Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry

Stephen Pears

I'd always been vaguely aware of this goalkeeper who made a single appearance for United in the 1980s, but I didn't know that he also had a spell at Liverpool (August 1995 - June 1996). He never played a first-team game for them, but was a full squad member (number 27) and I assume third choice (after James and Warner). Can/should he be added to the list, or does not having played a first-team match for Liverpool disqualify him? There are so few players who have signed for both clubs that I think he warrants inclusion in some form - perhaps a mention in the text if not the table - but I wanted to see if anyone disagrees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiresman (talk • contribs) 23:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

He may be worth a mention for having been owned by both clubs as it's still relatively niche. And he was second choice for Liverpool after injury to No.2 Michael Stensgaard. Warner was (at least on paper) no.3 that season. Koncorde (talk) 13:06, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Should the 7-0 game have an article of its own?

Had the scoreline been 7-0 to United, I would have suggested the same thing. Beatdowns like the one that happened yesterday happen once in a century, the last time United lost by 7 goals, my nan was 9. Results like these do not usually happen in such a high-profile match, that's why Barca 2-8 Bayern has an article, that's why Brazil 1-7 Germany has one, that's why Man United 8-2 Arsenal has one. Xxmadaraaxx (talk) 13:48, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

SoL Charity Shield

The 1906 Sheriff of London Charity Shield should be included, as it was the forerunner to today's FA Community Shield. BRACK66 (talk) 15:22, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

The 1906 Sheriff of London Charity Shield should not be included as it is not recognised as part of the history of the FA Charity/Community Shield. The Charity/Community Shield as it exists today began in 1908. No one but Liverpool FC recognises it as one of their honours. – PeeJay 00:45, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Football League Super Cup 1986

Could you explain to me why you removed the Football League Super Cup title won by Liverpool in 1986? It is an official title as it appears on the club's website, before Liverpool won this year's league cup it appeared on the honours table.

Source: [1]https://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/honours Eros 87 (talk) 15:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Liverpool claim the Lancashire League title on that page too, but I wouldn't list it here. Just because something is listed there doesn't mean it should be listed here. Can you find any independent sources that talk about the FL Super Cup? – PeeJay 16:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

An article in The Guardian and inFourFourTwo could serve as independent sources:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/oct/26/forgotten-story-english-super-cup

https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/football-league-super-cup-liverpool-everton-englands-least-loved-competition Miria~01 (talk) 09:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

That competition was organized after the English teams were suspended by UEFA, when they were banned from participating in UEFA competitions for a while. Liverpool and Manchester United also took part in it and it is fully justified to be included in this table. It's certainly bigger than the Community Shield, then drop that competition from the table or the Intercontinental Cup. Only if you are a Manchester United fan then I understand why you didn't include him in this table, but that doesn't change the fact that Liverpool is the most trophy-winning and biggest English club. 31.223.135.153 (talk) 14:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

It was organized by the EFL, as were the FA Cup, Football League Cup, Premier League and other competitions. 31.223.135.153 (talk) 14:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The difference is, the Community Shield has been played pretty much every year for over a century, as has the Intercontinental Cup for over half a century. This competition was played once nearly 40 years ago and barely anyone remembers it except Liverpool fans who are desperate to count one more trophy that Man Utd didn't win. – PeeJay 15:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be the opposite case that Man Utd. Fans don't want to fall behind. But it actually does not matter. It is important to note that this is an official competition and not some other unofficial friendly tournament. If you still don't want to have this in the table, then you have to record it in the table with an asterisk and a note,which tournaments are included.(like here in the source: https://www.livescore.com/en/news/five-most-successful-english-clubs-liverpool-manchester-united-arsenal-chelsea-manchester-city-2024022611164493635/)

--> Excerpt from the table what this could look like

Honours^[†]

Domestic honours
Competition	Liverpool		Manchester United
	Titles	Year	Titles	Year
Premier League	1	2019–20	13	1992–93 ...
First Division	18	1900–01, 1905–06, 1921–22 ...	7	1907–08, 1910–11, 1951–52, 1955–56, 1956–57, 1964–65, 1966–67
...
Worldwide total	1		2
Combined total
Combined total	68		67

^† Only Major trophies: First Division/Premier League, FA Cup, League Cup, Charity Shield/Community Shield, European Cup/Champions League, UEFA Cup/Europa League, Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, European Cup Winners' Cup, UEFA Super Cup, FIFA Club World Cup, Intercontinental Cup.

Miria~01 (talk) 16:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

It does not matter that it was organized only for one year, it is an official competition, which was organized by the official football organization in England, 18 games were played and if UEFA had not withdrawn the penalty, who knows how many more years it would have been played. The Shield and Intercontinental Cup have a longer tradition of being competitions involving only one match between two clubs. If by some chance that Super Cup was organized for several years, it would be classified as a major trophy, which is not the case with the Shield, even though it has a long tradition. 31.223.135.153 (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree it was official, but I have the same problem with it like with Football League Centenary Trophy on Arsenal-MU rivalry, where Gunners take it into account for cumulative trophies. It's like one-off and no one even calculates appearances in it as official (at least I haven't seen any United players having it in their bio) - or maybe only teams that have won it take it seriously.

So I'm opposite, but if you insist it could be in the bottom of the table, like "Other trophies/tournaments". Red Devil (talk) 22:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

So for me the only thing that matters is a note on the table itself, if not all official trophies are counted. This is the only way it becomes clear to others that there may be other minor titles, that are not taken into account here and have not possibly been forgotten. Other trophies/tournament is never optimal because it is never clear what is included. However with a corresponding note, as in the example, the need would also disappear. Miria~01 (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

They have shown you 2 sources relating to the 1986 Super Cup was an official competition organized by the EFL. There is no difference whether this tournament was only 1 edition or 4 like the league cup in Spain, the point of the matter is that it is an official tournament and you are removing it from the trophy table.

Do you need another source? Here it is: [2]https://taleoftwohalves.uk/featured/post-heysel-1-football-league-super-cup/ Eros 87 (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

As this is a list of competitive trophies representing the rivalry between Liverpool & Manchester Utd, it doesn't have the same criteria of Major / Minor that other articles might (a criteria that is different depending on media source, and how close the two clubs have been at various times). As such, the use of the lead and the trophy count as a barometer of just whose club has the biggest dad from year to year is very much a tribal WP:RECENTISM. Very few people are seemingly anywhere near as animated to contribute anywhere else in the article. We are free to include Lancashire League, Reserve League One and similar competitions if we wish - but to the average reader they are unlikely to be viewed in the same light, and any attempt to provide contemporaneous sources about relative trophy counts specifically exclude them. In contrast reliable sources either categorise Major / Minor (often disagreeing which goes in where), or create their own synthesis of a list (such as dropping the Charity Shield, or World Club Cup, the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, or Super Cup or similar) such as Goal.com's most recent article (67 apiece), or TheAnalyst.com (46-43), or last years Mirror (68-67) or this years SportBible (68-67) many of which aren't entirely clear as to which Trophies it is including. Problematically, there's a high chance wikipedia itself is becoming an unattributed source for some of these trophy counts creating a risk of circular sourcing. Amusingly, some websites like Livescore aren't even internally consistent, publishing a count after Liverpools recent League Cup win of 67-67 "Major", but 46-43 "Major" on their Facebook page within a few days, while a year earlier they were at 68-67. Almost like the whole thing is contrived. Koncorde (talk) 00:17, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

united just won FA cup

change that remark, its now 68-68 .. get in United . 2A00:23C5:F1A4:F100:B8C7:67CC:6F5A:A2E9 (talk) 16:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

already done Red Devil (talk) 16:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)