Talk:Hizb ut-Tahrir

Listing former members who have been in the news

I just figured it makes sense considering how much coverage they get in the Media. --Doctorkc (talk) 13:19, 8 May 2011 (UTC)aa

This Article needs to be nuetral, not constantly portraying HT as victims, nor constant insinuations of terrorism or anti-semitism

The controversies related to violence need to be in a concise form in the "position on violence" section as is the case with controversies related to anti-semtisim. Using the word 'terrorism' or 'terrorists' is also highly debatable according to wiki guides as it has not fixed definition anyway. Only credible sources can be quoted using this word, but it cannot be used in the passive wording of this article.

The article is a mess, i.e. a random section on some Turkish case. The intro is poisoned from the begining with propoganda and heavily loaded words such as 'Islamist'. There are FALSE references to HT believing in hijacking, when their website says the opposite, FALSE references to holocouts denial etc etc.

I will try to clean up, but give me some time Aaliyah Stevens (talk)

It does need to be cleaned up but their website is not a reliable source, as recently as 2005 it had very radical Islamist and violent/revolutionary material on it (unfortunatelly I do not have a copy of the old version). A lot of the controversy comes from confusion created by Hizb-ut Tahrir groups engaging in propaganda campaigns and also from whistleblowers/ex-members (such as Ed Husain)who have stated that HB is in fact a terrorist organization that advocates violence. As for use of the word "Islamist", it is a bit of a loaded term but also an accurate description of HB's stated goals (creation of a unified Islamic state). Voiceofreason01 (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Husain hasn't stated that. The trouble with the article is the very repetitive effort to tie the group to terrorism and the use of violence. Yes, this contention should be stated, with perhaps the most compelling evidence (if there is any; good evidence is not a long list of people just stating the contention) and then countervailing evidence including the group's response, and then move on. For those who want to make this an "anti-Hizb ut-Tahrir" article, I suggest a more fruitful path is simply to describe the group's various (to me) paranoid positions on a wide range of issues. This would be allowed under NPOV.Haberstr (talk) 18:15, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article should not harp on points that are unsource, however, HB engages in deliberate disinformation and propoganda campaigns that cloud the issue of their actual agenda. They have also implicated in revolutionary activities in Egypt. And Ed Husain does say in "The Islamist" that Hizb Ut-Tahrir advocates violence, just not publicly. Voiceofreason01 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC).

Incorrect Quote?

Re "In March and April 2002, Hizb Ut Tahrir handed out leaflets in a square in Copenhagen, and at a mosque. The leaflet, which also appeared on the Danish groups internet site, makes threats against Jews, using a quote from the Koran urging Muslims to 'kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have been turned you out.' The leaflet also said, 'The Jews are a people of slander…a treacherous people… they fabricate lies and twist words from their right context.'"

Is this in incorrect quote or is the error in the original? The text "from where they have been turned you out." makes no sense at all.

Also, it's ironic that the words "fabricate lies and twist words" appear in the paragraph after the 'quote' "kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have been turned you out [sic]". In M. A. S Abdel Haleem's annotated edition of the Qur'an, he explains the real context of this quote, and what it means when taken in the context of the text proper. He says that this (assuming this is the part he explains on page xxiii, which it appears to be) pertains to a specific historical, situation where the 'them' refers to a specific group of pagans that, inspite of having a treaty with the (very early) Muslims, repeatedly ignored it and attacked them. Even then, in the context, he says that it refers only to self-defence and then only with other limitations attached, in the full context of the quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.211.79 (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

POV tag added

Just for starters, the group explicitly has always condemned terror and the killing of innocents, but this article at present features 25 uses of the word 'terror' or its variants. The sheer repetitiveness of that POV-problematic word, is absurd here in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia entry about this emphatically NON-terrorist group. The group _does_ by Western standards take some odd positions, on sex education, homosexuality and in its advocacy of a caliphate, for example, but these are under-emphasized in the obvious campaign by ideologues who have infiltrated this supposed-to-be NPOV encyclopedia to stain HuT with words like 'terrorism', 'suicide bomber' and 'violence'.Haberstr (talk) 18:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I've made some initial rough improvements.Haberstr (talk) 23:25, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

one of the most notable things about Hizb Ut-Tahrir is that they are often classified as a terrorist organization and have been banned in several countries as a result. I would like to remind you and all editors that this is an encyclopedia and words like "terrorist" should not be used for shock value but if that is the language that our sources are using and they are relevent to the article then that is the langauge that we should be using and it should not be whitewashed out of the article, please review wp:weight for the relevent policies. Voiceofreason01 (talk) 18:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Western countries ... Australia

Since when was Australia a western country? Seems to be as east as east gets. 173.180.214.13 (talk) 05:26, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

In the contemporary religious and respectively cultural meaning, the term Western world refers to the countries of Western Europe as well as countries of European colonial origin in the New World such as the United States of America, Canada, Australia, Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile.[2][3][4] http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Western_world 06:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)Marlon Monroe (talk) 06:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia accounts for about 99% of this parties publicity =

In basically every template for "political parties in (insert name of Muslim country here)," this party is listed. That despite the fact that it's never taken part in any election and I've never heard it referred to on the news. I don't think this party is nearly as significant as the people pushing it on wikipedia would like us to believe 173.171.38.14 (talk) 18:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

You may be right --Doctorkc (talk) 13:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

I think most of its publicity in my experience consists of a succession of Labour and Tory UK Home Secretaries competing with each other to ban or suppress it in various forms. As for the templates: surely, it should only be included in such where their existence as a "political party" of any note can be supported with reliable sources. (Not that they should be cited in the template itself, but if there are no supporting references in the "Politics of (insert name of Muslim country here)" article...) 84.203.34.150 (talk) 18:32, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It gets coverage in the Australian news media. For examples, see Hizb_ut-Tahrir_(Australia)#References. Meticulo (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Saud Arabia

I think it is also banned in Saud Arabia as per islam-watch.org although I wouldn't quite trust such a site. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 14:41, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

According to this (unreliable?) site Saud Arabia is also funding Hizb ut-Tahrir. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 14:44, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

The HT Split - 1997 Redress

The article ignores that there are two groups operating as Hizb ut-Tahrir after a split in 1997 known as the "The Redress". Much has been discussed on the other Hizb ut-Tahrir's discussion forum on this including debates between the two sides such as the method to establish the Caliphate. Abu Jaafer (talk) 15:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:08, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Links

p>> Alleged Members Of Banned Islamic Group Arrested In Kyrgyzstan «Radio Free Europe»Lihaas (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Position on violance

The following Hizb ut-Tahrir states on its British website that it adopts the methods "employed by the Prophet Muhammad [who] limited his struggle for the establishment of the Islamic State to intellectual and political work. He established this Islamic state without resorting to violence." needs to be clarified https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.68.255.62 (talk) 09:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

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Rewrite

Am working on a major rewrite per tag. --BoogaLouie (talk) 01:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

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Rewrite

re: {{cleanup rewrite|date=July 2010}} tag
Have been rewriting article over about six months (not all the edits are mine over that time period) to satisfy complaint of tag including a lot of information from HT texts. Have tried to be concise but article is now much bigger.

Will wait a while for any comments before deleting the tag --207.225.131.140 (talk) 18:11, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Tag deleted. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:08, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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HT in Germany

HT operates in Germany through a network of Facebook and Twitter pages. Since they are banned, they do not operate under the HT name or logo but are still obvious to anyone who knows them. Is this enough to write about it in a encyclopedia ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saflid (talk • contribs) 14:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Quotation marks?

This article seems to have an unreasonable number of quotations. There seems to be a one- to four-word quotation nearly every sentence. I think this article is well overqualified for a quote farm template. Would this be appropriate? 73.65.146.100 (talk) 01:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

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Somebody has chopped up the opening sentence.

The opening sentence reads:

"Hizb ut-Tahrir (Arabic: حزب التحرير‎‎ Ḥizb at-Taḥrīr; Party of Liberation) is an international, [[Pan"the Islamic Khilafah (Caliphate)" or Islamic state."

Now, apart from the open [[, I can see that is not a complete sentence. Presumably an inexperienced editor has messed up the syntax.

I would recommend changing it to:

"Hizb ut-Tahrir (Arabic: حزب التحرير‎‎ Ḥizb at-Taḥrīr; Party of Liberation) is an international, Pan-Islamic organization whose aim is the creation of a Khilafah (Caliphate) or Islamic state."

Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

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Founder's name

I'm not really familiar with Arabic, but I think that the instances when the founder's name is mentioned should be standardized. Is it "al-Nabhani", or "an-Nabhani", or "Nabhani"? Should it have a hyphen ("al-Nabhani") or not ("al Nabhani")? Jkgree (talk) 19:50, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Logohizbuttahrir.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:07, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Hizb Tahreer and Salafism

Why on earth are they listed as a Salafi group. There is nothing at all to suggest from HT's sources or readings that they are a salafi aligned group. Even on the page itself, there is nothing to link it as a bonafide salafi or even far right group. This seems like gutter research that one would expect of those who simply read crappy journalistic articles that blame salafism for all terrorism.

HT is a Pan-Islamist organisation, as clearly referenced within the article. Whilst they are influenced by Salafi thought, as most modern Islamist groups, they do not claim to be Salafi and there are large credal differences between the two groupings — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dedicatedediter1001 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

June 2022 rewrite

The 12:30, 14 June 2022‎ edit by WassimDoureihi added 24,035 bytes with the edit summary "Arrange and correct some grammatical errors", but that edit and other edits by WassimDoureihi since that time rather look like a tendentious rewrite of large parts of the article. I have therefore restored the 10th June revision before that.

Please compare the 10th June revision which I have restored with the revision by WassimDoureihi before my restore. It will be immediately obvious how the characterization of the Hizb ut-Tahrir as a pan-Islamist and fundamentalist organization that has been officially banned in many countries has been replaced with a panegyric about an innocent proselytic organization that seeks to restore the good old Islamic way of life in the Muslim world and whose ideology is meticulously thought out and published in many detailed books... It seems fairly clear that WassimDoureihi's revision is not in any way neutral towards how reliable sources characterize this topic, and will therefore never get consensus among Wikipedia editors. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:38, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Note that WassimDoureihi removed a very large amount of sources on the Hizb al-Tahrir's ideologies in this edit, and that therefore they are not present in the 10th June revision linked to above.

While it's clear that in this revision, the last one before several accounts (Abdullah.khaled, WassimDoureihi, and now Abmoza) started to whitewash this article, the 'Ideologies' parameter in the infobox was overloaded with poorly sourced labels, at least the Islamism, and probably also the Pan-Islamism label, are well supported by the sources mentioned there, especially Commins 1991. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Turned out that WassimDoureihi was a sockpuppet of Abdullah.khaled (both of whom are now indef blocked for sockpuppetry and tendentious editing), so I have restored this revision, dating from 1 February 2022 and being the revision before Abdullah.khaled's first 2022 edits to the article. I checked some edits before that and the article was stable for several months at that time.

The infobox now again contains the overlong list of poorly sourced labels, but I will leave it to other editors to decide which of them are most appropriate. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 17:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistency on banning countries

China is mentioned in the list of countries which ban the organization in the introduction/ summary but not in the list in the background, as is the UAE, as an exception. Perhaps it would be better to only have the list with sources in the background and not mention specific countries in the introduction/ summary; alternatively, just remove the discrepancy. Jontel (talk) 17:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 February 2024

Now illegal in U.K, designated terrorist organisation. 80.233.73.30 (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Fallacious reliance on subsidiary leaflets?

I've noticed that much of the information about the group cites pamphlets and leaflets spread by members of the organisation throughout the world. It's unjust and fallacious to reason that a random leaflet somewhere in the world reflects the view of the entire organisation. Hizb ut tahrir branches in different countries operate semi independently. The individual leaflets and pamphlets are as a general rule not endorsed by the organisation itself.

The evidence for this is the apparent contradictions between various materials attributed to the organisation across the world, this is clearly because there is no central directive instructing HT branches in different countries about what specific content to include in their material. Therefore it logically follows that only sources issued directly by the central management of the organisation should be adduced as proof of the organisation's positions. Currently this page is very messy and lacking in probative value due to this illogical selective citation of random leaflets. The whole page needs to be reformed in this respect to clarify the central organisation's positions. Where there is no central position, the matter should be left blank. Please read this and understand that the current state of the page is not impartial and needs to be corrected.

If we take the further example of Al Qaeda, the during the 2000s the predecessor of ISIS was called AQI (Al Qaeda in Iraq). However their ideology and activities were not endorsed by the central organisation. AQI had a far more takfiri and Shia phobic ideology. It took a hybrid belief system of early Wahhabism (i.e. pre 20th century Wahhabi reformation by the teachers of ibn Baz and ibn Uthaymeen) along woth the early Kharijite ideology. This was in stark contrast to the central AQ organisation which favoured Sunni Shia unity, to the point that their current leader Saif al Adel literally operates from Iran. He's sheltered there by the radical Shi'ite Islamist IRGC. Also AQ central pledged allegiance to a Maturidi Amir (Mullah Omar in Afghanistan). This was a move totally against the Kharijite/Wahhabi ideology of AQI/ISIS, which despises Maturidi Muslims and sees them as non Sunnis and therefore enemies. The ideology of AQ central was therefore essentially an extreme radical Ikhwani ideology, mostly reflecting Qutbism. This distinction is critical.

During the 2000s, the wikipedia page was confusing because it cited AQI evidence as representative of AQ central's ideology. This was obviously a mistake and was eventually corrected, but the current state of HT's page is the same. Let's not repeat the same AQ mistake with HT.86.9.17.34 (talk) 20:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2024

In the fourth paragraph of the section "Justifying terrorism and the "conveyor belt", "Bakri, Muhajiroun and/or it front groups desire "should read "Bakri, Muhajiroun and/or its front groups desire". CamAnders (talk) 23:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Done. Rainsage (talk) 05:13, 8 October 2024 (UTC)