Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow. Disputable death date.
• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer aka Joszef Aczal (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page)
• Hermann Flick (Germany) - stated to have been killed in action near Leningrad in 1944 without citation.
• Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in German wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable, I can only make out he died on the 'Ostfront' (Eastern Front). His German wikipedia article locates his death in Russia at Khalikovo (a place that appears to have no article).
• Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
• Karl-Richard Idlane (Estonia) - Death cause and death dates (both in 1942) disputable.
• Karl Kanhauser (Austria/Czechoslovakia) - German wikipedia states without citation he was drafted into the German army towards end of WWII and deployed to Yugoslavia where he was reported missing, no final year given.
• Franz Krumm (Germany) - There is a link to the German Volksbund (war graves commission) website but it does not directly connect to his details and I lack expertise to interrogate the site.
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia. Can anyone more fluent in German make out further detail in the newspaper report used as reference?
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Frank Manders (Great Britain) - Would welcome information that can definitely connect the airman who died at Sutton Coldfield to the airman of that name who is known to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) and is buried at Maidenhead, England. (There is a minor date discrepancy regarding his death.)
• Artur Marczewski (Poland) - his Polish and German wikipedia articles state without citation he disappeared in January 1945 following Red Army advance into Poland, where he had been working for the Germans as a factory official.
• Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
• Alexander Martinek (Austria/Germany) - Death date is disputable, the German wikipedia page gives this as in 1945 and cites it to the Volksbund website but the citation is not linked to a web page.
• Otto Martwig (Germany) - stated to have died in battle of Berlin without citation in German wikipedia.
• August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
• Alberto Nahmias (Greece) - death circumstances disputed; his English article gives two different years of death in 1980s without source. His Greek wikipedia biography states he was arrested by the Germans in 1942 because of Jewish origins and further trace was lost, possibly because of being put to death, although also said to have emigrated post-war. Can someone find sources that settle this? The nearest named individual recorded from Greek Jews listed in the Testimony Pages of Yad Vashem is an Alberto Nachmias (sic), born in Greece, died at Auschwitz, age given as 42 but no birth or death date given. However out of the estimated 6M Jews killed in the Holocaust only 4.5M are known to Yad Vashem.
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war. In Croatian wikipedia, he is stated with citation to have been executed following Communist seizure of power in Croatia with 'date of execution' stated unknown, though the infobox gives a precise date of 27 May 1945 and death place as Zagreb.
• Kurts Plade (Latvia) - Repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, his Latvian wikipedia article states he was 'killed' (no further detail) in February 1945 in Poznan, Poland. I note his death coincided with the Soviet siege of Poznan.
• Bernardo Poli (Italy) - Italian wikipedia indicates he died in 'an unspecified war accident' serving as an airman. Only citation in English wikipedia does not indicate manner of his death.
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia) - Stated without citation in English and Russian wikipedias to have died in siege of Leningrad, allegation not supported by cited sources Olympedia and Russian language Profile, the latter of which states his fate after 1914 "is unknown".
• Holger Salin (Finland) - No decisive death date in most wikipedias. Although Finnuser reported a newspaper report states only he was killed in an accident, his German wikipedia article states that after his last international match (1943) he "fell..in the Continuation War" [term given to Finland's hostilities with the Soviet Union over 1941-45 in concert with Germany] in '1943 or 1944'. I do wonder if he was serving in the Finnish Armed Forces though. (Accidents as well as combat killed a number of players on the list.)
• Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
• Gennaro Santillo (Italy) - Categorised as Italian military personnel killed in the war but no indications of military service on Italian wikipedia. Would like to be more certain of his status (mil or civ) before adding him.
• George Scoones (expatriate Briton who played in France) - French wikipedia (not English) give him same death date in 1940 as a soldier known to the CWGC in this link: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2278867/george-w-scoones/ See talk page - any agreement this is likely to be the same man?

UPDATE - Cattivi has found link to a French newspaper that show he is the same man. I am awaiting answers to questions I have put him.Cloptonson (talk) 21:43, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

• Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man? In 2022 NZFC said he was investigating but has so far not responded.
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in Volksbund site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date
• Hugo Väli (Estonia) - originally listed by Olympedia as died in Soviet camp in Siberia, the source now falls in with information he died in Talinn in September 1944, making it questionable whether he was in Soviet captivity or died as a result.
• Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location, identification questionable due to disputable birthplace details.
• Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.
• Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death disputed - UPDATE - I have located a page in the Volksbund site and have added it as citation to support the later alleged death date.Cloptonson (talk) 08:26, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 08:51, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Location in the lead of club articles

Looking for opinions on whether a state (or province) is necessary to mention in the lead of an article about a club. In the case of Seattle Sounders FC, there has been a dispute over this tiny change in wording, which had long been part of the article during its time as an FA, and it's getting tiresome. MLS articles have long had to blend norms from both global soccer articles (where neighborhoods and cities are mentioned side-by-side) and American sports articles (where states can be used), so some clarity seems to be needed. SounderBruce 03:16, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any issue with including the state. Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get is that it's far more common for the state to be included than not when talking about places in America. If that's the case, I'd suggest it would be better to include it. It also doesn't seem to have been an issue when it was promoted to FA, even if that was a while ago. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

No issues with state being included. GiantSnowman 11:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

List of J.League managers

I'm not sure what to do with the List of J.League managers – it's a somewhat random, cherry-picked list of people currently. It seems too unwieldy to expect this page to list every manager of every J.League club since the early 90s, especially taking into account J2 and J3 League teams. Is there any similar examples of pages from other countries leagues that have a similar set-up? Any advice generally on this page would be much appreciated. Thanks. Stueybrock (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

In its current form it is unsourced and not fit for purpose. GiantSnowman 11:21, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Nationality in lead

Could anybody please provide guidance regarding how to approach including the nationality in the lead of a footballer from the former Soviet Union (in this instance, Andrei Kanchelskis. I was of the belief that if there is any kind of dual nationality or complication etc, it isn't included in the opening line but is noted somewhere in the lead (e.g. Thiago Motta, Deco). How should this be dealt with in regards to Kanchelskis? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE says "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable". Kanchelskis played international football for the Soviet Union and Russia so I think that should go in the lead. I see Oleg Blokhin is called a "Ukrainian and Soviet former football player and manager", which makes sense as he was the USSR's greatest outfield player, though he's outlived that country and can't be called just a Soviet. However for younger players who grew up in the Soviet Union but had no senior football connection to it (Shevchenko, Arshavin, Hleb...) I wouldn't mention the Soviet Union at all in the first line. One of the oddest things I saw recently was someone calling Yaya Touré an "Ivorian-British footballer" because he obtained British nationality way into his 30s, while that means absolutely nothing to his career. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Ex-Soviet players are somewhat different to those who were born in one country and played for another through heritage/residency. GiantSnowman 11:22, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Saying that someone "is a Ukrainian and Soviet [anything]" makes no sense, because the present tense indicates that they are currently a Soviet [whatever], which cannot be the case as the Soviet Union hasn't existed for over thirty years. That needs to be worded in a different way -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Either it needs to be "is a Ukrainian" or "is a Ukrainian and former Soviet". GiantSnowman 16:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

So would Kanchelskis be "a Russian and former Soviet", even though he wasn't born in Russia/modern Russia? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 20:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I would have him as simply 'is a Russian former footballer'. GiantSnowman 20:49, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Would agree, if only because his nickname was "The Flying Russian" (which almost certainly warrants a mention in the article if it isn't already) and that (Russian) is how 99% of sources will refer to him as it is at least in part what made him famous. However I would be tempted to go with "former Ukrainian (or Russian) manager and footballer who represented the Soviet Union and Russia/Ukraine" where there is continued source support for a specific sporting nationality of note (i.e. Blokhin has subsequently managed Ukraine, while Kanchelskis has managed / played in Russia).

As for random gaining of international passports (such as Toure) - MOS:BIO has always been about the reliable sourced description of a player, WP:FOOTBALL has then adopted a variety of consensus to handle them. It's not ideal, as there are instances where honestly it could go either way (such as Alfredo Di Stéfano who is described repeatedly as Argentinian - but is most famous for playing in and for Spain) and complex statements can be more misleading them omitting and clarifying, or writing a leading sentence that is very specifically accurate (i.e. mention WHO they played for). Koncorde (talk) 23:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Syrian flag

Why are we changing {{fb|SYR}} (Syria) to {{fb|SYR|revolution}} (Syria) in pages such as 2027 AFC Asian Cup qualification – third round? FIFA is still using the two-star flag on their website (similarly to FIFA not using the Taliban flag). If Afghanistan (in the same aforementioned qualification article) has the "old" flag, surely Syria should too. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:08, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Agree, unless we know from sources that Syria want to use the "new government flag", it's WP:OR to change the flag. This is similar to Afghanistan, where most sports teams compete under the 2013 flag rather than the 2021 Taliban flag. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Probably worth noting that the Syrian Football Association has updated their logo and kit colors to reflect the green revolutionary flag. (source: https://www.reuters.com/sports/soccer/syrian-soccer-federation-changes-kit-colour-assad-toppled-2024-12-08/#:~:text=Dec%209%20(Reuters)%20%2D%20Rebels,logo%20from%20red%20to%20green.)

I would take that as credible knowledge that the sports teams are competing under the "new" flag moving forward, but will defer to the general consensus. gingerlines (talk) 15:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

That seems clear to me that their national football team are actually using the new flag and so therefore so should we. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

In case we decide to use the new flag, we should update {{fb|SYR}} to display Syria, without having to add the "revolution" parameter. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:47, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it should be the default. Any idea how we do this? GiantSnowman 19:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Change the flag variant data ({{Country data Syria}}), but before doing so this all the historic uses of the template should be changed. Spike 'em (talk) 19:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

And there are discussions there to switch to the new flag as default, but it needs the groundwork to switch previous usage to the old flag. Spike 'em (talk) 12:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

All historical articles first should be updated with the 1980 flag variant. However, as mentioned above, Afghanistan still compete under their previous flag. Therefore, wouldn't it be better to wait a few months until it is clear what flag they will compete under in their next international matches? S.A. Julio (talk) 12:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)