Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons

"Mos:Flag" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Mos:Flag has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 25 § Mos:Flag until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 21:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Images in navboxes

Would anyone like to comment about the appropriateness of images in navboxes at Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Images in navboxes (again)? --woodensuperman 07:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

MOS:SOVEREIGNFLAG for Hong Kong

For Hong Kong, should China or Hong Kong be used? (example of context: List of tallest buildings) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

The column says "Country", so people might be funny about it either way. What I would do for maximum flexibility and minimum clutter is change the column to "Polity" and use Hong Kong. Remsense诉 11:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

What am I missing about MOS:SPORTFLAG?

Many articles with national flags next to the names of sports participants appear to contravene MOS:SPORTFLAG, which states that sports participants should not have national flags next to their names unless they are competing as part of their national team (... flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality. Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that they correspond to representative nationality, not legal nationality, if any confusion might arise.). Examples: 1983 All Japan Endurance Championship (and many other motorsport race articles), 2023 Vuelta a España (and many other cycling race articles), WTA Elite Trophy (and many other tennis articles). Maybe I misunderstand that part of MOS, but its words look pretty clear to me. What am I missing? – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

What am I missing?: That either the MOS or the articles need updating. —Bagumba (talk) 18:58, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length previously - e.g. Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons/Archive 11 and Wikipedia talk:Manual_of_Style/Icons/Archive_14 - the MOS:SPORTSFLAG is not followed in a variety of sports including Formula 1, cycling, golf and others - where people compete in a non-representative way. Regarding Formula 1, it was previously determined that the racers actually do represent their country! The 2014 RfC concluded "A clear consensus that flags may be used to represent sporting nationality, though the discussion did not significantly address the circumstances of their use." Maybe the MOS needs to change to reflect the established consensus for these sports. Turini2 (talk) 11:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

KevinMCE proposed in 2011 rephrasing the acceptable use section of MOSFLAG to Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject is widely perceived to represent that country, government, or nationality – such as military units, government officials, national sports teams or athletes in international events in which nationality is routinely reported in the results service in WP:Reliable sources. Turini2 (talk) 11:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. I have clarified the guidance. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we use flags for footballers (soccer players) as well in certain contexts. GiantSnowman 15:30, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don’t think that was needed. It was never limited to national teams. It said “flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality”. You clearly missed the “or representative nationality” part.Tvx1 23:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Flag icons are good indication of quality of the article to experienced editors. Soon as you see them you assume work needs to be done to improve the article. Moxy🍁 00:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

That’s nothing but your opinion.Tvx1 05:51, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

... indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality ...: I actually read or here to mean a synonym i.e. "national squad/team" and "representative nationality" being one in the same, as opposed to or being an alternative. "National squad/team" and "representative nationality", already being so closely related, would be clearer with different wording than the ambiguous or, in this case, if that was the intent. —Bagumba (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The intent was indeed not for them to be the same. Maybe it should be tweaked then. Tvx1 05:50, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

"Representative nationality" clearly means that the person is representing their country at the sporting event. They may not be part of a national team, but they are competing on behalf of their country rather than on behalf of a team of some kind. In the case of the cycling events like the Tour de France, the riders are not representing their countries, which is why I added the new guidance (that apparently should have been added many years ago). – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Examples include golf and tennis, where in the Ryder Cup and Davis Cup the players represent their countries, whilst in the Masters Tournament and Wimbledon Championships they compete as individuals. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but they still are seen as representatives of their countries and have a representative nationality which we acknowledge in those articles.Tvx1 21:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Nikkimaria who reverted the change. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the existing wording needs to be broadened as significantly as was proposed, though open to seeing potential clarification drafts if others feel that is necessary. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2024 (UTC)