Talk:Nonviolence

Fourth paragraph of lead section

It’s sloppy and may need deletion or a rewrite into three or four sentences. Needs to be appropriately sourced. 2600:100C:B037:E65A:D07:3D09:CF56:D1D3 (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes - the writer seems to have made a false link between "pacifism" coming from the Latin word for "peace", and "passive" meaning non-active. These are two completely different words. 2001:861:5700:4370:AC16:B255:8133:6086 (talk) 12:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism warning

A massive complete deletion of the lead section is vandalism and is not tolerated at Wikipedia. Offenders may get blocked. Rjensen (talk) 14:23, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Intro image

@Howardcorn33 and Randy Kryn: I agree with user:Randy Kryn: Gandhi was THE leader who first demonstrated the power of nonviolence to the world. His face should grace the lede of this article.

Also, the image suggested by user:Howardcorn33 is NOT one of the iconic images in the history of nonviolence, and I do not think it belongs in this article, since this article already seems long. I think Wikipedia would benefit from an article on a "List of major nonviolent campaigns", starting with the 100+ in the database of Chenoweth and Stephan -- or the 50+ that they scored as "successful". I've provided my analysis of the 5 of their 100+ campaigns in the section on "The nonviolence of the First Intifada" in the Wikiversity article on "v:How might the world be different if the PLO had followed Gandhi?". Such an article could contribute to the literature by offering Wikipedians a place to comment, critique, and expand on that list. Image like that suggested by user:Howardcorn33 could have a place in such an article. However, I do not plan to take the lead in constructing such an article -- beyond what I've already done for the "five campaigns in Palestine or involving Palestinians" in Chenoweth's NAVCO 1.1 dataset. DavidMCEddy (talk) 09:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The reason I chose the image of the protestor handing flowers to police is that its a direct example of somebody committing to nonviolence in the face of a dangerous situation. a simple portrait of Gandhi’s face doesn’t serve as a direct example of nonviolence. if you have an image of Gandhi directly showing an example of nonviolence, then I will compromise and allow that as the lead image. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 17:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Mohandas Gandhi lived his life in such a way that his image alone is enough to portray the concept of nonviolence. His work in applying the concept to public goals and events became symbolistic of what nonviolence, as a science of societal action and love that he largely pioneered, could achieve. This is the reason the image has been stable for 10 years, readers "get it" that Gandhi himself has become a descriptor of the term. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with having an image showing Gandhi in the lead. My problem is that the current lead image is merely a photo-portrait of his face which doesn't really give an example of nonviolence specifically. If we could instead have an image which shows Gandhi showing his philosophy of nonviolence in practice, that would be a much clearer representation of the concept of nonviolence. The current photo in the article is merely a symbol of Gandhi himself, not an example of nonviolent action.

I offer the following images which may be agreeable to all of us:

• 
  Gandhi at the Salt March, one of his most famous nonviolent protests.
• 
  Gandhi picking salt during the same protest, which was a criminal, yet nonviolent, act of civil disobedience.
• 
  Gandhi spinning yarn. Gandhi promoted spinning yarn to reduce reliance on British machine-produced fabric and thereby boycott it. Boycotts are another act of nonviolent action.
• 
  Gandhi performed various fasts to promote Indian independence. Another nonviolent action.

I am perfectly fine with any one of the above images replacing the current lead image. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, Mohandas Gandhi's image alone personifies nonviolence. The opening image has been stable for ten years, and should continue as the lead image. There are many images which show the science of nonviolence in action, and they all lead back, in some form, to Mohandas Gandhi. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with User:Randy Kryn. This article could use links to the Wikipedia article on Salt March and the section on Civil rights activist in South Africa (1893–1914) in the Wikipedia article on Mahatma Gandhi, but I do not plan to take the time to do that. The alternative images do not show his face as well and therefore do not communicate as well as his face, in my opinion. DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The third image (Gandhi at his wheel) does have both his face and his iconic spinning wheel. And Gandhi’s face alone does not communicate nonviolence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, those aren’t even the only options we have. Gandhi was photographed a lot during his lifetime, so you are free to suggest other photos. These are merely the photos which seemed pretty obvious to me. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:37, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don’t see why we can’t have it both ways. Gandhi’s face tells us nothing about the action of nonviolence itself. Gandhi’s face isn’t in and of itself an action of nonviolence. Also not all images which “show the science of nonviolence in action” lead back to Gandhi. There are of course images of nonviolence people participating in nonviolent action before Gandhi was even born.Gandhi didn’t invent nonviolence. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 05:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Christianity

Very disappointed to find a lack of Holy Bible evidence and inspiration for nonviolence. From, charles west hammond 2600:1011:B30E:8F2F:D979:BEA1:3ACC:9316 (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The Bible is not holy, and it consists of a long series of murders of people like Absalom, Adonijah, and Jezebel. Where in this bloodbath do you see nonviolence? Dimadick (talk) 23:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Bible's holiness isn't something that can be productively debated in an encyclopedia. I haven't read through this article for years, but after briefly skimming, I would say a section on a Biblical foundation for nonviolence makes sense, since 1) other religious sources of nonviolent ideas are discussed so extensively and 2) Tolstoy, who is mentioned several times, was inspired by his readings of the New Testament scriptures.
The question of how the term nonviolence is distinct from pacifism is a bigger and thornier question, but also relevant: If nonviolence is a distinct concept focusing on a method to achieve political ends, as the lead section claims, rather than just the absence of violence, then why is there such extensive discussion about ahimsa and other religious concepts that seem more deeply connected to pacifism, objection to violence regardless of its political ramifications? I am not suggesting we take it out--What I'm saying is that if we include a focus on religious nonviolence apart from its political connotations, then we should include Christian pacifist movements as well (Quakers, Anabaptists, etc.). If they are excluded based on the specificity of the definition of nonviolence (which I understand), then the Indian religious foundations should be trimmed as well, except for the extent to which they motivated political movements such as Gandhi's.--MattMauler (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of the New Testament, the phrase Live by the sword, die by the sword from the Gospel of Matthew has been used in the past for condemnations against "soldiering and bearing weapons". Dimadick (talk) 10:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)