Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Listing of other derbies in lead

I think the listing of other derbies in the article’s leading section is excessive and unnecessary; none of the other Wikipedia articles about major football rivalries do this, and it would make more sense to insert a link to the list of football rivalries. If total removal isn’t a possibility, I believe condensing the list to just two or three examples would make sense. Also, the inclusion of the Derby d’Italia and Der Klassiker is questionable as clubs from both of these are involved in other rivalries that are arguably more fierce and prestigious (Inter in the Derby della Madonnina with AC Milan and Dortmund in the Rivierderby with Schalke). KevindeAmsterdam (talk) 15:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Checking back the edit history, it was added due to series of disputes over "biggest rivalry" and other claims about largest in UK etc. The original list added was:

It is considered to be one of the biggest rivalries in world and European football along with the Superclásico in South America, El Clásico in Spain, and Derby della Madonnina in Italy, and is considered the most famous fixture in British football with the Old Firm.

At some point other self promoters have added Der Klassiker and changed Madonnina to d'Italia. The original list was intended to give context for the claim of "one of the biggest rivalries". More worrying is that the Telegraph article appears to have been changed by The Telegraph since it was originally added. It was sourced in 2015, but has been rewritten in 2016. It used to be individual pages. Now is a single page. Koncorde (talk) 16:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

That’s understandable, although I do think removal of Derby d’Italia and Der Klassiker from the list is justifiable given the context of how they were added. Also, we may need to find a better source than the Telegraph article if we want to keep the list at all. KevindeAmsterdam (talk) 19:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree it's excessive which is why I removed it, but it was immediately readded. The thing about it being considered (a very weaselly phrase) the most famous fixture in English football is also I would suggest an assertion which it's impossible to provide with a reliable source as it's so subjective. Haldraper (talk)

That isn't true. There are many different sources that outline the largest / biggest / most famous / most intense etc. However there was a reason that the original wording used "British" and the word "famous". The sourcing backed it up at that time.

In addition a pretty quick search for articles would bring up any number of results discussing biggest game / rivalry or variations thereof etc.[1][2][3][4] Koncorde (talk) 09:44, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Those articles back up my point. They're opinion pieces, some of them from blogs. No one is disputing that this fixture is one of the biggest rivalries in English football, but to say it's also the most famous fixture is incapable of being supported by a reliable source, which is why I guess the weaselly phrase "it is considered" was used. Haldraper (talk)

Can you point at any article to refute the statement? [5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33] etc. etc. I can find one that says Arsenal vs Utd was temporarily the biggest between 97 and 2005, and a few (Marca being one) talking about Liverpool vs City the last few seasons. Koncorde (talk) 08:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Koncorde, I don't have to "refute the statement", you have to provide a reliable source for it (which as it's just personal opinion rather than fact, "most famous" being inherently subjective, is going to be impossible for anyone to do). Haldraper (talk)

I just provided 33. Refute the statement. Koncorde (talk) 08:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear from the sources that Man Utd v Liverpool is the biggest rivalry in England, and by extension the most famous. I don't see how this is a controversial statement. – PeeJay 17:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

You both need to read WP:SYN, about not combining what you think different sources imply to produce a conclusion that amounts to original research. Haldraper (talk)

At this point I am really concerned that you don't know what WP:SYNTH policy is or haven't looked at the sources provided.

The Guardian states: "Even before the Suarez-Evra conflagration last October, which led to all this, the biggest fixture in English football regularly generated more heat than light."

Yahoo states: "The biggest fixture in world football has certainly lived up to its billing these past three decades."

Reuters: "The clash promises to be a cracker, even if played in a silent stadium rather than the cauldron of noise which is normally the case for the biggest fixture in English football."

The Standard: "Often hyped as the biggest fixture in English football"

MEN "The two may not monopolise top of the league as they did in previous decades, but Manchester United v Liverpool remains the biggest fixture in English football."

Belfast Telegraph quote Ryan Giggs: "probably the most famous fixture in English football"

Talksport: "Liverpool vs Manchester United is recognised as the biggest fixture in English football"

ManUtd.com quote David De Gear: "It’s the biggest game in England"

Liverpool Echo: "Once again, the biggest fixture in English football will be presented to the masses as Liverpool go head-to-head with Manchester United on Sunday afternoon." and "The biggest fixture in English football has a lot riding on it"

Washington Post (AP): "It would add further spice to Sunday’s meeting at Anfield between Liverpool and United in what is traditionally the biggest fixture in English soccer."

Sporting Life: "It is arguably the biggest fixture in the football calendar between England's two most successful clubs"

Extra.ie: "English football’s biggest game never felt more Irish than it did in the 1985-86 season."

PaddyPower: "The biggest fixture in English football takes on an added dimension this Sunday"

Betfair: "It's the biggest fixture in English football as Manchester United take on Liverpool."

FirstPost: "Alex Ferguson once described Liverpool versus Manchester United as the biggest fixture in club football."

Quest: "Arguably the biggest fixture in English football takes place this weekend"

And so on and so forth. There is occasional nuance in the statement, but there are just as many bare naked statements. Koncorde (talk) 09:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Some of those sources are a bit weaselly (arguably, recognised as, quoting players' and managers' personal opinions) and others aren't reliable, but that's beside the point because the text talked about it being the most famous fixture in English football, which is inherently subjective. Haldraper (talk)

"Biggest" and "most famous" are practically synonymous in this context. – PeeJay 19:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The current text, one of the biggest rivalries in world football, is fine, not sure why we need to add anything to that. Haldraper (talk)

Because it doesn't deal with where the rivalry ranks domestically. It could be one of the biggest in the world and still not be the biggest in its own country, which is why that should be specified. – PeeJay 21:07, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

It used to be sourced to The Telegraph but they removed the pre-amble article which covered the phrasing it seems when they re-wrote or re-published in 2016 (it used to be a multi-page gallery). Koncorde (talk) 21:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Just some more wording specific sources.[34][35][36][37][38][39] Found another Telegraph article using the wording. [40] Koncorde (talk) 21:37, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The problem with the word "famous" is that it means known by a lot of people. I'm not convinced that there are more people in England who know of the Liverpool-Manchester rivalry as opposed to each team's Derbies or other Derbies like the North London and North East ones, and would want to see some hard data that that is the case rather than a bit of journalistic hyperbole in a newspaper article. Haldraper (talk)

That sounds awfully like your opinion matters more than every reliable source. That isn't how this works. Now we have given you a few days now or whatever to give this up and self revert, suggest alternative wording etc, but it is pretty clear you are going to ignore sources. Koncorde (talk) 09:26, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Talk about splitting hairs! Why are you focused on how many people know the North West derby in England? What about the rest of the world? If I ask someone to name the most famous football rivalry in England, what difference does it make where they're from? – PeeJay 14:48, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

For the record, the "most famous fixture in football" is most often described as the World Cup Final, or the Barce vs Real derby, and the Old Firm is held up as the most famous in Scotland which is why we don't say it is the most famous in Britain, or Europe, or the World. Koncorde (talk) 14:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

"That sounds awfully like your opinion matters more than every reliable source. That isn't how this works."

Not at all. What I'm saying that no one has come up with a reliable source to back up the claim that it is the most famous fixture in English football (unsurprisingly as I don't really see how you can measure that accurately), only journalists, players and managers asserting that in their opinion it is. Haldraper (talk)

How else would you assess something's fame? Fame is a measure of how well known something is, and how would we know well known something is without testimony from pundits, players and managers? – PeeJay 16:41, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Easy: public polling. YouGov and similar organisations do it all the time to find out how well known brands, TV shows etc. are by the public. I doubt it exists for this though, which is probably why you're struggling to back it up with actual evidence from a reliable source and merely quoting individuals' opinions. Haldraper (talk)

How is this any different? Polling organisations do exactly the same thing, albeit on a more formal and official basis. You can belittle the sources all you like, but you're wrong on this one Henry. – PeeJay 17:03, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Old Trafford 5-0

I have made this change to the article, effectively reducing the Old Trafford 5-0 Liverpool win to a paragraph in the 'other notable games' section in line with the other games mentioned. My reasoning behind this is that all the citations given for the paragraph were from one twitter account. Furthermore, I dont believe the citations demonstrate lasting signficance of this match to elevate its notability above the others in the 'other notable games section'. I'm sure it was covered extensively (as the others were) but it would need a reference like the one above in the Independent 'x classic Liverpool FC-Manchester United' ie. a citation that its notability is that much greater than the others in that section Vanteloop (talk) 00:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion on Sheriff of London Charity Shield

Guys, instead of going on an editing war , lets try and reach a consensus and agreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HMD 1315 (talk • contribs) 16:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay so let me start with the proceedings. After an initial google search of the trophy comparison between Manchester United & Liverpool, the first two web articles that popped up was these two https://www.goal.com/en-za/news/liverpool-man-utd-which-uk-club-have-won-most-major-trophies/eq9664p329p619x4ae81f2xff https://themoney.co/en/who-has-won-more-trophies-man-utd-or-liverpool-3/. These two articles show that the trophy comparison is 66-64 to Manchester United. The 2 trophies excluded from Liverpool's tally was the Football League Super Cup ( Screen sport super cup) & the Sheriff of London Charity Shield. With that said, we can assume that these sites could be subjective, so the best source of information is to look at the official page of Liverpool Football club. Upon inspection , I did notice that the Football League Super Cup was included under the competitive honours of Liverpool Football Club, in their trophy cabinet on their website. So that made sense to include that honour in this article.

However, I feel that the Sheriff of London Charity shield is a bit of a sketchy topic. I do understand and respect that it was the predecessor of the FA Community Shield. But Liverpool themselves do not count that honour in their trophy cabinet. It is not included in the trophy cabinet of competitive honours, neither is it mentioned under the club's history , in the club's website. I feel if Liverpool as a Football Club do not officially count that trophy as a competitive honour , it is futile for us to argue about it. If Liverpool did include this trophy on their trophy cabinet, then for sure I would have agreed for the tally to be 66-66. The most authentic source of information is the Liverpool website , so like it is not mentioned on their website, that is why I refute this trophy.

Furthermore, sometime back on this exact talk page, there was a discussion about not including this trophy. Some consensus was taken and it stood for years. I have noticed that only at the start of this year(2 months ago) that the talks of this trophy has come up again and it was included in the tally. When I checked last year, this trophy was not included. So I feel we can logically come to a consensus again, considering there was a consensus reached before to exclude this trophy :)

Link to Liverpool's official trophy cabinet : https://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/honours

The Sheriff of London Charity Shield was the legitimate predecessor to the current FA Community Shield. The latter formed after the Amateur Football Association split from the FA. Similar thing happened with the top flight. In 1992, the clubs from the former first division decided to split-break away from the FL, thereby forming a brand new competition which became the new top flight, ie the Premier League. My argument is that, if we decide to ignore the SoL Charity Shield, using the same logic we should ignore the former First Division, as the predecessor to the current PL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.203.124.28 (talk) 19:27, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I totally get what you are saying and respect that and completely agree. But my question still stands , why doesn't Liverpool FC take the same understanding like you just expressed and count this trophy. The fact that the official Liverpool website doesn't acknowledge this trophy , puts the inclusion of this trophy in doubt HMD 1315 (talk) 21:26, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

We're not excluding the SoL because it is a precursor, it is excluded because it isn't included in reliable sources when reliable sources discuss the rivalry. Even the Super Cup and the Charity Shield are omitted in some cases, as are the World Club Cups and other intermittent competitions held throughout history.

This article is not an exhaustive comparison of every single trophy each side has in their cabinet. It is a summary of the Rivalry, and the criteria by which the rivalry is predominately measured.

This doesn't mean the SoL wasn't won by Liverpool, it just means for the purposes of this article it isn't relevant per the reliable sources. Koncorde (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Liverpool v Manchester United rivalry

This article is incorrect. Liverpool won the 1906 Sherriff of London Charity Shield, and this needs to be included, as I had done yesterday. The Trophy tally is now level at 66 apiece.

If you access the trophies won by club on Wikipedia, you will see that Wikipedia themselves now have the two clubs level onn 66 trophies apiece.

Please amend this article. BRACK66 (talk) 13:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi there , as mentioned multiple times. A simple google search of "LFC honours" will show you all the competitive honours won by Liverpool Football club.

The top 2 search results are as follows :

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/history/honours : The official Liverpool website does not acknowledge the SoL charity shield as a competitive honour. There is no mention of this trophy under the trophy cabinet, neither is this trophy mentioned in the club history. This is the most authentic source of information one can find regarding Liverpool, and this trophy is not mentioned.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/clubinfo/honours/ : A Liverpool fan page even makes no mention of the SoL charity shield.

If Liverpool don't acknowledge this trophy, unfortunately it cannot be included even if other sources mention it. Thank you --HMD 1315 (talk) 15:50, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The text below is the email response from Liverpool Football Club. I could not upload the actual screenshot image of the email as Wikipedia does not allow me to upload such images. However if people want to contact me for the actual email, please privately contact me your email address and I will forward you the email and send a screenshot. I hope this puts an end to this edit war. You guys are more than welcome to contact the official email address of Liverpool(mentioned below), just as I did. You can even use my reference number , to re-query and see that the email I sent was legitimate. I did not spend my free time to go to this efforts for nothing : )

RE: Sheriff of London Charity Shield enquiry [Case ref: 3ERFnN, Message ref: dkelRB]

contactus@liverpoolfc.com

Attachments 17:03 (1 hour ago)

to me

Dear ******,

Thank you for contacting Liverpool Football Club.

This fixture was considered a friendly competition for charity and as it no longer exists it was never recognised as a major trophy or as an established competition in the way that the Community shield is.

We thank you for your support.

Kind regards

Matt

Fan Services Liverpool Football Club From: ****** ****** ****** <*******> Date: Wednesday, 2 March 2022, 19:14:17 To: <contactus@liverpoolfc.com> Subject: Sheriff of London Charity Shield enquiry [Case ref: 3ERFnN, Message ref: dkelRB]

Contact enquiry About you Name ******* Email address ******* Phone ******* Address Date of birth

Your enquiry Enquiry type Fan Services > Club Information Queue email address Subject Sheriff of London Charity Shield enquiry Your message Hi there. I would just like to know why the Sheriff of London Charity Shield won in 1906, is not counted under the competitive honours in this website, neither is it mentioned? Reference number(s) : 3ERFnN --HMD 1315 (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Critically the "66 apiece" is only based on the interpretation of relatively pointless inclusion on a few wikipedia pages for the express purpose of trying to get one up on the rivalry. It specifically ignores the fact most such early competitions are ignored or excluded from comparisons of trophy totals as being informal, invitational, or having since become redundant or competed for only on an amateur or reserve basis. Fine examples of this is the Liverpool Senior Cup, Lancashire Senior Cup, Manchester Senior Cup, or previously senior leagues Southern Football League or Western Football League (among myriad others). However you will struggle to find any reliable sources that list those as competitive trophies, and even fewer still that will use them as metrics for comparing rivalries. As such they are excluded from almost every such list. So why is the Sheriff of London trophy so coveted?

Lets take for instance Newcastle Utd. Their wiki page includes the SoL trophy in their honours, but their official Honours Page on their website excludes it. However their official honours page includes the Texaco Cup, among a variety of other runner up nods and so on... so Newcastle rank it beneath even qualifying for the UEFA Cup.

Liverpool FC meanwhile mention 4 FA Youth Cups while making no mention of the SoL.

So why are we obsessed with its arbitrary inclusion if no reliable sources are interested, and the clubs aren't either? Koncorde (talk) 22:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 May 2022

Change trophy counts following Liverpool’s FA cup win 2022. Most clubs now on 66. Jamirowikee (talk) 18:54, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done - this apparently is a content dispute, see the section above to provide more input. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:08, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 May 2022 (2)

Please update to reflect FA Cup won by Liverpool in 21/22.

Also, how on earth can the Charity Shield be counted? Sad that United rely on this. 81.101.145.100 (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done see two sections up, there is a content dispute on this that needs to be settled by discussion. — xaosflux ^Talk 21:18, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 May 2022

Liverpool have won 67 trophies compared to Manchester United 66. Please correct this. 82.20.42.125 (talk) 06:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done read above, and also you would need a reliable source reference. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:18, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 15 May 2022 (2)

FA Cup Kcyster (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

It will be added when the page is unprotected. – PeeJay 16:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Liverpool's tally needs updating plus Sheriff of London Charity Shield

Text says "Manchester United lead in terms of total trophies won, with 66 to Liverpool's 65"

Liverpool now have 66 after their FA cup win yesterday.

If the Sheriff of London Charity Shield is to be included, then Liverpool's total should read 67.

Sheriff of London Charity Shield was an FA sanctioned competition that evolved into the current FA Community Shield. They're more or less one in the same, so i can't see how the current FA Community Shield can be included in the stats but not its predecessor, the Sheriff of London Charity Shield. It's historically the same trophy. Would we exclude e.g. the old First Division from the stats as the predecessor of the current Premier League? Or would we exclude e.g. the old European cup as the predecessor of the current Champions League? I don't think so. IMO, either we exclude BOTH the current FA Community Shield and the Sheriff of London Charity Shield from the stats, or we include BOTH.Koppite1 (talk) 04:48, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for the status of the Sheriff of London Shield? Previous discussions have shown it to be more minor than you’re claiming, and even Liverpool themselves don’t include it in their list of honours. – PeeJay 08:53, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Sheriff of London Charity Shield is the predecessor of the Community Shield. [41] So they are both on the same level. From this alone, I agree with the poster that both have to be counted or not counted together. It doesn't matter whether Liverpool acknowledge this competition. Independent sources should acknowledge it not the subject itself. Ae245 (talk) 09:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Independent sources do not acknowledge it, and there's the issue. There were a lot of competitions in the formative years of the football league that died out or didn't progress, or were ultimately changed into another thing. Not least competitions such as the Football Alliance and Lancashire League were just as relevant as The Football League at the time who excluded all but 12 teams, but nobody makes the argument those formative years trophies should count towards their totals today even though they were the most senior competitions they could compete in. Koncorde (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

SoL for me needs removing from the other trophy count and including with non-competitive victories. The current justification of its inclusion because the FA was involved is incredibly weak OR and SYNTH.

The inconsistency with how certain reliable sources treat trophies causes needless headaches. Koncorde (talk) 09:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

There are numerous sources explaining that it's the earlier version of the current FA Community Shield. So, BOTH need removing or including because they are historically the same trophy.-regardless of how major or minor one regards it. Koppite1 (talk) 09:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Being a precursor doesn't mean it confers any significance. That the SoL continued in an altered form all but debunks the idea that they are contiguous competitions, rather than the FA deciding beating up on Amateurs was boring for the viewer. There are also plenty of other such competitions included / excluded depending on the whims of the reliable sources. The sources also do not make an argument of the relevance of the SoL, and modern sources universaly exclude it from lists. Koncorde (talk) 11:16, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. The relationship between the SoL Shield and the Community Shield is even more tenuous than the relationship between the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and the Europa League. – PeeJay 12:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Using your logic, we shouldn't include e.g. the old European Cup in the stats because the Champions League continued in an altered form. See where we are going with this? You have to be consistent with your logic. As for the jibe about amateurs, the first Charity Shield that Man U won in 1908 was against a semi- amateurs. I feel you are twisting yourself up in knots about this. Either we include the FA Community Shield in ALL it's forms, past and present--or we exclude it in ALL it's forms. And no, the link isn't tenuous.The history of the FA Community Shield Koppite1 (talk) 12:31, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

That link doesn't prove what you think it proves. The FA themselves claim the Community Shield started in 1908. That was the first Charity Shield. It took inspiration from the SoL Shield, but it's not the same competition. – PeeJay 12:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

"The FA Charity Shield, as it was formerly known, was first played for in 1908. It evolved from the “Sheriff of London Shield” fixture that had been played annually between a leading professional club and a leading amateur club."

It really couldn't be clearer. It's the same competition evolved over time. It's historically the same competition. Include both or exclude both. Koppite1 (talk) 12:40, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

If it was the same competition, why aren't the SoL Shield winners counted among the winners of the Community Shield? It's not the same competition at all. I feel like you're trying to argue that it's a similar situation to the European Cup and the Champions League, which was really just a rebranding. This was an entirely different competition, like the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and the UEFA Cup. Besides, Liverpool themselves don't even count the SoL Shield among their honours (see here). – PeeJay 12:42, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I feel you are trying to ignore the history of the FA Community Shield, how and where it started. It started as a competition between professionals and amateurs and continued as such until 1921 when it was first contested between 2 professional sides for the first time. So that means any of Man U's Community Shield won prior to1921 (and included in their stats) was won against semi-amateurs.

Also, the European Cup and Champions League wasn't just a case of rebranding. There was a major change in format. In the old European Cup form, ONLY League Champions could compete and it was a straight knock-out contest. In the Champions League, sometimes up to 4 runners up are also allowed to compete and there are various group stages. Very different from the original European Cup format, but the old European Cup stats are included because it's the predecessor to what has evolved into the current Champions League. Koppite1 (talk) 13:02, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The Champions League was a major rebranding, but it was still a rebranding. And you know runners-up weren't allowed into the Champions League until 1997, right? Also, the last European Cup season in 1991-92 even had a group stage, so it very much was just a rebranding from the European Cup to the Champions League.

But again, that's beside the point because the European Cup and Champions League are considered the same competition, starting in 1955. The Charity Shield started in 1908, and is not considered the same competition as the SoL Shield, in the same way that the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup is not considered the same competition as the UEFA Cup. They may be spiritual successors, but they are not the same competition.

And again, Liverpool do not list the SoL Shield among their honours. – PeeJay 13:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Champions league was a change in format to what had gone on before, so no, it wasn't pure rebranding. There was an actual evolution into what we know to day, Doesn't matter if Lpool list it or not, it's still a legit cup won under FA sanctioned rules and it was the predecessor to the current Community shield. So BOTH need to be included, or neither Koppite1 (talk) 13:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

You're making things up now. Even friendly tournaments like the Emirates Cup are played under "FA-sanctioned rules" (whatever that means), but no one would include that competition in a team's list of honours. And no, there was no change in format from the 1991-92 European Cup to the 1992-93 UEFA Champions League; both had a first round, a second round, an eight-team group stage and a final, both allowed only national champions to compete. You have no leg to stand on here. – PeeJay 13:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The Emirate Cup isn't the predecessor to any current cup so your point is moot. And there really wasn't much change in the format of the Sherrif /Community Shield 1908-1920-still professionals v semi amateurs. The point is, you can't pick and choose which predecessors to include or not to include. Koppite1 (talk) 14:00, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not picking and choosing, I'm reflecting the way reliable sources consider the two competitions. The FA does not consider the two competitions to be the same, Liverpool don't list the SoL Shield among their Charity/Community Shield victories, it's not even the same trophy! – PeeJay 14:03, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The FA state the two evolve from one another. Therefore, it's the predecessor. Koppite1 (talk) 14:05, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

If they consider them to be the same competition, why do they say in the very first sentence of that page, "The FA Charity Shield [...] was first played for in 1908"? I'll give you a clue: it's because they're not the same competition. – PeeJay 14:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

They clearly state one evolved from the other. Both predecessor and current form should either be included or excluded, imo. We are are going round in circles. Perhaps this needs to be referred for inputs. Koppite1 (talk) 15:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

We're going around in circles because you're refusing to accept the truth in order to push your pro-Liverpool agenda. Have a good day. – PeeJay 15:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Take a look in the mirror Koppite1 (talk) 19:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Hilarious, good joke. You clearly can't see the truth here, you're so blinded by an obsession with Liverpool being the best. No one is denying they won the SoL Shield, but to consider it among the major honours of any club is truly laughable. – PeeJay 19:59, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The challenge is really easy Koppite. Provide a single reliable source that includes the SoL in a definitive list of trophies won by both teams. Koncorde (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Amazing, ten whole days later and still nothing from our mutual friend! – PeeJay 16:30, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Evolved from, simply means that the FA took the idea for the FA Charity shield from the London Shield. The two competitions are counted differently. Govvy (talk) 10:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Sheriff of London Charity Shield

Should the SoL Charity Shield be added to Liverpool's total, giving them 67? (United fan!!) BRACK66 (talk) 00:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

No. See multiple prior discussions. The SoL is never mentioned by any reliable sources when discussing trophy totals. In many cases other trophies are excluded also. The 66 remains reliably sourced to those articles that have compared trophy totals and basic maths. Koncorde (talk) 08:32, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Both teams have won a lot of trophies other than the ones included in this article, but we don't include them all because the line has to be drawn somewhere. United used to include the Manchester Senior Cup and Lancashire Senior Cup in their list of honours, particularly from the period when those competitions were contested by the first team and not the reserves, but they don't any more, so we don't include those here. – PeeJay 12:28, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

"Biggest fixture in English football"

This was historically sourced to some articles that seem to have been removed during prior edits, and have become victims of linkrot. As such, following a recent prompt, I sought out additional reliable sources explicitly to cover the requirement. This wasn't hard because it's a routine matter of discussion and there are others using variations of the phrase (I used simply the word for word example). All evaluations of rivalries and otherwise are "subjective" and sourced to the articles included, so the subsequent revert by Amakuru is redundant and very odd given the users experience. If we want to change the wording to "one of the biggest fixtures" or similar qualification then we would need to present that POV as a point of discussion in reliable sources, but given the wealth of discussion about the fixture in reliable sources this is presently indisputable accurate representation. Koncorde (talk) 20:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Stephen Pears

I'd always been vaguely aware of this goalkeeper who made a single appearance for United in the 1980s, but I didn't know that he also had a spell at Liverpool (August 1995 - June 1996). He never played a first-team game for them, but was a full squad member (number 27) and I assume third choice (after James and Warner). Can/should he be added to the list, or does not having played a first-team match for Liverpool disqualify him? There are so few players who have signed for both clubs that I think he warrants inclusion in some form - perhaps a mention in the text if not the table - but I wanted to see if anyone disagrees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiresman (talk • contribs) 23:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

He may be worth a mention for having been owned by both clubs as it's still relatively niche. And he was second choice for Liverpool after injury to No.2 Michael Stensgaard. Warner was (at least on paper) no.3 that season. Koncorde (talk) 13:06, 2 February 2023 (UTC)