Talk:Attalus I

FA sweeps

The article has overreliance on ancient sources, which are not high-quality RS. (t · c) buidhe 01:50, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

In addition, the ancient sources are taken at face value, whereas scholarship has focused far more on their reliance on Attalid PR. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 07:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: after a quick skim, it seems like the issues you raised last year were not addressed and the article still uses a lot of inline citations to primary sources. Are you interested in bringing this to FAR? Z1720 (talk) 18:27, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Z1720, I mean it's definitely not FA standard, but I don't really have the time or energy to fix it right now. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:50, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Would you be willing to nominate it at WP:FAR? This could bring the attention to other editors that this needs to be fixed. I would do it myself, but FAR has a 5-article-per-editor limit, and I'm at my limit. Z1720 (talk) 20:43, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

"dynast"?

@Isaac Rabinovitch: Can you please explain why you think there is a problem with the use of "dynast" to describe Attalus I? Thanks. Paul August ☎ 17:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Here's the OED definition of "dynast": One in power; a ruler, lord, chief, potentate, esp. a hereditary ruler; a member or founder of a dynasty. In other words, dynast is not a title.

When you say "he first ruled as dynast" what does that mean? A king can be a dynast, but you're talking about how he ruled before he was king. What was his title before he became king? Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Before he became king, he didn't have a title. Greek historians usually use "dynast" for that period, which is a standard term for an autocratic ruler in this context. Example: [1] Furius (talk) 23:18, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Exactly. Paul August ☎ 23:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you quoted the source that uses the word "dynast" that way. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 02:52, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

See these examples. Paul August ☎ 03:56, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, the usage "ruled as a dynast" seems to be very common. But as used here, it's very confusing. I searched for this usage on English Wikipedia and "dynast" often seems to be a translation of frataraka. Perhaps that's what's meant here? Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 10:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

A Frataraka, was a title given to a particular series of Persian rulers, so no Attalus was not a Frataraka. He was a hereditary ruler, i.e. a "dynast" (look it up) of Pergamon. Can you please explain what you find confusing about this? Paul August ☎ 10:50, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I've already explained why I find it confusing. Can you share the source for "first as a dynast, then as a king"? Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 11:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry but I don't understand your confusion. Can you please try to explain it again? Paul August ☎ 01:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

The source I cited above reads on page 9: "a local dynast named Attalus... now proclaimed himself king." Furius (talk) 23:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

And very many of the examples that you brought up in your search above are of Lycian rulers like Pericles, Dynast of Lycia, who similarly had no title. Furius (talk) 23:22, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I looked at the source for Pericles, and I just don't see where it says he had no title. A ruler with no title seems very strange.

Here's what I think is going on. Ancient rulers had a variety of titles, and it can be difficult to agree on the translation. For example, I've seen "basileus" translated as "king," "duke," and "emperor". Translators choose to avoid the issue and just use the generic word "dynast." Which is fine when "dynast" is used in isolation, but when you use comparisons like "first he was a dynast, then he was a king" it sounds nonsensical, like "first he was head of state, then he was President" or "first he was a factory worker, then he was a machinist."

It would be helpful if we had the Greek words that are getting translated as "dynast" and "king". Or even the English passage that you're reading as "first he was a dynast, then he was King." Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 12:19, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

No, that's not what is going on. Until he took the title of basileus ("king"), Attalus had no title at all. Inscriptions refer to him as "Attalus" (e.g. https://epigraphy.packhum.org/text/301612: "[Ἄττ]α̣λος [Ἄτταλον][τὸν π]ατέρα, [ἀρετῆς ἕνεκα]." "Attalos (honoured) Attalos his father for his excellence"). This is a common situation in Anatolian and Greek history (and not nearly as strange as the fact that the kingdom that he ruled over had no official name). "Dynast" is regular English term used in these contexts (it derives from Greek dynastes meaning "powerholder"). The example, "first he was head of state, then he was president" is analogous to Attalus' journey. Furius (talk) 13:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

We're going all over the place with this argument, so let's focus on the crucial issue: what is the source for "first as dynast, then as King."? Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 13:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I gave one to you on 23:18, 10 December 2022. On 23:18, 11 December 2022 I quoted the relevant section for you. There is also [2] pg. 12-13; [3], pg. 81; "Attalos I, for whom the step from dynast to king was indeed momentous"; a discussion of Attalus' predecessor Philetairos as "a local dynast" who was richer than "any other dynast in Asia Minor" (i.e. showing this is a common term in this field). Furius (talk) 15:10, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

OK, these sources say he was a dynast before he started calling himself a basileus. But they do not say he had no title before he became king. They just don't say what the title was.

Consider Attalus's predecessor, Eumenes I. He ruled Pergammon under the overlordship of the Seleucids 263, then rebelled. He ruled the city independently for 21 years, but never proclaimed himself King. Are you saying that he ruled for two decades without some kind of title? Seems more likely that he continued the fiction that he was Seleucid satrap. This kind of fiction is very common in feudal societies. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 15:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Eumenes never had a title either. See, for example [4], [5], where he is just "Eumenes" or "Eumenes son of Philetairos", even when his underlings have titles. You have no sources for this theory of yours and it is not correct. If, having been told what the facts were, you had suggested ways to make the phrasing clearer to you, we could have had a productive conversation. Furius (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I see we're into personal attacks, so this is where I give up. Go ahead and revert me. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed the version from when this was a featured article. That description of Attalus is perfect. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 20:22, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

So, perhaps "first as a dynast" would be clearer? Furius (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Currently it reads: "first as dynast, later as king". So, if we change "dynast" to "a dynast" (which I like) should we also change "king" to "a king" to preserve the parallelism? Paul August ☎ 00:48, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I thought that removing the parallelism might make it clearer that only the latter is a title... but I don't know. Furius (talk) 23:20, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

(sur)name or epithet

"Soter" is not a surname in any sense but a epithet of many given to kings in the hellenistic age. Others include "Euergetes" or, in association with Alexander, "Megas" (the Great). The current wording is simply misleading. MeAmME (talk) 19:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Setting aside surname vs. epithet... I did change the later edit of "epithet" back to "name". The lede has to be written to be the most accessible to the widest audience, especially while it's on the front page, so maybe best to use "took the name Soter" at the very least. An "epithet" is, strictly speaking, a "name", too, and for readers unfamiliar with the Hellenistic era who already see a blizzard of unfamiliar terms, we can use one simple word here to make things a tad easier. SnowFire (talk) 19:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

As for "surname", please consider this Google search. Paul August ☎ 00:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)