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Template:Did you know nominations/Feel It (MJ Cole song)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 11:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Feel It (MJ Cole song)

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Moved to mainspace by Launchballer (talk). Self-nominated at 10:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Feel It (MJ Cole song); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Needs some way of verifying the source, either by digging up the original radio broadcast or (preferably) finding a static, high-quality source. Unverifiable source accepted on good faith. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 19:17, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I think usual DYK policy is to AGF such an offline source, though I have made it into a cite AV media instead. QPQ provided.--Launchballer 11:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I think you're right. Approved on that basis.
Slightly late now, but I notice that the word single is repeated: suggest deleting on second use for concision. Doesn't affect the overall picture, though. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 12:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
It's a fair enough cop at any point in my opinion; a promoter could very well say the same thing. I propose ALT1: ... that although Piri & Tommy had been releasing music for two years, their collaborative single "Feel It" with MJ Cole was their first to be recorded in a studio?--Launchballer 12:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
Is it me or is the hook also not that interesting unless you're a fan of the artist in question? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:20, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
I agree about this not being interesting. I would imagine lots of musicians record outside a studio, so "although X had been releasing music for N years, their Y was their first to be recorded in a studio?" is true for many values of X, N, and Y. Assuming it could be verified, the bit about previously recording in their bedrooms would be hookier. RoySmith (talk) 12:50, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
  • I've been thinking about this a bit more. The AGF logic used above was flawed. We AGF when we know there's a legitimate and identifiable source which just happens not to be available on-line, but a complete enough citation that somebody could reasonably find it. Books, periodicals, etc, have titles, publishers, publication dates, page numbers, catalog numbers, etc. Somebody could go to an appropriate library or archive and find the item in question from those. But that's not what we have here. We've got "Tinea. 5 April 2023. Kiss". Even assuming somebody could decypher that into "A program titled 'Tinea' which was broadcast on a radio station called 'Kiss' on 5 April 2023", that's insufficient to find it. Is there an archive of everything Kiss broadcast that day? We don't know. If there is, how would one locate it other than listening to 24 hours of streaming audio in the hopes of recognizing something? You provided a URL that you say was in a previous version of the citation, but that URL 404's. In short, there's no way an interested reader could find the original source material to verify it. RoySmith (talk) 13:02, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
I think I see what you're driving at. I can offer you a copy of the schedule from last Wednesday, which points you to this series, which is two hours long, and I think she occupied the third quarter; most radio programmes she's on like to trail her appearance, although I really regret not taking down the timestamp at the time. (Unless I'm going blind, the only time parameter in Template:Cite episode is for a timestamp within the programme.) As for the hook, I can either offer ALT2: ... that Feel It was the first song Piri & Tommy recorded outside of their bedrooms?, or you can wait until I've finished my Tommy Villiers draft and we can go with something that starts "that the Feel It guitarist Tommy Villiers". (Probably "is the great-great-great-grandson of the British Prime Minister John Russell", unless I either find something else or can't get back to Fulham Library to verify where exactly within Burke's it is.)--Launchballer 09:19, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
I was actually thinking of the following wording since I think it's hookier and puts more emphasis on the bedrooms thing
ALT2a ... that prior to the release of "Feel It", all of Piri & Tommy's songs were recorded in their bedrooms?
What do you think? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:00, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
ALT2b: ... that prior to their feature on MJ Cole's "Feel It", all of Piri & Tommy's songs were recorded in their bedrooms?--Launchballer 13:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
Sounds good. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
  • @UndercoverClassicist: Since this has been stuck for a while, could you take a look at ALT2b? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Not quite sure who's "got" this one any more. I like alt2b and think it's just as verifiable as the original: I was always happy to AGF on the radio source, so if that objection is now considered resolved, I'd support promoting this one. UndercoverClassicist T·C 18:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Pinging RoySmith for their input. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:40, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I'm still uncomfortable with this, for the reasons I outlined above. I did a bunch of searching and couldn't find anything to back this up. This is a currently performing popular music act. You would expect there would be all sorts of coverage on the interwebs. That I can't find anything leaves me uneasy. RoySmith (talk) 03:22, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I found out about it through one of her Instagram Stories, which disappeared. I do know what I listened to, but if you're that worried I just had ALT0 approved at Tommy Villiers - you could go with ALT3: ... that the "Feel It" guitarist Tommy Villiers is the great-great-great-great-grandson of the British Prime Minister John Russell, 1st Earl Russell? but you'd need to be quick.--Launchballer 04:59, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Have we got any possible alts cited to sources that we can all access? UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:07, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
one of her Instagram Stories, which disappeared is pretty much the antithesis of WP:RS. RoySmith (talk) 14:21, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
To be clear, I listened to the broadcast having been alerted to its existence by Instagram. I do have a policy of not citing sources I haven't seen (or listened to, in this case); Debrett's almost certainly has the claim that Tommy is the great-great-grandson of Thomas Hyde Villiers, but because I can't see it on preview, I used it for what I could see (up to Hugo) and used Burke's for the rest.--Launchballer 14:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Considering the issues here regarding sourcing, we will probably need a wider discussion, either at WT:DYK or even at WP:RSN or another appropriate noticeboard. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I was considering bringing this up at WP:RSN, but given that this is primarily an issue of verification for DYK purposes rather than a question of if a broadcast is a suitable source, I've started a discussion at WT:DYK#Template:Did you know nominations/Feel It (MJ Cole song) to get more eyes on this. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
Yesterday, Tommy Villiers was approved, but only for ALT1 (perhaps Vaticidalprophet missed that it was a double nom?). ALT3 (above), which incorporated that article, is sourced to books that can be found in libraries; Debrett's can be found in The British Library, while Burke's, which I used for most of it, I got from Fulham Library. They are both verifiable - in fact, I even took the liberty of drawing up a family tree to make obvious which bit I got from where.--Launchballer 09:45, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
I looked at that one for days and had no idea what to do with it -- it looked clear that the combined-hook one wasn't going to run, and "a nomination includes both combined hooks and separate hooks, the combined one is rejected" is not something for which I've seen sufficient precedent about how to handle the other half of the combination. Going by how long it sat at DYKNA, I'm guessing everyone else did the same. I eventually promoted it for the one that was approved in that specific nomination; I make no statements and have no opinions on how to promote the article in the rejected combined hook. Vaticidalprophet 09:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
The problem is that the only interesting hook failed verification, which is why I propose moving the Tommy Villiers stuff over here for a joint nomination, and leaving the Ur Mum stuff there. ALT3 is unusable as it is no longer in either article (see that nom). I therefore propose:
ALT4: ... that the "Feel It" guitarist Tommy Villiers started in Room C?--Launchballer 08:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't know about this one, it also seems to be rather prosaic or at least may not make sense without additional context? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that the "Feel It" guitarist Tommy Villiers has been a member of four different bands?
ALT6: ... that the "Feel It" guitarist Tommy Villiers has been a member of Room C, See Thru Hands, Porij, and Piri & Tommy? (I think context should make it clear what they all are, but "the bands" can be added if necessary.)--Launchballer 07:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
I suppose ALT5 is decent. Leaving this to another reviewer though. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:56, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
I just rechecked the article and it turns out I can't count. Not going to bother reworking ALT6, but it's five bands, I missed Dojo Dojo off. I therefore propose:
ALT7: ... that the "Feel It" guitarist Tommy Villiers has been a member of five different bands?--Launchballer 11:06, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
@UndercoverClassicist: As the original reviewer, are you able to approve any of the proposed hooks? Z1720 (talk) 14:24, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
ALT7 seems good to me: I can't see that the nominator has provided a direct source, but I see they're all in the article and cited. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
@UndercoverClassicist: If ALT7 is approved, can you readd the green tick below? Thanks, Z1720 (talk) 16:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Ah yes - UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
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