User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz/Archive 46
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RfAs
Regarding your vote at Paulmcdonald's RfA
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Kiefer, quick question for you, and this is not intended as badgering nor necessarily for you to change your opinion, I am just trying to understand your opinion a little bit better. A week or two ago, during BDD's RfA, there was some concern about his content creation. Someone asked someone on someone's talk page (and if I could remember who and where I would link it...I checked the most common talk pages I stalk and couldn't find it, perhaps someone could find it and post a link if they remember reading what I am about to talk about). So as you can imagine, I am roughly paraphrasing, but this editor, who classified himself as a content creator, was talking about what he finds the traits of a content creator. He said something to the effect of "once you have articles that you have poured your heart into sent to AfD by an American teenager without any legitimate reasoning, then you can call yourself a content creator". Would you agree to that statement? If so, isn't that roughly what happened here five years ago? Again, I am sorry if I misinterpreted a) what the person who said this was trying to say or b) I misinterpreted what you were saying, but that link reminded me of what whomever originally posted that was saying, and I was interested to see if you shared his view. Before I confuse myself to the point I have lost track of what I am trying to say, I am going to stop now . Thanks. Note: I was originally going to post this in the RfA itself, but decided your talk page might be a better venue for me to understand your view. Thanks! Go Phightins! 19:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
My question is answered, so I am fine. Thanks again, Kiefer. Let's not let this turn into anything more than a question and an answer. Thanks. Go Phightins! 20:36, 1 May 2013 (UTC) |
Thanks, and have some pierogi!
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Thanks for your support of my RfA. It didn't succeed this time, but that's no reason not to have some nice pierogi. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)|}
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Quick Note from an Admirer of Your Work
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First and foremost, I wanted to let you know that I've seen many of your edits (all of them constructive) around Wikipedia, and I really appreciate them and admire your dedication. I hope that someday I can have your edit count (through the positive means that you've used) and the respect that you've garnered around here. With that said as well as an acknowledgement that I lack the experience that you do, I was very disappointed when I saw some of your comments at Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Pjoef. While I agree with your vote, I noted that when users questioned you, you seemed to take offense and resorted to what I perceived as personal attacks. Now, obviously, nobody is going to come in here and yell Wikipedia policies at someone of your stature, but, as I admire many of the approaches you've taken in the past, I thought that this was in deep contrast to your norm and that your points could have been better made without resorting to condescension towards other experienced editors. Please feel free to delete this note after you read it, and please also know that I mean no offense. I just think you set a better example through reason and calmness. Cheers, and happy editing! --Jackson Peebles (talk) 04:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
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Sevenths chords
Tertian harmonization of C-major scale
Major-thirds tuning for guitar: Fretboard diagrams
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:06, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 10:59, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
New guitar
Guitar acquisition syndrome
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My choice for a new guitar, see this.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Here's the sound.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:31, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
Bridge popped offI bought the Russian guitar already having steel strings. Today, the bridge popped off. I think that I'll reglue the bridge with superglue and then restring it with nylon, which should be easier for my daughter to strum. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:50, 12 May 2013 (UTC) |
Swedish?
Resolved apparently
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I noticed you mentioned some swedes on your user page. Do you happen to speak Swedish? Carl Emil Pettersson is an unfinished translation and it doesn't have inline citations. I can get the book Kung Kalle av Kurrekurreduttön – en resa i Efraim Långstrumps fotspår through an interlibrary loan and scan pages, but I can't read it to help fix the citations. I'm looking for a Swedish editor to help out. Ryan Vesey 5:49 am, 17 January 2013, Thursday (9 days ago) (UTC+1)
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DYK for Alfie Fripp
On 17 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Alfie Fripp, which you recently nominated. The fact was
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— Crisco 1492 (talk) 9:02 am, 17 January 2013, Thursday (9 days ago) (UTC+1)
- 11,773 views! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:07 pm, 18 January 2013, Friday (8 days ago) (UTC+1)
- Wow! Awesome - well done :D Pesky (talk) 7:48 am, 19 January 2013, last Saturday (7 days ago) (UTC+1)
- Nice to see a nice fellow from Dorset mentioned, instead of the Green fellow.... ;)
- I had not known that The Great Escape was a British yuletime tradition. Of course, WWII must strike nerves in GB even more than in the US.
- My grandmother was interviewed about meeting my grandfather in WWI, when she was a nurse who cared for him after he had almost lost his leg to a German bullet (discussing losing ships on the convoy to England, etc.), we had people calling the house in tears. (Don't get me started on The Zimmerman Telegram and "unrestricted submarine warfare"!) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 1:20 am, 21 January 2013, last Monday (6 days ago) (UTC+1)
- Wow! Awesome - well done :D Pesky (talk) 7:48 am, 19 January 2013, last Saturday (7 days ago) (UTC+1)
WikiProject Good Articles Newsletter - February 2013
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Administrators thinking that "National Socialist" is an everyday pleasantry
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Administrator Giant Snowman repeatedly applies "Nationalist Socialist" but warns me about "personal attacks"
Please do not use edit summaries attack other editors (better still, do not attack other editors anywhere) - calling somebody else a "piece of shit" is too far. GiantSnowman 20:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Fatuously and maliciously, to what does National Socialist refer?Honestly, to what did National Socialist refer?Administrator Giant Snowman, in his repeated smearings of Lihaas as a "National Socialist", asked to "what does National Socialism link", an irrelevant question. The relevant question is to what did Lihaas refer with his user box, even before he outed himself as a liberal interested in reducing Eurocentrism on Wikipedia. A pity that Giant Snowman spent more time smearing Lihaas, repeatedly, than investigating Lihaas's contemporaneous edits to the Wikipedia article on National Socialism. Of course, it is a violation of WP:NPA to make false allegations or to present edits out of context. Of course, administrators with backbone to discipline the Giant Snowmans and Frams are in short supply, if any exist. I suppose that ArbCom hypocrites signed off on the "Civility Enforcement"'s plaintive complaint about "uneven enforcement of civility" without intending to do anything about malicious administrators misusing their batons. The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I quote from the Civility Enforcement circus Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:09, 9 May 2013 (UTC):
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC) On administrator privileges
Administrator Fram on "National Socialist" from fellow administrator Giant SnowmanFram's blockPlease explain! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Considering your previous blocks for personal attacks and disruptive editing, and because you still can't drop a dead horse from two years ago (which lead to your first block then) but continue to bring it up at unrelated discussions, I have blocked you for one month. Personal attack, more personal attacks, and more. Fram (talk) 08:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I suppose that 30 days should be a badge of honor in standing up to "National Socialist" abuse, which is so much easier for non-cowards than to stand up to the real thing. After all 5 > 3. Kiefer.Wolfowitz
Take home message
Outside views on Fram's behaviorDouble standards and WP:Involved
Fram's personal attacks: A selection
Fram's revisionist historyFram is just fabricating fantasy on his talk page.
It is a pity that administrators making false allegations and bad blocks face no consequences for their NPAs and harassment. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Moved from below
You will respect my autoritah!Earlier history. C.f. South Park's Eric Cartman's "You will respect my autoritah!" Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:18, 10 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz now blocked for 24 hours for continued discussion of the "national-socialist" issue after ample warning. Fram (talk) 10:05, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Kiefer.Wolfowitz, drop the whole "Lihaas was smeared" thing[7], or you'll get blocked for disruption. This has been discussed to death, no action is going to be taken, no one is going to do anything about it. Rehashing this over and over again is disruptive. Fram (talk) 09:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
You have been blocked for 24 hours. What was so hard to understand about "drop it"? Fram (talk) 10:03, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Kiefer.Wolfowitz (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: This seems like a punitive block, given my acknowledgments: * I had just acknowledged that it was unproductive to discuss the "double standard" issue at ANI. * I had not responded to the latest mention of "national socialist" at ANI. * I had just written at ANI that discussion of the "national socialist" issue should be limited Wikipedia venues, e.g. RfCs, RfAs, ArbComm elections. This seems like a punitive block, given my acknowledgements that future discussions of "national socialist" were improper except perhaps at these venues (and only in rare circumstances, which I would imagine would only involve 2 editors). Decline reason: Right up to your last edits before being blocked you were persisting with your disruptive editing. Saying "I acknowledge that it might be a good idea to beat something other than this dead horse" while beating the dead horse is not putting the stick down and walking away from the dead horse. JamesBWatson (talk) 13:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. I shall format the diffs outside the appeal box, because the diffs choke the compiler.
Changing this section's header from "Lihaas" to "Double standards: "Bitching and moaning" gets a block"[10], and starting the following section on "free speech", doesn't give me confidence that unblocking would be wise, but I'll let another admin decline or accept the unblock request as they see fit. Fram (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I quote the disruption-section of the blocking policy:
How was I disrupting anything? I agree that I was drawing attention to the double standard at ANI, but this was not in any way disruptive. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:19, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
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Lord Sjones23
Lord Sjones23 would do better to develop his reading before again violating talk-page guidelines or wasting Dennis's time further. Don't edit this page again. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:50, 10 May 2013 (UTC) "You will respect my autoritah" IIHis "I have an exceptionally low tolerance with regards to uncalled for disrespect or incivility obviously" is funnier than Fram's statements above. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:09, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The community of Wikiputzia
Quotation from DB's talk pageThe following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Disable talk page access? Hi. I don't know if you are aware of the recent activity at User talk:Kiefer.Wolfowitz. There's a probable issue going on in his talk page especially with regards to his disruptive editing since he is blocked for 1 month by Fram and he has posted a copyvio link to a Youtube video on his talk page. Can you please do something about this? I would rather not get myself blocked over trivial matters and I have an exceptionally low tolerance with regards to uncalled for disrespect or incivility obviously. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
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Unblock?
This unblock request is in danger of being lost given the chaos of the formatting on this page. To increase visibility, I've commented on the bottom of the page. Could everyone please try to keep that discussion focused. Thank you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:14, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Teething babyAll else aside: I had one of those around the house about 9 years ago, and it wasn't much fun, except that she was mine, so it's all fun, and special. I want to tell you not to worry, because it's all downhill from there, but you're a very bright guy, and you have a fully functional bullshit detector (and maybe previous babies), so I won't. Now I'm less concerned about her crying and keeping me awake (that still happens, but it's bimonthly rather than daily now), and more concerned about other things like education, and impending teendom and such. I'm lucky - she's an exceptional kid, and bright, so problems are minimal. It's all priceless though, so enjoy every frustrating, sleepless minute while you can. I'm at a loss as to how you're still blocked - seems bizarre to me, but then I remember where I am. Good to see you're still active, even while blocked, and hope to see your signature around more widely again soon. ttfn. Begoon talk 14:16, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
Block reviewI see that there is a pending unblock request on this page, which is in danger of being completely lost given the formatting of the page. The gist of the blocking rationale is personal attacks on other editors and one can understand why some of your edits might be understood in that fashion. Kiefer.Wolfowitz, I don't ask you to make any insincere confessions of wrongdoing or promises you can't or won't keep, but I do ask if you might be able to sand down some of your sharper edges if this block were to be lifted or reduced. Thank you for your response. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:12, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
That being said, I have no intention of breaking policy, and I shall strive to respond to personal attacks, falsehoods, This block has long become punitive in its duration, which again was explained to be based on two falsehoods; it would be late in the game (but unsurprising, alas) for Fram to state new reasons for the 30-day length of the block. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Unblock
You can remove anything from your talk page that you want, I promose. Please be kind enough to want, if only because I'm asking. I assumed we are moving past yesterday, and moving on to tomorrow. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 22:47, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
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Resist the occupation of the Mule: Write the encyclopedia of the Second Foundation
Reply to Kurtis
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You should review rhetoric: The beginning of a sentence is not the climax of a sentence (c.f., Wayne Booth, or Kenneth Pike and Alton L. "Pete" Becker, for example). I began with humor and ended soberly. Either Kurtis or My76Strat is welcome to link to my response, or copy it---whatever is simpler. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:05, 6 May 2013 (UTC) |
Revert bad edit, Fram
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Fram, please revert this edit. The "trivial" theorem uses the axiom of choice. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
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Here's to the state of Mississippi: Prom night
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Doin' the CharlestonMalleus, Morgan Freeman paid for a desegregated prom. I recommend the documentary Prom Night in Mississippi [13]. Mike Wallace had an interesting profile and interview with Freeman on 60 Minutes. Swedish television loves to show documentaries about the Klu Klux Klan in the USA, where they profile e.g. an old man whose daughter had been raped by a Black man and who is filled with hate, and who is pitied by the other residents, including the Sheriff. A subvariety of "Orientalism", perhaps. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:08, 10 May 2013 (UTC) |
Updating diagrams please
Thanks again, INeverCry! :) |
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Would somebody please upgrade the diagrams in Guitar chord from pdf to cropped svg? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:24, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
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"Shapley-Folkman lemma": Featured article on Russian WP
Somewhat streamlined, the translation is now a featured article on the Russian WP. Well done! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Elizabeth Kucinich: BLP
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Please delete the trivial proposition that Elizabeth Kucinich has a tongue stud, which does not belong in an encyclopedia. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:27, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
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Good article review of Battle of Belgium needed
The lede has a statement of "extraordinary bravery" of Belgian soldiers, but omits a discussion of far greater French and British casualties (90 and 68 thousand) in defending Belgium or of Churchill's condemnation of the capitulation, so there's a definite problem of WP:Lede (inadequate and POV summary of article). There's no criticism of pro-Nazi and anti-liberal reaction and cowardice, such as contained in Yves Simon's criticism of French decadence. The article is overly militaristic and has little on Belgian society Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:21, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Interlibrary Loans
Rare books arrived sooner than expected, necessitating quick updating of articles.
Moot
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Patt studied under George Russell,[1][2] whose (1959) The Lydian chromatic concept of tonal organization for improvisation he edited.[2][3][4][note 1]
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Cornel West Democracy Cafe Thing
Please read this: http://www.thedp.com/article/2012/11/cornel-west-lectures-on-socrates-democracy-and-social-responsibility — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsoMorpheus (talk • contribs) 04:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks! That was an interesting article. However, student newspapers need not be reliable sources, and in general they are of low quality and useless for due-weight considerations.
- Moreover, that article has no mention of the Socratic Cafe, so it does not even establish a link. Today the page has a link to an earlier article in the student newspaper that mentions that West should come and give a "one time" cafe, which is utterly trivial. West probably has given pats on the back to thousands of such programs, and we cannot mention them all; there's no reason to mention your favorite Socratic cafe unless you have a reliable source stating that it is an important project of West's. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
R U serious
Not a forum. (Banned users contribute here, too, sometimes with the acquiescence of ArbCom members.)). BIG STATEMENT. WP:REDFLAG. Got evidence of this? Russavia (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- You were
bannedindefinitely blocked and you remain indefinitely blocked on three projects. ArbComunbannedunblocked you.Backwards error analysis QEDSloppy heuristic. (I was thinking of other examples, but thatsufficesis suggestive.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC) 20:13, 19 May 2013 (UTC)- I was not banned. I was blocked. Big difference. Anyway, the link you provide makes it sound like you are saying that Arbcom members allow Kohs and Barbour to edit. Is that the case? I hope not. Russavia (talk) 18:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- You are correct. Sorry about the mistake of ban when you were indefinitely blocked. Have you ever been banned by any Wiki? When I made the comment, I was thinking of comments by wise experienced editors after a recent revelation regarding a banned editor favoring initials "M" and "T", about knowledge by ArbCom members. The MT person did make many very good edits, in many accounts, after being banned.
- But the point is that banned editors are editing here, often making very good edits. Nobody denies that fact. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:26, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- It is easy to catch sockpuppets who make controversial edits in limited areas, vandalize, harass, or who are simply not very clever. Catching smart, banned editors who are trying to make quality edits in a variety of areas without causing problems is virtually impossible and seemingly a lower priority. They are not the low hanging fruit like POV warriors are. As for Arb members, I am clueless as to their opinions on the matter. Dennis Brown - 2¢ - © - @ - Join WER 18:42, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- BTW, you made good edits, imho, in removing the "mission statement". The Wikipediocracy article will be a minefield unless people use self-reports only for color, providing a few details in addition to propositions documented in reliable sources, rather than to guide the article. (C.f. Discipline Global Mobile, where I've tried to use DGM and other primary sources only for color.) Darkness Shines is correct about it not being a copyvio, although he was wrong to restore it, imho.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- I was not banned. I was blocked. Big difference. Anyway, the link you provide makes it sound like you are saying that Arbcom members allow Kohs and Barbour to edit. Is that the case? I hope not. Russavia (talk) 18:15, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
You rang
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The Drmies chronicles...but I was on the other line, a couple of 'em. You're unblocked now, I saw a few days ago; good. I'm sorry you were blocked in the first place. Much discussion has passed me by in the last few weeks since it's been a busy time. In other news, baby Liam can stand for ten Mississippis, and he enjoyed being in the sea this past weekend. All the best Kiefer. Drmies (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
In place of a taser or chains
Art for Art's sake
Future RfAs
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Foundation, 2nd foundation, and empire
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Gotta ask, how does Asimov feature on Wikipediocracy? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
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Hive of knuckle-dragging malice
Wikipediocracy
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Corrections needed"Organization" is imprecise, and fits better a cub-scout den or a Wikipedia administrator-wannabe/"adoption" school. "Corporation" is more precise, and should be reinstated. (This issue has been discussed already, in edit summaries.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:01, 10 June 2013 (UTC) Wikipediocracy DYKRegarding these points: I wasn't actually suggesting that those things be put in the article as is, because I know I don't have a source for them. Those are just my impressions about Wikipediocracy based on what I've heard around here, and I assumed there would be sources for them and that, if there were sources, it would be good information to have in the article. If there aren't sources for that then of course there's nothing to be done. I don't know much about Wikipediocracy; I've just heard people say things about it here, and those are the impressions I've been given. As for focusing the DYK on a specific controversy, that's actually what I was suggesting avoiding. Like I said about the Russian Wikipedia bong controversy, I think a hook like that draws more attention to the links regarding the controversy than to the link to the Wikipediocracy article. rʨanaɢ (talk) 12:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
From the talk page of Volunteer Marek
(Copied from talk page of Volunteer Marek. I just contributed a bit of copy-editing and expansion.... Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC) ) |
May 2013
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Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Jazz guitar may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.
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Cornel West Democracy Cafe Thing
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Please read this: http://www.thedp.com/article/2012/11/cornel-west-lectures-on-socrates-democracy-and-social-responsibility — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsoMorpheus (talk • contribs) 04:30, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
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Student newspaperWhat's the reliable source that says the U-Penn student newspaper is an unreliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsoMorpheus (talk • contribs) 23:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
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SDUSA and New Politics (McGovern)
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Would somebody please revert the redlinking of dab pages with explanations, which at least informs the reader? (This is a unconscious EW-violation of the BRD cycle, by somebody using semi-automatic tools). It might be better to link it to George McGovern's politics. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
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Hey
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Hey, I thought I'd drop by and say I'm sorry I was a jerk to you before, you are an asset to wikipedia, good luck, IRWolfie- (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
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June swoon
A reasonable start...
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AN discussionSuggested interaction banI have started a discussion about you and some others at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive249#Interaction ban proposed. Fram (talk) 13:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
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Interaction ban proposed
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These were "good closing comments" in the sense that they were very diplomatic, in that they made the rights nods in the right directions, that they were worded in a way which made sure that no one can accuse the closer of wrong intentions or bias, in that they were a well designed to end drama and in that they made an appearance of "resolving" the situation. But it was still a bad close.
But you strip away all the rhetoric and fancy language and what it boils down to is this:
What that means is that Horologium's indefinite block stands, until such time either Horologium or another uninvolved admin (after consulting with Horologium per our blocking policy) are convinced that the behavior (i.e. accusing another of misconduct without evidence and in such a way that reasonable people may infer an accusation of sexual misconduct) will not be repeated
You can put all kinds of nice words on it but what it amounts to is 1) Kiefer is indef/infinitely blocked and 2) you authorize the interpretation of his comments as suggesting sexual misconduct (please, look up the difference between the words "imply" and "infer" in a dictionary!) which was not supported by many of the commentators and by not unblocking him and, more importantly, making it very difficult for ANY admin to unblock him you imposed consensus where there was none.
Was it a good close? No, despite all the ass kissing above. Was it well played? Yes, yes it was.Volunteer Marek 01:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- A decent close would have at the very least outlined the conditions for Kiefer to resume editing, particularly since it's pretty obvious from the discussion that the original block did not have overwhelming, or even "strong" support. It didn't do that. All it did, in practical terms, was turn the word "indefinite" into the word "infinite". Without justification, against policy, against consensus. There was some nice words in the closure, there was some "on the one hand, on the other hand" sops to the parties involved, there was a lot of "cover my own ass when I do this", but at the end of the day... it gave one side of a contentious dispute (the "hang him high and humiliate him" side) everything they wanted without even leaving a crack of an opportunity for Kiefer or the people who think that this is a person whom the encyclopedia needs.
- That's pretty much the definition of a "bad close". Nice words and all.
- How exactly does "KW hold the keys to resuming editing"? There was nothing in the wording of the closure which would indicate a willingness to undo that or to actually hand him these "keys". You can say false things like that but... they're... just... not... true. So stop it. That's actually called "lying".
- .... Volunteer Marek 02:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Blocked
I have blocked you indefinitely for [26]. That edit (and the edit summary) is far out of the bounds of acceptability. I will be posting on the noticeboard thread in a minute about this block. Horologium (talk) 20:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- You have no idea what you're talking about. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:56, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Read what I wrote. I accused nobody of being sexually used by DU1000---certainly not WTT. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:17, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- Comprehension seems low today, Kiefer. I, for one, understood what you meant. Intothatdarkness 21:19, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- "Is he behaving appropriately towards these boys and young men?" How did you expect that to be interpreted? AutomaticStrikeout ? 21:28, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- When read in the full context of what was going on there, I take it to be a question as to whether an experienced user should be encouraging new users to fight his battles for him. But people will read what they wish into things. That's always (IMO) been one of KW's written weaknesses. His style is opaque at times and easy to misunderstand or twist. Intothatdarkness 21:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- So substitute "young people" if it makes you happy, and strike the offending phrase. Please focus on the issue, which is recruiting pawns. Should he have been advising Luke to pursue an RfC targetting me? Should he have been egging on gwickwire? etc. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:06, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
- When read in the full context of what was going on there, I take it to be a question as to whether an experienced user should be encouraging new users to fight his battles for him. But people will read what they wish into things. That's always (IMO) been one of KW's written weaknesses. His style is opaque at times and easy to misunderstand or twist. Intothatdarkness 21:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Back to business
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I've now protected the page for one day. This is to try and stop this spiralling and rather pointless argument. People really need to read Wikipedia:No angry mastodons and understand none of this is helping build an encyclopaedia.--Salix (talk): 23:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
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Quite a show of AGF
AN is putting on quite a show. We've had calls for blocking me indefinitely unless I apologize for the edit. Above, I already asked for somebody to strike the phrase that evoked hysteria.
Ironholds should correct his falsehoods, e.g., his fabrication of "young boys", which I never wrote. Similarly, The Rambling Man should remove his misrepresentations of what I wrote, in which TRM alleged man-boy grooming, and try to behave according to WP:NPA and WP:Civility.
As I understand it, I am indefinitely blocked because an administrator misunderstood what I wrote, and tried to guess at my intentions.
Soon thereafter, AN has been hit with persons trying to ban me from RfAs, using this block, clearing abusing process. If they want to ban questions about grammar or about writing on encyclopedic topics from RfAs, then they should ask the community through an RfC. Good luck with that!
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah I agree that AN is a shameful disgrace. I saw what you wrote and could see how it could be misconstrued but at the same time if they bothered to read the context of the discussion around it, it was clearly a misunderstanding and overreaction. That is unfortunately what I have come to expect from admins these days though. Indefinite block, ask some peers to gratify their actions, and continue trolling the discussion just to prove their point. Not much AGF anymore in this site. But hey, the new features make it a lot more like facebook every day! Kumioko (talk) 23:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
- To be fair, I don't really think you can place all the blame on the admins. Much more culpable are the admin wannabes who hang around that place. Eric Corbett 23:35, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Side topic
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Suggestion for BK
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Did you ever look at my RfC/U. Worm That Turn and Demiurge1000 quoted you in their beginning. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:13, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
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Dictionary needs
At AN yesterday, WTT cited this diff as evidence that I was using "grooming" with connotations of sexual predation. In fact, the diff and his citation yesterday demonstrate a limited vocabulary. WTT should have reviewed "groom" and "preen" and understood their consonance, before and yesterday. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- KW, either you do not understand how the juxtaposition of "grooming" and "child" is problematic or you do understand and are chosing to quibble your way out of trouble. If the former, you should be removed from the encyclopedia due to intense naïvety and I believe you've exhausted many people's patience with the latter. There's really not much more for me to say. WormTT(talk) 11:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- In the diff I quote, following you, I compared you to a student-government politician gaining votes by making friends with unpopular kids. You know that "groom" is used for such activities, in contemporary literature, as I have posted on Wikipediocracy.
- I am utterly uninterested in your patience or opinions. You are the same man who carried out Demiurge1000's RfC/U against me, and anybody reading that dishonest piece of work or your current postings can see what you are made of.
- You too offered the "hand of friendship" after that RfC/U.... Perhaps Dennis Brown can consider what such offers are worth. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- In a nutshell, you have successfully snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. GS was baiting you at RFA. I spoke out in the interest of fairness and GS reflected on it and admitted his wording was very suboptimal. You doubted his sincerity and couldn't resist making a point of it all. You are a clever wordsmith, perhaps too clever for your own good at times. My issue isn't what you said, even a dense fellow like myself could read through the opacity with a little extra effort. The comment was crafted specifically to cause drama, to fool the mind's eye and get people to misinterpret it. It wasn't your first use of the device, and you could easily predict the reaction although you may have underestimated the aftermath. You took it too far this time, and while that might not have been the intent, it would be foolish to not recognize it now. The solution here is simple and obvious. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 12:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
A crucial turning point in that earlier history occurred when men and women of good will turned aside from the task of shoring up the Roman imperium and ceased to identify the continuation of civility and moral community with the maintenance of that imperium. When they set themselves to achieve instead—often not recognizing fully what they were doing—was the construction of new forms of community within which the moral life could be sustained so that both morality and civility might survive the coming ages of barbarism and darkness. If my account of our moral condition is correct, we ought also to conclude that for some time now we too have reached that turning point. What matters at this stage is the construction of local forms of community within which civility and the intellectual and moral life can be sustained through the new dark ages which are already upon us. And if the tradition of the virtues was able to survive the horrors of the last dark ages, we are not entirely without grounds for hope. This time however the barbarians are not waiting beyond the frontiers; they have already been governing us for quite some time.
- FFS, Dennis, WTT quotes me using "groom" above to describe a student-politician "befriending" uncool kids to get votes. I have a record of using groom precisely for such manipulative recruitment. The word has other meanings without manipulation, as e.g. Jon Snow being groomed for leadership in Game of Thrones.
- I didn't even use "groom" here. Others misattribute it to me, along with "young boys", sloppily or maliciously. I've given diffs and links on Wikipediocracy. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Kiefer, they will see and read what they wish or what they're conditioned to believe. That's how some conduct gets condoned or ignored here while other actions bring out the mob with its torches. You also have to remember that from a group psychology sort of standpoint closed societies need enemies. They need a vague external threat to rally the troops so that no one looks too closely at the rot that's going on inside. Why go out of your way to provide them with said enemy? OWN of policy prevents many from making real change, or putting it off as too complicated, so we're stuck with what we have. It pains me to say that, but so long as OWN of policy is condoned (and even encouraged by the various shadow bureaucracies) that's the reality. Intothatdarkness 13:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then I'm left with only two choices: 1) You crafted your words to intentionally make a point. or 2) It was a very foolish mistake. As most people consider you a skilled wordsmith, you surely understand why it is difficult to believe it was the 2nd option. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 14:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- No, sex doesn't need to have anything to do with it. But the innuendo is there and is strong, so is the allusion to canvassing. -- Ohc ¡digame!¿que pasa? 15:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Good advices
"I'd like it here if I could leave" Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:23, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Choice
I've gotten the impression you'd rather do the right thing rather than suck up to "powers that be." Sort of a the coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave man dies but once. While I can't be certain -- there's a temporal element to AN & ANI where the "pitchforks" tend to show up first, and then the more reasonable folks later -- if not this time, then the next time, or the time after that it's likely you'll get banned. You should be savvy enough to know what kind of phrasing is going to get you in hot water, and which won't. I'll be the first to admit WP is a messed up, political place but despite that it's produced the best encyclopedia ever -- it'd be a shame if your contributions to it were lost, but I don't think my minority sentiments and that of a few others can continue to turn the tide of the reactionary types who are just gonna react to anything provocative you post. If you were more of a newbie I'd suggest phrasing for an unblock request but I don't think you need that -- bottom line is I think you have a choice to make very soon now if you want to continue to participate on-wiki or be content limiting your efforts to 'cracy and the like. NE Ent 13:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I asked for others to remove the phrase that was objectionable, before, which shows my intention to focus on the issue at hand, without using precise language that is alas liable to be misinterpreted.
- It is unfortunate that many at AN call for me to apologize despite my having made my strike-the-comment request soon after somebody raised concerns. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:40, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
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Suggestion
KW, I've read what you've written above and I have a suggestion. If I understand you correctly, young men and boys are impressionable and easily led and that the misleading of this youthful set was what you were referring to. I'm willing to AGF and accept that statement and doubtless there are others who would do the same. But, clearly, the statement has been misinterpreted, and not without reason. Would it kill you to make a clear statement that both explains what you meant and also apologizes for the poor choice of words that have lead to giving people offense? I know we Americans can appear to be way too eager to be politically correct but one reason why we thrive in social settings is that we realize that giving unintended offense is not just well worth an apology but is also a good way to keep moving forward. And that's not going to happen if you think there is nothing to apologize for or that the people taking offense are merely out for your blood. Right or wrong, there is a way to survive on Wikipedia and a way to self-destruct, the choice (as NE Ent above also says) is yours. --regentspark (comment) 14:27, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've clarified my intention numerous times, and I asked that my comment be struck after I read a complaint. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I see that here but not on AN. What would be helpful would be a clear explanation that includes your strike out request along with an apology for giving offense that can be copied to AN. Otherwise, I suspect, this is going to end badly. Something along the lines of In the comment that is causing this controversy, I meant blah blah blah. I apologize for my poor choice of words that caused the statement to be misconstrued and, in fact, asked that it be struck (include diff) the moment I realized that had happened (I was blocked and couldn't strike it myself).--regentspark (comment) 14:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've said this many times.
- I have stated my concern with a long-term mostly low-intensity conflict in which high-intensity conflicts happen, often because Demiurge1000 has been manipulating inexperienced persons found among WP's editors. Because of WP demographics and because of the obvious, such naive editors tend to be young men, perhaps boys. When somebody complained about the sentence, I first clarified my intention and asked that somebody strike it for me, because I had been immediately blocked and could not remove it myself.
- I don't think this will make people happy. What they want is a ban of me from RfAs and a block of me, probably through the next WP ArbCom elections. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:52, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- You're probably right. But it is the right thing to do and that's always worth something. I've copied it over to AN. --regentspark (comment) 15:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I suppose that a link to Wrangham's Demonic Males would have not raised Youtube-copyright concerns, but might have been considered more inflamatory than the link to Julie and Harry. See, I'm trying to fit in. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Pmanderson said it the best: it's a social website, not an encyclopedia. The social dynamic here seems out of Milan Kundera; the picture of enraptured youth dancing in a circle. --regentspark (comment) 15:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've never read Kundera---almost up there with King Lear and Tolstoy as my most humiliating literary lacunae. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:12, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Pmanderson said it the best: it's a social website, not an encyclopedia. The social dynamic here seems out of Milan Kundera; the picture of enraptured youth dancing in a circle. --regentspark (comment) 15:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. I suppose that a link to Wrangham's Demonic Males would have not raised Youtube-copyright concerns, but might have been considered more inflamatory than the link to Julie and Harry. See, I'm trying to fit in. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:49, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- You're probably right. But it is the right thing to do and that's always worth something. I've copied it over to AN. --regentspark (comment) 15:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've said this many times.
- I see that here but not on AN. What would be helpful would be a clear explanation that includes your strike out request along with an apology for giving offense that can be copied to AN. Otherwise, I suspect, this is going to end badly. Something along the lines of In the comment that is causing this controversy, I meant blah blah blah. I apologize for my poor choice of words that caused the statement to be misconstrued and, in fact, asked that it be struck (include diff) the moment I realized that had happened (I was blocked and couldn't strike it myself).--regentspark (comment) 14:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Time to move on
Strange comments. How should an improperly blocked editor "move on"?
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K-Wolf, there comes a time when one needs to accept that one has made their case and move along. I personally think your concerns are overblown, which is not to say that scrutiny is altogether unnecessary. But that's not going to be your department moving forward, nor is Wikipedia the place. You've made your case. Move along. Radar screens are now being watched, trust in that. Any such radar watching is not gonna be your department, however, because if you try to make it your department you're going to get banned off for good. Let it go. You very nearly immolated yourself at AN by implying way too much backed by way not enough. I don't want to piss you off, but it felt sort of like the anonymous phone calls an early campaign of Richard Nixon is said to have made against his stamp-collecting opponent asking voters, "Did you know that Richard Nixon's opponent is a known philatelist?!?!" If not an actual accusation, it was an unseemly implication and a smear. A major, major mistake. At some point we shall see the dialectical transformation of quantity to quality and the sum of previous small dramas becomes sufficient for the executioner's axe. Read again the long list of hearty endorsements for an indefinite block at AN and tell me I'm wrong. I tell you this as a friend, as does Eric — you've GOT to disengage here and trust in others. Accept this reality, get unblocked, write a completely new article and take a true vacation from the drama circus. I appreciate your commitment to your beliefs. Trust others. Best regards, as always. —Tim /// ShoeHutch@gmail.com /// Carrite (talk) 16:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
Kiefer: I haven't looked for this at Wikipediocracy, so I know I'm missing some of the spelling out. But let me make a confession. I didn't understand what the heck you were on about with that statement at AN. Its opacity was ... too much for this admittedly tired and literalist PhD holder in the humanities. (I also find Henry James impenetrable.) Whatever the demographics of en.wikipedia - and I happen to believe the WMF know less about that than they collectively know about nuclear physics or Wolfram's Parzival - there are a lot of EFL editors around the place, as well as whatever my demographic may be .... and also a lot of Americans, who are known to be hair-trigger on certain subjects, both because American English is more formulaic and having fun with style and vocabulary far less common, and simply because it's a Whole Other Country. We are after all divided by a common language. Your expat status in a country where English is not the first language may have caused you to forget how easily things can be misunderstood even between dialects of written English. And you and Eric do tend to forget that intellectual conversation sometimes goes over people's heads - I have sat around faculty meetings but I still don't always get what you're on about, and this was, I'm afraid, an example of that. I wonder whether you've overestimated the ability of those at AN to figure out your meaning? Yngvadottir (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
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Way forward
KW...in my mind there is an easy way to move forward...simply state you're going to avoid the dramaboards and places like Rfa for at least six months and concentrate solely on article improvements and stick with that. One thing I have noticed here is those that simply state their opinions with calmness and coolness and avoid threaded arguments end up having the louder voices and more say as a result. The back and forth and stonewalling rarely succeeds in doing anything but getting blood pressures up. I hope you'll not just remove this or hat it off because even though we haven't always agreed, you should know that I value your general edits in article space and would like to see you return to that fold. What gets accomplished at the dramaboards anyway? I'm a strong supporter of freedom of speech but also freedom from speeches...and thats my speech to try and bluntly offer what I think is the best way forward.--MONGO 16:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
- Your suggestion is welcome after the improper block is removed.
- The improper block seems to have been confused with consensus at an AN/I discussion, with an RfC with voluntary restrictions, an ArbCom case, or an intervention by Jimbo Wales. Each has its place at times on WP, but at this place and at this time discussion should focus on the improper block.
- New York Brad also suggested that I volunteer to self-imposed limitations at RfA before he could see what he could do with the block. I would like to introduce NYB, after his performance on the bureaucrat's talk page and here, to the signatory of the ArbCom decision who was concerned with uneven enforcement of civility.
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:19, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
- You should know there isn't any justice in this place...I can also testify to that. Man, I've been misunderstood (maybe cause I sometimes parse my comments too strongly ((sound familiar?))) more often than not but I do know where you're coming from most of the time. I'm all for the good fight but sometimes its better to lose a battle than the whole war ya know. NYB isn't going to get it right all the time anymore than any of the rest of us, but he's more right than not to a degree that I rank him as one of the more sane persons on the website, certainly more so than I. You also get to the grit in the matter and your words are generally worth reading, even if they can be (like mine) somewhat eyebrow-raising.--MONGO 20:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know NYB for supporting RfAs of minors without offering anything like a review of their contributions and for writing a toothless guide for minors editing Wikipedia, which should be compared to the guidelines of organizations like the Boy Scouts. I know NYB for coddling The Rambling Man and coming here to kvetch about my comments at RfA, at a grossly improper time. Let him rescue one of the Rihanna projects GA articles and get it to DYK status, as a member of the community, before he comes here again to lecture me on being more tolerant of sports page cliches on an Encyclopedia's FAs or pointing out that the encyclopedia is being overrun. Perhaps his childhood never involved work, since he seemed to think that "studying or flipping burgers" was an insult or an improper expectation. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I speak as the fifth-highest contributor to Beyonce Knowles' Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It), and helped it through FAC, never mind DYK, despite never having heard the song or having any interest in it; can't really remember why now, probably felt sorry for it. I'm also the sixth-highest contributor to Manchester United F.C. So whatever NYB has or hasn't done let me simply say that you're really doing yourself no favours. Listen to the advice you're being given, please. Eric Corbett 21:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I did my time on a song by Christina Aguilera, and know whereof I speak when I complained about the standards of GAs on pop songs, which despite my efforts do not meet the standards of DYK. The end of the article now with GA status has not been improved since my clean up of the first 3/4s. There are plenty of problems with such projects' GA articles, a proposition not disproved by your fine work on an FA article or NYB's displeasure (elsewhere). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:40, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- No indeed. In truth I not infrequently find WP's pop culture coverage to be quite useful. When I'm watching a film, for instance, I'll sometimes flip to the WP page to try and understand what the Hell is going on, or if I'm feeling particularly impatient how the film ends. I was rather in the dark about how Dark Water ended until I read the WP article. Did she die or didn't she? Apparently she died. Sort of. Eric Corbett 22:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- Kiefer...I'm willing to fight to get you unblocked....but Dianna below has left the building. What's the next step? I definitely think it's admirable to stick to your principles and maybe diffs at the time of your comment would have helped...but unless you just agree to just let it go, you're stuck in limbo for the near term. Tell us what you you're willing to give here. Can you agree to just move forward and avoid the drama zones for awhile? A self imposed ban from some of these areas would have a positive impact.--MONGO 04:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- I did my time on a song by Christina Aguilera, and know whereof I speak when I complained about the standards of GAs on pop songs, which despite my efforts do not meet the standards of DYK. The end of the article now with GA status has not been improved since my clean up of the first 3/4s. There are plenty of problems with such projects' GA articles, a proposition not disproved by your fine work on an FA article or NYB's displeasure (elsewhere). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:40, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I speak as the fifth-highest contributor to Beyonce Knowles' Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It), and helped it through FAC, never mind DYK, despite never having heard the song or having any interest in it; can't really remember why now, probably felt sorry for it. I'm also the sixth-highest contributor to Manchester United F.C. So whatever NYB has or hasn't done let me simply say that you're really doing yourself no favours. Listen to the advice you're being given, please. Eric Corbett 21:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I know NYB for supporting RfAs of minors without offering anything like a review of their contributions and for writing a toothless guide for minors editing Wikipedia, which should be compared to the guidelines of organizations like the Boy Scouts. I know NYB for coddling The Rambling Man and coming here to kvetch about my comments at RfA, at a grossly improper time. Let him rescue one of the Rihanna projects GA articles and get it to DYK status, as a member of the community, before he comes here again to lecture me on being more tolerant of sports page cliches on an Encyclopedia's FAs or pointing out that the encyclopedia is being overrun. Perhaps his childhood never involved work, since he seemed to think that "studying or flipping burgers" was an insult or an improper expectation. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- You should know there isn't any justice in this place...I can also testify to that. Man, I've been misunderstood (maybe cause I sometimes parse my comments too strongly ((sound familiar?))) more often than not but I do know where you're coming from most of the time. I'm all for the good fight but sometimes its better to lose a battle than the whole war ya know. NYB isn't going to get it right all the time anymore than any of the rest of us, but he's more right than not to a degree that I rank him as one of the more sane persons on the website, certainly more so than I. You also get to the grit in the matter and your words are generally worth reading, even if they can be (like mine) somewhat eyebrow-raising.--MONGO 20:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Kiefer, Mongo has given you excellent advice above. The way you're going about it now, right or wrong, no one is going to unblock you (unless Horologium chooses to do so). Even admins who are favorably inclined toward you need a reason to unblock and you're not giving us any. Looking at the current trajectory of this affair, the prognosis, I'm sorry to be brutal about this, is extremely negative and you're likely to end up amongst the heap of departed and forgotten editors. You might want to think about that. Read Mongo's suggestion at the top of this section carefully and take a day off to think about it before posting anything. --regentspark (comment) 15:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
- After the improper block is lifted, we can discuss RfAs, etc. I am certainly not going to condescend to discuss other matters now. I would wish that people would stop repeating themselves. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Your participation at RfA
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Let me see if I can help with the current situation in some fashion. I'll put to the side for the moment the specific comment for which you were blocked and take your suggestion of looking at the broader situation that led up to your making the comment. I've just read again through Mattythewhite's RfA page and its talkpage. You of course had the right to oppose his candidacy, whether or not other voters agreed with your rationale. However, several of your comments explaining your opposition were, in my considered opinion, appalling. In the context of a comparison of numbers of pageviews of the candidate's articles and your articles, your observation that "more persons still suffer from HIV" was gratuitous and objectionable. Telling another editor that "your broken-record false witnessing jeopardizes your soul" damages the collaborative environment. While it was clearly suboptimal for someone to refer to your "having gotten your knickers in a twist," characterizing this cliche as "your fantasies about my underwear" did not help matters in the least. Telling an editor younger than yourself to "run along and play nice somewhere else" was obnoxious, as was the suggestion that younger members of a wikiproject should be "flipping burgers" instead of editing. (I do, however, agree with your explanation of the "Andy Capp" comment. It was a bit obnoxiously dismissive of editors who work on sports articles, but it was not a personal attack on anyone. On the other hand, I also have to agree that your rewrite of his prose plainly overlooked some conventions of British English and British football parlance.) I do not consider myself any form of "civility cop" (in my six years as an administrator, I have never blocked anyone for "personal attacks" and I have supported such blocks only in extreme circumstances). However, the RfA pages, of which Mattythewhite's is the most recent example, are a forum in which you have made many of your most intemperate comments that have led to bickering, drama, and blocks. As I expect you will sooner or later be unblocked, would you be willing to agree either to stay off the RfA pages for awhile, or at least to some reasonable limit on your comments on these pages? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
(with apologies to Kiefer) Brad, I had the opposite impression from reading that RfA. Kiefer gave a simple, one sentence, neutrally stated oppose !vote. The immediate reaction to that was the comment "pure snobbery" following which the discussion deteriorated to quite an extent. The question one should be asking is whether Kiefer was responsible for the mess or whether the comment in response to his !vote was responsible for the mess. In recent RfAs, and I'm sorry to say this, the comments made by people who don't like certain oppose !votes has been the principal problem. Reasoned reactions and comments are fine, but the pure snobbery comment looks like it was made with the intention to rile. If it was, it succeeded. --regentspark (comment) 15:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
(Responding to RegentsPark above) My issue here is not with Kiefer's original oppose !vote and its rationale. I happen to disagree fairly strongly with the rationale that an administrator candidate is less qualified because he or she edits mostly sports-related articles rather than music articles or mathemtatics articles or legal-history articles—but my personal opinion counts no more nor less than Kiefer's does; he gets one !vote and so do I. So far there was no user-conduct issue involved. And, I would not have personally have characterized the oppose rationale as "snobbery." But, I understand what was meant by the description: Kiefer was presumably saying that some Wikipedia articles are more valuable than others, and hence by extension that contributors to those articles are less valuable to the project than others. That can credibly be cast as a snobbish argument, for at least some connotations of "snobbish." So I don't see that response to Kiefer's oppose as a user-conduct issue, and it certainly didn't justify everything that came afterwards. From that point, things spiralled downwards fairly rapidly, with more than one person modeling poor behavior. I've cited above the comments that Kiefer.Wolfowitz made which I would prefer not to have seen. And I don't think that the references to HIV, or going out and playing, or damaged souls, or undergarment-related fantasies, were reasonably proportionate to any provocation that occurred. That being said, I welcome Kiefer's comment above that he's prepared to address the tenor of his RfA participation in due course. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Brad is well known as a (automatic?) supporter of child administrators. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
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Reply for NYB
- Ecrasez l'infame!
Links have accumulated at Wikipediocracy.
I still don't see an indefinite block for the on-Wiki advice on avoiding parental monitoring of IM/email. WP:CHILD forbids editors asking minors for personal information, such as IMs and email addresses. Advising a child how to avoid parental controls on computer use requires an immediate indefinite back with email access removed and talk page access removed.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:30, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Examine the contributions on Simple Wikipedia and follow the policy
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Evidence or retraction requested; KW's statement above contains the text "Demiurge1000 has been manipulating inexperienced persons found among WP's editors".
I'd been led to believe that making accusations about other editors without providing evidence, is unacceptable.
So, where's the evidence?
(And I don't just mean "you posted a notification on another editor's talk page and that editor happened to be under the age of 25", or "you gave a barnstar to someone after an argument". I mean actual evidence to categorically support what's being alleged.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
You all have been asking for it. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:31, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Forget it.
Forget about emailing me. My stupid parents just went through and deleted most of my contacts. Instead, I'll be at Playcrafter sometimes. See you. Loudclaw (talk) 21:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, don't worry, this sort of thing happens sometimes. I'm sure you realise they are just being careful of your safety.
- Technically speaking, someone not being in your contacts, doesn't stop you emailing them (if you know their address), or them emailing you. But it's better if you agree with your parents about who you should and shouldn't email.
- Another good thing is to discuss what you do online with your parents - when they're not busy - so that they know what's going on. Did you remember to ask if they would agree for you to create an account on that chess website?
- I don't think I will use Playcrafter much, the games aren't that great and the chat interface is pretty annoying.
- Now, back to Wikipedia things. How is WikiProject Warriors going? I see there are still a lot of articles to create. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Well.....Look on the talk page of WP:Warriors. Loudclaw (talk) 23:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC) (I left a little treat)
Well I did find a new member. That member can be found here, at User talk:Silverspirit. Loudclaw (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Hey, uh.... I can improve Metroid Prime 3: Corruption because I now own the video game. I'll also use GameFAQs. Loudclaw (talk) 20:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, Demiurge, I'm not allowed to IM anyone or I'll get into trouble. Sorry, Loudclaw (talk) 05:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
No access to email. Can't think of another way to tell you this, my IM might be screwed too. Loudclaw/Hey, let's collaborate!/Desk/WP:Warriors 21:06, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Yep. It's screwed. Loudclaw/Hey, let's collaborate!/Desk/WP:Warriors 21:08, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- Well, at least that means you're not risking getting into trouble. As regards websites that are not so restrictive to people in your age group, you should probably sign up for Runescape. As regards Simple Wikipedia, how is your work on the Warriors articles going? Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- So? Anyway, I haven't been very active on here lately. Have you made the account on Samwiki? Loudclaw/Hey, let's collaborate!/Desk/WP:Warriors 21:36, 21 March 2011 (UTC) If you have, ask for adminship and cratship, and unblock me and block SAM for a month. Take his powers and give me mine back. I never hurt his wiki.
...
- There could be an anti-Demiurge1000 right now! Loudclaw/Hey, let's collaborate!/Desk/WP:Warriors/My changes 05:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
- What does that mean? It doesn't sound very sensible.
- There could be an anti-Demiurge1000 right now! Loudclaw/Hey, let's collaborate!/Desk/WP:Warriors/My changes 05:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
- Anyway, I have created a SamsWiki account called Demiurge1000. Demiurge1000 (talk) 07:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Advice for young editors
If you are a younger editor and feel that another person on Wikipedia is behaving in a way that you feel threatens your personal safety, or worries you in any way whatsoever, please tell a responsible adult, and ask them to look at this page. Do not continue to communicate with the other person – ignore them completely. Never give out personal information to anyone, including people who say they are trying to help you.
Any administrator may block an editor for the conduct described in this policy. When an editor is blocked for such conduct, the blocking administrator is instructed to use neutral block summaries, and disable the editor's ability to edit their talk page as well as their access to the on-site user email interface. Blocking administrators should inform the blocked editor that any appeals or further discussion may be addressed only to the Arbitration Committee at arbcom-appeals-en lists.wikimedia.org, and then notify the Committee immediately.
TRM again badgering opposes
NYB's double standards about civility at RfA and his coddling of The Rambling Man after his last badgering episode have born fruit, e.g., the latest badgering at the current RfA.
It's time to bar The Rambling Man from threaded discussions at RfA. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:31, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Rationale for block
"Rationalization" would be more apt.
- "Wikipedia *has* had an issue with advocates of pedophilia"
notice the past tense "has had" rather than "has", and notice the "advocates of" rather than "practitioners of".
- "small cadre of his supporters"
such as administrators who have blocked me recently?
- "(unfounded) allusions to pedophilia pass without comment"
Horologium et alia are the ones misinterpreting my remarks as an "allusion to pedophilia", a word that I have never used on Wiki. Others have explained my intention and English. (Of course, discussions of violations of WP:CHILD should be made to the WMF Foundation....) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't block KW because of his edits on WP:RFA (which is not an arena in which I post unless I have a familiarity—positive or negative—with the candidates). My block was based solely on his comments on WP:AN, where the allusion to pedophilia was both striking and repugnant. Ignoring the rantings of a fair number of editors (here, and on other fora), Wikipedia *has* had an issue with advocates of pedophilia; we just blocked one of them earlier this year. (I am referring to Meco (talk · contribs), whose offenses have been detailed elsewhere, both on- and off-site.) Allowing a longtime editor to make allusions to similar behavior (through specific phraseology) is simply unacceptable. Despite the protestations of KW (and a small cadre of his supporters) that his statement was not at all about pedophilia, the fact remains that he the verbiage he employed was clearly intended to provoke some sort of negative response (as witnessed by the substantial number of editors who have weighed in at the discussion on WP:AN). I am not convinced by KW's assertions that his statement cannot be reasonably interpreted as an assertion of pedophilia, with references to both "young men and boys" and "boys and young men", the mentions of "recruit[ing]" and "inexperience", and the ending question "Is he behaving appropriately towards these boys and young men?" To claim that those constructions were simply happenstance boggles the mind, and (if they were in fact simply coincidence) KW needed to be stopped immediately, either for grievous personal attacks or because he was inadvertently defaming another editor. I find it fascinating that a bit of fairly unpleasant invective has been directed towards me by an administrator of a site which exists largely to complain about the less savory aspects of various WMF projects, with some snarky follow-up from an editor in good standing here. Aspersions are cast upon me, yet (unfounded) allusions to pedophilia pass without comment, for the most part. I am a bit surprised that the evolving consensus seems to be to uphold the indefinite block, but KW has dug in, rather than admit that his posts have been a major component of this whole ordeal. While I blocked for a specific post (with a reference to his block history), the community as a whole chose to look at the ongoing behavioral pattern. Horologium (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- though the comments merit a block, an indef seems to be pretty excessive given his experience. It's a shame to throw someone of this caliber to the street. The blocker definitely shouldn't be surprised about the criticism he or she gets since actions like the one above need to thought about given the repercussion and how it may affect your reputation 174.236.64.146 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- Horlogium, your language here is obnoxious, and I repeat that the only reference to pedophilia is in your mind and in the minds of others making that accusation. You seem not to have looked at much at the Wikipediocracy site, if you are so shocked to be criticized. Have you looked lately at the evidence rolling in? Below I link on-Wiki behavior of telling a teen how to evade his parents' ban on internet usage. What the fuck are you doing not enforcing a block, immediately, on Demiurge1000 for violating the prohibition on asking minors for personal information? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:57, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- Horologium,
- You are "surprised" at the response of editors at Wikipediocracy? You might look at AN if you want nicey nicey discussions of your policy-violating block.
- Make Lukeno94 happy and file an RfC if you want to block me for a pattern of behavior.
- You should resign your administrative office, because policy also boggles your mind. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 05:47, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have problems with criticism; I would not have blocked him (or, for that matter, taken any other admin actions) if I couldn't handle criticism. I've had a few blocks or page protections which have been less-then warmly received </understatment>. The only reason I brought it up is the attention my block (and the disclosures on my userpage) have received elsewhere. I have noted that I don't support an infinite block on KW, but I can't disagree with those who argue that he needs to have some sort of epiphany before he returns. There are plenty of reasons why we have fewer editors subjecting themselves to RFA, but paint-by-numbers automated opposes don't help matters, and KW's opposition due to age is reminiscent of another KW's automatic opposes (through self-nominations) and ultimately equally disruptive and corrosive. That was what touched off this particular dispute, but the specific attack (and it was an attack) was why I blocked him. His disagreements with other editors were personalized to an unacceptable degree, by his own doing. Horologium (talk) 01:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I did not oppose him because of age. He wrote badly at the RfA and is associated with a weak project; his FA article had a weak lede. He seems not to have contributed to traditional encyclopedic articles.
- It's was a little late for you to announce that you are blocking me because of your political agenda, which violates the RfA consensus that lack of adulthood may be freely mentioned by opposers (although in this case it seemed to have been irrelevant).
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 05:47, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- though the comments merit a block, an indef seems to be pretty excessive given his experience. It's a shame to throw someone of this caliber to the street. The blocker definitely shouldn't be surprised about the criticism he or she gets since actions like the one above need to thought about given the repercussion and how it may affect your reputation 174.236.64.146 (talk) 01:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't block KW because of his edits on WP:RFA (which is not an arena in which I post unless I have a familiarity—positive or negative—with the candidates). My block was based solely on his comments on WP:AN, where the allusion to pedophilia was both striking and repugnant. Ignoring the rantings of a fair number of editors (here, and on other fora), Wikipedia *has* had an issue with advocates of pedophilia; we just blocked one of them earlier this year. (I am referring to Meco (talk · contribs), whose offenses have been detailed elsewhere, both on- and off-site.) Allowing a longtime editor to make allusions to similar behavior (through specific phraseology) is simply unacceptable. Despite the protestations of KW (and a small cadre of his supporters) that his statement was not at all about pedophilia, the fact remains that he the verbiage he employed was clearly intended to provoke some sort of negative response (as witnessed by the substantial number of editors who have weighed in at the discussion on WP:AN). I am not convinced by KW's assertions that his statement cannot be reasonably interpreted as an assertion of pedophilia, with references to both "young men and boys" and "boys and young men", the mentions of "recruit[ing]" and "inexperience", and the ending question "Is he behaving appropriately towards these boys and young men?" To claim that those constructions were simply happenstance boggles the mind, and (if they were in fact simply coincidence) KW needed to be stopped immediately, either for grievous personal attacks or because he was inadvertently defaming another editor. I find it fascinating that a bit of fairly unpleasant invective has been directed towards me by an administrator of a site which exists largely to complain about the less savory aspects of various WMF projects, with some snarky follow-up from an editor in good standing here. Aspersions are cast upon me, yet (unfounded) allusions to pedophilia pass without comment, for the most part. I am a bit surprised that the evolving consensus seems to be to uphold the indefinite block, but KW has dug in, rather than admit that his posts have been a major component of this whole ordeal. While I blocked for a specific post (with a reference to his block history), the community as a whole chose to look at the ongoing behavioral pattern. Horologium (talk) 00:17, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Unblock request
Kiefer.Wolfowitz (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
Horologium's block for one comment violated the blocking policy, as discussed by IRWolfie at AN. The discussion here and at AN clarifies why large segments of the community question the misinterpretation by Horologium of my edit, which has been asked to be struck by me and which has been clarified by me many times. Thus, the block was improper.
In his most recent posting (above), Horologium clarified his political agenda. If he wants to change the rules of RfA, he should use a community RfC, not his administrative tools. He should discuss matters (possibly filing an RfC/U if he wishes) and not use his block tools, if he wishes to discuss other issues. It is at best confusing and raising the appearance of impropriety for Horologium especially (and for other administrators, from the civil NYB to the mob at AN) to mix other concerns with a discussion of this block.
Also, given the concerns about IRC canvassing noted at AN by User:Nick and the blocking administrator's few edits, the blocking administrator should declare how he learned of my edit and whether he was on IRC when he blocked me.
Argument in the alternative/Alternative pleading: Even if some block can pass the laugh test for some reasonable person, the indefinite length of the block has been harshly criticized at AN also. At very least, the block should be reduced to a definite time, perhaps time served.
Decline reason:
The discussion at AN showed no consensus at AN to lift the block or reduce its length. Assertions that the block is unfair will be inadequate to overturn this consensus. Assertions that the blocking admin had a political agenda will not be adequate to overturn this consensus. Whether the blocking admin first learned of your post at IRC or happened upon it by chance is irrelevant to the unblock. What has to happen for you to be unblocked is that an uninvolved admin, in consultation with the blocking admin, has to be convinced that the behaviour in question will not be repeated. The behaviour in question was "accusing another of misconduct without evidence and in such a way that reasonable people may infer an accusation of sexual misconduct". The unblock request herein and your other posts on this page have not been adequate to demonstrate that the behaviour will not be repeated. Convenience link to discussion at AN: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive249#Interaction ban proposed. Dianna (talk) 13:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
- Dianna,
- Regarding
- "accusing another of misconduct without evidence":
- I was blocked within minutes of the posting, so there was no time for evidence. I specifically explained my concern with Demiurge1000's political manipulation of Gwickwire and Lukeno94, egging them on against his on-Wiki targets. I specifically disavowed any accusation of sexual misconduct, every time it such an improper imputation has been made to me by WP editors.
- I have quoted below Demiurge1000's on-Wiki explanation to a minor---whose email-contacts had been erased by parents---how to continue emailing persons against his parents' wishes. Sam's wiki (linked at Wikipediocracy) shows continued emailing and IMing despite the parental wishes, and an IM sent after the child stopped accepting them.
- Thus, there is evidence to support the accusation of improper conduct towards young people, and sufficient evidence (the treatment of gwickwire and lukeno94 mentioned) was already given at AN. This accusation is false.
- "reasonable people may infer an accusation of sexual misconduct". There is no consensus for this interpretation, and the IRWolfie has dissected its intellectual carcase.
- "accusing another of misconduct without evidence":
- If you have something to say, write it and don't engage in vague accusations or bs: "your other posts on this page have not been adequate to demonstrate that the behavior will not be repeated". WTF does that mean?
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- A very large number of editors participated in the AN discussion and a well-trusted bureaucrat closed with the conclusion that there was no consensus to unblock until it becomes obvious that you understand the reason for the block and will not repeat the behaviour that led to the block. The material in the unblock request and on this talk page is insufficient to overturn that consensus and therefore I declined your unblock request. -- Dianna (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- The accusation against Demiurge should never have been posted without evidence. Expecting that you would be able to post such an accusation and later collect and present evidence to back it up is not realistic. As with editing articles, extraordinary claims against other editors require rock solid evidence at the time of posting, not at some indeterminate time in the future. The fact that many editors construed your post to have a sexual meaning only made matters worse, but that was only one factor in the block. What you need to do to get unblocked is assure the community that you will not post accusations against other editors without presenting evidence. Once an uninvolved admin, in consultation with the blocking admin, is satisfied that the behaviour will not be repeated, an unblock will follow. -- Dianna (talk) 19:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- What accusation against Demiurge1000? I presented evidence, namely his egging on Lukeno94 and Gwickwire.
- Why was that evidence inadequate? Is it too much to assume that WP administrators and AN-enthusiasts and in particular you can search "Demiurge1000, Kiefer.Wolfowitz, Gwickwire OR Lukeno94"?
- I did not present evidence to support the accusation you and others accuse me of making, because I did not make it, and indeed when somebody insisted on making it (despite my patient explanation) I asked that the misinterpreted wording be struck (and replaced with an imprecise phrase, apparently without connotations).
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- Repeated use of the phrasing that these are young boys and men being recruited implies that Demiurge is intentionally targeting vulnerable members of the community. The community interpreted your post to have a sexual connotation, and many people assumed this was intentional, so sorry. Since you are a highly skilled user of the English language they assume you meant to say exactly what the post implied. It was not until you were already blocked that you offered to amend the post to remove the sexual connotation. But leave that aside for a moment, and just look at the diff itself. It makes an accusation, without presenting any evidence: Diff of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard and your next post, eleven minutes later, repeats the accusation without presenting any evidence: Diff of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Whether the post has a sexual connotation or not, you are accusing Demiurge - without presenting any evidence - of manipulating and using other people. This type of accusation should never be presented without evidence. If there's no on-wiki evidence that can be presented, the accusation should not have been dropped into a thread on a highly travelled admin notice board. -- Dianna (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I am sorry for not requesting that you read the AN thread. In particular, please read Fram and other's posts of plenty of diffs, since you seem not to have already. Fram linked (I believe) Demiurge1000's noting (on Lukeno94's talk page) of his RfC/U against me (with Worm That Turned as point man)? Gwickwire is a minor, but his behavior was discussed so many times on AN/I that I took it for granted that Demiurge1000's egging him on would be known. (Have you still not searched for Gwickwire and Demiurge1000?)
- You claim that accusations require evidence. I'm still waiting for you or New York Brad to block The Rambling Man for his unretracted hysterics at the RfA and his talk page. Is TRM also a "respected bureaucrat"?
- Get busy blocking the liars and false accusers at ANI, if you want my respect. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- I am sorry for assuming that you were ignorant of Demiurge1000 and Gwickwire. You just gave an "attack kitten" to Gwickwire's new account, amid many other mutual admirations with Demiurge1000. Don't you think that you are the last administrator (besides TRM) who should review the unblock request? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:36, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- Since you feel I am not qualified to help you, I will not be responding here any further. Good luck. -- Dianna (talk) 20:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- Repeated use of the phrasing that these are young boys and men being recruited implies that Demiurge is intentionally targeting vulnerable members of the community. The community interpreted your post to have a sexual connotation, and many people assumed this was intentional, so sorry. Since you are a highly skilled user of the English language they assume you meant to say exactly what the post implied. It was not until you were already blocked that you offered to amend the post to remove the sexual connotation. But leave that aside for a moment, and just look at the diff itself. It makes an accusation, without presenting any evidence: Diff of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard and your next post, eleven minutes later, repeats the accusation without presenting any evidence: Diff of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard. Whether the post has a sexual connotation or not, you are accusing Demiurge - without presenting any evidence - of manipulating and using other people. This type of accusation should never be presented without evidence. If there's no on-wiki evidence that can be presented, the accusation should not have been dropped into a thread on a highly travelled admin notice board. -- Dianna (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Kiefer.Wolfowitz (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
See above. Dianna has years of WP friendship with Demiurge1000 and has just given an "attack kitten" to the new account of the Gwickwire, and she failed to identify her conflict of interest. An independent administrator should review the petition, without being prejudiced by the partisan administrator's improper review.
Decline reason:
I reach essentially the same conclusion as is expressed here: namely, that the Bureaucrat closing the discussion wrote that Administrators should only change the length of your block if they become convinced that the sorts of actions which led to the block will not recur. To my mind, the contents of your User Talk Page do not demonstrate this.It Is Me Here t / c 14:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- "Sorts of actions"?
I was blocked for one sentence, whose objectionable intention I disavowed and asked that it be struck. What on this page makes you think that I would repeat that sentence (or a similar sentence)? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Please read my statement again, carefully. I did not block you because of your contributions at RFA. I disagree with them, but that is beside the point entirely. I blocked you because of your allusions to pedophilia in your post on AN. The only connection RFA has with this block is that the AN discussion resulted from the dispute there. While there was a fair amount of suboptimal contributions from several editors at that RFA, nothing said there was block-worthy. It was the attack on AN, and the specific verbiage employed, that earned the block. As I (and others) have said, you chose wording that was deliberately inflammatory, rather than neutral wording which would have conveyed the same idea, and even your revision of the first sentence wouldn't fix the problem with the rest of the post. Horologium (talk) 15:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- Then block yourself for your
deliberatelyinflammatory falsehoods---e.g., "paint by numbers", etc., which one would like to think were written thoughtlessly rather than deliberately. You can repeatedly assert that you have psychic abilities to understand my intentions, but others have already laughed at such assertions. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:48, 6 June 2013 (UTC) - The only reference to paedophilia is in your mind.
- You still have not taken responsibility for your falsehoods and aspersions, which were made with non-neutral language. Where did you strike out anything?
- Read what I wrote, which was not "crafted". It was a quick comment posted five minutes after my previous edit. You edit so little and took so long to reply that we are supposed to forgive your "verbiage", "deliberately inflammatory", "allusions to pedophilia", "attack on AN".
- It's time that you take responsibility for your own actions, and strike your obnoxious comments and replace them with neutral language. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know if User:Horologium uses IRC and if so, what his nicks, cloak or host details are, so I don't know if he was on IRC when you were initially blocked. I didn't see any discussion prior to the block or immediately afterwards, but I idle for long periods so could have missed any discussion - don't take my word as definitive proof either way. I was asked later on, however, when the block period discussion was going on, to endorse the indefinite block by a couple of users - they don't use cloaks though so I can't verify who exactly they are, sorry. I don't log any of the channels I use on IRC so have no evidence to make direct accusations against any users or to take any action where necessary, I'm afraid. Nick (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- The last time I was on IRC (for Wikipedia, or any other purpose) was on April 25, 2008, where I fired up my IRC client to see which channel was loaded (I am sure of the date because a question was asked at my RFA about IRC). I had only been on the general WP channel four or five times previous to that. I have not been on IRC since I became an administrator, and I have never been on the admin channel. Much of this is trying to prove a negative, but (IIRC) you have to make a request for access for the admin channel. I never made such a request, and I'm sure that somebody, somewhere, has a list of people who have made that request. I do not know if anyone keeps logs of IRC chats, or if they contain IP addresses, but my IP address (which is static) is 71.199.83.38. (Those five edits from last fall are from my husband, who does not always log in to his account on the infrequent occasions that he edits, so I know that my IP address has not reset since then.) Horologium (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the supererogatory explanation. From your username and your "expelliarmus" spell, I'd pictured you as Hermione Granger, but not married to that Weasley. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- FWIW, you had my sex correct earlier. I am a "he", not a "she". The picture of my on my userpage should make that clear. (wry grin) Horologium (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- I corrected the error, which does remind us of the risk of maximum a posterior probability estimation. And just yesterday we were singing "Jag har en pappa och en pappa. Det ar bra att har en pappa och en pappa ..." at daycare.... Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for the supererogatory explanation. From your username and your "expelliarmus" spell, I'd pictured you as Hermione Granger, but not married to that Weasley. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- The last time I was on IRC (for Wikipedia, or any other purpose) was on April 25, 2008, where I fired up my IRC client to see which channel was loaded (I am sure of the date because a question was asked at my RFA about IRC). I had only been on the general WP channel four or five times previous to that. I have not been on IRC since I became an administrator, and I have never been on the admin channel. Much of this is trying to prove a negative, but (IIRC) you have to make a request for access for the admin channel. I never made such a request, and I'm sure that somebody, somewhere, has a list of people who have made that request. I do not know if anyone keeps logs of IRC chats, or if they contain IP addresses, but my IP address (which is static) is 71.199.83.38. (Those five edits from last fall are from my husband, who does not always log in to his account on the infrequent occasions that he edits, so I know that my IP address has not reset since then.) Horologium (talk) 16:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
The indefinite nature of the block has been criticized by some, yes, but while the blocking admin intended that it be indefinite only until the community decided on a proper length of time, there is also significant support for it to remain indefinite. That aspect may be somewhat unfair to you unless one were to successfully propose a proper community ban, but it certainly exposes a rather high level of disatisfaction with both the attack that preciptated the block and your followup responses, which can best be described as unrepentant, coupled with your history of being rather abrasive. It lends itself to questions: If the block were lifted, what is the likelihood of you making similar comments that cast such aspersions (whether intended or thoughtlessly, it doesn't matter) in the future? How do you plan to address the concerns of those who do believe that indefinite is the proper time frame for this block? Resolute 16:48, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I am concerned less with your faction than with addressing the concerns of editors who believe that they can read my mind, and I have addressed those concerns sufficiently. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:18, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- Considering the objections are a mixture of past grudges (some have acknowledged that), misinterpretation of policy, twisting what KW has said (by assuming bad faith), pile on votes, and illogical reasoning (claims of ageism and gender discrimination against males for example was a silly reason), etc I do not think KW can do anything to convince those who say indef. If you have a grudge you have a grudge. If someone twisted his words, KW can only apologise that it could be twisted. If the reasons were illogical, nothing can be said, IRWolfie- (talk) 17:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for supplying the missing middle arguments, in a shorter proof than I could have managed---my style running more to Principia Mathematica's two-volume proof that 1+1=2 --- along with explicatives and knife-thrusts from Deadwood---before I edit them out! ;) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would also note the ANI didn't have a consensus that there should be a block either. There were a lot of editors who felt the block was a misunderstanding and should be shortenened or dropped. So it seems in light of a bad decision the only thing that can be done is to let the bad decision stand? That's Wikipedia for you. This is just prime evidence that admins aren't required to make good decisions nor are the held responsible for bad ones. Kumioko (talk) 20:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- This may have been the first recorded agreement between myself and Bishonen---I almost did not dare to type the name lest I be accused of suggesting an inappropriate relationship with another Chinese young male sex worker. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:47, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- I would also note the ANI didn't have a consensus that there should be a block either. There were a lot of editors who felt the block was a misunderstanding and should be shortenened or dropped. So it seems in light of a bad decision the only thing that can be done is to let the bad decision stand? That's Wikipedia for you. This is just prime evidence that admins aren't required to make good decisions nor are the held responsible for bad ones. Kumioko (talk) 20:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for supplying the missing middle arguments, in a shorter proof than I could have managed---my style running more to Principia Mathematica's two-volume proof that 1+1=2 --- along with explicatives and knife-thrusts from Deadwood---before I edit them out! ;) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:04, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
A few specifics
This wall of text is giving me a headache and making my eyes go fuzzy, so just one question: is there clear and incontrovertible evidence that Demiurge1000 asked a minor for their personal details? Eric Corbett 23:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- Here, I can only discuss what is on-Wiki, as I understand it, and I have cited a troubling conversation on Simple Wikipedia, the meaning of which should be clear on a second reading. (I missed the leitmotiv on the first, as you can see at Wikipediocracy.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:29, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
- For obvious reasons, the quotes and diffs have been moved to a secure undisclosed location. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:34, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Horologium and WP:NPA
Quotation from talk page of Horologium
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Notice the diffless wall of accusations from Horologium, the blocking administrator. The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Perhaps you should unblock him. He has explained that there was no sexual intention behind his statement and indicated his willingness to strike it out. AGF perhaps? The way this discussion has gone, you're about the only one who can unblock him drama free so that might just be the fair thing to do. --regentspark (comment) 03:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Let me address the points raised, most of them irrelevant to the question at hand, his block.
- "the massive refactoring and reorganization KW performed on his page, which is apparently something he has done on other occasions. I will not be watching the page any more, because his editing has utterly obliterated the sequential nature of the edits in favor of his preferred presentation of the situation."
- Any refactoring has followed talk-page guidelines; in particular, time and date stamps remain. Conversations offering advice like "stop opposing weak candidates at RfA and you will be unblocked" have been moved together, so that future conversations can benefit from the past.
- "vociferous denunciation of the admin who declined his unblock request leads me to believe that he will not accept as unbiased any admin who does not agree to unblock him."
- Bullshit. Administrator Dianna had an undeclared conflict of interest from her years of friendship with Demiurge1000 and kitten-giving to Gwickwire's new account. The second administrator has no such COI (known to me), and has received no criticism from me.
- "you are just about the only administrator who both opposed my block and supported an unblock, that makes you possibly the only admin who he will consider to be sufficiently unbiased."
- It starts off vague and misleading and leads to nasty speculation, a poor example for any editor and especially inappropriate for a blocking administrator.
- "I also encountered a rather interesting exchange"
- This passive aggression is inappropriate for an adult or an administrator.
- "KW was more than willing to ascribe sexist and homophobic motives to someone else based on the wording of their posts, but on far shakier grounds than those for which I blocked him. Instead of confining the discussion to the talk page on which the edits occurred and the user talk pages of the two of them, he fired off a missive on the talk page for a (presumably) sympathetic wikiproject. The resounding silence from that project was rather interesting, to say the least. It was a rather obvious attempt at canvassing which failed to achieve the desired result."
- An accusation without a diff violates WP:NPA. I asked for diffs days ago. Would an administrator remind Horologium of his responsibilities?
- "I don't think that the proposal to ban him from RFA is going to eliminate his anti-collaborative nature" (emboldening added)
- "anti'collaborative nature" is a textbook personal-attack, and is particularly inappropriate for an administrator with few (especially collaborative) contributions to WP.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:48, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Kiefer. I just want to clarify, since you have repeated your assumption that I am friends with Demiurge1000. Overlap seen on this page is as a result of my activities as a coordinator of the Guild of Copy editors such as the delivery of barnstars and newsletters for that organisation. Other overlap in our edits includes random inclusion in the same talk page archive, such as User talk:Ezekiel53746/Archive 1 and User talk:Kolakowski and Talk:Main Page/Archive 167. I did work on the Rabbi Pinto case with Demiurge, who you perceive to be your enemy, and did watch-list Charmlet's talk and added the kitten, but because you perceive these people to be your enemies does not put me into a position of being involved in your case. As far as I can recall, I have never interacted with you, which is what the concept of WP:Involved is all about. -- Dianna (talk) 23:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- Diannaa / Diannaa:
- I don't care that you watch-listed Charmlet / Gwickwire. You should avoid appearances of COI when acting as an administrator.
- Presumably WP:Involved does not specify that congenitally joined twins have the appearance of a COI and therefore and an administrator should avoid reviewing his twin's block---simply because a reasonable adult understands the importance of avoiding COIs.
- You should avoid imputing intentions to me or putting words in my mouth, particularly twice imputing the malicious "enemies".
- Please correct your signature, so that it matches your user name.
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:51, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Space reserved for apologies for WP:NPA violations by Horologium
Horologium, the administrator who blocked me for allegedly making an allegation without evidence, makes many allegations without evidence, violating WP:NPA. (Dropping the passive aggression would help, also.) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:34, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:CHILD
Kiefer, just for information: you've mentioned WP:CHILD a few times on this page and claim to have quoted it, but you're linking to the wrong page. The page you've been quoting is WP:CHILDPROTECT, a different page. Another paragraph of it states (its bolding, italics and linking, not mine):
Reports of editors engaging in such conduct should be made to the Arbitration Committee for further action, and should not be the subject of community discussion, requests for comment or consensus. If you are concerned about the behavior of another editor, please contact Wikipedia's Arbitration Committee at arbcom-l lists.wikimedia.org, but please read the Communications and privacy section of the Arbitration Committee page before doing so.
--Stfg (talk) 11:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for the clarification. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Unblocked
Kiefer, you are hereby unblocked. You are well aware that not all members of the community will agree with this decision, and it can only be hoped that the following editing restrictions, based on discussions held on-wiki prompted by email contact which I sought with you, will ease their mind somewhat.
- You should not interact with Demiurge. Given the nature of the diff that led to the block in the first place, I cannot really impose a two-way interaction ban, but I have no doubt that Demiurge will not seek you out or bait you, and I hope that they will refrain from commenting on you elsewhere. "No interaction" includes you won't mention them or their conduct anywhere on-wiki, including by allusion (added for us literary types). You won't visit their talk page or follow them around. Obviously I cannot (nor do I wish to) block you from the dramah boards etc; you must let common sense (mine, and I hope yours) prevail--stay out of discussions that they're involved in. This does not mean that Demiurge can, for instance, block you from continuing a discussion you've already engaged in by merely placing a comment, but I trust this won't happen. I have seen your efforts (some after your block, but still) to undo the damage caused by the remark, and I believe that you are sincere and won't repeat this; Demiurge appears to be of the same mind. At any rate, practically speaking it is not likely to be tolerated.
- You must stay away from threaded discussions in RfAs. A number of editors/administrators have made this clear, and I will log it as a formal restriction. For now, I will interpret this fairly narrowly: if there is a thread (two or more comments), you cannot add to it. You cannot, for instance, respond to a comment on your comment. At the same time, editors are not allowed to bait you--a term that is difficult to define, but a practice that is not hard to discern. While I cannot "ban" the community from responding to your comments, I think it is no more than fair that admins look carefully at any such responses to see if they are above board, and violations thereof should be reverted and followed by a warning (and perhaps more, if that behavior continues). Baiting is never OK, of course, and it goes for you as well as for others: no baiting, no leading questions, etc.
- (Now comes the fatherly advice--which I can give, since I have more children than you, I think.) You have said you will focus on article editing: that is a good idea since, and I think there was a consensus for this on AN, it is outside of mainspace that trouble starts (and I am not saying that this is always your fault).
But let me add something based on my own observations, of this case and of many others (too many to mention; somehow they always end up on Jimbo's talk page). Bringing up the past, and drawing inferences from editing behaviors of others about their motivations, is rarely a good thing. I know (believe me, I know) it is exceedingly difficult to treat other editors fairly after they have been unfair to you. This ("fairness") is a matter of perception, everyone can admit to that, and I'm speaking in the general, not about this case, this block, this blocking administrator, etc. One must not say, "admin x is abusive" and say that to mean "always abusive", in the same way that one must not say, "editor y is a disruptive asshole" as if that is all they are (there aren't that many trolls here, I trust). This is not to say that every hurt and every wrong must be forgotten completely; it is, however, to say that one should be sparing with digging up the past. I wish I could say this to a lot of people, including myself. Such generalizing leads to dramah, and dramah leads to blocks, to anger, to misunderstanding.
Human nature is a difficult thing. If you run into trouble, let someone know--an admin you really trust, for instance, if there is one. You may find that they are sceptic; if so, there may not be much you can do but to find another one. But we're not all bad--bad as me, Tom Waits might say.
I've said all I can. Maybe one more thing. This may be controversial, but it wouldn't be the first controversial thing we have to live with here. I wish Newyorkbrad could translate this into proper Bradspeech, but lawyers are in the cocktail bar Friday nights. I wish you well. You are a fine editor, I think most people agree on that, and I trust that you will regain the community's trust, even if not every single member's. Drmies (talk) 02:36, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- RfA restriction logged. I would like to thank Horologium, Demiurge1000, and RegentsPark for their input and advice. Drmies (talk) 02:44, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Endorse as per Drmies. Horologium (talk) 04:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Questions for H
Horologium made the following statements on his talk page:
- "KW was more than willing to ascribe sexist and homophobic motives to someone else based on the wording of their posts, but on far shakier grounds than those for which I blocked him. Instead of confining the discussion to the talk page on which the edits occurred and the user talk pages of the two of them, he fired off a missive on the talk page for a (presumably) sympathetic wikiproject. The resounding silence from that project was rather interesting, to say the least. It was a rather obvious attempt at canvassing which failed to achieve the desired result."
- An accusation without a diff violates WP:NPA. I asked for diffs days ago. Would an administrator remind Horologium of his responsibilities?
- "I don't think that the proposal to ban him from RFA is going to eliminate his anti-collaborative nature" (emboldening added)
- "anti-collaborative nature" is a textbook personal-attack, and is particularly inappropriate for an administrator with few (especially collaborative) contributions to WP.
Please rectify these violations of WP:NPA. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:42, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Just drop it Keifer...he supported your unblocking so just let it go.--MONGO 12:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- The allegation needs to be retracted or supported, so I can at least understand what he's alleging. (I can find a diff, if he names the project and the time.)
- When asked, expertise and moral leadership (e.g. Kaldari twice) appeared (after I asked for help) regarding phrases like "have the balls", "courting the Wikipedia fraternity", etc.; the "courting the WP fraternity"-fellow apologized (months later) for the appearance of sexism. I have asked for LGBT experts to review C. A. Patrides and Tom Kahn, and I have been asked for help with Stonewall Riots (where I tried to lend a hand).
- Why is he insinuating that I have was manipulating a feminism/LGBT (?) project for my political ends? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:09, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Just drop it Keifer...he supported your unblocking so just let it go.--MONGO 12:58, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
RfA restriction
Drmies, the block was for an AN comment. You do not have the authority to impose a restriction on my participation on RfAs. Please start a community discussion at AN or an RfC is you wish to suggest such an imposition, but kindly remove it from the restriction log.
I remind you that no restriction on RfA participation was mentioned by 28bytes in his close of the AN discussion,
28bytes's closure of AN discussion, which ignored RfAs |
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"This thread has been running for more than three days, and I don't think it can be argued that the community hasn't had a chance to weigh in here. (As Bishonen notes below, the number of participants here is quite extraordinary.) Setting aside GiantSnowman for a moment, I personally think Fram's suggestion that Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Demiurge1000 disengage is an extremely wise one, and in fact I told KW as much almost exactly a year ago on my talk page. However, the proposed interaction ban seems to have been rendered moot by subsequent events, namely KW's unfortunately worded comment about inappropriate behavior towards younger editors. While KW has, to his credit, clarified that he meant nothing sexual about the comment, accusing other editors of inappropriate contact with younger editors – sexual or not – is not something do be done lightly, and certainly not something to be done on a public noticeboard without evidence in the middle of a heated discussion. If KW is genuinely concerned that there is inappropriate recruiting (whether political or otherwise) of younger editors, I suggest he instead contact either ArbCom or the WMF with evidence backing up his concerns and they will act accordingly. Now, regarding the block. Many people have weighed in, but I simply do not see a consensus (1) to unblock KW, (2) to adjust the block to a specific period of time, or (3) to keep KW blocked forever (i.e. a defacto ban). What that means is that Horologium's indefinite block stands, until such time either Horologium or another uninvolved admin (after consulting with Horologium per our blocking policy) are convinced that the behavior (i.e. accusing another of misconduct without evidence and in such a way that reasonable people may infer an accusation of sexual misconduct) will not be repeated. That may happen tomorrow, it may happen two months from now, or it may not happen at all. I hope it happens quickly and KW is able to return to productive editing, but if it does, I strongly recommend he stay away from, and avoid commenting on the activities of, Demiurge1000. I offer the same recommendation to Demiurge1000 regarding comments about KW. I suspect both will enjoy contributing to the encyclopedia much more if they do so." |
It is particularly improper to log your restriction as a "community restriction" since 28byte's (multiply endorsed) close ignored RfAs.
You and other administrators should have a word with The Rambling Man and New York Brad,
- reminding The Rambling Man that he is an administrator / bureaucrat who is expected to not only comply with but exemplify NPA and civility and also
- reminding New York Brad that he signed a statement of concern about "uneven enforcement of civility" and in this case coddled TRM while kvetching here. (Perhaps NYB should clarify whether NYB and ArbCom actually endorsed "uneven enforcment of civility" (in anodyne and ambiguous prose)?)
I would suggest working on administrators' and bureaucrats' failures to enforce civility, particularly the failures to enforce civility evenly, at RfA. A joint restriction on TRM and myself would also be premature, but would not seem one-sided.
Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:34, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I've previously made some frank observations with The Rambling Man at WP:BN [36] and I think my opining was an adequate effort. Laboring it further seems counterproductive. As for the other points, I will let Drmies and NYB speak for themselves. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 11:15, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Your comments with TRM were better than I could have wished for, as were your comments on AN with GS. Were such even enforcement of civility (especially through a brief firm comment, without belaboring an error and without pile-on hysterics) the rule rather than exception, civility enforcement would not be a contentious issue. The contrast between NYB's treatment of TRM and myself is a concern. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- This comment by Newyorkbrad pertained to RfA. You referred to NYB's suggestion yourself, without a diff; as I noted, this was the closest I could find. This comment by Horologium also specifically mentioned discussions in RfA. that's all I have to say. My unblock and rationale were agreed upon by the blocking admin and an advisory admin, if I can refer to RegentsPark that way. All this leads me to believe that I do have that authority, and that it was deemed a good solution. I suppose you are welcome to raise the point at AN. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 14:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I commented on procedural issues, at the restriction log. Let me focus on substance:I am agreeable to a gentleman's agreement, for which I volunteered a suggestion. When I have I not kept my word?
- What such an RfA restriction does is paint a target on my back, as it has done for Malleus / Eric, with yahoos repeatedly mis-stating it (as they mis-state other policies) and baiting him at RfA. You and Horologium have stated that such baiting is improper, and Arbcom made similar noises at the Civility Enforcement, but consider the frequency of such baiting and the paucity of even civility-enforcement, already at the last RfA (or at AN or in Horlogium's comments). This is another substantive reason why the procedurally improper restriction is a problem.
- I repeat. I am open to discussion and have volunteered restrictions privately. What is improper is tying a publicly logged RfA-restriction to an unblock, when the block explicitly disavowed a concern about RfAs. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:41, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Kiefer, happy Father's Day. I thought I was making a good-faith attempt based on your own suggestions. I'm not going to summarize what I already summarized. Apparently I may not have done a good job estimating what I could and could not do, though the jury is still out somewhat since I only got one such message (from Dennis, so I assume it's correct). I thought that my semi-public conversation with Horologium, RegentsPark, and Demiurge1000 provided community consensus enough. (I'm saying this not so much to you, since you don't seem to care much for my opinion or assessment, as for the rest of the viewing audience.) What I suggest is that you go to AN and tell them I was wrong and that you'll voluntarily restrict yourself etc. and they need to undo my log of the editing restriction and so on.
And now I'm going to go do something else. Getting consensus to unblock you took considerable time and effort, and to get nothing but a "fuck you very much" and "you abused your authoritay" out of it makes me want to never do this again. Again, I thought what I was proposing was in accordance with your own wishes, and I think it was proportionate since you got blocked indefinitely. There is no need to email me anymore: you win, admin loses. Good luck. Drmies (talk) 14:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I got another option for you, if you don't wish to go to AN. Dennis Brown, if you don't mind, if your battery is charged to capacity at the Hoover Dam, please do whatever you see fit to do, including undoing the RfA ban and the log entry: at this point, I really don't care. You know a lot of these policy things better than me, and if you want to see on what private commentary I made my decision, I'll be glad to share that with you as well--privately of course, since that is how this all started anyway. I note also that other aspects of my unblock explanation were little more than farts in the wind: the first thing that Kiefer does is bring up a bunch of issues from the past and interactions with other admins and what not, precisely the kind of things I suggested he does not do. I have no idea why my unblock would have anything to do with The Rambling Man's edits or treatment or perceived treatment. But what do I know. If Kiefer decides I know my policy shit so poorly that I should lose my hat over it, he is welcome to do something about it at AN, for instance. While I would be interested in for instance Newyorkbrad's opinion, I am not so interested in this particular case anymore that I am going to follow it. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 15:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- Drmies,
- I don't know what you are referring to, with your discussion of TRM. Are you referring to something I wrote yesterday?
- I told Jim that I wished an explanation of Horologium's comment about my going to a feminism/LGBT project as canvassing, which I don't understand, implicitly saying I did not care about his other aspersions. I have not asked Horlogium to comment, by going to his talk page or emailing him, and I have left the matter for his response.
- I looked at the page on editing restrictions, which specifies arbcom or AN as the two sources for an editing restriction, the latter the only source for a community restriction. Perhaps there is another policy that should be linked on the editing restriction page? There is no reason to feel betrayed.
- Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Welcome back
I hope that you will concentrate on writing or improving some articles. If you are interested in level-headed work instead of drama, I am thinking of submitting George Meany for Good Article review. As you were the editor most interested, other than I, in this essential mid 20th century U.S. labor history topic, I hope that you will take a look at the talk page. I bid you peace. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- The main problem with the article are the sources, which when of good quality are too often writing about something else (and otherwise are often newspaper accounts). I would suggest finding all the biographies of Meany and then basing the article primarily on them.
- You should avoid cliches like "drama". Perhaps you would review (any) content contributions of the next RfA candidate? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 06:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I have searched and the only book length biography I have been able to find is George Meany And His Times: A Biography by Archie Robinson. I have ordered a used copy. Are you aware of any other biographies?
- I intended shorthand with my word selection and meant no offense, as my sole purpose was encouragement. Yes, I will continue take content creation into account when evaluating RfAs, and often abstain when I feel that a candidate is weak and the RfA doomed. I place a high importance on writing and expanding articles of decent quality and encyclopedic value, as I know that you do. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I went to a party to which each person was supposed to bring something that one would not one's mother to find in one's bedroom. I bought "The One Hour Orgasm" from the remainder table at Walden's (1.98). A red-diaper baby (now a Tea Party Republican) brought a biography of George Meany, more being listed at Cornell. You should also look at serious newspapers for profiles and obituaries; B. J. Widick, a Shachtmanite friend of Irving Howe used to cover labor for the The Akron Beacon Journal, and was a professor at Columbia U.; I think he appeared on Nightline and was identified as a contributor to the New York Times, but that may have been another fellow; examine his books, anyhow. Also look at the Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, The Christian Science Monitor, and perhaps The Detroit Free Press/Detroit News, Los Angeles Times, etc. The obituaries' content should be covered by the article, and they can also provide a check on WP:DueWeight and WP:NPOV. Many of your academic sources are New Leftist. I would not trust a source entitled "Labor's organizational man", and would verify every assertion used with independent sources. You might look at biographies of Walter Reuther (besides those by Trots) and Lane Kirkland for mention; Horowitz's remembrance of Tom Kahn has some recollections of Meany.Kiefer.Wolfowitz 07:40, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
- I intended shorthand with my word selection and meant no offense, as my sole purpose was encouragement. Yes, I will continue take content creation into account when evaluating RfAs, and often abstain when I feel that a candidate is weak and the RfA doomed. I place a high importance on writing and expanding articles of decent quality and encyclopedic value, as I know that you do. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
WP:AN
ArbCom and AN discussions have the authority to set community restrictions. Administrators cannot set community restrictions. | ||
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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 15:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Comment on getting bannedI saw you comment about getting banned at ANI and just wanted to let you know your not alone in that sentiment. I am in the same situation and frankly I think its only a matter of time before my outspoken criticism of admin abuses, the us and them mentality, problems with Arbcom, and various other contentions with how things go on here will get me banned. It don't think its a matter of if but when. Until that happens though I am going to continue to edit and contribute and speak out vocally about the problems in the hopes that eventually they will be fixed. I don't honestly hold out much hope because the admins hold all the power and generally will do whatever they have to do to keep it. Good luck though. Kumioko (talk) 18:31, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Legitimation CrisisBeavis, this article (Legitimation Crisis (book)) sucks. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:16, 16 June 2013 (UTC) Help?Hi KW, I notice that you edited here for 2.5 years, approximately, without any blocks, then in November 2011 you started getting a lot of action on your block log. Are you upset about something in particular? Would it be possible for us to resolve the underlying injustice that's leading you to be outspoken (perhaps so much so that you're getting blocked)? Please give me the nutshell synopsis if you'd like any help. Jehochman Talk 00:53, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I closed the ANI threadI wanted to let you know I closed the ANI thread. It just isn't going to get the support to pass. I also didn't want you to get blocked again, some of the folks are clearly looking for a reason. Believe me I know all too well how hard it is to let things go but some of your comments aren't helping your cause. I just wanted to let you know I didn't do it to squelch your voice. I did it more for your benefit than anything before it devolves. I half expect someone to revert it just because I did it but I wanted to let you know my reasoning anyway. Good luck and I think if you try again in a few months you'll have amuch better chance of removing the ban. Kumioko (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I have a suggestion. Step away from your browser window, put Larks Tongues in Aspic on side two, track three and crank it up to full volume. You'll annoy the neighbours, but you'll feel a hell of a lot better. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:59, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
I rather like the guitar tuning articlesThat is when I met you and started to watch your talk page. You seemed level headed then and seem it now. I wonder if you would appreciate a thought from me since I refuse to get involved in wikipolitics and refuse to be an admin Wikipedia is better when editors create articles. All else is fluff and flummery. That was the thought. I neither support your block nor oppose it. I honestly don't mind either way. What I like and support is your ability to create decent articles. It woudl be a shame if you ended up unable to do that. Fiddle Faddle 22:50, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
User nameNot just the abbreviation, but the whole user name: "An aphrodisiac". :-) Axl ¤ [Talk] 11:07, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Good catch on the name Kiefer, one that does open up a host of interesting questions. But, better to leave it to time to figure out the answers methinks. Still, just thought I'd pop a note here because it reinforces my conviction that we need people like you on RfAs. --regentspark (comment) 14:24, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
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Blocked again
Back on the chain gang... |
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This (link works as of this moment): http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=48680#p48680 Not acceptable. Given its much the same as what you got blocked for previously its apparent that you aren't going to stop doing it in the short term thus I've blocked you for one year. For what its worth I know its hard to believe but the denizens of wikipedia IRC are mostly 20+ adults.Geni (talk) 09:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just to let you know I have opened an WP:ANI thread on not only this block, but the wheel-warring around the block settings. As always, you can participate by posting the text you want, plus {{helpme}} requesting the copy (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
{{helpme}}Please remind Geni that WTT and another posted concerns about WP:CHILDPROTECT at Sue Gardner's WMF talk page, and obviously WMF has a toothless child-protection policy, which shall be commented on by the community on- and off-Wiki. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Just in case you weren't aware, you have been unblocked following strong consensus at ANI that the block was unsupported by policy. EdChem (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank all of you for your suggestions and advice. Praise Bishonen, not usually thought of as the "Amen corner" for yours truly, for her efforts to uphold policy. :) I knew she had it in her, but it's a pleasure to thank her, BWilkins, etc.! Somedays, one can imagine growing tired of Wikipedia's internal politics. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
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Would you like a knighthood?
Dubbed |
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You can have one if you want. ★★RetroLord★★
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