Talk:Tsona

Still a county?

@Kautilya3: You reverted my edit saying "unsourced and unexplained edits", even though I provided sources explain the fact Tsona is now a county-level city, I'd love to know which reason you still believe that this is a county. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:38, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Additionally @Interaccoonale, Yumeto, and Kcx36: on this topic. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:48, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

In China, on all occasions, we will only call it "错那市"(Cuònà City), not "错那县"(Cuònà County).Kcx36 (talk) 05:00, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Here are some of the former counties that have been established as county-level cities in recent years: Luanzhou, Huairen, Nenjiang City, Hai'an, Wuwei, Anhui, Longnan, Jiangxi, Zouping, Changyuan, Jianli, Shaodong, Hengzhou, Guangxi, Huili, Qianxi, Guizhou, Lufeng, Yunnan, Xunyang, Shaanxi. Kcx36 (talk) 05:10, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, this is English Wikipedia. It doesn't matter what you call it in China. "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.". See WP:CRITERIA.

Moreover, in the English language, a "county" and a "city" are completely different kinds of things. It would cause serioius confusion in the nature of the subject to call it a "city". It is not a "city". Please look up an English dictionary. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:04, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Hi Kautilya3, this is a name changing case, see the reports from The Wire, SCMP and RFA. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 15:44, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

SCMP has already been cited and covered in the main page. The other sources don't say anything new.

If you are arguing for title change, you need to explain how it satisfies the WP:CRITERIA. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Why not? First it satisfies Wikipedia:OFFICIAL. Second it should follow some past cases, for example, Kyiv. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 16:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

It's true that in the past it's a county, but I do not think that WP:CRITERIA means that the recent changes should not be revealed. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 16:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you even read WP:OFFICIAL? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:34, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course, but as long as there is no other better wikilink here, I still decide to use it. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 16:46, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

All right I know what's better, Wikipedia:NAMECHANGE. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 16:49, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:OFFICIAL tells you not to do exactly what you are trying to do. Case closed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Oppose early-bird closure of this case, support re-renaming and reverting Kautilya3's revertism, there are more and more reliable sources endorsed such a rename, how is this (as well as Mainling one) even hard than Kyiv's rename? I really don't wanna set-up #TsonaCityNotCounty or #MainlingCityNotCounty campaigns, they are weird works. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:12, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: How can't cms.leoncountyfl.gov reliable? PS: Your revert actions are now under this topic umbrella, which I agree Sanmosa's respond: This is erratic interpretation of RMUM. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:15, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Oppose early closure, I have to say I am not that familiar with the guidelines involved, but this obvious name changing case should have at least been discussed in detail.

Besides, as WP:CRITERIA has been listed so many times, let's check:

Recognizability: I don't think there is any difficulty in identifying this title.

Naturalness: The "actual name" is an issue. However, "If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." (per WP:NAMECHANGES)

Precision: I'm not sure why this isn't accurate anymore, unless you can show me a set of criteria for identifying the area as a county rather than a city.

Concision: No lack of brevity has been observed, and there seems to be no area of the same name.

Consistency: There's Lhasa (prefecture-level city), there's New York City, can't there be Tsona City? ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 12:51, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

You people appear to be new to English Wikipedia and perhaps new to the English language itself. I suggest you look up city and county to understand what those terms mean in English. A city is a large settlement (or a residential area) and a county is a georaphicall area (which is not necessarily residential, and in this case it is certainly not).

• So calling the Tsona County as "Tsona City" is not "natural". It is in fact confusing.
• Nor is it "recognizable". An English language speaker won't reconize "Tsona City" as being the name of a county.
• It fails "precision" too, because "Tsona City" in fact suggests Tsona Dzong, which is a town and a setlement.

What China calls a "county-level city" is a type of county, not a city.

China’s system of local administration is a highly complex one, comprised of ‘provinces’ (including autonomous regions, centrally administered municipalities and, more recently, special administrative regions), prefectures (including autonomous prefectures and prefecture-level cities), counties (including autonomous counties and county-level cities), and townships/towns.

In any case, when a page move is contested, you need to file a Request for Move. So, I suggest you do that if you want to take this furher. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:08, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I will do it, see below, what I'm doubting is just why a "County" suffix is still needed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:39, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm still new to this (laughs), but respectfully, Kautilya3, here are a few points I need to point out:

• We can foresee that future sources will call it a city, not a county, unlike many cases where the "essence remains the same" or "the source does not follow". A similar case is Kunshan, which is also a so-called "county-level city", but is generally referred to as Kunshan City rather than Kunshan County in English. Here are some similar descriptions from one paper:

The generation of the county-level city was the special content in the urbanization of China. The city forming from the county begun in 1979 after the reform and opening-up, and in that year, three cities such as Zhuhai, Shenzhen and Leshan was founded. To 1983, the mode forming city from county formed the first high tide, and in that year, there were 39 counties to be turned into cities.

• The descriptions listed by you are correct, and it is still administratively equal to the county (de jure), but it would be described as a city (see above) and would have access to more resources than a non-city county. In other words, it is "a county different from other counties" and would be called a "city", although in some statistics it will still be referred to as a "county". Maybe for convenience, IDK the exact reason.

ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 00:44, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I appearent to is new to English Weikipedia and pehapps as new as England languages. (You do not think I'm serious, do you? lol.) ——🦝 The Interaccoonale ^{Will be the raccoon race} _{(talk・contribs)} 05:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 9 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per WP:CONSISTENCY with other county-level cities, and per the arguments below. (closed by non-admin page mover) MaterialWorks (contribs) 01:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

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Tsona County → Tsona – Originally I believe that such move won't be controversial as not only officially announced, but also adopted by several reliable sources, but a user reverted my move and later, explained their own rationale that why it's controversial, so far let's start a move request instead. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:42, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support per my comments above. ときさき くるみ ^{not because they are easy, but because they are hard} 00:19, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Support. (I will use quotation marks for the names of the types of administrative divisions as I refer to the governmental classification) I am completely shocked by Kautilya3's erratic and problematic understanding on WP:RMUM and WP:OFFICIAL. Among all the things that need to be considered, the only major one is whether "Tsona" is currently a "county" or a "(county-level) city", and the answer is obvious that it is currently a "(county-level) city", and it does not matter that whether it is determined by a source in what language. So let me make the currect situation clear: "Tsona" is currently not a "county" at all (which has been announced and implemented by the government), but Kautilya3 considered it as "still a 'county'", which contradicts to the actual situation. If the current naming itself is erratic and can lead to misunderstanding (for this case calling an administrative division which is currently not a "county" at all as a "county"), the change of the article name is not the matter about WP:OFFICIAL and WP:UCRN, but the matter about WP:5P1 instead. Sanmosa _Outdia 00:43, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, I consider Kautilya3's remark that "you people appear to be new to English Wikipedia and perhaps new to the English language itself" offensive, as it is also obvious that all of us here use fluent English for communications, and of course we know the differences between a "county" and a "(county-level) city". I have received compulsory English education for 12 years, so I definitely need not a translator to read what Kautilya3 has written, and I find it terrifying for a person nearly not knowing anything about Chinese administrative divisions at all claiming people knowing Chinese administrative divisions more than him "not knowing things about (Chinese) administrative divisions". Sanmosa _Outdia 00:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I understand that Kautilya3 has different opinions on the meaning of the word city. Note, however, that English Wikipedia has WP:COMMONNAME. Chinese "市" (regardless of level) is usually called a city in English, so that's the name we should use. If you have any disagreement, should you move Prefecture-level city, County-level city and List of cities in China by population to somewhere else? ——🦝 The Interaccoonale ^{Will be the raccoon race} _{(talk・contribs)} 05:48, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. Since there is no mention of "city" in the proposal, I am no sure why all the !votes here are belabouring that issue. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

  Probably because the county/city distinction is extensively discussed in the section above that led to this move request. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support – a county-level city is a county-level administrative division, but it's distinct from a county. Reliable sources rarely refer to county-level cities as "X County". I hope the closer will also take into account the move request at Talk:Mainling County. The situation for these two articles is the same as far as I can tell, so it would be silly if one of them ends up moved and the other doesn't. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 14:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
• Comment, Just an opinion. The source of "county" is outdated, the change of administrative level of "city" happened recently, the term "county" is in the past tense, and the term in the introduction paragraph needs to be adjusted. As the naming of articles in administrative regions, does it need to follow the changes in terms of these administrative levels? For example, 'Sanshui City' (which is a county-level city) was dissolved in December 2002 and changed to Sanshui District. --Cwek (talk) 00:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

  Once again, the terminology of "Tsona City" is not currently under discussion. It won't happen unless and until there are multiple high-quality sources that use that term. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:04, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

  So? Your this comment more and more support my idea to re-rename it to be Tsona, without any suffix(es), neither city nor county. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:43, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

  I think it is related to the issue of consistency. As most of the county-level city articles in English Wikipedia are named without the "city" suffix, if Tsona is now actually a "(county-level) city" (instead of a "county"), then for the sake of consistency the article shall be named as "Tsona" without any suffixes. Sanmosa _Outdia 13:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

  No such thing. Some of these "county-level cities" might indeed be cities, and others might not be cities. There is nothing called "county-level city" in the English language. We are tipping our hat to the Chinese government, but we are not going to act like it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

  There is nothing called "county-level city" in the English language. That's not true. English-language sources about Chinese administrative geography tend to use the phrase "county-level city" to refer to the administrative units that are called 县级市 in Chinese. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 21:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment: Nearly all article about county-level city (see County-level city § List) do not have a "County" suffix. If the consensus is to keep the original title here, it seems there are dozens of articles that need to be renamed. BlackShadowG (talk) 12:41, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.