Talk:Ligue de défense de la race nègre

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 02:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that French Ligue de défense de la race nègre spawned the founding of a German counterpart in 1929? Source: Robbie Aitken (October 2008), "From Cameroon to Germany and Back via Moscow and Paris: The Political Career of Joseph Bilé (1892–1959), Performer, "Negerarbeiter" and Comintern Activist", Journal of Contemporary History, vol. 43, no. 4, pp. 597–616, doi:10.1177/0022009408095417, ISSN 0022-0094
  • Reviewed:

Created by Denis Barthel (talk). Self-nominated at 23:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Ligue de Defense de la Race Nègre; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Note to reviewers: While Denis Barthel has received credit for DYK nominations in the past, these were for hooks that were nominated by others, so they are not required to submit qpqs yet. Z1720 (talk) 14:18, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
  • For the sake of future reviewers, this is specifically QPQ-exempt nom #2, the first being Die BIF – Blätter Idealer Frauenfreundschaften. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing: - I did not detect any outright copyright violations. However, at least parts of this page appear to be copied from de:Ligue de défense de la race nègre. This is acceptable, but please provide the needed attribution so as to satisfy the terms of the CC-BY-SA license.

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - There's a lot of interesting stuff in this article, but this is not an interesting hook. Organizations often have affiliates in other countries.

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Denis Barthel: First of all, thanks for writing about a neglected area of history like this! With some copy-editing and a bit more detail about the main French chapter, I think this could be a GA. As to the two matters at hand: The copyright issue is an easy fix. And if you're looking for a new hook, might I suggest

ALT2: ... that a founder of the Ligue de défense de la race nègre created a successor group free of dogmatic communism, and was then expelled by dogmatic communists who took over?

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

@Tamzin: - thank you very much for your encouragement. I have fixed the copyright issue and I would like to suggest as a new hook (based on the former):

ALT3: ... that the French Ligue de défense de la race nègre spawned the first political organisation of Black Germans in 1929?

Please let me know, if that works. Thank you! Denis Barthel (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Denis Barthel: I think that works, yes, although I think it might be better without the "in 1929", and "spawned the founding" may be redundant... I would think either "spurred the founding" or simply "spawned". But I'll leave that to the promoter. with slight copy-edit. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 00:31, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I deleted "the founding of" and hope this is fine now. Denis Barthel (talk) 10:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Needs a new hook after discussion at Errors. Schwede66 23:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't have any ideas left and as I oppose ALT2 as it focuses on communism instead it's historic importance of early anti-colonialism, there is no hook available any more. I'd appreciate any ideas, else I guess this is just not right for DYK. Thanks for your efforts though, Denis Barthel (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC) P.S.: ALT1 has been struck though it is well sourced and mentioned in the article (beside this is not as common as Tamzin stated, neither in the anti-colonial movement nor in general at the time). Maybe it could be reconsidered? Denis Barthel (talk) 14:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

@Denis Barthel: If you would like, I can refer this to another reviewer for a second opinion as to whether ALT1 is sufficiently interesting. Personally I still do not see why it is interesting or unusual for an organization to have an affiliate in another country. That may well be the aspect of the article that is most interesting to you, but I don't think it will be interesting to Main Page readers. Alternately, as you say, we can end the nomination for want of a suitable hook. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 03:51, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, the original hook, if given an ALT number, is generally called ALT0 at DYK, not ALT1; there has never been a hook actually labeled ALT1 here ("ALT1" means the first alternative hook to the originally proposed hook). Denis Barthel, I do agree with Tamzin that an organization having a German counterpart isn't necessarily interesting. In addition, that hook has the "spawned the founding of" wording that was at issue in ALT3; reading the article and the source mentioned above, I'm dubious that "spawned" is the right word, as there isn't true clarity in the source about cause and effect and "spawn" in the meaning of "generated" has contemptuous overtones according to Webster's which I'm sure aren't intended here: perhaps "inspired" or "spurred" would be better, or something a bit stronger. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:08, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Tamzin:, @BlueMoonset:, thanks for your thoughtful replies. And while it was at any time before the end of WWII pretty unusual for an organization (even more an emancipation org) to have affiliates in another country, I agree, this indeed expects to much of a 2023 main page reader. If anyone has an idea for a proper hook, I'd be so glad, else I am fine with closing the proposal. Denis Barthel (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Denis Barthel, Tamzin, I'm not sure whether the following is sufficiently interesting, and sourcing would need to be supplied for the relevant sentences (rather than at the end of paragraphs), but here's a possible hook:

• ALT4: ... that the anti-colonialist Ligue de défense de la race nègre, which at one point had around 1,000 members, was suppressed by the French Government in 1937, ten years after its founding?

Note that I can't check the source for the 1,000 figure; it may be more specific as to when the "about 1,000" figure was reached by the LDRN—which was the same number (with the same "about") as the predecessor CDRN had in 1926—and could add some extra interest...or perhaps not. The hook runs 184 prose characters, so there's little room for expansion, but "at one point" could be replaced by "in 19xx", and "around" could be "about" if saving a character is needed—we need to be careful to keep some qualification as to when the 1,000 was achieved, lest the readers conclude that the 1,000 was at the time of the suppression, which is not a claim made by the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:11, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I like that a lot. The number seemingly was a continuous one, but wandered through the history of splits and divisions with the then biggest ones. "[...] three anti-imperial organizations that loosely succeeded one another from 1926 to 1939: the CDRN, the Ligue de défense de la race nègre (League for the Defense of the Negro Race, hereafter LDRN), and the Union des travailleurs nègres (Union for Negro Workers, hereafter UTN). These groups had branches in each of the major port cities and headquarters in the capital, and generally grouped a thousand members at a time.", Jennifer Anne Boittin (2009), "Black in France: The Language and Politics of Race in the Late Third Republic", French Politics, Culture & Society, vol. 27, no. 2, p. 26, Wikipedia Library, https://www-jstor-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/stable/42843598 Denis Barthel (talk) 10:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

ALT2 and ALT4 both cited, sourced, and interesting - I prefer ALT2, but either are fine. Good to go.--Launchballer 14:54, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Launchballer, the nominator had strong objections to ALT2 ("opposed" was the word used), which was proposed by Tamzin; we usually give a certain amount of deference in such cases. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ligue de défense de la race nègre/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: A455bcd9 (talk · contribs) 10:29, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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Interesting article, I didn't know anything about these organizations, thanks for creating it @Denis Barthel:!

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Typos: La Voix des Nègres, "Ligueof Kouyaté", La Race Nègre (always in italics for consistency), etc. Formatting: 1,000 I would add more links ("Pan-African", cities like Le Havre, links to the Wiktionary with {{wikt-lang}} on some French terms like nègre, "Afro-Caribbean", W. E. B. Du Bois, etc.), describe briefly people cited (e.g., "founded on April 30, 1924, by Beninese Pan-Africanist Kojo Tovalou Houénou"). Also: what is the "Left Fraction"? LgI is used but not defined. anti-colonial protests in Duala: Douala or Duala? => Here as well linking would help.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   blackpast.org is not RS => Better source needed. (rosalux: I don't know if RS or not => if a better source exists, it would be better.) I don't have access to all sources but from what I checked, each source supported the text in the article.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Would it make sense to have a section "Legacy" or "Impact" to explain the potential influence of these organizations (if any) after they disbanded? (influence on future organizations, movements, or people) Did former members do something noteworthy after? (if not: no need) The KPD and the League Against Imperialism had been dissolved, Padmore and Münzenberg had left the country, and Kouyaté had been expelled from the French Ligue.: when?

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   What about File:Affiche Ligue de défense de la race nègre femmes du Cameroun 1931.jpg?

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Should be easy to fix the few issues highlighted.

Comments

@Denis Barthel: please let me know once you have addressed the various issues so that I can do a new round of review :) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

@A455bcd9 - Done :). I worked through all of it and hope I could adress all issues? Let me know if there is still anything missing. And while I am at it, may I ask you a favor? I put in the picture you pointed out to me (thanks a lot!). As my French is pretty bad and automatic translation of the text is tough due to it's style, can you have a look on the caption if it is correct? Your help as a French native would be appreciated. Best, Denis Barthel (talk) 13:31, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

P.S.: concerning your question on a legacy, there is nothing I found in any of the sources. Personally I think that the death and the exiles of many protagonists, WWII and anti-communism as historical events wiped the memory of it away and post-war anti-colonialism resulting in independence movements rendered their positions as obsolete and outdated. It wasn't until the turn of the century that their stories got rediscovered. But this is just me and very much focussed on what I found in English and German literature, there might be stuff available in French literature, maybe writings of the Nègritude and later, but as mentioned I am unable to work with that. Denis Barthel (talk) 13:56, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Who are Émile Faure and André Béton ? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:28, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Same for "Victor Bell, other board members were actor Louis Brody, Thomasul Kuo Ngambi, Richard Ekamby Menzel" a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

+ George Padmore a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:36, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Sometimes you used "League Against Imperialism", sometimes "LgI": stick to one style. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Is it "Ligue universelle pour la défense de la race noire" or "Ligue universelle de défense de la race noire"? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback and your editing support. I fixed the LgI-issue and added the requested info on Padmore and Beton. Following the lead on Faure was especially great, as it contributed an important part of the LDRNs history. There seemingly is no information available though on the German board members (Bell, Ngambi and Menzel), thus I have to disappoint you here. I hope it works out now? Denis Barthel (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, it's a pass then, congrats! :) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)