Talk:Iga ikki

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 06:42, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• Iga ikki
• Kōka ikki
• Iga–Kōka alliance

)

• ... that in Sengoku Japan, ninja families established self-governed confederacies in Iga and Kōka which allied together? Source: Hook summarizes the articles and is therefore supported by numerous sources.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Margery Jackson; Template:Did you know nominations/North Carolina Council of State; Template:Did you know nominations/Neminath Jain Temple, Girnar

Moved to mainspace by 3family6 (talk). Self-nominated at 00:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Iga ikki; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @3family6: Good articles. Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Iga ikki/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: 3family6 (talk · contribs) 02:03, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Reviewer: Merytat3n (talk · contribs) 00:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking forward to reviewing this over the next few days : ) Merytat3n (talk) 00:50, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): Clearly written, just a couple of minor points:

• At an approximate date of 1560, the confederacy drafted a constitution... Suggest "Around 1560..." as Serebriakova (Barducci) & Orbach (2020) say definitively "In 1560", while Man (2012) p.96 (who you don't cite for this footnote) says it was written around 1560 but probably existed earlier.

Done.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Exactly how long the document was extent and how widely it applied to the villages is unknown. I found this confusing. Do you mean "extent" as in scale and area, or "extant" as in how long it existed?

Clarified.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• Sporadic guerrilla resistance continued for years and eventually was ended when Tokugawa integrated the Iga forces... I would remove "eventually".

Done.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• A castle was constructed in Ueno in 1585 by Sadatsugu Tsutsui. Elsewhere in the article, the last names are consistently put first. I know the source cited puts them in the Western order but a uniform last name - first name would be good.

I missed that, corrected.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

• The newly added Purported Tokugawa escape through Iga section needs trimming I think. It is interesting but it seems too detailed and a bit out of scope of the article. The info given is kind of null - its true but its debated but it might not have been that route at all. I feel it could be summarised considerably, or if necessary kept as a note. I would remove the heading "Purported Tokugawa escape". I would keep the first little paragraph of that section. The sentence about the oniwaban could be kept as Samurai: An Encyclopedia of Japan's Cultured Warriors says they were called Iga mono even though they were from Kii Province. I'm not a subject matter expert though so let me know what you think : ) Merytat3n (talk) 23:24, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Trimmed. Please let me know what you think of it now.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Looks good! Final thing: in "Edo period activities", it's mostly cultural things happening in Iga, except for the last two sentences which is about combat - both outside of Iga. I know its elaborated on in the "Further information" link but it might be worth throwing in a sentence (or 2) mentioning Iga were Edo castle guards, and that they were involved in x-battles, ending with the existing 1637 Shimabara Rebellion and 1853 Perry mentions. Let me know if this would be appropriate. Merytat3n (talk) 03:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Done!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

1. b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. Spot-checked using Man (2012), Serebriakova & Orbach (2020), Maltsev (2021)

   a (reference section):

   • The authors of Irregular Warfare in Late Medieval Japan: Towards a Historical Understanding of the “Ninja” are cited here as Barducci & Orbach (2020) but their names are listed on the paper as Serebriakova & Orbach (2020).

Ah, I think Serebriakova changed her last name to Barducci - the citation generator pulled from her name as given in Academia.edu rather than in the paper. Corrected.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

1. b (inline citations to reliable sources):

   c (OR):

   d (copyvio and plagiarism): Earwig comes back at 27% so no real worries. Some three or four word phrases. The longest phrases are things like to discuss issues of governance and cooperation and positioned in a village or camp.

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

5. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): All appropriate but Sawayama map and Battle of Nagashima could use US public domain tags

Done.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

1. b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

2. Overall:

   Pass/Fail: Thanks for your patience. Good work! Merytat3n (talk) 02:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Merytat3n I've addressed these issues. Thank you so much!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:23, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

i feel somewhat the name of Iga ikki were quite problematic here.. aside as i didnt find the counterpart in Japanese wikipedia, Ikki means rebellion, in japan. so i dont think its proper name describe a political confederacy that coexist with Tokugawa shogunate until its dissolution. not to mention the Shogunate and Todo Takatora also employ them as Oniwaban which is equivalent with secret police institute. previously, i didnt address this issue, but since now there's GA nomination review, i think its proper time to address it Ahendra (talk) 18:26, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Ahendra: I think that if you had an issue with the name of the article, you should have addressed it on the talk page at the time instead of interrupting a GA review by adding a lot of new content to the article and wanting to discuss a name change : ) I suggest you make a new topic on the talk page and discuss it there instead of inside the GA review space. Merytat3n (talk) 03:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Ahendra It's referred to as an ikki by multiple academic sources, and it is not the only quasi-state to be referred to as such. For instance, Kaga ikki and Yamashiro ikki. Ikki does mean rebellion but came to also refer to rebel-held areas. "aside as i didnt find the counterpart in Japanese wikipedia". It's a redlink, currently. I created this article for the English Wikipedia fairly recently, apparently no-one on the Japanese wiki has created an article yet for this entity. Furthermore, the redlink has "Ichire" has part of the title, which also means revolt.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:40, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

okay then, if its what academic paper mentioned Ahendra (talk) 04:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article name

continuing my concern regarding the name of the article. since i think Iga-Ikki arent proper name to describe a political entity, as Ikki means "rebellion", comparable with Ikkō-ikki, Saika Ikki, or Kaga ikki, which operates independently beyond the established imperial/shogunate. lets take another example about some rebellions during Toyotomi Hideyoshi's rule. the Kunohe rebellion were also dubbed as Kunohe-Ikki in Japanese.

Meanwhile, the Kōka and Iga confederation after the Tokugawa's rule in Iga province were coexisted under the Shogunate governance.

So i propose this article should be renamed as Iga-Shugo, or Iga confederation or simply Iga Republic instead. Ahendra (talk) 07:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:TITLE, titles should be based on what reliable sources call the subject. Can you supply evidence to support your proposed title change? Merytat3n (talk) 21:45, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I second Merytat3n's point. It's called an ikki in reliable sources, and indeed, the three other examples you gave all were political entities, operating de-facto independently.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ahendra: Let's try to get a general feel for which term is the most common : ) Googling "iga ikki" (inside quotation marks) returned 9360 results; googling "iga republic" returned 1820 results; googling "iga confederacy" returned 8 results.

If we search Google Books, "iga ikki" returns 98 results, the top results of which are Ferejohn & McCall Rosenbluth (2010) War and State Building in Medieval Japan, Turnbull (2017) Ninja: Unmasking the Myth, Turnbull (2011) Warriors of Medieval Japan, and Man (2013) Ninja. "iga republic" returns 9 results, the top result being Ferejohn & McCall Rosenbluth (2010) War and State Building in Medieval Japan again. "iga confederacy" returns one result: Turnbull (2017) Ninja: Unmasking the Myth.

Moving over to Google Scholar, "Iga ikki" gets us 16 results, "Iga republic" gets us 1, as does "Iga confederacy".

To me, it seems that this article already uses the name most commonly used in the relevant literature; the others are used but not as frequently and they are listed as alternatives in the first line of the article. Merytat3n (talk) 01:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Governance under Tokugawa shogunate

Another issue i think it need to be addressed is regarding this confederation's relationship with the Shogunate. it stated there the Iga province jurisdictions seems carved into new provinces by the Shogunate between Tōdō Takatora, Ii Naomasa, and Hattori Hanzō.

how do we approach the confederation government body which seems overlap with under those three governors? did it means the Iga confederation were like a legislative body which under the rule of those three? Ahendra (talk) 09:17, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The confederation ceased to exist. Ninja continued operating, but Iga as an effectively independent or discrete political entity was destroyed by Nobunaga.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:46, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

for me personally, "Confederation" or "clan confederation" seems good term.

beside, its already mentioned in the article that its government has some democratic element with each Iga clan has representative on the council Ahendra (talk) 06:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)