nuḥ" but this latter episode isn't reflected in the article. Any particular reason?
That statement is not mentioned in other sources. Still, I hinted at the deteriorating relationship between Nuh and Sebuktigin in the next section.

Have to run now, will return later for more. Ajpolino (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second batch of comments, including some small prose things:

  • "expanded his rule down to south of present-day Afghanistan and north of Balochistan" - "north of Balochistan" makes it sound like his territory didn't extend into Balochistan itself; the article implies it did.
  • "opening the gates of India" the figure of speech "opening the gates" seems a bit informal here for an encyclopedia.
  • "As a vassal of the Samanid Empire" (lead) and "he was not bound to any vassalage obligations" (Revolt) - are these in conflict with each other?
  • Typos? "conclution", "compromised",
  • ...shared by later historians... and lived..." - "lived" seems an odd word choice here. Somewhat informal to say a conclusion "lived" on.
  • "later after" redundant.
  • "Mu'in ad-Dawla" - can we get a translation for this alternative name?
  • I don't think "The conflicts among... resulted in enslavement like this one." is very helpful, and I'd suggest cutting it to help the story flow better.
  • "and soon, by the age of eighteen, commanded"
  • "Alp-Tegin served as the head of the royal guard of the Samanid dynasty" - are we missing a superior position? The Bosworth 1985 article says he was head of the royal guard under Nasr, then "Under... Nūḥ (343-50/954-61) he enjoyed great favor, becoming governor of Balḵ and then commander-in-chief of the Samanid army in Khorasa."
  • "1m dirhams" you can write out "million" as you do later in the article.
  • "Fa'iq's men quickly disarrayed Sabuktigin's war elephants, which made him furious." The source says Fa'iq's men killed the elephants. Though I'm not sure this episode is worth including. It's hard to believe Sabuktigin's mood in response to this temporary defeat was recorded as a matter of historical fact.
  • "His war elephants crushed many of Abu Ali's soldiers and chief commanders." not sure this is important enough to include, but either way "and chief commanders" is not supported by the cited source.

I'll stop here for now to give some general comments. I think this article is not yet ready for FAC. Just looking at a few sources, I see several places where the text and the source don't quite align – I recommend going through each source with a fine-toothed comb to make sure it's accurately represented in the article. Also the prose is choppy and could use more work to help it flow smoothly and compellingly. This is a fine base, and it seems there are plenty of sources to support a solid article here. I'd suggest enlisting the help of other editors to finish preparing this for its next FAC run -- whether through peer review or by reaching out to editors with FAC experience. For now, I'll have to gently oppose. Best, Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Addie Viola Smith edit

Nominator(s): voorts (talk/contributions) 00:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article, written for WIR #302, is about Addie Viola Smith, the first woman to serve as a Foreign Service officer under the United States Department of Commerce who eventually worked her way up to trade commissioner in Shanghai and consul at the Consulate General of the United States, Shanghai. Smith was also involved with international feminist activism (with a colonialist and imperialist perspective), often working with her life partner, Eleanor Mary Hinder. Thanks to KJP1 for a thorough GA review. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D edit

This is an interesting article. I have the following comments:

  • Link Department of Labor in the lead
    • Done.
  • "who appealed to Herbert Hoover, the Secretary of Commerce " - Hoover should be linked
    • Done.
  • Who rejected Smith's first attempt to be promoted to trade commissioner?
    • Unclear from the source.
  • "native Chinese women" - is 'native' needed here? It's a pretty yucky term these days.
    • The sources cited used native, I suppose to clarify non-Western Chinese women, but I agree it's unnecessary.
  • Smith's ADB entry noted that she and Hinder spent most of the 1950s living in New York and travelled frequently for the UN; this is missing from the article.
    • Added.
  • Eleanor Mary Hinder is red linked twice
    • Removed second instance outside of lede.
  • There's a likely-PD photo of Smith in 1929 here. Searching in the National Library of Australia's Trove service returns lots of other stories mentioning Smith, though they're generally pretty lightweight looking.
    • Thanks. Most of the photographs from these old newspapers are not great quality; I'll investigate its PD status.
  • It might also be worth including that Smith prepared Hinder's papers to be deposited at the State Library of New South Wales - [1]
    • Done.
  • Likewise, the ADB entries note that Smith and Hinder's home in Sydney was acquired from one of Hinder's cousins. It seems that the sources are dancing around acknowledging that they were likely 'out' to Hinder's family who appear to have accepted them as a couple given this and Smith's connections with the family after Hinder's death. This seems also worth noting given that this kind of thing was unfortunately uncommon at the time. Nick-D (talk) 08:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I haven't seen any sources stating that they were explicitly out to Hinder's family, so I'm not sure how I would frame this without it being OR.
      • I'm suggesting here that you note the various close links like the ADB, etc, entries do which illustrate that they openly lived together (for instance, I just saw a news story on Trove from 1940 that noted that they shared a house in Shanghai together as 'friends'). Nick-D (talk) 01:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick-D: Replied above. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those changes look good, and I'm pleased to support this nomination. Please see my comment above. Nick-D (talk) 01:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

  • "She was the first woman Foreign Service officer" - I think maybe "She was the first female Foreign Service officer" would read more elegantly
    • Done.
  • "Smith studied business administration" - I think changing this to "She studied business administration" would avoid any possible confusion about which Smith is being referred to
    • Done.
  • "the Assistant Director of the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce O. P. Hopkins, denied her application" => "the Assistant Director of the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, O. P. Hopkins, denied her application"
    • Done.
  • That's all I got!

-- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Done. Thank you, voorts (talk/contributions) 22:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Virgo interferometer edit

Nominator(s): Thuiop (talk) 22:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article describes the Virgo interferometer, one of the three interferometric gravitational-wave detectors to have made a detection. This is my first nomination, so I hope everything is up to the standards! Please note that this has been partly peer-reviewed; also, I took the initiative to split part of the article as it had become quite heavy, with the new Ground-based interferometric gravitational-wave search containing informations common to other detectors such as LIGO or KAGRA. Finally, note that I am a member of the Virgo collaboration; I have tried my best to keep to Wikipedia standards for neutrality, but please keep an eye open if I failed somewhere (on the bright side, this also allowed me to get most of the article reviewed by experts). Thuiop (talk) 22:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Rolph edit

Nominator(s): Z1720 (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an Upper Canadian lawyer, politician doctor, and medical teacher. This figure's career is characterised by moderate Reform stances and constantly switching between a political life and practicing medicine. I hope you enjoy reviewing as much as I enjoyed researching him. Z1720 (talk) 18:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:John_Rolph_Portrait.jpg: when and where was this first published?
  • Source says it was published 1800-1880, so I have updated that on Commons. Source does not say where it was published, and I do not know how to add that to the existing Template:Inforamtion, so I put it in the description. Z1720 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source says "date" - is that publication date or creation date? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: I am not sure as I don't know how Archives Canada defines "date" on their website. My guess is that it is the creation date as the source is an autographed card and thus was not "published" in a book or album, but rather originally taken for Rolph's personal use. Z1720 (talk) 15:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Third_Parliament_Buildings_1834.jpg needs a US tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:20, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 14:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: Does the above resolve your concerns? Z1720 (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The lead image has a copyright tag indicating it was published before 1929. If I understand your response, you're saying it wasn't published at all - is that correct? If that's the case the current tag will need replacing. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Since there is no confirmation from the source that this was ever published, I have replaced the tag with "never published" licencing templates on the image's commons page. Does this resolve the concerns? Z1720 (talk) 16:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That works. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF edit

I will try to review this soon. Hog Farm Talk 02:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the lead needs some editing - for instance, it is stated in multiple places that he was elected to the Parliament in 1824. In general it seems that much of the first paragraph is duplicated in the following two paragraphs
  • I have done a full edit of the lede, cutting a lot of the information. My goal is for the first paragraph to state why he is notable and the second and third to describe his biography. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known why he returned to England in 1817?
  • I will have to consult Godfrey's book, which I have placed on hold at the library and should have a copy of in about a week. Biographi and Patterson both say that he returned to continue his education, with no special reason given beyond that. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Godfrey explains that he went back to solve financial problems and obtain his education. This has been added to the article (and cited). Z1720 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article doesn't directly address much why Rolph first entered politics in the 1820s - the brief description in Patterson suggests that opposition to the Family Compact and the treatment of Robert Fleming Gourlay were causes - do Godfrey or other sources go into more explicit detail on this than Patterson?
  • I will have to check Godfrey when I get a copy of the book. Unfortunately, the copy of Muggeridge's article that I had access to was missing a page, so I don't have info from that source from 1809-1826. Patterson seems to be giving more of a background of the political scene when Rolph entered politics, so I don't think I can use this. I'll check Godfrey when I get his book but Rolph also did not leave many letters or editorials of his thought process so his motivation for politics might not be in the historical record. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added info about Rolph's discontent with the political clique of the time. Z1720 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • If Rolph was associated with the Reform party, then why did he run as a Tory for the Toronto city council seat?
  • Muggeridge, Biographi, and Patterson do not say why, so I will have to wait for Godfrey's book before clarifying. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made an error: Godfrey says that the Tories endorsed Rolph, not that Rolph ran on a Tory slate. I corrected this in the article and outlined why he was endorsed. Z1720 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead refers to Bond Head as a Lieutenant General - this doesn't seem to be accurate and I'm assuming that's an error for Lieutenant-Governor
  • "After Rolph submitted objections to Bond Head's tactics in the previous election to the legislature. " - sentence fragment
  • The infobo indicates that he was in the legislative assembly until 1870, but the article indicates that he chose not to run for re-election in 1857?
  • Fixed: Biographi verifies that stopped being a legislator in 1857. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's it from me. While I did not conduct a formal source review, the sources used all appear to be sufficiently reliable, quick searching doesn't turn up any glaring sourcing ommissions, and I've skimmed through the Patterson source and compared it to the article. Hog Farm Talk 18:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I anticipate supporting; please ping me when you've been able to consult Godfrey again. Hog Farm Talk 20:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Finally got the book, responses above. Z1720 (talk) 23:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, supporting. Hog Farm Talk 01:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John F. Kennedy document hoax edit

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting little stir was created in the mid-1990s when it was claimed that a new cache of documents had been uncovered that contained salacious details about the private life of the former US president John F Kennedy. The documents, it was claimed, showed he'd been married before his nuptials to Jackie, that he did a deal with a mafia boss to win his senate seat, and that he bribed the FBI's J Edgar Hoover to keep quiet about his (Kennedy's) sex life. The one drawback is they were forgeries – and not very good ones either. Cue much wailing, gnashing of teeth, law suits, embarrassment and criminal charges. This has gone through a full rewrite recently and then been given a thorough going over by Wehwalt and Ssilvers to remove any lingering Britishness in the writing, for which they both have my thanks. All further comments are most welcome. - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support I made edits and comments when the article was in draft.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support I too commented informally while the article was in draft, and on rereading for FAC I find nothing to add. As far as I can see the article is comprehensive, balanced and well sourced; and it is surprisingly well illustrated. Meets the FA criteria in my view. Tim riley talk 16:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks to you both for your earlier comments and assistance - it was much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley edit

  • "Cusack Jr was the lawyer for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, who was appointed as a guardian of the estate of Gladys Pearl Baker, Monroe's mother, in the 1970s." This is confusing as grammatically "who" appears to refer to the archdiocese. I would delete "the lawyer for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York, who was" as not important for the lead.
  • "a written signature had removed a tiny part of a line typed by using a modern plastic typewriter ribbon". I do not understand what a signature removing part of a line means,
  • "Cusack Jr. was also the personal counsel to Cardinal John O'Connor.[13] In the 1970s, a surrogate court judge appointed Cusack Jr. as a guardian of the estate of Gladys Pearl Baker, Monroe's mother. This is the only known connection he had to either Monroe or Kennedy.[14] Cusack Jr. died on October 28, 1985, aged 66. [13] Cardinal O'Connor officiated at his funeral." Putting Cusack/Baker/Kennedy in the middle of Cusack/O'Connor implies a connection between the church and the guardianship. I think the two sentences about Cusack/Baker/Kennedy should be moved to a separate paragraph and the church comments cut down as tangential background.
    I went with keeping them in the same para in the end, although separating them. A separate para was less than a line and just looked lost and stubby. I've kept the church info in for the moment as I think it's good background on the father as a responsible, trusted and upright lawyer, in comparison to his son. I can be persuaded to trim it down if necessary though! - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "audited one of its courses". What does this mean?
    What form the audit took I don't know (ie. audited financially or whether it was a standards audit), as unfortunately the sources do not make it clear. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Guys, in the US, when we say that someone "audited" a course, we merely mean that they attended the class sessions, but did not credit as part of their degree program a grade for classwork. It is done for one's personal educational interest and because one admires the professor or has heard that the course is of high quality. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They also purportedly showed that to keep Kennedy bribed J. Edgar Hoover, the Director of the FBI, to keep quiet about Kennedy's sexual activities." The grammar gets lost here.
  • "archives at Cusack & Stiles concerning a transfer of land from the Kennedy family to the New York Archdiocese". Does this qualify the statement that the guardianship was Cusack senior's only connection to Kennedy?
    I've tweaked the first bit slightly to show it was JFK, rather than the Kennedy family. - SchroCat (talk)
  • Presumably Cusack could not repay in full but is it known whether he paid part or was pursued through the courts to pay?
    There's nothing in the sources, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • An interesting article - one of a number of cases which show how gullible people can be if they think they have got a scoop. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi Dudley, Many thanks for these. Shades of the Hitler Diaries, with everyone over-excited about the possibilities without doing some basic checks first! I hope I've done justice to your comments, which are all done, except where commented on. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Dudley: it's much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Forged_Kennedy_document.jpg could use a stronger FUR and a different tag
  • File:Sam_Giancana.jpg: when and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    File:Forged_Kennedy_document.jpg: Done. I've used one of the 'catch-all' FURs as it doesn't readily sit in any of the others. If you think this isn't right either, could you suggest a better alternative?
    File:Sam_Giancana.jpg: I couldn't find any (although I suspect it probably was), so I've removed this. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    File:Sam_Giancana.jpg is here in the Baltimore Sun, September 26, 1977, matching the date on the back of the photo – and don't notice a copyright marker in the issue (in fact there's a copyright symbol for just one story elsewhere on the page). Hameltion (talk | contribs) 04:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That’s great Hameltion - many thanks indeed. - SchroCat (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

  • "Hersh began including information about the documents into his book" => "Hersh began including information about the documents in his book"
  • "It was during the checks of the documents by NBC television network" => "It was during the checks of the documents by the NBC television network"
  • "His marriage notice in The New York Times stated he graduated" => "His marriage notice in The New York Times stated that he graduated"
  • "The documents Cusack forged supposedly showed Kennedy had" => "The documents Cusack forged supposedly showed that Kennedy had"
  • "Cusack showed the some of the documents" => "Cusack showed some of the documents"
  • That's it :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks Chris - your comments are much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From Tim O'Doherty edit

Marker, ping if I've not started ~10 days from now. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. A few points (might be slightly out of order, did two passes):

  • according to Kennedy's biographer Richard Reeves, she had previously told people both of the affair, and that she wanted to marry the president - MOS:JOB would have this be "the President". Additionally, (keeping in mind this article is in American English) is the comma before "and" needed?
    I think so. I wouldn't have put it in if it were BrEng, but I think it's needed in AmEng. Happy if a passing AmEng speaker corrects it though! - SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the comma is not wanted. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • She later told a confident - confidant?
  • In addition, as of 2024, Hersh has won - is "in addition" needed? "As of 2024, Hersh has won ..."
    I've added to it, rather than removed. If we go with "As of ... then the list doesn't include the Pulitzer, so we need something to link the Pulitzer to the other awards. - SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you need to repeat "pulitzer". How about "As of 2024, Hersh has also won..."? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • testified before the United States Senate subcommittee on Education in 1963 - "US Senate" or just "Senate"?
  • Cardinal O'Connor officiated at his funeral. - is "Cardinal" unnecessary or American English? [insert British wisecrack here]
  • fix the 1960 US presidential election - can we drop "US"?
  • an early, secret first marriage - does the source say how early this "marriage" was?
  • In November 1993 Cusack, Reznikoff and Cloud - comma after 1993 (for the Yanks)?
  • as "a sort of vigorous 9-year-old valiantly combating dyslexia" –[53] - should the ref be before or after the en-dash?
    After, as far as I am aware. - SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ABC did not tell him in advance that they knew the documents were forgeries - haha. I imagine the temperature in that room dropped quite a few degrees after that.
    Unsurprisingly, he wasn't a happy bunny during the interview, from all I've read! - SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link federal prison?
I would not link federal prison. The US system of federal and state authorities is unnecessary to explain. If anyone really wants to know more about federal prison, they can look it up, but the words are clear enough on their faces, and it is not important to this topic to have a specific understanding of which prison system he was sentenced to. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:30, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might do another round but I can't see how this is anything but a support. Very interesting case. Cheers — Tim O'Doherty (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Tim, all covered; thanks for the comments - all much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And a couple of tweaks, based on SSilvers's comments too. - SchroCat (talk) 06:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Had another scan and nothing to complain about. Support. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Tim, that’s great. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UC edit

Saving a space -- another fascinating topic. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some of the forged documents supposedly showed Kennedy's dealings with organized crime: as I read that as written, it implies that Kennedy definitely did have dealings with organised crime, but it's dubious as to whether the documents really showed it (compare "the picture supposedly showed the Queen's lover, Geoffrey Boycott"). Suggest "supposedly showed that Kennedy had had dealings with..." and so on.
How about just "supposed dealings"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would work fine for this bit, but I'm not sure how it would mesh with the rest of the sentence, where we list a whole bunch of other false accusations. On the other hand, it is a long sentence, so there might be an argument for splitting it anyway. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cusack sold the papers through memorabilia dealers for between $6 and 7 million: my usual inflation query.
  • John F. Kennedy, while the 35th president of the United States from 1961 until his assassination in 1963, was likely romantically involved with actress Marilyn Monroe at some point during his presidency: not sure about the while here: it reads awkwardly with at some point during his presidency. Also, technically, he remained the 35th president after his assassination. Suggest "John F. Kennedy was likely romantically involved with actress Marilyn Monroe at some point during his presidency, which lasted from ..."
Or just "while serving as president of..."? I don't think the number is important here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed: I think the dates are important, though. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Biographers differ in their opinions of the length or depth of any relationship, while: I think the point would be clearer if we moved "While" to the front of the sentence: the point is that people believe it happened so hard that the actual fact or not of it is moot for our purposes.
  • and that she wanted to marry the president: suggest "marry Kennedy": it wasn't that she wanted to marry whoever was president.
  • Having the Spoto quote as a pullout (and the last word), in my view, puts the article's weight behind its broad conclusions -- that they were not having a love affair in any meaningful sense, and that Quirk et al were wrong. Do we have a strong enough consensus in the sources to make that claim?
    Yes, I think so. There are degrees of opinion, obviously, but most seem to be in this sort of area. Where Spoto takes a slightly different line to the others, it is in talking about the two being partners in a love affair; the others don't focus on the love angle, seeing it as a more earthy pursuit of two people with high sex drives. - SchroCat (talk) 06:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hm: I think if we are fairly definite that the two were sleeping together, we should adjust the framing of the article to be less conclusive that "an affair" wasn't taking place -- it sounds like what Spoto is really doing is quibbling the meaning of affair rather than disputing what most people would see as the important thing. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I'd rather keep it in. I think we're clear that it is probable that they slept with each other - and don't forget, there is no evidence or proof that there was a physical relationship, just a high probability. The Spoto quote just clarifies the nature of the relationship to some extent, which is important, given what Cusack's forgeries claimed. - SchroCat (talk) 09:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't disagree, but I think the order is important: at the moment, we have:
    They were likely involved -> they likely slept together -> but Spoto says they didn't have an affair
    I think this could be read as casting WP:UNDUE doubt on the sleeping together: I'd perhaps frame it as:
    They were likely involved -> While Spoto says what they had didn't count as an affair -> Even he says they probably slept together.
    UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Done, but I don't think it's an improvement. - SchroCat (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thinking, slightly morbidly, of WP:ENDURE, you may wish to amend to Seymour Hersh, an investigative journalist and political writer, came to prominence... (that is, remove the present tense). Granted, the "as of 2024" section will need changing anyway when that tense is no longer appropriate.

More to follow.

  • Capital letter needed in as of 2024
  • Hersh and Little, Brown and Company: consider Hersh and the publishers Little... to avoid the potential ambiguity/clunkiness of going from one name into a single name composed of many (it sounds as if there were four men here).
  • Little, Brown thought: this is the normal way of shortening their name, but it does read a little oddly: suggest the publisher?
  • Suggest clarifying that both Loyola High School and Columbia are in New York (Loyola is in Manhattan). Is it relevant that Loyola is specifically a Jesuit institution? Can see it either way.
Both Loyola and Columbia are in Manhattan. BTW, does the source specify which undergraduate school he attended at Columbia? Almost certainly Columbia College. Also, the correct name of Loyola is Loyola School (no "high"). -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The school name isn't mentioned, unfortunately - it's just "The younger Cusack, who attended Loyola High School and Columbia University" in the source. - SchroCat (talk) 09:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the title of Samuels 1997, hyphen should be an endash.
  • After his father's death, Cusack & Stiles lent him : would put a date on this. Could we change one of the pronouns to a name: in theory, it could be read that the law firm lent the money to a dead man?
    I was trying to avoid "After Cusack's death, Cusack and Stiles lent Cusack..."! There's no date shown, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 09:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Could we not bring in "after Cusack Jr.'s death, C&S lent the younger Cusack" or something like that? The "Jr." might be a useful disambiguator. We do know that Lawrence X. Cusack Jr. died in 1985, so could add "after [his] death the following year". UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:25, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've tweaked this to "After his father's death, Cusack & Stiles lent Cusack ..." - SchroCat (talk) 09:46, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Works perfectly! UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • When he completed his courses, he went to work at his father's firm: strictly, it wasn't his father's any more, was it? "The firm" would do fine.
  • Both BrE and AmerE would prefer naval intelligence to "Navy intelligence".
  • Cusack had never been either in the Navy or Naval Reserve: technically, the Navy Reserve is part of the Navy, so this isn't an either-or. We should also use the contemporary term consistently: Naval Reserve (as it was until 2005).
I think it reads well now -- it's worth specifying both. The only thing I might change in that phrase is "never *served* in either the Navy or Naval Reserve. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but it's grammatically wrong: it's like saying "he had never been either to London or to England": you either need to clarify something like "to London, or to anywhere in England at all", or to rework to something like "had never served in any part of the Navy". UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • FBI is never spelt out: is it such a common abbreviation that it doesn't need to be? I think the MoS has a list somewhere.
FBI is absolutely unambiguous here. Would European readers find it ambiguous? -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's very clear which organisation, but technically the MOS says to give the full rendering at some point, so I've dropped it in. - SchroCat (talk) 09:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • a precious metals dealer: hyphenate: precious-metals dealer (though I'm sure he was precious, too).
  • verifications on the handwriting: verifications of or tests on, I think.
  • he was not concerned that Cusack's claims were false – instead he was relieved that Cusack was not a spy: personally, I'd always treat someone's internal monologue as unverifiable, and so go with something here like "he later said, in a 1999 interview, that he had not been..." -- we can verify what he said, but not what he thought.
How about just adding "said that", as in he "said that he was not concerned". I think that this confirms that it was something he said (not a controversial fact, I think), and I think it would be distracting to the narrative to lay out exactly when he said it -- the ref supplies the date of the interview. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • August 1996, Hersh and Obenhaus began filming the documentary, but NBC informed them that the network had decided to cancel the project. : that was quick! Any idea of the separation between these two events? We later imply that there was enough time for some text specialists to give the documents a fairly good look.
    Unfortunately not: the sources are hazy on some of the dates. - SchroCat (talk) 09:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obenhaus's research team noticed that two of the letters, written in Kennedy's hand, but on Cusack Jr.'s office notepaper: they weren't actually written in Kennedy's hand: suggest "written on C. Jr.'s office notepaper and purportedly in Kennedy's hand..."
  • printed on an IBM Selectric : add typewriter?
  • which was unavailable until 1973: it might be worth, at some point around here, reminding readers of when Kennedy died.
  • Could we name or at least link Jacqueline Kennedy?
  • Suggest linking dyslexia. Is there anything in any source we can add to the effect that Kennedy was a confident or particularly capable writer? It's not out of the question that a US president would have struggled with his handwriting.
Sorry to disagree on this one, but I don't think we should link dyslexia. Not only is it a commonly-known disorder, but it is a wild goose chase here, as we are not actually talking about anyone's dyslexia. Vidal was being metaphorical. And the legibility or consistency of one's handwriting is not related to his or her confidence or capability as a writer (there is no reason why a US President's handwriting would be any more legible than anyone else), so I don't see how this would be helpful. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
there is no reason why a US President's handwriting would be any more legible than anyone else: well, precisely: in other words, we need some reason to believe that the poor handwriting would weigh against an identification of it as Kennedy's. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry -- reading again, more carefully, I had the wrong end of the stick. Happy here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • instead, interview Cusack and Cloud for an exposé.: purely for prose, I would either add a to before interview or change it to interviewed: it's a long way from the to which modifies its form, making it read as slightly awkward.
  • Jennings asked him directly if he had forged the papers: I would remove directly here: I don't think the meaning changes if we do, and it's always good to omit needless words.
  • Cusack claimed that the documents may be copies of earlier originals: sequence of tenses: may have been.
  • Could a wikitionary link or something help to clarify what Hersh meant by "Big deal" (that is, in very American English, that it wasn't a big deal?)
Isn't there something in the MOS or somewhere that says not to link stuff in quotes, generally? And, again, if a reader does not understand the sarcasm intended, I'm not sure making them follow some links to figure it out is helpful. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:LINKQUOTE says link only to targets that correspond to the meaning clearly intended by the quote's author: this is precisely what I'm suggesting doing here. The clearly intended meaning is not the surface reading that, in particular, a non-native reader may infer. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:21, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's used sarcastically here too, although obviously I don't know about the rest of the world. I think short of adding <sarc></sarc> tags around it, we're going to have to leave it the readers to get the gist - it's a bit too much of an OVERLINKING for my liking. - SchroCat (talk) 09:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair: there's a lot of latitude for individual taste here, and I err more on the side of linking than most. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:42, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, again, but it is helpful here to clarify that this was a jury trial -- not a trial before a judge without a jury. In fact, a criminal defendant can waive a jury trial, at least in some US jurisdictions if not all. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some monetary values are not inflated (I noticed $7 million), though most are.
    I think I've given them where I can safely link them to a base year (from the sources). Where there is no definite date (for example, when he was made a loan by Cusack & Stiles), I've not given an equivalent. Please let me know if there are any I've overlooked, though. - SchroCat (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • a state court. In June 2001, this claim was denied by the courts: how come "court" has become plural here? Was it a NY state court?
  • Per MOS:SOMETHINGOROTHER, footnotes for material in dashes and brackets should go at the end of the parenthesised bit: I'd put note i directly against the number, personally.
Sorry to interject above. Great comments overall! -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • All covered, I think. Please flag up something if I've overlooked it. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure if overlooked or simply disagreed on, but I'm still not wild about the "in the Navy or the Navy Reserve" (compare "he had never supported a football team or Manchester United"). Could do "in the Naval Reserve or the regular Navy" ("regular" in the sense of "professional") if you like? Alternatively, "active-duty" is quite common in American writing at the moment, but not sure if it was at the time. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, I thought it was the word ‘either’ that was the problem, which I removed. Having said that, I think we need to mention both as they are different entities. Your simile is slightly wrong: to extend the imagery, I see it as the difference between the junior and senior teams of ManUre: you’re in one and then move to the other. Both are closely related, but still under the same umbrella. - SchroCat (talk) 19:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not the case here, though, because the Naval Reserve is part of the Navy -- everyone in the Naval Reserve is, by definition, in the Navy. It's closer to "the United Junior Team and United" UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Most Americans are not up on the fact that the Naval Reserve is "part of" the Navy"; until now, I always had assumed that it is an additional, affiliated body. I think it reads smoothly now, while UC's alt suggestion reads less smoothly. But, I guess, UC is technically right, and maybe more military-minded readers will recognize the issue that UC sees. Up to SchroCat. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’ve gone with “joined in the Navy or served in its reserve”. I think we need to refer to both entities (rather than ‘any part of the navy’), as it is a distinct and separate part - and I suspect (without anything in the way of proof except how UK equivalents behave), that members of the reserve will describe themselves as being in the reserve, rather than the navy as a whole. UK army reserves describe themselves as being in the reserves, rather than the army, for example: there is a difference between the full time and part time wings of the organisation, despite the administrative bundling together of the two entities. - SchroCat (talk) 04:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Great -- that works for me. Happy to Support UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Me too. An elegant solution! -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Excellent (although I made a slight tweak to it by removing an "in"). Many thanks as always for going through this and I'm delighted we landed at something much stronger. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Spot-check upon request. There might be additional sources here, but not many I'd think. Sauce formatting wise, the main thing I notice is that ISBN isn't linked the same way in the sections. I presume that this is a reliable source? Does "Winship, Frederick M. (August 7, 1996). "Kennedy Book War Heats Up". United Press International." have a news(paper) name? Is "Weinberg, Steve (November 1997). "Attacks on Style and Substance". The IRE Journal. 20 (6): 6–15." in the right section? I notice that many of the news articles have no online footprint; are they really this obscure? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:11, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks Jo-Jo. In answer to your questions: the ISBNs are all in the book section and are all linked in the same manner. Yes, I think Legal Assistant Today is reliable: is there any reason to think it isn't? No, there's no newspaper name for United Press International, as UPI is an agency (I've included the field "agency=United Press International" in the template). I think the IRE Journal is in the right section as a trade magazine, rather than an academic journal, although it could be argued either way. I've added one further URL to the news reports, but the others don't have links. As this includes at least one article that appeared on the front page on The Washington Post, I'm not sure they should be described as 'obscure', just that practice varies between newspapers. Many thanks for the comments. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Churchwell cite links to a different ISBN article than the others. I was asking about Legal Assistant Today because I couldn't find much of a footprint. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:22, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't understand the point about the Churchwell cite: the templates are all formatted identically and they all seem to render properly. Could you expand on that - I'm obviously being a bit slow on the uptake here. From the research I did on LAT, it seems to be reliable: it ran for ten years from a reputable publisher, no visible complaints about the output. It changed name at some point and may no longer be active, which probably explains the lack of footprint. - SchroCat (talk) 08:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like I was wrong about the links, so nevermind the ISBN thing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cerro Panizos edit

Nominator(s): Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a not-quite shield volcano in Argentina. It is not a particularly remarkable volcano, other than the fact that it was discovered from space imagery and that it is a large volcano in the wider Altiplano-Puna volcanic complex. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:12, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:LandsatLook_Viewer_Cerro_Panizos_ignimbrite_shield.png: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced link, although I don't remember which options I chose on the webpage to find the image. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review.

  • No concerns about the prose. I made minor edits to the article: feel free to revert.
  • In the "Sources", Mazzoni, Mario M. (1989) and Vaquer, José María; Eguia, Luciana; Carreras, Jesica (2018) have titles in all caps, which per MOS:ALLCAPS should be in sentence case.
    Done. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infobox checked and no concerns.

Lede check:

  • "Subduction of the Nazca Plate beneath the South American Plate" is said in the lede, but I think the article body says that the subduction is under South America, with no mention of it being a plate. Should this be more explicit in the body, maybe wikilinked in the body?
    Put "South America" instead. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the lede: "The formation of the APVC has been linked to the existence of a giant magmatic body in the crust of the Andes." From what I gather from the body, this magmatic body is the Altiplano-Puna Magma Body. Should this be wikilinked in the lede? And should the lede specify that the body is in the Central Andies (and not underneath the whole thing?)
    Implemented. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 06:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those are my comments. Please ping when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 01:18, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. My concerns have been resolved. Z1720 (talk) 15:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Liza Soberano edit

Nominator(s): Pseud 14 (talk) 16:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

After tackling two Filipino musician bios, back again with an actor BLP this time. Liza Soberano is an American born Filipino actress who began her career as a model in the Philippines before she ventured into acting. Since then, she has appeared in commercially successful projects primarily with frequent collaborator Enrique Gil, both of whom are depicted in the media as a "love team". Dismayed at being typecast to parts as an on-screen couple with Gil, Soberano returned to the United States in 2022 to pursue an acting career in Hollywood and has since made her breakthrough in the 2024 comedy horror Lisa Frankenstein. Constructive criticism, in any form and from anyone, will be appreciated. Happy to address your comments and thanks to all who take the time to review. Pseud 14 (talk) 16:41, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h edit

Will leave comments soon. 750h+ 02:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "For her performances of a gutsy young aristocrat in the drama series Dolce Amore (2016) and a tribal heroine in the" recommend linking "aristocrat" to Aristocracy (class).
  • "In an attempt to shed her image as an on-screen couple with Gil" I think for conciseness this could be changed to "Attempting to shed her..."
  • "She portrayed a fruit farmer who supervises Gil's character after being forced to work in the plantation." I think this should be "on the plantation". I think though.
  • "...experience, as she did neither understand nor suffered from a break-up." suffered should be changed to "suffer".
  • "Mari-An Santos of the Philippine Entertaiment Portal particularly" Entertainment is spelt wrong.
Thanks for catching this. Fixed
  • "It featured flight sequences which required her to perform stunts while" "which" should be "that".
  • "The series was controversial for whitewashing the cast; Soberano's character was meant to be of indigenous Filipino ethinicty." Ethnicity is spelt wrong too.
  • "Soberano is a gender equality advocate and supports women and children's rights." ==> "Soberano is a gender equality advocate and supports women's and children's rights."

That's all I got @Pseud 14: Excellent work on this article and i hope to see more in the future! 750h+ 08:08, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review and for catching the typos 750h+. All comments have been actioned. Let me know if there's anything I may have missed. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No problem Pseud! I'm happy to support the nomination. 750h+ 22:58, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I promise to not delay reviewing this one- let's take a look!

  • Around this time, she was spotted online, through her social media post, by a talent scout - could be condensed: "Around this time, a talent scout found her on social media and introduced her to..."
Done as suggested
    • Also, what did the talent manager find? Singing videos? Acting videos? Or did they just say "she ought to be a model" (which is entirely possible)
Every source I checked only mentions a social media post and did not detail anything else. So I am of the assumption it was purely based on her appearance and likely the latter.
  • she had already been signed to a one-year deal - seems a bit wordy; possibly, "she had signed a one-year deal"
Done as suggested
  • At his urging - whose urging?
By Diaz, clarified this
  • Her break came the following year - the next para says her breakthrough was in Got to Believe; does this mean "break" in a different context?
Revised this sentence, as her first series (and not necessarily a breakthrough, yet)
  • she found this to be an important learning experience - which show is 'this'
Tweaked for clarity, as this pertains to the show mentioned in the preceding sentence
  • she underwent a series of workshops - acting workshops? singing workshops? learn-filipino workshops?
Clarified as acting workshop, since voice lesson is also mentioned separately
  • she went on to appear - 'she appeared' is less wordy, but I'm unsure if there's a specific reason it's worded this way
Revised as suggested
  • a romantic drama about childhood best friends (played by Dingdong Dantes and Bea Alonzo) who realize they are in love with each other - this detail is more about the film than about Soberano- what did she play? Otherwise I don't think this detail is needed
None that I could find. Removed/tweaked
  • Similarly, the Philippine Daily Inquirer's Rito Asilo remarked that the film's delivery was lackluster and unauthentic - this echoes the previous quote, not sure it's needed
  • as she did neither understand nor suffer from a break-up - this confuses me a bit- I think I know what's being said here, but it's in the wrong order; perhaps "as she had never experienced a break-up and did not empathize with the character" or something of the sort that fits what the source says
Done as suggested (partly), I think "as she had never experienced a break-up" sums up why she couldn't draw from real-life experience
  • She found it in the Netflix animated series - 'it' is kind of vague- she found another genre? Rephrase here
I believe the preceding statement satisfies that, she actively looked for parts in other genres, it would refer to "parts" or "roles" she sought/found in the animated genre. Hopefully that provides some clarity
  • but viewed it to be "almost the exact same cadence" - exact same as what?
Tweaked this to clarify it was her line delivery
  • Describing her off-screen personality, praised Soberano's "humble approach to fame", - no citation after this
Thanks for catching, added now.
  • after the latter achieved international acclaim - one can 'receive' acclaim, or 'achieve' stardom, but I'm not sure you can 'achieve acclaim'
Should be the former. Fixed.
  • In 2017, Soberano topped TC Candler and The Independent Critics's listing of the "100 Most Beautiful Faces in World" - I can't find a citation for this in ref 79's massive list- am I missing it?
It should be in the 2018 ref Liza Soberano No. 4 on ‘100 Most Beautiful Faces of 2018’ list : Liza was awarded the Most Beautiful Face of 2017 last year

That's all for me- amazing work on another huge BLP! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 12:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review MyCatIsAChonk. Very much appreciated. I have provided my responses to your comments. Let me know if there's anything I may have missed or needs clarification. Pseud 14 (talk) 13:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All good now- thanks for the impressively fast fixes! Support. MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 13:58, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support and for always taking the time to review. Pseud 14 (talk) 14:08, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ippantekina edit

  • "at age twelve" can simply be "at twelve"
  • "sought roles in other genres, including the 2021 Netflix series Trese." that's the name of a series, not a genre
Thanks for catching. Added the genre and made some tweaking
  • "In 2022, she returned to California to pursue an acting career in Hollywood, and has since starred in the horror comedy Lisa Frankenstein (2024)" convoluted grammar? Suggest "She returned to California to pursue an acting career in Hollywood in 2022 and has sinced..."
Done as suggested.

I've read up to "2011–2015: Early roles and breakthrough". Ippantekina (talk) 07:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review Ippantekina. I have addressed your initial comments. Looking forward to the rest. Pseud 14 (talk) 16:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider unlinking "breadwinner" as it's a fairly common term.
  • "the film and their performances were criticized for its overdone clichés and formulaic plot" I always favor the active voice, so I suggest something like "reviews criticized the film and their performances for..." plus "its" is grammatically incorrect
Revised as suggested
  • "Soberano learned to speak in Italian"
  • "praised her as the production's prime asset" reads sensationalistic, maybe "praised her as the film's highlight"?
  • "play the part by deglamorizing" am I correct to assume that this means she sort of "glowed down"?
Correct. I think it might have been a term I've read in some actor BLPs that would refer to being a character who is awkward, unkempt, completely unglamorous
  • "The film emerged as a commercial success" suggest "was" (I prefer simplicity y'all)
  • "Filming took place in Dubrovnik, Croatia, and featured Soberano as a struggling overseas worker" this means "Filming featured Soberano as..."? Suggest something like "Filmed in Dubrovnik, Croatia, it featured Soberano as..."
Revised as suggested
  • "the series was ultimately cancelled" but the series did make it to the airwaves right? Would be helpful if we know after how many episodes was the series cancelled.
Yes it did air. TV series in the Philippines are usually aired daily, like a soap opera, and there isn't usually sourcing that provides info on the number of episodes. What is often available online is the premiere date or the show's end date, so I had to go with when it ended and why it was cancelled.
  • "She found it in the Netflix animated series Trese (2021)" found what..?
I believe the preceding statement satisfies that, she actively looked for parts in other genres, and it would refer to "parts" or "roles" she sought and found by taking part in the animated genre project. Hopefully that provides some clarity
That would be grammatically questionable... ("it" = "parts/roles"?). I suggest something like "She found an opportunity with the Netflix animated series...". Ippantekina (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That actually reads much better. Revised and thanks. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Reception for her voice acting" reception of
  • "Kathleen Llemit of The Philippine Star thought that she had "dynamics" in delivering her lines, but viewed it to be "almost the exact same cadence"" what does "it" refer to here?
it would refer to the deliver of her lines.
Ditto, grammatically unclear. I suggest: "Kathleen Llemit thought that her delivery had "dynamics" but contained "almost the exact same cadence". Ippantekina (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Revised as suggested as well.
  • "She became aware of a forthcoming comedy horror film" so this plan has not realized? If so I'd remove it per WP:CRYSTALBALL
It prefaces the next paragraph on how the role/project came about.
  • "Lisa Frankenstein (2024), starring Kathryn Newton in the title role" sooooo is Lisa Frankenstein the comedy horror film previously discussed?
Correct, to answer your comment above.
If so why don't we remove the "forthcoming" thing? I would just summarize how Soberano moved to LA in 2022, got involved with Zelda Williams, and shot the film without mentioning the details of how she had doubts about a yet unnamed film (that's for the film article). Ippantekina (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed "forthcoming" to avoid ambiguity. I've re-read the source and by the time this was pitched to her, it was already greenlit with a name/title and script. Additionally, I would respectfully argue and as I have seen in other FAs for actors, it is generally acceptable to discuss initial reluctance/doubts about projects and what made them accept those roles (unless those projects did not materialize, then it would def not be worth mentioning, IMO). As examples:
  • In Leonardo DiCaprio's article about taking on Jack in Titanic: DiCaprio initially had doubts, but was eventually encouraged by Cameron to pursue the part.
  • Jennifer Lawrence on how she accepted the Hunger Games role: Despite being an admirer of the books, Lawrence was initially hesitant to accept the part, because of the grand scale of the film. She agreed to the project after her mother convinced her to take the part.
  • Anne Hathaway's doubts about doing a sequel to Princess Diaries: She was initially hesitant and nervous about starring in the sequel, but agreed to it after Marshall convinced her that she was not repeating anything.
  • Jessica Chastain on accepting a role for her Broadway debut: Chastain was reluctant to take the role, fearing the anxiety she had faced during her early stage performances.[64] She ultimately agreed after finding a connection to Sloper Pseud 14 (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I personally would leave that information for the film article, but this is not a make-or-break issue so I'm fine with it :) Ippantekina (talk) 02:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She also founded a production company which will produce a yet-untitled drama thriller film" ditto CRYSTALBALL

Will review "Reception and public image" and subsequent sections later. Ippantekina (talk) 04:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ippantekina. Responses provided to your comments. Let me know if I may have missed anything. Pseud 14 (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I replied above; a few instances of dangling modifiers but so far they're not detrimental. Ippantekina (talk) 08:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your responses Ippantekina. Made the changes and provided my response to the last point as well. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Be mindful of MOS:LQ; a few full quotes are not being cited properly
Done (I think). Feel free to edit if there's anything amiss. I still struggle with MOS:LQ from time to time :)
  • "with her "angelic eyes, symmetrical features, a refined nose and lips" as her trademark features" I would attribute direct quotes to sources per WP:ATTRIBUTION
  • "In 2017, Soberano topped TC Candler and The Independent Critics's listing" are these listings notable?
I believe it is, it has been publishing this listing since 1990 and has had coverage in various editions of Vogue[2] [3] [4], as well as US Weekly
  • "She uses her platform to speak out on social and political issues" what's "platform" here? I'm assuming social media, is this the case?
That would be correct. I used it for variation and not having to use "social media" repeatedly
I'd use "social media" as "platform" is too vague a term. Ippantekina (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "She began dating co-star Enrique Gil" I think "She began dating Gil" is enough as Gil has been introduced previously, and his name appears throughout the article
  • "She is reticent to discuss her personal life on social media, and refuses to share posts involving her family" I don't think the comma is needed
  • "A K-pop music enthusiast" err, trivia?

This concludes my review. Overall a nice read. I'm happy to support once my points are addressed :) Ippantekina (talk) 02:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ippantekina. I have addressed and replied to your remaining comments. Let me know if there's anything I may have missed. Pseud 14 (talk) 04:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support on prose though one point remains unaddressed above. Ippantekina (talk) 04:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your support Ippantekina. I've tweaked that sentence and simplified it, hopefully that works now. Pseud 14 (talk) 04:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing everything, I'm happy to give my full support. By the way, I would very much appreciate it if you could give some input to my current FAC for "You Belong with Me". Cheers, Ippantekina (talk) 04:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pantheon ad Lucem edit

Nominator(s): ♠PMC(talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I return to you with another of McQueen's lesser works, the restrained (and frequently misspelled) Pantheon ad Lucem. Like his later collection Neptune, it drew on Ancient Greece with a side of science fiction. McQueen pulled back on the runway shenanigans for Pantheon to focus on design. Critics expected bombast, and reception was consequently mixed; one reviewer complained that the exaggerated hourglass dresses that finished the show made the models look like "Scandinavian- designed salt and pepper shakers." In retrospect, the collection suffers for its placement between two of his absolute bangers - Deliverance and It's Only a Game. Nevertheless, it should be remembered for its beautiful draped garments and artful use of fabric. ♠PMC(talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments edit

  • "Inspired by ideas of rebirth, Ancient Greek garments" - "ancient" doesn't need a capital mid-sentence
    • Oop, I always forget that
  • In the "concept" section, you don't need to say all of "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) is the twenty-fourth collection by British designer Alexander McQueen for his eponymous fashion house." as you already introduced him and his house in the previous section. Shorten to "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) was McQueen's twenty-fourth collection for his eponymous fashion house." And move the link to Alexander McQueen (fashion house) to the point where you mentioned it in the previous section.
    • Fixed
  • "historicism was typical for McQueen." - historicism was already linked above, no need to link again. I also see Doctor Who, Domenico De Sole and eveningwear linked multiple times. Check for overlinking generally
    • Rm and fixed sentence a bit, as well as trimming the wording of the second De Sole mention. Eveningwear link fixed but I left the second Dr Who link as it's a different section and far enough away
  • "Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt designers in general " => "Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt that designers in general "
  • "that he didn't know" => "that he did not know"
    • Both above revised
  • Note a isn't a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop
    • Fixed
  • That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 edit

  • I would recommend adding WP:ALT text for File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 36 (cropped to Pantheon).jpg.
    • Done
  • I have a question about this part, (at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris). Would it be more beneficial to say something like (at the Grande halle de la Villette in Paris) to clarify in the prose that this is a building in Paris? I have not really seen buildings presented this way when discussed with their cities.
  • For this part, (In contrast to his usually-bombastic presentations, the show), I think it would read better if you say McQueen's instead of his. Something about starting with the pronoun in a new paragraph reads a bit off at least to me.
    • Above both done
  • It might be helpful to make the quote box in the "Background" section a bit thicker to avoid any potential interference with the following section depending on how readers access and view the article.
    • Upped from 25 to 30%
  • The second paragraph of the "Background" section has multiple sentences in a row starting with a year or a set of years. If possible, I'd try to change at least one instance of this to avoid the prose from appearing like a listing of dates and events. I could just be over-thinking this though so feel free to disagree as it is rather minor.
    • I made a couple tries at writing around this but I couldn't find anything I liked. If this one isn't a sticking point for you, I think I'm going to leave it as is.

These are my comments for the lead and "Background" section. Apologies for doing a more piece-meal approach to this one. I unfortunately do not have the time today to thoroughly read and review the full article, but I wanted to at least get started. I do not see anything major, and my comments are mostly nitpicks. Aoba47 (talk) 21:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New rule, no more apologies between friends :)
  • As noted above, the "ancient" in this part, (from the loosely draped style of Ancient Greek garments), does not need to be capitalized. I did not see any other instances, but it may be worth double-checking to just make sure.
    • Oops, fixed
  • I would attribute the following sentence: (These items may also have been influenced by Tunisian designer Azzedine Alaïa.) Since it is discussing something that may be an influence, I would clarify in the prose who made this interpretation.
    • Done
  • I have a clarification question about this part, (and eyes slanted artificially with invisible tape). Did any critics discuss these slanted eyes in the context of Asian stereotypes (i.e. people making fun of Asians by pulling back their eyes)?
    • No one mentioned this. My guess is that because of the styling, it wasn't taken as referencing Asian people.
  • Apologies in advance for the silly question, but is it "eveningwear" or "evening wear"? I thought it was two words, but you would have more knowledge in this field and I actually do not think I have ever seen it written down before.
    • SchroCat says it's two words in British English, and he's my north star in that department, so I've tweaked that

That should be everything. Once all my comments have been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I have not missed anything. It was a fun and engaging read. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for your comments Aoba! Always appreciate it. ♠PMC(talk) 07:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The OED has "eveningwear" as two words, not one (also repeated a few times in the body)
    • Corrected throughout
  • Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Does her nationality matter?
    • I guess not
  • You give the incorrect translations, but not the correct one...
    • Interestingly and annoyingly, I've never found anyone who tries to account for which of the several senses of "Pantheon" McQueen is going for here. It's entirely possible he was just sticking cool-sounding foreign words together and didn't have a particular meaning in mind. I could add the various possible translations into the footnote if you think that's useful.
      • I think it translates as "pantheon to light" (which would also explain the styling of the runway). UndercoverClassicist would be able to confirm or correct the point as necessary. I think the correct translation is more important than the mistranslations, as far as the article text goes, and would counsel for keeping it in the body, but your call. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the intended meaning is "to light" (in the sense of "a monument to heroism"), it's not great Latin: ad like this should really mean "towards".
Probably the most intuitive translation of the words as written is "Pantheon towards the light" (Latin doesn't have a word for 'the', so it's added to nouns as needed in English), but I must admit that doesn't make much sense to me.
I suspect he was going for "Pantheon" in the sense of a temple rather than the usual sense of a collection of gods? UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm hesitant to assume a translation, because it's impossible to know what sense of the word pantheon McQueen was going for and it's not clear from context. The real problem is that no sources directly address the discrepancy. The closest thing I have to anyone acknowledging it is Fairer & Wilcox saying that the title "included the Latin for 'towards the light'" (my emphasis). Most other sources uncritically say something like "Pantheon ad Lucem, translated as 'towards the light'" and don't comment further. I assume they're thinking something like "oh, this Latin phrase has three words and the English translation has three words, that checks out", not considering that translation isn't always a one to one situation. So we have a situation where I think we can fairly say "many people are not translating this fully" but not one where we can go so far as to say "and here's the full translation". ♠PMC(talk) 10:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Production details
  • 'Alternately, they can be seen as "the base of a hovering starship"': As this is an opinion, it's probably best to attribute it directly to the writer
    • Done
  • "famously": probably best to delete this one
    • Done
  • "makeup" is hyphenated in BrEng
    • fixed


  • Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Again, does her nationality matter?
    • Removed
  • "Scandinavian- designed": is there meant to be a space there?
    • Oh, nope, removed

That's my lot. Another very enjoyable read, for which I thank you. - SchroCat (talk) 10:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Cheers! Thanks as always for the review. Glad you're still enjoying the series. ♠PMC(talk) 07:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Only the translation point is outstanding, but whichever pathway you choose will be fine. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'll see what UC says and go from there. ♠PMC(talk) 08:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz edit

Hello PMC, an enjoyable and evocative article. I have a few comments and questions...


  • order needs tweaking to - short des / italic title / good / eng and date
    • Done

Concept and creative process

  • who specialised in bias-cut dresses cut to loosely drape and wrap around the body - avoid 2x cut? Something like 'who specialised in dresses bias-cut to loosely drape and wrap'
    • switched "cut to" to "meant to"
  • including tweed suits and fur coats - link tweed
    • Done
  • Look 54 echoed the gaping neckline in a design with elements of Tudor period clothing - that article has a link to the clothes they wore which illustrates the neckline. Swap link?
    • Swapped link, but to the main article, not right to the gallery
  • made from real feathers - why "real"?
    • As opposed to artificial feathers
  • delaying the collection's production.[1] McQueen called the orchid dresses "pivotal" to the collection's presentation.[1] Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection was delayed - repetition "delaying the collection's" and "collection was delayed". Maybe change last sentence to 'Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection was delayed and did not leave the production facility in Italy until nearly two days before the show.'
    • God, what an ugly string of sentences that was. I've revised entirely to cut the redundancy.

Runway show

  • at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris - in Paris
    • Fixed
  • PPR president Francois-Henri Pinault, PPR chairman Serge Weinberg, - could remove second PPR
    • Done
  • Alternately, author Judith Watt - For "Alternately" a better word might be 'Alternatively' ie (another choice) as opposed to 'taking turns'?
    • Removed entirely, the sentence works without it
  • Also sprach Zarathustra - the fanfare's name is "Sunrise" per Also sprach Zarathustra#Structure. Do refs not mention its name?
    • Not the ones I'm using to ref its appearance in the show. I could get an outside ref for the name and put it in the text, but it doesn't seem that important
  • used in Stanley Kubrick's 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey. - remove (film) from pipe per twice above
    • Oop yea
  • The 1980 Kate Bush song - link Bush?
    • Done
  • "Orchid" shoulder-piece that accompanied the final look - "accompanied" sounds to me as a minor accessory whereas looking at its photos at V&A it's a spectacular part of the whole. Would "that featured in the final look" be too strong?
    • No, that's better
  • wore an evening gown in light grey tulle - hyphen light-grey, link Tulle (netting)?
    • I don't think the color gets hyphenated? SchroCat, any BrEng input here? Tulle linked though.
      • Ah, not an Engvar thing but per MOS:HYPHEN "Compounds that are hyphenated when used attributively (adjectives before the nouns they qualify: a light-blue handbag, a 34-year-old woman)..." JennyOz (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reception Positive

  • Michael Fink, a market director for Saks Fifth Avenue, told WWD that he - WWD is not explained until section Retrospective - move full name and link up to here?
    • Oop yup, consequence of revamping
  • be similarly figure-hugging.[52] Similarly, in her review - 2x similarly a bit close?
    • Fixed
  • financial backers at Gucci Group that - twice above it is Gucci group
    • Made capitlized consistently


  • Booth felt many designs were - Moore felt
    • Aargh I thought I got all of those


  • 12th-highest pageviews at for the - article doesn't use italics?
    • Per MOS:WEBITALIC, it should be if it's basically a work of journalism (I'm paraphrasing), which was
  • McQueen told Harper's Bazaar in August 2004 that was unsure - missing 'he' after "that"
    • Fixed
  • journalist Dana Thomas omits - link her?

Analysis and legacy

  • One dress and one pair of boots from Pantheon appeared in the 2022 exhibition Lee Alexander McQueen: Mind, Mythos, Muse. - the dress in the top image was in a separate staging ie 2023 but was it the same dress?
    • Yeah, it was.
  • Curators described it as an example - what does "it" refer to here? Pantheon or their exhibition?
    • It's either that specific dress or the whole collection, but I don't have the Mythos book back until tomorrow, so I'll have to wait to check
      • It was that particular dress and another not from Pantheon and not pictured in this article.
  • The orchid shoulder-piece sold for $43,750 - format per others ie "Orchid" shoulder-piece ?
    • Done

Misc consistency

  • adverbial hyphens - "usually-bombastic", "highly-structured", "heavily-decorated", "strongly-positive", "commercially-viable" v most without eg "tightly curled hair", "heavily beaded", etc
    • de-hyphenated
  • science fiction hyphens - "science fiction films" (x3) and "science fiction show" v "science-fiction elements" (x2) and "science-fiction roots"
    • de-hyphenated

Quote boxes

  • (interesting current discussion at VPP) - did you consider adding coloured backgrounds?
    • If it's all the same to you, I don't like colored backgrounds for quote boxes

Visual Editor quirks?

  • Maybe not specifically an FA compliance issue but I am trying to understand what VE does...
Unnecessarily piped links - eg [[Fashion show|fashion shows]] and [[Star Trek|''Star Trek'']] and [[Wig|wigs]] - are these a quirk of Visual Editor? There are about 14 of these. They render and link okay of course but look strange in edit mode especially when many other links don't have the duplication.
And this: (2022)''.'' italics on a full stop? Why does VE do that?
    • Yes, they're a VE quirk. Someone usually shows up and fixes them with a script, so I rarely bother fixing it manually especially as it doesn't make a difference in the rendered page.

References - duplicates (maybe this a VE thing too?)

  • Refs 1 and 57 Armstrong, Lisa
  • Refs 24 and 48 Limnander, Armand
  • Refs 25 and 54 Todd, Stephen
  • Refs 26 and 27 and 47 Friedman, Vanessa
    • Yeah, I think it's a VE thing; now fixed


  • Category:March 2004 events in France
    • Added

Hoping something of value above, JennyOz (talk) 06:29, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • JennyOz thank you, I appreciate your thorough read-throughs. All done except two things - "light-grey" and will have to double check the Mythos book once I grab it tomorrow. ♠PMC(talk) 07:40, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • That all looks brilliant thanks! I've made a clarifying comment above re hyphenating colours but I'm happy to s'port either way. (Hey, when I saw that headpiece at The Met Gala earlier this month, I said to myself "Ah! I recognise that, Widows, thanks to PMC!") JennyOz (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alice of Champagne edit

Nominator(s): Borsoka (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jerusalemite royal princess who ruled the Kingdoms of Cyprus and Jerusalem as regent for her son and an absent relative for years in the first half of the 13th century. She also laid claim to a French county but could not seize it. I was planning to nominate the article with Surtsicna as a co-nominator because they had been a major (and critical) contributor but they have been inactive for months. As I have always loved Surtsicna's articles about medieval royals, I hope they are well and will return to our community soon. I would be really grateful for any comments and suggestions. Borsoka (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:SilverDenierHenryIOfCyprus1218-1253.jpg needs an explicit tag for the original work
  • Thank you for your image review. Tag added.
  • File:Map_Crusader_states_1240-eng.png needs a source for the data presented, and see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:30, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source added, and I sought the assistance of editors at Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop. Borsoka (talk) 02:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship edit

As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification.

  • somewhat odd that we get a definition of the Third Crusade ("a large military campaign for their rescue proclaimed by the papacy") but not the First. I think the "a large military campaign" bit can be moved to describe the First, or just removed.
  • Rephrased.
  • "in the aftermath of the First Crusade by western European knights in Palestine but it was nearly annihilated by Saladin, Sultan of Egypt, in 1187–89" somewhat obscures the fact that there were 90-odd years between the beginning and end of the sentence.
  • Expanded.
  • "who joined the crusade. Before departing for the crusade..." could probably be combined for smoother prose
  • Rephrased.
  • The phrase "the widowed Isabella" appears twice within short order in the second paragraph.
  • Rephrased.
  • "agreed that Aimery's eldest surviving son was to marry Henry's eldest surviving daughter would receive the County of Jaffa in the kingdom as dowry" is there an "and" missing?
  • Rephrased.
  • I think the mentions of Alice and Philippa could go earlier in the paragraph, possibly right after their parents' marriage. As it stands, the chronology and names are a bit confusing for a non-specialist reader.
  • Restructured.
  • "King Philip II of France invested their uncle, Theobald III, with Champagne and Brie in January 1198" why was it up to Philip to decide who to invest the counties with?
  • A previous sentence now clarifies that the two counties were situated in France.
  • Some background on Isabella herself wouldn't go amiss (first husband isn't mentioned at all, second husband and eldest daughter aren't mentioned until third paragraph, no details of fourth marriage, etc.) The article places much less prominence on her and her life/lands compared to her husband.
  • Expanded info on Isabella.
  • Alice was her parents' eldest child, according to the cited sources. Her youngest full-sister, Margaret "almost certainily died in childhood", according to Bernard Hamilton (Hamilton, p. 225). Borsoka (talk) 13:21, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe "stepsiblings" is typically hyphenated.
  • Modified.
  • "They had two daughters, Maria and Isabella, and a son, Henry." birth years would be helpful
  • The dates are uncertain.
  • I think the prose in the final two sentences of the "Queen consort" subsection could be tightened.
  • Rephrased.
  • What was the practical difference between the positions of regent and bailli? The fact that Alice installed Philip suggests that she had greater power (was that a royal prerogative?), but then he prevailed over her in the tithing dispute.
  • I doubt this is the consequence of a difference between their position, and also doubt that an exact definition of their position could be added, for it was changing (as it is demonstrated by the article itself).
  • "Negotiations ... concluded with an agreement in October 1220" do we know when they began?
  • Rephrased.
  • "In time, the agreement was revised, as the Cypriot noblemen opposed the payment of a tithe (as prescribed by the agreement). The Holy See had also demanded that the estates the nobles had seized from the Orthodox Church be restored to the Catholic clerics. This new agreement, reached in 1222, neither freed the noblemen from the tithe nor prescribed the restoration of Church property." Little bit wordy, and could probably be trimmed.
In exile
  • "who did not want to allow her" I don't think the "to allow" is needed.
  • "Still, Alice, who continued..." this sentence doesn't really expand on the last one enough, and could easily be combined.
  • "Pope Gregory declared that Frederick did not fulfill his crusader oath and excommunicated him." is this sentence necessary?
  • "When Philip of Ibelin died" when?
  • "son and successor of her niece Isabella II and Frederick" the "successor of ... Frederick" made me think the latter was dead at this point.
  • "Henry I" is written once, "Henry I of Cyprus" twice; I'm not sure the regnal numbers are necessary in the context they are being used (there aren't any other Henry's to talk about) and the "of Cyprus" is definitely unneeded.
  • "When Henry I of Cyprus reached the age of majority on 3 May 1232, Alice abdicated from her regency of Cyprus, which she had retained despite having left Cyprus" too much "Cyprus"
  • "the barons opposed to Frederick's rule" as the only barons referred to thus far have been Cypriot, might be best to clarify
  • "Alice nonetheless exercised... She annulled ... She granted ... " these three short related sentences could be combined
  • Nothing about her burial or legacy? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your comprehensive review. Sorry, but I need to wait until weekend to address the problems you indicated above. Borsoka (talk) 00:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shovel Knight Showdown edit

Nominator(s): The Night Watch (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a video game that was the last add-on to Shovel Knight. After my last FAC was archived, I've decided to revisit the Shovel Knight franchise to see if there is room for a Featured article somewhere. So let's start small with the last of the expansions, an interesting party game that was not as impactful as TowerFall or Smash Bros., but is still worth a quick visit. What the article lacks in prose size I believe it makes up with comprehensiveness. I look forward to your comments. The Night Watch (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Skyshifter edit

Will comment soon. Skyshiftertalk 22:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and lead

  • The infobox says the genre is "platform", but the lead begins with "is a fighting game".
Linked to Artificial intelligence in video games
  • Could add the year of release after the games cited, i.e. Mega Man 7 (1995).
  • "The game received average reviews on release" — as the Switch version received "generally favorable reviews" according to Metacritic, "favorable to average reviews" could be an option here.
I chose "average reviews" to avoid the problem around WP:VG/MIXED, which says that we should avoid summarizing reviews with the terms "mixed to positive" or "mixed to negative", which probably includes "favorable to average reviews" as well, though I can change it to just "mixed" if you think that would be more appropriate.

Skyshiftertalk 23:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Skyshifter follow-up ping. The Night Watch (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apply the suggestion of adding the year of release after the games throughout the article.


  • Ok

Development and release

  • "Chester's Choice allows the player ..." I feel like this specific sentence should be in Gameplay
  • "release date on April 9, 2019"; "on" → "of"; currently this could be interpreted as the delay being announced on April 9, 2019
  • "on December 10, 2019" the year can be removed, as it was just mentioned


  • Add the OpenCritic assessment to the prose. I'd also change the 38% in the table to "38% recommend" as in OneShot, but this is optional.'
  • You should introduce the reviews' authors, e.g. "Zachary Miller of Nintendo World Report"...
I prefer list only the outlet rather than every one of the authors as I find having both titles can be difficult to parse. This style has been used in some other FAs such as Katana Zero, Donkey Kong Country etc.
  • "but said that the had a narrative" — missing word here I believe
  • "A few reviewers called the boss battle a highlight" → "A few reviewers highlighted the boss battle"
  • You use "reviewers" multiple times in this section, but "critics" one single time. I recommend changing some instances of "reviewers" to "critics".
Changed a few to "critics"

References (formatting)

  • There's a formatting error on ref 12
Think I fixed it
  • Add italics to the game's name on ref 16

Skyshiftertalk 17:48, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 edit

  • I do not thin "originally" is needed in this part, (Yacht Club Games originally envisioned Showdown), as I believe that it could be understood with "envisioned" that these plans changed along the way.
Cut that word
  • This part, (while the single-player mode received a negative response, many reviewers criticizing its difficulty balancing) reads a little off to me. I understand the meaning, but it may be better to make these negative critiques into their own sentence.
Split into its own sentence
  • Apologies in advance if this is obvious, but should the platforms be mentioned in the lead? I was just curious as I can see it in the infobox and the article itself, but it is not present in the lead.
I added the platforms to the lead
  • I would add WP:ALT text to the infobox image as well as the screenshot.
  • I do have a comment about this sentence: (The plot of the mode takes place after the narrative of Shovel Knight: Specter of Torment, where Specter Knight's friends attempt to defeat the Enchantress by imprisoning her in a magic mirror.) I originally read this as meaning the magic mirror plot happened in Spector of Torment, but only later realized that is not the case. I would adjust it to something like (Set after the events of Shovel Knight: Specter of Torment, the plot of the mode is about Specter Knight's friends attempting to defeat the Enchantress by imprisoning her in a magic mirror.)
  • I have a comment for this part, (calling it "somewhere between Smash Bros.") I was initially confused by the quote as it felt incomplete (i.e. between Smash Bros. and what?). I looked at the source and the quote is accurate, but I am wondering if perhaps paraphrasing it would avoid such confusion. Maybe something like (comparing it to Smash Bros.) or (saying it is similar to Smash Bros.)
Changed to "compared to Smash Bros"
  • Was there any reason given for the delay in the release date?
They delayed it so that they could refine the game, added a sentence clarifying.
  • I have a clarification question about this sentence: (Other reviewers considered some characters too powerful.) Did either of these two sources provide examples of this? I was just curious if there was a way to briefly expand upon this.
Nintendo World Report said that large characters like Polar Knight could be too powerful, though I rephrased it to more clearly state that the reviewers had trouble with the balancing.
  • I have a question about this part, (added that the minigames in the campaign). Apologies if I had missed this in an earlier section. What are these "minigames"? I was under the impression that the campaign was mostly fighting á la Mortal Kombat.
They were parts of the campaign that the player needed to progress, such as a section where the player had to shoot targets that moved around the screen. Should I include their existence in Gameplay?
If possible, I would include them in the "Gameplay" section to clarify this part and to give readers a more complete understanding of the campaign mode. Aoba47 (talk) 16:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would italicize the game title (and any other game titles) in citation titles per WP:CONFORMTITLE.

I hope that this review is helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will read through the article again to make sure I have not missed anything. Best of luck with this FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Finished with adding the minigame portion, I believe that I have addressed your comments @Aoba47. Thanks again for your review! The Night Watch (talk) 05:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC based on the prose. Aoba47 (talk) 13:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draken Bowser edit

Short and to the point, which is reassuring since it's a DLC. This could be stated a bit more clearly though. The lead introduces the game as an "add-on", and I'm not sure the article elaborates on this at any point.


  • "where players battle one another to collect the most gems that appear on a stage, to a free for all setting where players engage in a battle to the death." -- shorter, which would make the lead perhaps a bit too short and allow for a slight expansion.
Done. I think the lead is a bit brief but not too short, I've seen some shorter ones like with OneShot for example.
  • I'd prefer including the DLC acronym here as well.


  • "a unique type of movement" -- does this refer to a broader "movement set" or a unique "movement ability/skill"?
movement ability/skill. Would there be a better way to phrase this?
In that case I'd use either "movement ability" or "movement skill". /DB
changed to "movement skill"
  • "range" -- like the GA-reviewer I don't think this is the best way to introduce these characters
Changed to "include", though maybe another way to say this would be better. Thoughts?
That works. /DB

Development and release

  • "its original planned release date" -- I don't think both are required.

Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 09:27, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shigi Qutuqu edit

Nominator(s): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Compared to his contemporaries in the early Mongol Empire, Shigi Qutuqu stands out perhaps most for his lack of military ability—he was in command during the most serious reverse of the early Mongol conquests. Nevertheless, he had a long and productive career, serving in numerous judicial and administrative roles in China and surviving the power struggles of the 1240s and 50s until his death at 80+.

That was my nomination statement for the last FAC, which was quickly archived when IRL issues arose. This article was reviewed for GA just under a year ago by Aza24; if successful, this nomination will be used in the WikiCup. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Generalissima edit

Marking myself down for this one! Would you like a spot check?

Thanks Generalissima; I think only the source review is necessary, but if you're willing to do a spot-check I wouldn't say no. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Generalissima do you still intend to comment? No worries if not. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk)

Tim O'Doherty edit

Marker for now. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 15:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tim do you still intend to comment? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look later tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Went through it now, and only came up with two comments, both in the same paragraph. It's nicely written, seems comprehensive and can't see why it shouldn't get the gold star.

  • "Medieval historians credit him with judicial integrity and administrative quality, while modern historians ascribe a good part of the success of Ögedei's fiscal reforms to Shigi Qutuqu's actions and policies" - do modern historians say that the medieval view of integrity and administrative quality is wrong, and/or that Shigi Qutuqu's actions and policies are more important, or do they say that as well as having judicial integrity and administrative quality he was also good at fiscal reform? If it's the former then "while" seems OK, but if it's the latter I'd go with "and" to clear it up a bit.
    • The latter, so changed.
  • "The Song dynasty ambassador Xu Ting termed Shigi Qutuqu's financial excesses "dreadful"" - Sorry if I'm being a thicko here, but do any of the preceding bits fall under the umbrella of "financial excess"? I can't see it. If not, (and again apologies if I'm misinterpreting things) does the source say anything about what was excessive? If there's nothing, I'd rephrase to something along the lines of "Financial excesses under Shigi Qutuqu were called "dreadful" by the Song dynasty ambassador Xu Ting, while [...]".
    • I have rephrased the sentence and given an example of the financial excesses.

Again, great article, no reason to clog things up over two minor points. Support. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 18:50, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC edit

Also a marker for now, poke me if I don't get to it within a week. ♠PMC(talk) 12:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Suggest footnoting or briefly contextualizing "Kurultai" in the lead as the average reader won't know this word and will have to stop and go look it up. Something like "chiefs' council" would be enough inline, or the "lit" template you use later
    • Good call, I think the kurultai reference is too specific, so changed to "in the years after the empire's foundation". Better?
  • "He was however..." this sentence has "defeat" twice, suggest swapping for a synonym
  • Might want to clarify that Ögedei was Genghis Khan's immediate successor
  • "praise his qualities of" could be cut to "praise his"
    • All done.
  • "reigns of Güyük and Möngke" any reason why not "reigns of Güyük Khan and Möngke Khan"?
    • Sounds a bit odd to repeat the regnal title—I wouldn't say "John Tinniswood has lived through the reigns of King George V, King Edward VIII, King George VI, Queen Elizabeth II, and King Charles III", I'd say "J.T. has lived through the reigns of George V, Edward VIII, George VI, Elizabeth II, and Charles III".
      • Right, I see what you mean.
  • Is it worth establishing, perhaps in a footnote, when approximately the Secret History and the Jami' were written? I think noting how close or far these were from the actual events could be useful the the reader
    • Done.
  • "The raid on Naratu..." suggest reordering this sentence (or maybe adding a short sentence before it) to first say that the account is implausible. Right now you're arguing the case before saying what you're arguing, which can be less smooth for the reader
    • Good call.
  • "improbable because all of Hoelun's full-blooded children were adults" - implying she wouldn't adopt new kids because she was done with child-raising? Can this be made more explicit?
    • Since the implication you received was partially incorrect, it clearly does need to be rephrased—the focus is on the age difference between the prospective adopted siblings.
  • Overall, good clear handling of two very different historical accounts
  • As with the Secret History and the Jami', it might be worth having a touch of chronological context for Shengwu and History of Yuan
  • Year for Battle of Parwan
    • Both done
  • "more laconically by the Mongol chronicles" I'm sorry, I can't help picturing a series of irritated Mongol scribes angrily scrawling "They won. Anyway" and then slamming the scroll shut
    • As I recall, it's something like "okay, so we were defeated, sure, but right after we completetely thrashed them, so it DOESN'T MATTER"
  • This article's a little short on images - no worries if not, but what about an image of Ogedei under the section about his rule, since there's room?
    • Added.
  • "fiscal reforms to Shigi Qutuqu's implementation of the census and other reforms" - two "reforms" here. Possible to write around?
    • Tightened.
  • "dismisses his loss at Parwan in one sentence" oh my god they actually did though

That's all I got. Very interesting little article! I really enjoy your prose, it's clear and to-the-point but never becomes dry. Great work. ♠PMC(talk) 01:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks very much for the compliments and the review Premeditated Chaos; a few responses above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looking good! Responded to one comment to confirm I agree with your point, the rest of the chnages look good. Happy to support. ♠PMC(talk) 22:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Is there no image of this individual?
    • Sadly not.
  • File:Siège_de_Beijing_(1213-1214).jpeg: source link is dead and caption needs editing for style. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Matarisvan edit

  • Is foundling appropriate here? I am not quite sure about what the MOS suggests, perhaps "young Shigi" would be better here?
    • I am not sure why it would be inappropriate—it seems to be a proper English word, according to online dictionaries.
  • Can silk be used instead of silken?
    • That is I believe more accurate. Done.
  • Consider linking to Mongol army on first use?
    • Done.
  • What is the rationale for linking to the Jin dynasty page in two consecutive sections?
    • Error, removed.
  • "Having survived the new khagan Möngke": consider rephrasing this to "Having survived Möngke, the new khagan" to avoid SEAOFBLUE?
    • It is clear that they are not the same link because one is italicised and the other isn't.
  • Consider linking, in the biblio, to Vasily Bartold, Munshiram Manoharlal, Kim Ho-dong, Bulletin of the SOAS?
    • Thanks for spotting those four.
  • Can we add this paper by Atwood [5] and its comments to the SHM authorship question? Atwood notes that Shigi couldn't have known about Genghis' early life at the level of detail in the SHM.
    • This took a bit of time to investigate; I have rewritten the respective sentence in the article but I haven't used this source, instead using Atwood's comments in his ultra-recent edition of the SHM.
  • Another paper I found by JA Boyle: he cites Nasawi who says Shigi was sent to attack Nishapur along with Tolun Cherbi. Boyle also cites Juzjani who says Shigi along with Sa'di and Uklan had fought in Ghor and Khorasan. Link to the paper: [6].
    • A good catch; I have added the detail to the article.
  • Would you be open to citing this paper by William Hung on SHM authorship: [7]? It mentions Shigi only twice and has very little to say, so I can understand if you do not wish to, it is not a deal breaker.
    • On account of age, I think not.
  • There seems to be a lot of research into Shigi in German, I cannot ascertain now if it is useful due to time constraints in translating entire papers. If you can read German, Weiers and Ratchnevsky have done substantial work on this, though they spell Shigi as Sigi, which makes most of their work not show up if you search using the former word. There also seem to be similar works written in French.
    • I am aware—during the 90s and 00s, much important scholarship was done by German-speaking historians in the West. However, German is not quite the lingua franca that English is, so that situation has changed in the past decade and a half; I think general comprehensivity can be achieved without relying on foreign-language scholarship.
  • Are the incidents in these papers of any value: [8]? I am not quite sure as they are anecdotal.
    • This is already covered in the article.
  • Hi AirshipJungleman29, any thoughts on the other four points? They would expand comprehensiveness somewhat, wdyt? Matarisvan (talk) 15:55, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi Matarisvan, thanks exceedingly for the thought-provoking comments; responses above. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      What do you think about making the subsections of the Biography section into full independent sections? Matarisvan (talk) 16:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Yes, that may work slightly better. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not 100% sure about this, but shouldn't the image of the capture of Zhongdu be on the right, as per MOS:IMAGELOCATION and MOS:SANDWICH? Other than that, happy to support this one. Matarisvan (talk) 16:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Also, could I suggest some categories to add? I believe these would be justified here, wdyt?
      - 12th-century births
      - 12th-century Mongols
      - 13th-century Mongols
      - Mongol Empire task force articles (wonder why this wasn't auto added bc the article is a part of both the WikiProject and task force) Matarisvan (talk) 09:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Thank you for your comments Matarisvan, especially on the areas that are not my forte. I have added the categories with the exception of the last, which is on the talk page as I believe is normal. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 09:30, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      My bad, I had not checked the talk page. Joining this FACR was great, props to you for coming up with such a great article even though there's not much material on the subject. Matarisvan (talk) 10:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kusma edit

Intending to review this one. —Kusma (talk) 14:41, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Do we know his Mongol script name? zhwiki says it is ᠰᠢᠭᠢᠬᠤᠲᠤᠭ and they also give the VPMC transliteration "sikiqutug".
    • Although I lack an RS, the script looks plausible so I've added it to the article.
  • According to the Japanese Wikipedia article, the Jami' al-tawarikh has other versions of his name ( قوتوقو نويان Qūtūqū Nūyān)
    • "Noyan" just means "commander".
  • "the Secret History of the Mongols, which alters and augments his position in early Mongol society." I do not quite understand "alters and augments" here; do we know anything about his position in early Mongol society before the Secret History?
    • Yes—see article.
      • My point (which I am not making very well) is that "The Secret History alters his position in Mongol history" seems to indicate that there was a pre-Secret History historiography where Shigi Qutuqu was described differently. However, the Secret History appears to be the oldest of the primary sources we have?
  • Shouldn't "Hoelun" be "Hö'elün"?
    • Certainly should be; changed.
  • "Rashid al-Din's account of Shigi Qutuqu's adoption takes place more than a decade earlier." the adoption takes place earlier, not the account?
    • Good catch, changed.
  • "subsequent appointments, when he may have replaced Belgutei" who is "he" here?
    • Specified Shigi Qutuqu.
  • Can you give a hint where the Khawarazmian Empire was located? The lead at least says "western campaign" to give some very rough orientation
    • Done, and for the Jin dynasty too.
  • "fall of Kaifeng" for "siege of Kaifeng" is a bit weird as we are looking at this from the Mongol POV
    • I'm not sure what's weird, it seems natural to me. Could you explain?
      • Well, the Mongols besieged Kaifeng and captured it, so from their POV, it is a "capture", not a "fall", which is what it looks like if you are pro-Kaifeng. But no big deal either way.
  • MOS:DATERANGE advises against "1235–6" and "1203–57".
    • Fixed the first; I'm not sure where the second came from, so removed.
  • I am not educated enough to know the word corvée. Can this be glossed per MOS:NOFORCELINK?
    • It's a fairly complicated topic that's tangential to the topic, so does a simple pipe of "corvée labour" give enough indication?
  • Do people "make ... irregularities"?
    • I'll be honest, I can't think of a word that works better.
  • The link for Shihihutug University is dead (amazingly, we don't seem to have an article about this university in any language??)
    • They've revamped their website, so I've found a new link.
  • It would be great to know more about modern Mongol impressions of Shigi Qutuqu; the fact that they named their law university after him seems to indicate he is still among the most revered law people. But I appreciate that this is really hard to find out more about.
    • Yes, I don't quite know where I would start looking.

A fine article overall. —Kusma (talk) 09:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Susanna Hoffs edit

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Susannah Hoffs is probably best known as a member of popular music group the Bangles; she co-wrote their hit "Eternal Flame". Her cinematic career has been less successful than her musical endeavours, which have included several solo albums and collaborations. In 2023 her novel This Bird Has Flown was well-received by critics. All suggestions for improvements to the article are appreciated. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h edit

  • Comments to come soon. 750h+ 09:57, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering, as per the "Early life" section, her middle name is "Lee", why isn't this mentioned in the lead ("Susanna Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist," ==> "Susanna Lee Hoffs (born January 17, 1959) is an American singer, guitarist,")
  • Following tensions and resentment of Hoffs's perceived leadership, the band split in 1989, reformed in 1999 and released albums in 2003 and 2011. add a comma after "1999".
  • and formed the faux British 1960s band Ming Tea, with Mike Myers and Matthew Sweet comma unneeded
early career
  • with sisters Vicki and Debbi Peterson, and shared a house should there be a comma?
the bangles
  • recounted that she had been looking at selected members of the crowd, to counter is the a comma needed?
  • He attended some of the group's concerts, and occasionally comma needed?
solo career
  • Prior to leaving Columbia Records, Hoffs Change "prior to" to "before" for conciseness
  • Hoffs's fourth studio album, was release on Baroque Folk Records in 2021. change "release" to "released".
  • The album includes interpretations of the Rolling Stones, Squeeze, Lesley Gore and received should have an "and" before Lesley Gore.
other collaborations
  • The trio made a number of club and TV... change "a number of" to something like numerous/several/many
  • I've changed this to "The trio played live at nightclubs in Los Angeles."; sources focus on club rather than TV appearances, but none that I've seen quantify it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that's all from me. solid work. 750h+ 10:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated, 750h+. Let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 750h+ 00:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pseud 14 edit

  • Per MOS:ROLEBIO, we should only use her most notable roles, which I think is American singer-songwriter and actress and the other sundry roles can be listed in the infobox (which they already are).
  • and number one "Walk Like an Egyptian" -- and number one single
  • included the US top-ten hit -- we should avoid using terms like "hit"
  • and released albums in 2003 and 2011. -- perhaps the albums can be named here, as it appears that have wiki articles.

Started looking at the lead for now. Will endeavor to complete over the weekend. Pseud 14 (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AC/DC edit

Nominator(s): VAUGHAN J. (t · c) and shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Australian rock band AC/DC, first widely known about their seventh studio album Back in Black (1980), an album in tribute to one of their members Bon Scott, due to him dying of alcohol poisoning. The article was created in 2002 by an IP user (, first promoted to GA in 2006 by No-Bullet, and promoted to FA in 2007 also by No-Bullet, which then sadly got demoted in 2018. Five years later, me and shaidar cuebiyar have been working hard cleaning up the article to look like what it is now, and it is currently promoted to GA since 29 December 2023.

This is my second time nominating this article to FAC, because I withdrawed the last one that I first nominated, since there was a lot that needed to be fixed. The PR didn't work out since there was no reviewers 1 month after opening, but has been copyedited from GOCE (thanks to Mox Eden). So all feedback, constructive criticism, and suggestions are all welcome and very much appreciated. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 04:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

750h edit

this will be the longest article I'll leave comments on so it might take a while. it's a good article from first glance. 750h+ 03:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

750h+: Not to bother you; is there still more comments to come or is that all? — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 07:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll do the rest soon. These are just first-glance comments; more extensive comments might come soon. 750h+ 07:38, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their current line-up comprises Angus, bass... – last name should always be used. Change "Angus" to "Young". i've just realised there's two "Young"s.
  • I was about to say... — VJ

more soon

  • They recruited English singer Johnson as their new front man. – front man should be one word (frontman).
  • Done. — VJ
  • The band's line-up remained the same for 20 years until 2014, when Malcolm retired due to early-onset dementia.. – comma isn't needed
  • Done. — VJ
  • ..developed a variety of genres, which included a harder blues rock style dubbed.. – i think "blues rock" should be hyphenated
  • Upon formation, Malcolm and Angus had developed the band's name after Margaret pointed out the symbol.. – remove "had"
  • Done. — VJ
  • I was just flicking it, when Malcolm came up to me and started slagging Sabbath..." – remove the comma.
  • Done. — VJ
  • With Johnson, the group completed the songwriting previously begun – change "previously begun" to "began"
  • Done. — VJ
  • for the Rock Band series by means of a Wal-Mart-exclusive retail disc – replace "by means of" with something simpler such as "using" or "through".
  • Done. — VJ
  • "It's been what I've known for the past 40 years, but after this tour I'm backing off add a comma after tour
  • Done. — VJ
musical style
  • [Scott] revelled in the lifestyle. Somehow he rose above all the substance abuse to become the ultimate rock and roll front man." ==> "[Scott] revelled in the lifestyle. Somehow he rose above all the substance abuse to become the ultimate rock and roll [frontman]."
  • Done. — VJ
  • However, there are people who will say that they are indisputably ==> "However, some people say that they are indisputably"
  • I'm keeping it that way because it's from a quote from McParland. — VJ
  • While AC/DC has referenced the underworld and they have given their remove "they".
  • See above. — VJ
  • Disco was huge and punk and new wave were ascendant, and along came this AC/DC record which just destroyed everybody. remove the comma
  • Done. — VJ
  • Gene Simmons of hard rock contemporaries Kiss remarked that, "A lot of people look the same remove "that" after remarked
  • Done. — VJ
  • David Marchese from Vulture wrote that, "Regardless of the lyricist remove the comma and decapitalise the word "Regardless".
  • Done. — VJ
  • she believed it would be "daft as opposed to damaging" for female listeners if they can understand the change "can" to could"
  • Done. — VJ
  • In spite of the "unpleasant sneering quality" of change "In spite of" to "Despite".
  • Done. — VJ
  • with AC/DC's name,[289] arriving at the conclusion that AC/DC actually stood for Anti-Christ/Devil's Child or Devil's Children. change "arriving at the conclusion" to "concluding". Remove the word "actually" too.
  • Done. — VJ
  • honestly i think it's a great article and is worthy of FA status; i don't have any more "extensive comments" as I believe the other reviewer has addressed them all, @Vaughan J.:.
thanks! another one's coming soon! and with the comments you didn't answer, i didn't realise those were quotes. with that, i think you'll be seeing a support from me. 750h+ 08:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 10:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino edit

It's great to see an article on such a substantial topic here. Just some drive-by comments for now; I hope to have time for a more thorough review soon:

  • There are often clumps of references supporting relatively simple statements – e.g. "In November 1973" [two references that both support that date], "Zorro" [three references]. I'd suggest trimming unnecessary references back to your most reliable/preferred support for a given claim. Reference piles make the article a challenge to review (as they make source-checking a pain in the ass) and update, and they don't do the reader any particular favors.
  • Done. — VJ
  • It looks like this is not done? Let me know if the request is unclear. Ajpolino (talk) 06:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now it is done. I didn't realise that it was not done before I posted that it was done 🙃 — VJ
  • This is still not done. Can you help me understand how you read my request, and what you did? We're clearly not on the same page. I'm asking you to trim unnecessary references throughout the article. I gave two examples. For one ("November 1973") you kept all the references but moved them to the end of the sentence. For the other ("Zorro") it's still followed by three references, two of which are unnecessary. These were just two examples that I checked (where every citation contained the information being referenced, and so only one was necessary). I see many more reference piles that I suspect could also be trimmed. Ajpolino (talk) 00:33, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ohhhhhh! Gotcha. Done that now. — VJ
  • "Before formation... after passing an audition." a confusingly long sentence. Can it be split up or reworded?
  • Has been split by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "after Margaret pointed out" we don't learn who Margaret is until the next paragraph.
  • Fixed. — VJ
  • "AC from DC – i.e., "AC⚡︎DC"," the text is clear without the "i.e." statement; also it's adjacent to the image of the Huerta logo.
  • Done. — VJ
  • "Adam Behr of The Bulletin determined" - the verb "determined" doesn't seem quite right here.
  • Done by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "Evans and Loughlin were incompatible" does the book clarify at all what this means?
  • Done by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "Burgess later claimed his drink had been tampered with" is this important to include? Suggest cutting.
  • Removed by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "glam rock image, which was favoured by contemporary Melbourne bands Skyhooks and Hush; instead, they" this comparison seems extraneous to the story.
  • Done by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "Scott had worked as a driver for the group in that city until an "
  • Done. — VJ
  • It's odd to read "George Young and Harry Vanda as the producers" and then just a few paragraphs later "with Vanda & Young producing" (same people, now stylized, with a separate wikilink to the separate article about their career as a duo). I briefly assumed they were new characters in the story.
  • Done. — VJ
  • "Matters often questioned the Young brothers' decisions and admitted to being "lazy" and "cranky"." - Similar to Burgess' much-later claim above, I'm not sure this adds much to the story.
  • I've trimmed this one back to "Matters had quarrelled with the Young brothers' decisions."shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why Bailey and Clack were fired?
  • Unfortunately not. There's no sources backing up why they got fired. — VJ
  • "setting the line-up, which lasted", suggest "setting the line-up that lasted" (i.e. removing the pause) which I think flows a bit better.
  • Done. — VJ

Have to run now, but will hopefully return soon for more. Ajpolino (talk) 17:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

shaidar cuebiyar: are you able to do the rest? — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 03:55, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done (mostly).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few more.

  • In general, the article is quite long, currently around 9600 words – which Wikipedia:Article_size#Size_guideline classifies "probably should be divided or trimmed". Consider places where removing extra detail can focus the main storyline and improve the reading experience. I note a few examples that seemed extraneous to me, but you may be better able to differentiate the main thread from extra tidbits.
  • "They released the second single, "It's a Long Way to the Top (If You Wanna Rock 'n' Roll)"..." - This comes at the reader quickly. Do we know anything about the period between High Voltage and T.N.T.? We get some detail about the recording of the former, but nothing for the latter.
  • Done by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • The page range for current ref 53 (Browning 2014, pp. 100–256.) is excessively long. Can you narrow the page range at all (splitting up into several refs if you need to?).
  • There is only one ref that has the pages 100–256. Fixed it anyway. — VJ
  • "Their reputation managed to survive the punk upheavals and they maintained a cult following in the UK." Doesn't seem to add much to the story in its current form; suggest cutting or reformulating.
  • Removed by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "and sold three million copies in the US by 2005, according to the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA)" this statistic seems kind of random, both in its US focus (while the story has us in the UK) and in the specific date of 2005. Suggest cutting or replacing if possible (you could even support saying "eventually going on to sell over three million copies")
  • Done. — VJ
  • "However, their appearance at the 1976 Reading Festival in August did not impress the crowd." is this of lasting importance to their story?
  • Removed by shaidar cuebiyar. — VJ
  • "Butler denied the allegations... started slagging Sabbath..."" I'm not sure the article really benefits from Butler's account, which is taken 40 years after the fact. I think the previous sentence says all we need to hear.
  • Removed. — VJ
  • The article states that the Young brothers haven't given a reason for Evans' firing; Griffiths gives a weird reason; it informs us that Evans wrote an autobiography that covers the incident, but then leaves us to wonder what Evans' autobiography said the reason was! What does Evans say? (or if it's not worth including, some of the earlier detail could probably be trimmed so we're not left hanging so harshly).
  • "Evans returned to Australia, where he joined fellow hard rock group Finch" this seems potentially unimportant and cuttable.
  • Done. — VJ
  • "AC/DC's first...,[72] two years before they played..." Suggest splitting this into two sentences. With "...1975.[72] Two years later they played..." this would flow into the next sentence more smoothly.
  • Done. — VJ
  • "which appeared on 27 July" appeared seems an odd verb; made me think I'd misunderstood and it was a television special.
  • Done. — VJ
  • " Eddie Van Halen noted this as his favourite AC/DC record, along with Powerage." seems unimportant to the article.
  • Removed. — VJ
  • "Angus later recalled, "I remember ... can find him." - this quote is very long, and I don't think it adds much.
  • Done by shaidar quebiyar. — VJ
  • "Simon Kirke of Free and Bad Company and Paul Thompson of Roxy Music were two drummers who auditioned." Would suggest cutting, or merging it in a sentence about the auditions so it doesn't seem like abrupt extraneous information.
  • Done. — VJ
  • "As a result of this incident, Salt Palace eliminated festival seating for future events." not sure this tidbit is worth including.

Will return soon with more! Ajpolino (talk) 06:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The band performed it live when they appeared as a musical guest on Saturday Night Live on 18 March 2000." is this of lasting importance?
  • Removed by shaidar quebiyar. — VJ
  • "presented by Aerosmith vocalist Steven Tyler" is this important?
  • Removed by shaidar quebiyar. — VJ
  • " AC/DC made their video game debut on Rock Band 2, with "Let There Be Rock" included as a playable track." is this important? I assume (though I really don't know) that the band didn't have to do anything for this, but rather the game publisher paid someone for the rights to the song?
  • Ditto the next sentence *"The setlist... Rock Band Track Pack."
  • All removed by shaidar quebiyar. — VJ
  • "On 15 August, AC/DC recorded a video for "Rock 'n' Roll Train" in London, with a special selection of fans invited to participate." Is this important?
  • Done. — VJ
  • At this point the article is feeling like a series of press release snippets organized chronologically, rather than a cohesive narrative about the band. I'd suggest focusing in on the events and circumstances described by broader retrospective sources, using contemporaneous news blurbs just to fill out precious details. Since you're writing about such a famous modern topic, there will be endless news snippets on everything AC/DC-related; not all of it merits inclusion here.
  • "AC/DC rescheduled six shows on 25 September 2009 for Johnson's recovery from a medical procedure." is this of lasting importance?
  • Removed. — VJ

I'll stop here for now. At this point I think the article would benefit from some trimming to improve readability and highlight the main thread of AC/DC's story. I think the article currently doesn't quite meet FAC criterion #4 "It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail" or 1a "its prose is engaging and of a professional standard". I'd suggest giving the article a good look head-to-toe with an eye towards those things. I'm happy to give more examples, or to revisit and reassess later; just ping me if that would be helpful. For now, I'll have to regrettably oppose this article's FAC candidacy. Best, Ajpolino (talk) 00:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

shaidar cuebiyar: Hopefully you are able to sort out the remaining issues. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 01:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at some of these. Did the recent GOCE suggest any of this trimming? As Ajpolino has volunteered to provide further examples of improving this article's focus, I'd ask him to put his oppose on hold and let us continue as we have done. shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
shaidar cuebiyar: Nope. They just copyedit or reword things. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 07:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ajpolino. May I request to put your oppose on hold, and some further assistance in getting the article more focused? — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 06:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I'll continue with comments in the next day or two. There's not really meaning to putting an oppose "on hold" here. It would be most helpful if some other reviewers could have a look at the article. If no one else shares my concern, then I'm off base and you can ignore me. If others think the same, then we'd have more opinions on how to get the article cleaned up and ready to shine. Ajpolino (talk) 12:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 23:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, comments from first pass, continued:

  • Consider breaking strict chronological order to discuss a given event in its entirety. Two examples close to each other:
  • "The Black Ice World Tour was announced on 11 September and began on 28 October in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania... [5 sentences unrelated to the tour]... and closed the Black Ice World Tour in Bilbao, Spain, on 28 June 2010, after 20 months in which the band went to 108 cities in over 28 countries, with an estimated total audience of over five million."
  • "Three concerts in December 2009 at the River Plate Stadium in Argentina were released as a DVD Live at River Plate on 10 May 2011... [2 unrelated sentences]... AC/DC released their first live album in 20 years, Live at River Plate, on 19 November 2012."
  • "Due to Malcolm's severe illness..." comes as a surprise since we hadn't heard anything about him being unwell since taking time off for alcohol issues in the late 80s (a few sections ago). Can you add any more context here? You say fans speculated the group could disband; what was that based on?
  • I've added more information on Malcolm's health in previous section and reworded the start of this section. Hopefully it ties together better and is less jarring.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As above, I'll list material that seemed unimportant and cuttable. Perhaps it instead just needs more context to integrate it into the narrative. Perhaps it's best to cut it:
  • "Rudd released his first solo album, Head Job, on 29 August 2014."
  • Removed. — VJ
  • "Rudd pleaded... of home detention." this could be condensed a bit.
  • Were George Young and Denis Loughlin involved with the band in their later lives? If yes, perhaps you could add some context to the point where they die, to describe how that impacted the group. If not, I don't think their deaths need to be listed in this article.
  • George was involved with the band in 2000, producing Stiff Upper Lip. I'll delete the irrelevant people that was not later involved. — VJ
  • "On 28 September 2020, the band updated their social media accounts with a short video clip depicting a neon light in the shape of the band's lightning bolt logo. This led to speculation that they were due to announce their "comeback, possibly as early as this week or next week."" is the fact that they teased their reunion two days before announcing it of lasting importance?
  • "The band have dropped clues, giving "speculation" that they would be going on another tour in 2024,[234] as the mayor of Munich, Dieter Reiter, confirmed that the band had booked a show in the Olympic Stadium for 12 June 2024." similarly, the several sentences of teaser to the current tour could be condensed.
  • "The impact of Australian pub rock on AC/DC was documented on ABC's Long Way to the Top (2001)." we care that pub rock influenced AC/DC (described earlier), but I don't know if we care that ABC documented that influence.
  • Angus's reflection occurred on Episode 4 of that documentary series. The series is titled for one of AC/DC's local hits and details a history of Australian rock music from 1950s to 2000s. I believe the context for his commentary aligns with how his group was a part of the 1970s pub rock movement in Australia. It should remain.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They sold over 1.3 million CDs in the US during 2007, despite not having released a new album since 2000 at that point" seems arbitrary to give us just 2007 US sales figures
  • Done. — VJ
  • "is due to begin on 17 May" I assume this has now begun?
  • Done. — VJ
  • "The Canberra Times' Tony Catterall... musically better"." This reads oddly as a comment about the album TNT in the midst of a retrospective on AC/DC's career. Consider rephrasing or removing.
  • As shown, this is a 1976 comment by an Australian music journalist. Contemporaneous reviews of their early work is very rare. Huge volumes exist of commentaries post-1980 but few accuse AC/DC of being punk rockers or that Buster Brown were a better band. Catterall's comments are not positive and provide balance to the analysis of AC/DC's musical style.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "AC/DC's music has been variously described..." consider flipping the order of this paragraph and the one before it.
  • Done. — VJ

That got me to the end of my first readthrough. Once you've made it through these I'm happy to take another look – though as I said above, hopefully by then other editors will have shared their thoughts on the article. Best, Ajpolino (talk) 03:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

shaidar cuebiyar: Hopefully you'll be free. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 04:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vaughan J.: I've had a go at most of these, you'll have to tidy up any of my messes. Enjoy. shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No messes to tidy. You're all good. 👍 — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 06:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ajpolino: Me and shaidar have got everything sorted except a few comments. — VAUGHAN J. (t · c) 06:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Free and Candid Disquisitions edit

Nominator(s): Pbritti (talk) 19:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article covers a disproportionately influential religious pamphlet written by an otherwise minor figure in 18th-century English Protestant history. The pamphlet would prove the primary influence (besides the 1662 Book of Common Prayer) on American Anglican liturgies and served as a catalyst for the Unitarian prayer book tradition. However, its influence on the institution it was explicitly written for–the Church of England–was almost null. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:38, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serial edit

Will look in later today, UTC. ——Serial Number 54129 23:12, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Serial Number 54129: i really hope i'm not annoying you, but it's been six days 750h+ 08:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Serial Number 54129: if you're available, I'd appreciate you taking the time to add some comments. I'll had time midweek next week to thoroughly engage with anything you might bring up! ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

UC edit

Saving a space. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:28, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I am going to have to take this one slowly -- that is no criticism of the writing, but rather that there are a lot of political and doctrinal intricacies here and I know only very little about them. What follows is mostly about the lead: in general, I find myself wishing for just a little more context and clarification of the various people, parties and beliefs orbiting around the pamphlet itself. More to follow. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The text advocated for reforming the Church of England to enable the reintegration of independent English Protestants, particularly through changes to the liturgies of the mandated 1662 prayer book: this is pretty tough going for someone without a strong grounding in English religious history (is the CofE Protestant, again? Who were these independent Protestants, and how had they become disintegrated? What's a liturgy and what's the story with this prayer book being mandated in 1662? Wasn't there some other kerfuffle about mandating prayer books a bit earlier than that?) The lead has room to expand, given the length of the article, and I think a little more context would be helpful.
    • I gave fixing this a shot. There's a lot of ground to cover if someone isn't already at least broadly familiar with English ecclesiastical history, but I hope that the new lead paragraph is a little more clear. If you want more explanation, I'll add it!
  • statements from historic figures: if we mean "dead people", this should be historical figures: as written, it means "really amazing people".
    • Done
  • drawing several responding texts by contemporaries: I'm not sure this is quite idiomatic English. Suggest amending "The pamphlet's contents were the subject of significant discussion, drawing several responding texts by contemporaries" to something simpler like "Contemporaries [contemporary theologians?] widely discussed the pamphlet's contents, and wrote several texts in response to it".
    • Done: I didn't want to use "theologians" because some of those whose writings are mentioned weren't strictly theologians but rather the 18th-century equivalents to modern pundits. However, my sentence did read atrociously, so I hope it looks clearer now.
  • Is "Dissenters Protestants" usual in HQRS? Reads like "Catholics Christians" to me.
    • Despite its initial peculiarity, yes. On page 1 of Jasper's Prayer Book Revision in England, he refers to "Protestant Dissenters" (a term he largely uses interchangeably with "Nonconformists") to delineate between independent Protestants and Catholics who, for legal purposes, were sometimes treated similarly as groups of separatists from the Church of England.
      • My issue is with the plurals, not the terms: both of them are nouns, as written. The phrasing "Protestant Dissenters" sounds a lot more grammatical to me. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks, done.
  • Until the beginning of the Tractarian movement in the next century: I would clarify the nineteeth century, as it's not obvious whether we've crossed the century boundary in talking about all of these responses and influences. Or perhaps, more precisely, "the 1830s"? Isn't it more often known as the Oxford Movement?
    • Since there's some overlap during the 1830s into the 1840s (and the hesitancy of sources like Jasper to generally draw a hard line on the transition), I went with the more general "19th century". Forgot to mention, but in this case, I'm going with "Tractarian" because this is the term more associated with the specific liturgical proposals as described in RSs. They're fundamentally interchangeable, though.
  • Following the collapse of the Protectorate with the Stuart Restoration, King Charles II of England elevated the Episcopalian party that had been marginalized during the Interregnum: another dense one that could do with a bit of space to breathe, especially for those not familiar with the English Civil War and its aftermath: what was the Protectorate, who was Stuart, was the Episcopalian Party like the Labour Party, and was the Interregnum different to the Protectorate?
    • I ended up rewriting a substantial portion of this paragraph to clarify things a tad more.
  • who favoured bishops and other more Catholic practices: I worry here that we're unconsciously accepting one side of the argument: yes, Catholics had bishops, but did it follow that having bishops was a specifically Catholic practice (as opposed to a perfectly Anglican one?) After all, Catholics also built churches, but nobody would have said that building churches was a Catholic practice. Perhaps "other practices in common with Catholicism", "pre-Reformation practices" or something better along those lines? Would an Episcopalian have agreed that these practices were more Catholic (and less... what, exactly?)
    • I'd appreciate you checking if my tweaks improved the situation. I'm trying to stick with verbiage present in sourcing while avoiding implying any biases.
      • who favoured bishops and worship more similar to Catholic practices, that had been marginalized during the preceding Interregnum: there are improvements here, but also still some problems. Firstly, ambiguity as written: were the bishops or just the worship more similar to Catholic practices? Secondly, what's the antecedent of that: "Catholic practices", "worship" and/or "bishops"? UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see the reason for giving "St Bartholemew's Day", but as we're using it as a date, perhaps including the more conventional date would help those without a calendar of saints' days on their walls?
    • Done. What do you mean, I thought 17th-century kalendars were dispersed to everyone upon reaching the age of reason...[Humor]
  • William Sancroft, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had advised the bishops in his jurisdiction: does in his jurisdiction mean "all of them" (in his capacity as the senior primate) or "those in southern England"? If the former, I'd suggest cutting it as more confusing than helpful: if the latter (or something else), suggest clarifying.
    • I dropped the element that introduced vagueness. What's relevant to the subject is that Sancroft, as Archbishop of Canterbury, wanted institutional comprehension of Dissenters.
  • We've gone back and forth between "Anglican" and "Church of England" as adjectives: I'd suggest picking one.
    • Implemented with the exception of two cases where "Anglican" is the "correct" word.
  • prayer book revision: hyphenate as a compound modifier (it's used again later, too).
    • I opted to adjust the phrase throughout due to my own dislike for the hyphen rule's tendency to create punctuation confusion.
  • Suggest using p. as the abbreviation in the quote box (not pg.) to match the footnotes.
    • Done. Great catch!
  • The Athanasian Creed is linked on first and third mention: I can't really see a logic for linking the third but not the second (and, to be honest, I'm not sure I can see one for linking either of the latter two).
    • Done. That was a was an overlink. Thanks for the catch!
  • due to its incomprehensibility rather than any error: there's a potential confusion here around the meaning of comprehension: I think you're still using it to mean "making Anglicanism palatable to Dissenters", but a reader might be forgiven for thinking you now mean "people understanding the liturgy". "Due to its incomprehensibility" is also too subjective a statement, I think, to put so starkly in Wikivoice: presumably at least some people thought it was perfectly understandable?
    • Everyone–regardless of whether they approved or disapproved of the creed–seems to have agreed that it was a bit complex, so I went with that.
  • the removal of the Athanasian Creed (due to its incomprehensibility rather than any error), excessive repetition of the Lord's Prayer and Gloria Patri, and anything not permitted by the Bible.: I would have a look at rephrasing this one: the structure (in particular, the reliance of everything on removal) is a little murky, and it took me two reads to realise that he wanted to remove (what he saw as) the repetition of the Lord's Prayer rather than proposing its excessive repetition.
    • Is the adjusted sentence a little clearer? I'm also considering a multi-sentence version, but I want to emphasize that all these things are geared towards comprehension. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Courtesy ping for @UndercoverClassicist: are there any outstanding issues remaining? I'll have time Wednesday and Thursday to address any new comments. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A few more: sorry that I've not been particularly speedy:

  • Section IX sought correct printings of the Bible and prayer book: this seems like it would need some explanation: surely nobody wanted incorrect printings? Was there a particular problem with dodgy texts (the Wicked Bible comes to mind here)?
    • My understanding is that this is partially typological, partially theological. The only source to address this section in any depth is Hatchett 1982, which describes it thus: "The author pleas for correct printing of the Bible and Prayer Book". I tweaked the sentence to suggest typological corrections more clearly but I don't have an source that can get us further.
  • The article uses the -ized suffix: as the article has strong WP:TIES to Britain, I think we should use the BrE -ised. There may be other EngVar matters of a similar sort.
    • I went with Oxford English, a Wikipedia-accepted EngVar basically identical to British English but with "-ize" endings, because many of the sources I used did likewise. I've done the same with most of the other Anglican liturgy articles I've started. If you think standard British English is superior, I'll change it!
      • No problem here: it's your discretion to choose an EngVar that works for you and the article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we introduce Isaac Watts: in particular, that he was a nonconformist?
    • Yep, done.
  • Desiring a better metrical psalter, : not quite grammatical (a dangling participle): there's no grammatical subject for desiring except the Sternhold and Hopkins psalter, which clearly didn't desire its own removal.
    • Done.
  • Thirty-nine Articles is linked on second body mention, but not first.
    • Done.
  • reopening the Bangorian Controversy: a bit of background on what/when that was would be helpful.
    • Since the only source that engages with connection between the pamphlet and the controversy is rather dated and doesn't elaborate, simplifying in favor of encyclopedic summary.
  • Note 4: per MOS:CONFORM, we should put Boswell's title into title case.
    • Done.
  • Theological desires similar to those of Jones may have motivated Herring accepting a nomination to the archiepiscopate: could be clearer: perhaps "it has been suggested [by so-and-so] that Herring may have accepted the archbishop's position out of a desire to enact reforms similar to those suggested by Jones"? The current formulation is concise but also pretty tricky reading.
  • However, it is generally considered that ... However, Herring would express uncertainty regarding: can we look at the repetition of however? On another note, I'm not sure of the tense of would express: suggest "After his appointment, Herring expressed...".
    • Done.
  • Could like "peremptoriness" to Wiktionary?
    • Link? If so, done.
  • Jones published Catholic Faith in Practice in 1765 and established the Catholic Christianity Society: presumably Catholic doesn't mean Roman Catholic in this context? Is that worth clarifying?
    • Added "Protestant-aligned" with the hopes of clarifying that point.
      • As I read it, I would still expect that society to be full of Roman Catholics. If that's not the case, suggest footnoting. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Religious terminology, particularly in England, is rife with these frustrating usages that lend themselves to misinterpretation. I've decided to just delete the proper name on the grounds that, for the non-expert reader, what they don't know can't confuse them.
  • a half dozen individuals: any reason not to go with six people, or around it to something like "six further proposed revisions to the prayer book were published"?
    • Done.
  • only one was theologically orthodox: would the five other authors have agreed? Might be worth flipping the other way: that five questioned fundamental points of (Anglican? Christian?) doctrine.
    • Clarified.
  • Charles Wesley's 1784 The Sunday Service of the Methodists in North America was very similar to Lindsey's liturgy, Jones's suggestions, and the Savoy Conference's Puritan proposals.: ever since watching Dead Poets' Society, I have a visceral reaction to the word very. As written, this sentence implies that all three of Lindsey's liturgy, Jones's suggestions and the Savoy Conference's proposals were very similar to each other: is that true?
    • Tweaked and clarified.
  • Following the American Revolution,: I would put a date on this: most people will know it's vaguely in the late C18th, but the precise chronology is important here and not everyone will have it down.
    • Added some BLUESKY dates.
  • The proposed revision submitted in 1786 featured a preface of queries later described by liturgist Marion J. Hatchett as an outline of Free and Candid Disquisitions. as the most significant of the William Smith's work on the 1786 proposed prayer book led some of his fellow clergymen to believe he had made the revision with a copy of Free and Candid Disquisitions beside him.: this bit seems to have gone wonky.
    • Recent typo I introduced. Sorry about that!
      • Much better, though now missing a space before the start of this sentence. Might consider rephrasing (per MOS:IDIOM led some of his fellow clergymen to believe he had made the revision with a copy of Free and Candid Disquisitions beside him to e.g. used a copy of FaCD in the writing of his revised version -- there's a MOS:IDIOM quibble here that he may not literally have had it physically beside him, nor would it have mattered unless he read it and referred to it. It would at least be useful to clarify beforehand that Smith made a revised version of the prayer book; that lead is currently a little buried. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Gotcha! Per Marshall and the referenced writings, it appears that they quite literally (rather than hyperbolically/idiomatically) believed that Smith had a copy of the pamphlet at his side while working on his revision. I've adjusted the sentence to provide greater clarity and remove suggestion of idiom.
  • Demonstrating the desire for substantial change beyond simple alterations,: another dangling participle that would be better reworked.
    • Done.
  • Richard Watson, the Bishop of Llandaff, would publish...: better as simply published, I think.
    • Done.
  • forwarded revisions to restore these practices: I haven't seen forwarded to mean put forward here, as opposed to in the sense of forwarding a letter or email, but that might just be my own limited lexis.
    • Done. Changed to "prompted".
  • Strictly, a Low-Church bias should be hyphenated as a compound modifier.
    • Done.

I think that's all for a first pass -- over to you. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:11, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @UndercoverClassicist: Excellent comments! Hopefully I've addressed everything and feel welcome to add any additional comments as you see fit. I'm fairly available today and tomorrow UTC but probably won't be actively editing unless you find some more work for me. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:05, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Very few, but one or two comments above. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • @UndercoverClassicist: Thanks for your hard work! Do you see improvements where you wanted them? ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Yes, all good -- support. Thank you for your work on the article and your good humour with the review. I learned a great deal from reading it, and there are very few writers who can make such arcane liturgical debates so interesting. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: Pass edit

Working on it. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Armentraut/Slocum's "Prayer Book Preface" entry doesn't say anything about the 1979 edition.
    • Is the adjusted sentence better? I feel like it's BLUESKY but that's up to your judgement.
      • I think your BLUESKY point is valid. The source from 2000 refers to "every edition" and it only takes a minute to establish that the current edition is from 1979. Feel free to revert. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Armentraut/Slocum could use an ISBN. Though you're citing the online version, I think it's necessary since it is listed on the website.
    • Done.
  • Cuming could use an OCLC number. Same with Halkett.
    • Done.
  • Ditchfield 2005 has a date in the inline citation but not the source listing.
  • Ditchfield 2008 supports one sentence. Is that one sentence really supported by 17 pages of text? If not, a page number in the in-line citation would be appropriate.
    • The only version I had access to was this PDF. The pagination in it is not that of the book that it draws from. Should I use page 8 from the PDF even though that’s the wrong page number for the book?
      • I think so, especially because you link the PDF, which makes it the obvious go-to version for anyone wanting to verify the claim it supports in the article. I just modified the source listing myself in a way similar to a modification made through an FAC discussion like this for one of my previous successful nominations. Feel free to edit that addition a little when you add the page number to the inline citation. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked at Armentrout through Halkett and I'll have time soon to take a look at the other sources. Then I'll look more closely at the inline citations themselves and formatting. All of the books I've looked at so far are held by reputable-looking libraries, so I trust they're all high quality. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:49, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see New York City Wikilinked in one source listing and not in another. I recommend not Wikilinking either, given how commonly known a city it is.
    • Done: Whoops, that's an embarrassing mistake.
  • Oxford University Press shows up a number of times, sometimes with a publication city listed and sometimes not. You should add it in all listings.
    • Did you handle this? I don't see an example of this issue but maybe my eyes are glazing over.
      • Nope. I'm looking at Sharp, Stephens, and Stewart. Walsh also needs a publication city. And I'm also now seeing that Williams has no publisher or publication city. I see you're using an online version, but since it is based on a print work from 1959 with an OCLC number, I think this info is warranted. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, the ODNB template, again. Done. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peaston could use an OCLC number.
    • Done
  • Sharp, Stephens, and Stewart all have a date in the inline citation but not the source listing.
    • Done
  • The citations for Halkett et al and Healy both refer to page 327 in their respective books. Is that error or coincidence?
    • Yep, that's a coincidence–I never even noticed! I have a photo of the relevant page that I took when I had the book so I can privately message it if anyone needs to verify/check for close paraphrasing.
  • Watson 1999 needs more specific page numbering in its inline citations.
    • Done: The PDF is from OUP and I'm fairly confident the pagination marks are accurate, but I don't have the full ebook or a hard copy.

Having now looked through all the sources and citations, I would say they all look reputable. The Notes and Queries article sent up a red flag given its age (1860), but it is nevertheless a lot newer than the subject at hand, so I wouldn't call it a primary source or anything. And its a scholarly journal anyway. Everything else is either an at least relatively modern scholarly article or a reputable-looking book, almost all of which are held at academic libraries. The citations are consistently formatted, with a few minor exceptions to be addressed, above. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:36, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, Dugan Murphy! Your help has been outstanding. Let me know if you think of any other things that would preclude this from being a FA! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since all the issues I raised are addressed, and given what I said in my summary above, I say this source review is a pass. My own FAC nomination is just over a week old and only has one reviewer so far. Could you take a look? Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly! I should have time tomorrow. This does come with the caveat that I did do some monkeying around in the article in the immediate aftermath of that bizarre effort to PROD it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:38, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IMac G3 edit

Nominator(s): Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the mid-to-late 1990s, Apple Computer was teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and irrelevance. They were saved by a combination of ruthless cost-cutting by their new interim CEO, Steve Jobs, and a hit product—the iMac G3, which if you lived through the era helped usher in the colorful candy plastics era of consumer products, as well as reshaping the idea of what computers were supposed to look like. This article was reviewed at GAN by DFlhb and I look forward to acting on comments here to make this article on a major product in computer history shine further. Thanks in advance for your time reviewing! Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sodium edit

Putting myself down for a review. I intend to take a look at a review in a bit. (by next weekish) Sohom (talk) 18:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • but the company still needed new hit products. This probably needs a slightly less optimistic framing
  • ... became the iMac, to be inexpensive and with easy Internet connectivity. "to be inexpensive" seems to be off grammar-wise.
  • I feel like the Background could do a better job of transitioning into the rest of the article, the last paragraph is a bit stilted and does not do a good job of introducing the next section.
  • Engineers adapted the abandoned Common Hardware Reference Platform specification to speed development. Is it abandoned now or was it abandoned then?
  • According to Jon Rubinstein, Jobs had always known about the CD tray. I feel like we are missing something here. Why had he not raised this before according Jon?
  • The jpeg artifacting of File:IMac_G3_color_carousel.gif is noticeable even at its small size. I'd suggest removing it or replacing it with a GIF with a higher resolution.
  • How well did iMac G3 do in the traditional office/enterprise computing space that was prevalent during this time? Do RS cover it?
  • Hiawatha Bray said the iMac was doomed and a severe misstep from Jobs a word or two about why Hiawatha Bray thought the way they did would be nice.
  • two FireWire ports What is a FireWire port, the article kinda assumes that the reader is familiar but it would be nice to fit a sentence somewhere about what it does. (I guess I'm revealing that I'm Gen Z)
  • Wikilink VGA
  • Wikilink CD-ROM in the Release section
  • Ditto for CD-RW
  • maintained Apple's position as a leader of the emerging digital audio and video sector. Less optimistic framing, also this isn't directly in the cited source AFAICS?
That's it for me. sohom@enwiki 23:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Sohom Datta, thanks for the review. I've tried to address all the above; Bray's comments particularly revolve around the lack of a floppy, so I tried rewording the first mention in the high-level comments and then elaborated later on when discussing the drawbacks. I've reworked the end of the background section to introduce the players a bit and then shift to the specific project, let me know if that works better. The Rubinstein bit gets to the fact that Jobs was mercurial and (as the article talks about somewhat) pretty much would change his mind on a whim. That might be a bit too much going into the weeds, so I'm fine with just simplifying that bit so there's not the back-and-forth and it's a little more straightforward. Only thing I didn't change is the carousel image: as you can see it's not a very lossy GIF at full resolution, the limitation seems to be Mediawiki's thumbnail rendering, and I don't think there's a way of fixing that unfortunately. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The changes look good me. I disagree wrt to the gif, however, that is not worth opposing over. Support sohom@enwiki 03:39, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Generalissima edit

I'm in a productive mood today, let's get going on this.

  • Lede is uncited, and since there's nothing seemingly contentious here I'd say that hits WP:LEDECITE well.
  • Well, besides the infobox. That introductory price ($1,299) is neither referenced elsewhere in the article or cited for that matter. The price points of later models of the machine are given, but not the first. Should be pretty easy to fix this, however.
  • Everything in all body sections is cited. I don't see any potentially controversial or contentious claims that are uncited. Subjective claims are properly attributed.
  • Citation section is properly organized and titled.
  • Everything with pages has page numbers. The bibliography is also well formatted, and works are cited consistently with ISBNs and ISSNs as applicable.
  • Good mix of all sorts of sources here. I was a bit worried about Segall 2013 but it seems to only be used in an about-self context or for direct quotes so I think that's good here. I commend you on digging through 1990s and early 2000s computer magazines for a while; they have certainly been used well.

All in all, I think citing that price figure is the only thing left to do. Cheers. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 22:40, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Generalissima, thanks for looking. I went ahead and removed the price. The article covers the rough price range (and the more germane point it was cheaper) in the development, and then the lower base prices are discussed in the review, so I don't think you need the exact one (and doesn't seem to have coverage that makes the price so important it should be in the infobox.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for source review. Good job with this. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 13:30, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

George E. Mylonas edit

Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another archaeological biography, I'm afraid -- in lots of ways a sequel to the recently-promoted Alan Wace, as another of the major excavators of Mycenae. Mylonas was born to privilege in Smyrna, and had his studies in Athens interrupted by war: he witnessed the burning of his home town and was almost killed as a prisoner of war. He was the most prominent of the many Ionian refugees "adopted" by the American School of Classical Studies at Athens, and spent most of his career working in the United States and excavating in Greece. He is best known for his work on Grave Circle B at Mycenae, which provided a valuable counterweight to the older and far more rushed excavations of Heinrich Schliemann at Grave Circle A, and for his lovely appearance in Michael Wood's documentary on the Trojan War, in which he talks about visiting the citadel of Mycenae at night to talk to King Agamemnon. The article was reviewed at GA by Cplakidas: I have done my best to write it in American English, in keeping with Mylonas's lifelong association with American archaeology. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serial edit

  • Curiously, archaeology isn't linked outside the IB? (I think—or have I missed something so obvious!)
    • It wasn't; perhaps overlinking, but now linked on first mention (of "archaeologist") in lead and body. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Who profiled him in 58? As in, an official capacity, year book, reference etc?
    • A local magazine in St. Louis: they themselves are pretty unimportant, except that they interviewed Mylonas and he shared this detail with them. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mylonas attended Smyrna's Evangelical School, considered the most important Greek school in the city, until 1915". He attended until 1915, or it was only considered important up until then?
    • Given the comma before until, I think the only grammatically valid reading is the first, isn't it? UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:INTERWIKI, the link looks odd; I've never seen that in running prose before. But maybe just my loss.
    • I'm not sure which one you mean: do you mean the interlanguage link to Greek Wikipedia? Those are pretty standard where a page exists only in another language (but might later be created in English). UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "later an archaeologist ... by the archaeologist", can this be tweaked.
  • "once again handed him to the Turks". There's no mention so far of the crew having already handed him over (or anyone else doing so, I think). Would "immediately handed him over" express it better?
  • "former teachers at the International College". Can they be named?
    • Not by the sources I have, unfortunately. I doubt any of them were particularly notable by Wikipedia's standards, as secondary-school teachers. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "construction ... conducted". Perhaps "under the aegis of" or "overseen by".
    • No objection, but I'm also not sure what problem is being solved here: do you think the alliteration is harmful? UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • [Glad he got to see his Festschrift, at least]
  • Any more dates available for his children?
    • I've added the birth dates for the named daughters (Eunice not from a great source, but I think it's good enough for the purpose). Will see if I can find one for Alexander. and now for Alexander as well. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and taught at the same institution". This is slightly abrupt. From when? It's not automatic, of course, that he only would have started teaching on receiving his doctorate; I would expect from earlier. Any ideas?
    • Now "took a teaching post" -- not got the sources to be much more precise, unfortunately. Looking back at the source, it's even less precise; simply has "where he taught". I've gone for Mylonas taught at the University of Athens, from which he received his Ph.D. in 1927. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to which he gave its modern name". Wot had it previously been called?
    • We don't know what its ancient name was, but it's worth being clear, I think, that "Cult Center" is only really an educated guess as to what the building is/was. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great article, I learned much. Cheers! ——Serial Number 54129 14:19, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Media review (LunaEclipse) edit

  • Infobox image is fair use and has a solid rationale.
  • Second image is PD, so that passes too.
  • Grave Circle B image is not a copyvio, so it gets a pass.
  • Image of his grave is also freely licensed, so it also gets a pass.
  • "Eleusis Amphora" image is also freely licensed.

Support on media. Good job! 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 01:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you: much appreciated. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:11, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review (Generalissima) edit

  • Lede is uncited besides the O.S. footnote, and I don't see any claims here that need citations. Good for LEDECITE.
  • Everything in all body sections is cited, as are both footnotes. I don't see any potentially controversial claims that are uncited.
  • Getting to the meat of this, the citation sections are well formatted. The section and subsection headings here are clearly labeled.
  • Works cited are in alphabetical order, looks good here.
  • Everything that has pages has page numbers.
  • I won't go into detail on all the modern academic sourcing, but will look over things that seem weird at first glance.
    • Dr. Vogeikoff-Brogan's From the Archivist's Notebook is a blog, but she is a subject matter expert and so it works for these purposes.
    • Mylonas' cites go into the Selected Works section instead of the Works Cited. Huh. I have never seen this done before, but it's not against the rules and you did on Wace so thank you for the idea! This is really interesting.
    • Very old sources like MacLachlan, Luce, and Capps are used sparingly for biographical details and never as far as I can tell for anything controversial; when they give subjective opinions, they're attributed. Seems good to go on that front.
    • In Search of the Trojan War is used correctly to establish he was interviewed for this. It's cited correctly for video works.
  • Sources are consistently formatted. All books that existed at a time where ISBNs were commonplace have them, and older ones have OCLCs. Journal articles have DOIs, and ISSNs, and JSTOR numbers when applicable, as do the sparing books where the same is available. Good job here, this is hard to get right.
  • Overall, I don't see any source problems. I don't think a spot check is necessary here, but I can of course do one if you would so request. Support on source review. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:12, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for doing this -- you have anticipated just about everything I thought I might have to explain! Greatly appreciate your time and diligence on the review. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley edit

  • I infer from a first canter-through for typos etc that American spelling is intended, rather than the English spelling you have used in previous articles. Fine if so, particularly given his ties with the US, but the red links point to Cult Centre (Mycenae) with the English spelling and capital letters, and if that's going to be the article's title it should be so spelled here.
    • Slightly grudgingly, I think the best approach here is to change the target of the redlink to "Cult Center", treating that as a proper noun: I've done so. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The King's English has crept in at "cultural centre and medical clinic".
  • You might be consistent with dates: we have, e.g., " February 28 [O.S. February 15] was followed by 1 March". "July 1" but "3 July".
  • His name is treated rather inconsistently in the lead and info-box: in the opening sentence "George Emmanuel Mylonas (Greek: Γεώργιος Μυλωνάς, romanized: Georgios Mylonas" his middle name vanishes after one mention, and in the info-box his romanised name has a middle initial but his Greek one hasn't, which looks odd.
    • This is largely on the advice of User:Cplakidas, to whom I defer on most things modern Greek. The "Emmanuel" is a patronymic, rather than a middle name in the Anglo-American sense, and most Greeks wouldn't routinely use it unless differentiating him from another George Mylonas (which admittedly isn't a particularly unusual name). However, he consistently published as "George E. Mylonas" in English, so I've treated it is a stronger part of his English name than it was of his Greek one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pronunciation: I know nothing of modern Greek, but am I correct to infer from the omega in his surname that he is pronounced with a long "o"? I'm not sure, come to that, how to pronounce the first vowel in his surname. Upsilons and English don't mix well, I find. Is he "My-loan-ass?" A phonetic guide in the lead would be helpful.
    • Will work on this: I should be able to hash out the IPA with a bit of thought and research. I think "Mee-loan-ass" is closest. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've given it a go. I'm hoping that someone who actually knows what they're doing with IPA will cast a look over it at some point and fix any mistakes. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        • L2 Modern Greek speaker here, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The stress is always on the syllable with the accent (τόνος). In Μυλωνάς, it is in the final syllable, not the first, so it would be closer to mee-loh-NAS. Additionally, while YOR-yoss is close to the correct pronunciation of the diminutive form Γιώργος (actually YOR-goss but this is irrelevant), the full form Γεώργιος is actually something like ye-OR-yi-os. Emma Lexi Triphora (talk) 15:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
          Adjusted in line with that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More after I've perused properly. Tim riley talk 08:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second and concluding batch
  • "He was in Smyrna when the city was destroyed by the Turks in September 1922, where he delivered a Christian sermon" – the where being Smyrna but Smyrna is separated from its where by a when and the structure of the sentence seems strange
    • Slightly reworked to He was present at the destruction of Smyrna by the Turks in September 1922, and delivered a Christian sermon in Greek on the morning on Sunday, , for refugees who had sheltered in the chapel of the International College.
  • "he worked as the ASCSA's first bursar on a part-time basis" – mildly ambiguous: perhaps move the "part-time" element to immediately after "worked"?
  • "On his return, he directed the excavations" – on his return to where? Greece in general or somewhere more specifically mentioned earlier?
  • "directed the excavations ...under the auspices of the Archaeological Service,[24] which began in 1930 and continued in 1931" – that would be the excavations that began in 1930 and not the Service?
  • "Robinson had previously tried to manoeuvre another of his students –isn't that a BrE spelling rather than an AmE one?
  • "During the Second World War" – if we're in AmE I think the war is normally referred to as World War II in American usage.
  • "a state of affairs which persisted until 1952" – slightly pejorative overtones to "persisted"? Perhaps something more neutral such as "continued"?
    • I mean, the proximate cause was a civil war, and I don't think it's too much of a NPoV violation to say that those things are bad, but point taken: changed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which commenced on 3 July" – a quotation from a Noël Coward character: "I just can’t abide the word testicles. It's smug and refined like 'commence' and 'serviette' and 'haemorrhoids'. When in doubt always turn to the good old Anglo-Saxon words. If you have piles, say so!" And this is the current edition (2015) of Fowler: "It is a sound rule to use begin in all ordinary contexts unless start is customary (the engine started straight away; he starts work at 9 a.m.; the game started on time). Commence has more formal associations with law (to commence an action) and procedures, combat (hostilities commenced on 4 August), divine service, and ceremonial ... As a general rule it should be reserved for such contexts."
    • Changed to "begun" -- agreed it's rarely a good idea to use a great big word to do the job of a small, everyday one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He served on the council of the Archaeological Society of Athens, a learned society with a prominent role in the excavation and conservation of archaeological heritage, between 1969 and 1971" – I think perhaps the sentence would flow more smoothly and avoid a nanosecond's ambiguity if you moved "between 1969 and 1971" to the start of the sentence. Or you might possibly prune it on the lines of "He served the Archaeological Society of Athens – a learned society with a prominent role in the excavation and conservation of archaeological heritage – as a council member from 1969 to 1971, vice president from 1978 to 1979, and secretary general from 1979 until 1986".
  • "he was formal and aloof in his manners, preferring to address fellow excavation staff by their surnames and as "Mr." or "Miss." – does the source use the word "aloof"? Perhaps it's my advanced age, but I see nothing aloof in not using forenames as a matter of course.
    • Will check the source: Ellingson certainly found it unusual and frosty, but I'll dig out the exact wording she used. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Kaiser (the book author) adds She seems to have found them [George and Lena Mylonas] rather aloof after the quotation, so I think we're good here. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mylonas had a son, Alexander, shortly after his marriage to Lena" – I think this would be rather preferable as "Mylonas and Lena had a son, Alexander, shortly after their marriage"
  • "has been called the first publication..." – called by whom?
    • I think it's Panagiotopoulos (the source), but will check. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • It was: clarified. We could just go with "it was...", but my feeling is that the description is hazy enough to have at least one foot in opinion rather than fact, so ought to be attributed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "known as the Mycenaean Melanthron" – I really think you might give us an explanation of "melanthron"
    • Linked to Wiktionray (it's Greek). Also corrected the spelling. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Even with the corrected spelling I can't find it in Liddell and Scott, but I am happy to accept it's OK modern Greek. No further questions, me lud. Tim riley talk 17:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1955, he was made a Commander of the Order of George I by King Paul of Greece; he also became a Grand Commander of the Royal Order of the Phoenix" – also in 1955?
  • "Selected works" – we had an exchange about this header in the FAC for Alan Wace. I still think "selected works" signals a lack of the comprehensiveness required for FA.

Nothing earth-shaking there, I think. Over to you. Tim riley talk 10:27, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good. The few remaining minor points are neither here nor there (though pray tidy as and when you can) and I am happy to add my support for this admirable article, which seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. Tim riley talk 17:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks as ever, Tim -- I think that's all the rest addressed now. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. Splendid stuff, and full marks for the pronunciation guide in particular. Let me add that I admire your skill in distilling your articles for your leads, something I hate doing and am bad it. Brava! I look forward to seeing the article on our front page. Tim riley talk 20:07, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Matarisvan edit

Hi UC, some minor comments from me.

  • Is the Aspropotamos in the lead the one in Trikala or Evrytania? There are pages for both on here.
    • Sources aren't wonderfully clear here, but it's consistently "in Macedonia", which in that period was taken to include Thessaly, so I'm fairly sure it's Trikala. Pinging @Cplakidas: this sounds like something you would know? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • @UndercoverClassicist and Matarisvan: From the minimal context in the original source I can't tell for sure, and a quick Googling did not turn up anything conclusive. I would also strongly lean towards Aspropotamos in Trikala, as the name, when used without qualification, commonly refers to the upper course of the Acheloos river; the area is indeed close to historical Macedonia, or, put another way, Evrytania definitely is not in or near Macedonia; and I would expect more archaeological sites that would pique Mylonas' interest there than in Evrytania. Constantine 11:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider changing "His excavations helped to establish..." to "His excavations helped establish..."?
    • I think the "helped to ... and to..." structure is helpful to co-ordinate the sentence, but it might equally be possible to make the whole thing clearer by reworking and shrinking it. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the Aghios Kosmas you mention the same as Agios Kosmas? The latter doesn't fall in either of ancient or modern day Attica.
  • You have linked to the Greek Archaeological Service in the lead, would you consider linking in the body?
    • It's linked on first mention (near the end of the 1st paragraph of "Early life") UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would Washington University in Saint Louis require a 'the' prefix?
    • I don't think so: it doesn't usually in HQRS, and "X University" is normally not written with a "the" (so "at the University of Oxford", but "at Oxford University"), with a few exceptions like The Open University. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider linking to Greek Macedonia?
    • Yup, done.
  • Consider rewording "his work in the Western Cemetery uncovered the Eleusis Amphora, considered among the finest examples of proto-Attic art, in 1954" to "his work in the Western Cemetery uncovered the Eleusis Amphora in 1954, considered among the finest examples of proto-Attic art"? The latter is way easier to read. The former is confusing and it might convey that the Amphora was considered among the finest examples in 1954, and not that it was excavated in 1954.
  • Consider changing "surrounded" to "surrounding"?
  • Consider changing "He also served as chairman of the Committee for the Preservation of the Acropolis Monuments, a pressure group which aimed to raise official awareness of the threat from air pollution to the monuments of the Acropolis of Athens, between 1978 and 1986.[59] He died in Athens, two weeks after suffering a heart attack at his home, on April 15, 1988" to "He also served as chairman of the Committee for the Preservation of the Acropolis Monuments between 1978 and 1986, a pressure group which aimed to raise official awareness of the threat from air pollution to the monuments of the Acropolis of Athens. He died in Athens on April 15, 1988, two weeks after suffering a heart attack at his home"?
  • Consider adding the NYT and WU obituaries to the biliography? They've been used quite a few times. Also suggest adding the URL access level for the NYT link, for me at least the website asks for a registration.
    • It doesn't for me, at least not to read the digital text: the newspaper scan is paywalled, but it's the web version that's being cited. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The principle I've used is that the bibliography is for sources that can be sensibly cited as author-date: sources that can't (which also tend to be more ephemeral and primary things like news reports) are cited in full but not then repeated in the bibliography. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could we add a YouTube link for the Wood documentary cited? Here is the link I found for the episode in the citation: [9]
  • Consider linking to Nancy de Grummomd, Casey Dué, Robert D. Lamberton and Paul MacKendrick in the biblio, as done for other authors?

That's all from me. Cheers! Matarisvan (talk) 16:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for these -- all very wise and mostly straightforwardly implemented. Replies above. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:21, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support now that we have the pending location confirmation. Matarisvan (talk) 16:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Excellent article, which meets the FA criteria. Readable and informative throughout. I made two tweaks of what I hope are uncontentious improvements. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:11, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They are -- greatly appreciate you doing the shovel work of MDY dating in the bibliography. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz edit

Hi UC, I have a few questions and suggestions...


  • short description - move to top


  • and joined the Greek Army, where he fought in the - is "where" the right word here? and fought?
  • he moved to Johns Hopkins University to study under - add 'in the US' after "University" (not everybody knows)
  • Polystylos - is that an alternative spelling or should be Polystylus?
    • The -os is Greek; -us is Latin.
  • of the site's Cult Center - "Cult" is ambiguous without any explanation - (here and in the section Academic career in the United States and the section Honors, legacy and assessment.) The latter speaks of its "function" without clarifying that function. Is it a single building or complex? What did it consist of? Is there any entry on the Cult (disambiguation) page that could be used parenthetically after first and/or second use? Eg "(an area for religious purposes)"? Something, anything, to broadly suggest what Cult Center alludes to, until the red link turns blue.

Early life

  • and delivered a Christian sermon in Greek on the morning on Sunday, September 10 - morning of? or in the morning on Sunday?

Early archaeological career Academic career in the United States

  • Polystylos - per question in Lede above
  • initial fortification of the site to the fourteenth century BCE, with further development throughout the thirteenth century - clarify BCE or CE

Return to Greece and later life

  • He died in Athens, two weeks after suffering a heart attack at his home, on April 15, 1988.[60] He was buried at Mykines, the modern village adjacent to the site of Mycenae.[33] - I think this would be better at end of this section (and using Mylonas instead of "He")
Also, "two weeks after suffering a heart attack at his home" - maybe swap "suffering"? Although WP:SUFFER doesn't seem to suggest alternative words for this euphemism, I'd argue that '... after having a heart attack...' conveys enough?
  • When I checked the dates for the Festschrift in V-B 2017, I noticed "one can learn more about his long and distinguished career from his personal scrapbooks in the School's Archives." Do you think it is worth noting they are held there? (I'm only guessing that because V-B mentions "distinguished career" — even though "personal scrapbooks" — they might include his excavation notes, diagrams, sketches?) If not, where are such papers held?
    • I've added it -- they're mostly clippings from newspapers about him, which were an interesting and useful source (if bibliographically frustrating) when writing this article. Usually, a person's university would be a good port of call: WUSL has an archival object labelled "Mylonas", but that's just a letter to him; I can't immediately find anything like a "Mylonas Archive" there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

  • staff by their surnames and as "Mr." or "Miss."[63] - just checking that ref uses a full stop in the salutation "Miss."?
  • He also had three daughters - They also had?

Categories - suggest:

  • Category:Commanders of the Order of George I
  • Category:Grand Commanders of the Order of the Phoenix (Greece)

That's all I could find to ask about. I do enjoy these interesting biographies, thanks. JennyOz (talk) 11:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, Jenny -- all replied, I think. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:56, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • All looks good to me UC. Thanks for tweaks, I am happy to s'port promotion. JennyOz (talk) 05:32, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Choliamb edit

Very thorough. I noticed a few small inaccuracies:

  • Academic career in the United States. The article mentions 15 graves in Grave Circle B, but there are more than that. Are you distinguishing shaft graves from cist graves? To be fair, you don't actually state that these 15 were the only graves found, but that is what most readers will assume from the way the paragraph is currently written. Part of the problem is that you mention only the first two seasons of excavation (1952 and 1953), and omit any mention of the third season (1954), during which several more graves were found. And the chronology of the excavations given here, although it seems to come from Mylonas's article in Scientific American, does not agree in some details with the dates that he gives in the final report, published in 1973. In the latter he writes that he and Papadimitriou did not travel to Mycenae until 22 December (not November) 1951 to see the grave discovered by Charitonides the previous month, and then spent a week in January establishing the extent of the circle. The first season of excavation ran from 3 July to 10 October (not September) 1952, the second from 31 July to the first third of October 1953, and the third from 8 July to 6 September 1954. (All of this comes from Ὁ ταφικὸς Κύκλος Β, pp. 4–6, in the section Τὸ ἱστορικὸν τῆς ἀνασκαφῆς. This is BibAthArchHet (BAE) 73, and like the other volumes in the series, it's available in PDF format at the Hetaireia web site. Add link to citation?) As for the dates, you can choose which source to follow, but I would put my money on the comprehensive final report rather than the brief popularizing article.
  • Academic career in the United States. The article currently says Simultaneously, he served as an annual professor at the ASCSA, of which he was elected vice president in 1951. The ASCSA does not have a vice president, or a president. The governing body is the Managing Committee (which is less exclusive than it sounds, since the "committee" consists of hundreds of representatives from the various supporting institutions). The title of the executive officer is Chairman of the Managing Committee. As Meritt explains, in 1951 the chairman was Charles Morgan, and Mylonas was appointed vice chairman to serve as understudy in case Morgan was called away for military duty. (This was during the Korean war.) Although of course it was a sign of trust in Mylonas, it was not a especially remarkable honor, which is how the current phrasing makes it sound.
  • Return to Greece and later life. The usual English translation of the Επιτροπή Συντηρήσεως Μνημείων Ακροπόλεως (ESMA) is Committee for the Conservation (not Preservation) of the Acropolis Monuments. This is the name that the committee itself uses in all of its communications in English (see, e.g., the official web site here), and the way it is normally referred to in English-language scholarship. More importantly, it is inaccurate to describe it as a pressure group which aimed to raise official awareness of the threat from air pollution to the monuments of the Acropolis of Athens. In fact it is an oversight committee of academics, scientists, and engineers, established by an act of the Greek government and responsible for planning and supervising all of the restoration work on the Acropolis. Everything that has been done up there over the last 50 years (complete reconstruction of the Erechtheion and the Nike temple, restoration of the Parthenon, even the recent disastrous concrete paving of the surface of the hill to make it more wheelchair-accessible) has been the work of the Committee.
    • Found a better source for this bit, changed the name and added a more accurate description. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Return to Greece and later life. The article mentions the existence of his gargantuan Festschrift, which requires a small cart and a donkey to move from place to place, but doesn't tell readers what it's called or help them to find it; they have to click through to Vogeikoff-Brogan, and even then they will not know that they can read or download it for free at the Archaeological Society web site. V-B gives the monotonic version of the title; the polytonic version (as published) is Φίλια ἔπη εἰς Γεώργιον Ἐ. Μυλωνᾶν διὰ τὰ 60 ἔτη τoῦ ἀνασκαφικoῦ τoυ ἔργoυ (= BAE 103).*
  • Published works. If there's a consistent principle for inclusion or exclusion in this list of his publications, I can't see it. It omits some major scholarly works but includes ephemeral bits of fluff like the advice for tourists in the Atlantic in 1955. Mylonas was a prolific publisher: the bibliography of academic publications at the beginning of the first volume of his Festschrift is about ten times this length, and even so it omits all of the trivial stuff in the the popular press. Whatever the criteria for inclusion, the section title should be changed to something like "Selected works" or "Selected publications," to avoid implying that these are all or most of his published works.
    • In all honesty, the criteria for inclusion is "what I can find, without a university library or too much idea what I'm doing". I don't suppose you could send over a scan of that bibliography? It's worth thinking about an inclusion criterion here, and I must admit to not really having one in mind: books plus works cited in the article might work? UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PDFs of the entire Festschrift, including the bibliography in vol. 1, are available at the Archaeological Society web site. I'm sorry for not being more explicit about this; I think I assumed that, since you included links for the PDFs of Cosmopoulos 2013 and 2104, you knew where find them. But if you came across those via a web search or some other route, then you may not know that all of the volumes of the Βιβλιοθήκη της εν Αθήναις Αρχαιολογικής Εταιρείας are freely available at Click on Δημοσιεύσεις and then Βιβλιοθήκη της Αρχ. Ετ. and you'll get a list of them, sorted by date, with helpful thumbnails of their covers. (Here's a direct link to the BAE page.) There you will find, among others, Mylonas's publications of Grave Circle B and the west cemetery at Eleusis (BAE 73 and 81, respectively), as well as all four volumes of the Festschrift, Φίλια ἔπη (BAE 103). There are also similar pages for the volumes of Praktika, Archaiologike Ephemeris, and To Ergon. It's a real boon for anyone working on the kinds of topics you work on. But be warned: the PDFs of all volumes before the advent of digital typesetting are just simple photo scans and the file size can be very large (hundreds of megabytes). So don't try to read them on your phone! Choliamb (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS. The first volume of the Festschrift also includes a detailed 11-page biographical sketch. Depending on the level of your modern Greek, the idea of wading through it might fill you with despair, but you won't miss too much if you give it a pass: Iakovides relied heavily on it for his obit in AJA, so that provides a pretty good potted summary, and you've already included most of the important stuff in the article from one source or another. But it's worth looking through, if only to see the form letter from Richard Nixon asking for Mylonas's help in appointing the best and brightest to his administration. Choliamb (talk) 00:06, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Duh -- of course -- I hadn't twigged that the Festschrift was also in BAE. Embarrassingly, I've used the Archaeological Society's publications very heavily indeed for my writing on here! UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:16, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One of the most obvious omissions is the final report on the excavation of the west cemetery at Eleusis. His work in the cemetery is mentioned in the text of the article (and illustrated by a photo of the Polyphemos amphora), but the publication is not listed here. The (polytonic)* title is Τὸ δυτικὸν νεκροταφεῖον τῆς Ἐλευσῖνος (= BAE 81); it was published in three hefty volumes by the Archaeological Society in 1975, and like the other volumes in the series, it's available for free on the Society's web site. (Speaking of this, links to the PDFs of BAE volumes cited in the article are not consistently provided: you give a link for Βίος και έργο in the citation of Cosmopoulos 2013, but not for the same volume in the citations of Iakovidou 2013 and Vasilikou 2013, and there is no link for Grave Circle B.)
(* On the question of whether to convert polytonic Greek titles to monotonic, see my note on your user talk page. This article currently uses polytonic forms for works by Mylonas that were published that way, so I've done the same in the titles mentioned above.)
Changed -- I've replied to this one on my Talk. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Choliamb (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks as ever: once again, I greatly appreciate the effort you take to walk through the rationale for the changes suggested, and to do the shovel-work of finding bibliography for them. A few replies above; all agreed on the rest and I'm working my way through them. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blackrocks Brewery edit

Nominator(s): Ed [talk] [OMT] 04:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blackrocks is a small craft brewery in Marquette, Michigan, US, located on the south shore of Lake Superior. Over the last 14 years it has grown from a (remarkably) small operation in a former residential home to being Michigan's ninth-largest brewer.

This article is a change of pace for me, as all of my previous FAs are related to warships. It has undergone a GAN by An anonymous username, not my real name and a pre-FAC review from Mike Christie. Thanks for your thoughts! Ed [talk] [OMT] 04:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I don't have anything to add to the comments I made on the talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:54, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Comments edit

  • There's a few statements with "as of" dates, almost all of which are in the present tense, no matter what year they refer to e.g. "As of 2019, 51K IPA is Blackrocks' most popular beer" - 2019 was five years ago, so should this be in the past tense....? I note that you do have "As of 2021, Blackrocks was the ninth-largest brewery" in the past tense
  • "made it the second largest brewery [...] and raised them" - subject changes from being singular to plural mid-sentence
  • That's all I got - nice work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks, ChrisTheDude! I've updated these statements. I removed the as of 2019 entirely, as it's still the most popular beer and has been for most of the brewery's existence. Ed [talk] [OMT] 19:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:08, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. Route 101 edit

Nominator(s): SounderBruce 03:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hugging the Pacific Ocean for most of its 1,500 miles, this highway is both a scenic route and an engineering marvel with dozens of grand bridges, including an orange suspension bridge that you may have heard of. This article on U.S. Route 101, also known as "the 101" in the Los Angeles area and the "Redwood Highway" or "Pacific Coast Highway" in more scenic areas, was overhauled last year and I've finished some recent tweaks that I believe bring it up to FA standards. It is a summary article with three sub-articles for each of the states it passes through, so some details are left to those instead. SounderBruce 03:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski edit

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

  • U.S. Route 101, or U.S. Highway 101 (US 101), is a north–south United States Numbered Highway that traverses the states of California, Oregon, and Washington on the West Coast of the United States - i get that the article is at United States Numbered Highway System, but do we need to state "United States Numbered..." Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 22:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Moved to second sentence.
  • It travels for over 1,500 miles - well, the road itself doesn't travel. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 22:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Changed to "runs", which some editors object to but is also valid in American English.
  • major route in the United States Numbered Highway System - do we need to say the last part of this? Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 22:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Numbering section explains why this is necessary, but I have shortened it.
  • So most of the lede is fine, but it seems to pretty much only talk about it's route. There's a solitary mention of the date of it being built, and there's no info on things I'd expect of travel - things like how much they are used. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 22:42, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • For an FA, the article goes from a lede into a piece about how it's number isn't usual, but surely the name of the road isn't the most important thing about it. There doesn't seem to be anything outside of the lede that states what the article is about. The route description should come first Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 22:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Moved to between Route description and History sections.
  • Of these two-digit routes, the princ