7804j

Translating from other language Wikipedias

Hello! I noticed that you recently created Box turtle. This appears to be a close translation of es:tortuga de caja, which is a featured article on the Spanish Wikipedia. Thank you for putting in the work to translating the article. However, please note that translations require attribution under the terms of Wikipedia's license. When translating from one Wikipedia project to another, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've inserted translated content, disclosing the copying and linking to the source page, e.g., translated content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if the close translation is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{Translated page}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. Please provide attribution for this duplication if it has not already been supplied by another editor, and if you have translated or copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, you should provide attribution for that also. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I found the same issue when reviewing Kassite dynasty which was translated by an OKA editor, Racnela21. The OKA instructions list attribution as a necessary step but I reckon that OKA work needs a stronger and more formal checklist to ensure that such things are actually done. The article in that case was featured (FA) on the source wikipedia and such articles tend to be quite large and complex. There's lots to be done with such a big article and, for example, no categories have been added to the translated version yet. A checklist would help catch such omissions and so the work would go more smoothly. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:17, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Andrew, that's actually a good idea! I have created a checklist for our translators and will include it in our processes.7804j (talk) 18:58, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

FYI, I worked with Racnela21 to fix up the attribution for Kassite dynasty and have added some missing top-and-tail elements like a short description and categories. So, that article is just about done. The one thing that is still missing is a template on the talk page which explains that this was an OKA achievement. Do you have something like that? I'm an event coordinator and so attend many editathons and they usually recommend leaving an event template on the talk page of the articles which were created and improved. The Women in Red project, for example, has a lot of these, such as {{WIR-29}}. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the ideas! The short description was missing from our workflow, so I have added it. The categories were already in the list, but were missed by Racnela21 -- I will put in place a process for more close check of the work of new translators so that these things are less likely to be missed in the future.

We didn't have a template, so I created an initial draft here and we will be adding it to talk pages. At the moment, it is a very simple one as I am not yet familiar with the more advanced features of templates, but this is something that we could look into improving in the future once I have more volunteers supporting me in running OKA.7804j (talk) 19:18, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome. Your workflow and documentation seems to be coming along nicely but you might like to see what others have done before. Looking around, I find that there's a WikiProject Intertranswiki. I'm not familiar with its history but it still seems active. Maybe the OKA could affiliate as a task force of that project? Andrew🐉(talk) 16:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

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Copying licensed material requires attribution (second request)

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Legal topics

Moved from User talk:Racnela21 § Brazilian legal topics in need of translation

7804j, thanks for your OKA project to improve/expand Wikipedia's coverage of foreign language Wikipedia topics. I am involved with a similar, medium-to-long-term project to improve Wikipedia's coverage of legal topics at Wikipedia. The list of articles that need to be created for this project is long (multiple years, probably). I have started with criminal law in France and in Brazil. Nav boxes show the possible range for expansion for creation of new articles in the red links at ({{French criminal law}} and {{Brazilian criminal law}}. These are just two of the 193 nations in the UN, and criminal law is just one of the types of law in France and Brazil, others being: Constitutional, Administrative, Family & Succession, Property, Contra○t, Civil, Corporate, Taxation, Labor, and Civil procedure and arbitration., with variations according to country. So an estimate of notable topics for this project is 193 x 10 or 1930, not all of which exist as articles (most do not) for your translation project. But this may give you an idea of what topics are available to be created or translated, and I will be creating more of them as we go. Adding Elinruby. Mathglot (talk) 09:13, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the context!

So our team has already created several thousand articles on Wikipedia through translation (most of them very long) since I created OKA 1.5 years ago. So 2000 more articles to translate is not a problem. I actually feel that legal topics are very important and underrepresented in WP -- I have myself created a lot of stubs about Swiss federal laws to fill some of that gap for my own country.

Perhaps the easiest way to collaborate would be if I give you edit access to our work tracker at oka.wiki/tracker. You could then add all articles that you believe are ready for translation, mark them as "Priority 2", and one of our translators would pick them up at some point.

We have 15 full time translators covering EN, FR, PT, ES, RU, IT, DE, PL, AR languages at the moment. We're currently only publishing from these languages into EN WP, and from EN into ES and PT WP.

At the moment we focus on translation -- we may expand in the future in creating articles from scratch, if we get more funding

Let me know what you think

7804j (talk) 09:59, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding long translations: my understanding is that you are pretty much creating a bin of foreign article titles, and letting your members rummage through, pick what they want, and at that point, it's up to them to do what they want, while following Wikipedia policies and guidelines as would be required for any new, translated article, is that it? Or, does OKA pick them and assign them, or something else? In particular, I'm concerned whether there is a requirement or even a suggestion to translate the entire article, once an article has been decided upon by a given translator.

I hope that the answer to the latter is 'no'. A lot of foreign Wikipedias are lax about basic policies and guidelines that would get their articles deleted or decimated if published here, and I'm concerned that if we translate rubbish, we increase the amount of rubbish on en-wiki, and obviously that would not be good. Another problem, could be copying a poor overall article section structure into en-wiki.

Let's stipulate for a moment that all the foreign articles are model articles: clearly notable, and perfectly sourced. Even if that were the case, translating the whole article (especially if it's long) may not be the best strategy for OKA imho, or at least, for Wikipedia (hopefully there's no conflict there). Creating a new article where one didn't exist before is one of the most difficult tasks at Wikipedia, doubly or triply so in the case of a translation. People who know how to do that (i.e., all your members, presumably) are a scarce resource. I question whether we need/should ask them to translate entire articles. Once a notable, well-translated and -sourced stub is in place in English, the remaining task of expanding it is far easier—either by monolinguals doing it the regular way, or by translators who can just contribute a section or two of translated content here and there, if they wish to. That approach would open up these articles to a larger pool of editors who can handle the much easier expansion task.

So in my opinion, the best use of OKA from the point of view of Wikipedia, would be to maximize throughput of new translated articles, at the expense of fully-translated articles, by creating a shortish stub (maybe a several paragraph lead, or a short lead plus a few shortish sections; for a BLP, that might mean a paragraph each on Early life, Career, and Works) and then leave the other 90% of it untranslated, and move on to the next one. Remember that some large percentage of readers never read past the lead of an article, anyway. So, I see that approach as optimizing your resources as well as maximizing benefit to Wikipedia's readers by quintupling the number of articles being created, in exchange for reducing the average length from, say, 30,000 bytes to 6,000. There is WP:NODEADLINE, and if the article topic merits expansion, it will be at some point. (And if it doesn't, then why waste your members' time, and pay for it in the bargain?)

One other thing: judging how to best organize a large topic (by that I mean, what sections and subsections to include and in what order and nesting levels) is yet another skill, which probably isn't required for your members but which some may have, anyway. Typically, the organization of a large article (foreign or not) has grown organically, rather than been thought out as a long treatment from the start. That is completely normal, given how Wikipedia operates. However, often the overall organization is severely lacking due to the horse-designed-by-committee problem, and rationalizing the overall structure of such an article (even without adding or subtracting any text) is very complex; I've done it several times, and it's a thankless task. However, when faced with translating a long article from a foreign source, we now have a golden opportunity: namely, to look at the whole topic, decide how it ought to be organized, start from a scaffolding consisting of nothing but the section/subsection headers, and go from there. (It can still grow organically from a reduced set of sections so you don't start out with 25 empty sections in the article, but at least with a full design in mind that can grow from a logical starting point and a progression strategy thought out in advance.) I think that to translate a long article, which I assume for most of your members means following the original section organization, is a gigantic missed opportunity. Worse, once the new structure is in place, the likelihood that it will ever be overhauled and recast into a more logical section organization is minimal. So, that is another reason not to translate whole, long articles—or at least, not until the whole topic has been analyzed, and the proper section organization determined.

And if they do decide to translate the whole thing for whatever reason, the scaffold is a great way to chop it up into manageable pieces that can be revisited whenever, almost without any context or memory of what came before. Furthermore, it lends itself very well to specialization and task-sharing, i.e., other translators of the same language dipping in to just handle a section or two here and there, or even multiple translators all at the same time, divvying up the sections in order to get one particular article released quickly, if there is ever a reason to do that. You could assign your translator-organizers, a more limited group, the task of building scaffolds and adding the proper {{find sources}} queries per section, and all your other translators the task of going through, picking out section chunks, and translating them.

 Courtesy link: Draft talk:Brazilian criminal justice/Expand sections

I am still developing and trying out different approaches for this, and one that has worked for me recently, is to build a kind of scaffold consisting of a proposed section organization of an imagined completed article, even if I don't plan to write the whole thing myself,, and save it as a subpage of whatever Draft I am working on. In the case of a translation where many of the sources can only be found by using the proper search terms, which may not be obvious for foreign keywords, I add {{Expand section}} templates below the headings and include the proper search terms right in the template so that anyone clicking it will be directed to the sources. (See here for an example of that. Note that this is strictly a scaffold, and is content-free; that comes later, and is in progress here.) Everything else being equal, English sources are preferred, and the find-sources can/should be in English where that makes sense. I may also include one or more of {{Main}}, {{Further}}, or {{Further ill}} at top of section, for those cases where there is already some information available about the subtopic that is worth linking to (and possibly copying from, when we get to expanding that section). Perhaps this is getting a bit far afield from what you view as your mission, but since you asked for feedback, and I have done a fair number of translations, these are my thoughts about it.

There is one meta-issue, namely, that of talk venue: this being a wiki, in order to encourage more participation, you might consider creating a WP:WikiProject if you don't already have one. These are places where like-minded contributors interested in a topic can congregate and share information about improving something at Wikipedia; they can be topic-oriented (WP:FRANCE, WP:ASTRONOMY, WP:WikiProject Ancient Rome) or platform- support- or other-oriented (WP:AFC, WP:RETENTION, WP:WikiProject Template, WP:PNT). You could certainly create something like WP:WikiProject OKA Translations or call it anything you wish. This discussion we are having here on your Talk page really shouldn't be here, because it is not about your behavior or contributions as an editor, it is about a project to improve Wikipedia, which is exactly what WP:WikiProjects are for. If you need help setting one up, lmk. Mathglot (talk) 02:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Your paid editing organization

I note you state you are the founder of "oka.wiki". I have looked through some of the editors from this, and they are not following the conflict of interest or paid editing requirements. Specifically, editors who are paid must declare that using {{paid}}, not with any freehand written statement, must declare the client (which, if they are a donor to your organization, must be disclosed as such), and COI editors must, to propose a new article, write a draft and request review by articles for creation, and make substantial edits to existing articles via the edit request process, not directly edit mainspace. You may not have known that, so I am not going to block anyone yet, but I will be keeping a close eye and will block anyone who fails to abide by these policies from today forward, so please communicate to the editors you pay that they must do those things. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi Seraphimbpade,

Thanks for pointing me to the paid tag -- I will ask all of our translators to use it immediately on their user page. It might take 1-2 days until everyone sees it and applies it to their user page (apologies if that's longer than ideal -- I am currently traveling in China where Wikipedia is banned, thus my connection is a bit patchy). At the moment, our editors disclose they are paid by OKA on their talk page, but without the template; we also disclose the full list of our paid editors on the list of paid editing companies.

While our editors receive a stipend, there is no conflict of interest per se as they are free to pick any topic they want. We provide them with a list of articles as suggestion, which is basically the list of all featured and good quality articles in other languages, but these are not selected following any kind of particular logic other than meeting wikipedia requirements (eg, having sufficient sources). Our website oka.wiki publishes the list of our donor, but as of now, the main donors are essentially myself (donating from my salary), my brother, and a couple of individuals making small contributions. We do not receive any donations from companies.

Could you point me to the guideline that indicates that all new articles from paid editing must go through AfC? I have seen that it is strongly recommended, but haven't seen any mention that it was mandatory. We publish over 2000 articles per year, so I would be concerned of overburdening the backlog of AfD if we were to submit every article. It would also be quite unmanageable for all edits to go through the edit request process given the high volume. 7804j (talk) 05:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The "occasional exception" in guidelines does not mean "wholesale ignore it". Paid editors go through AfC and edit requests, period. That's not negotiable. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 06:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Seraphimblade. This is a warning to you and every editor who works with you: Comply robustly with WP:PAID, use WP:AFC for all new artcles, and use the WP:ER edit request process for changes to existing articles. The only exception is reverting obvious vandalism, and be crystal clear in your edit summaries. Cullen328 (talk) 06:21, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

@Seraphimblade and Cullen328, for transparency, see also: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Intertranswiki#OKA translators blocked from creating new articles. --Rosiestep (talk) 21:25, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Your name is missing from the list

Hi 7804j. I noticed that the talkpage template for OKA articles links to: Wikipedia:List of paid editing companies#Open Knowledge Association (OKA). Here, there are links to OKA editors, but your username (and function: founder) seem to be missing. I'm wondering why. Thanks. --Rosiestep (talk) 21:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a good idea -- I've added myself. I saw that list more as a disclosure of the paid editors but it makes sense to also indicate the volunteers that are related to the project 7804j (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Markov Chain Edit

https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Markov_chain&diff=prev&oldid=929227907. Was searching for a quote of from this article. You deleted it describing the edit as "Removed some of the duplicated content and restructured lead". This is pretty reckless editing. Please control yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meef4H (talk • contribs) 18:14, May 10, 2024 (UTC)

The link you shared shows an edit where I removed the examples from Markov chain main article, in order to move them in a different article dedicated to the examples of markov chain. Did you refer to another edit? 7804j (talk) 01:57, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I think I have found the edit you are referring to. If you are referring to the removal of the source from Rozanov, this was intentional, because the sentence that it was applying to ("is a stochastic process that satisfies the Markov property") was removed. As a result, it didn't make sense to have an in-line reference for a sentence that is no longer there. I have added back that source now since it can still be a useful reference for other purposes, but my edit was far from being reckless. 7804j (talk) 02:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Real Life Barnstar
	I love your OKA idea/project/NGO. Please keep me updated about the related developments, and if you need any help. This is something WMF should be doing, but it has been mission creeped into irrelevant stuff :( Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:34, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Your guide for the translators

At [1] is very useful and I'd suggest wikifying it here, on en wiki. I am involved in translations myself, as a teacher who has his students translate stuff, and I have written some guides myself and I am aware of others, ex. User:TheLonelyPather/Essays/Guide for a translator. I am currently rewriting my guides for my students, but I noticed a section in your doc about recommended scripts. I recommend a few more - see User:Hanyangprofessor2/Instructions/1. In particular, some of the drafts by your translators I've noticed have links to disambigs that can be easily spotted with one of the gadgets. And I would recommend to add a recommendation or requirement to your section about linking related to using Template:Interlanguage links to link to articles that exist on other wikis, but not target ones. I recently started requiring my students to do this, see User:Hanyangprofessor2/Module/MoS (Assignment 6). Perhaps you'll find some other useful stuff in my guides (note they are right now being rewritten/renamed, so they are in flux - they are linked from User:Hanyangprofessor2 for now). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Piotrus!

I will look into these resources and see how we incorporate them into our workflow.

I'd also be keen to wikify our process, but the main issue so far is how to insert images. I believe that we can only include screenshots hosted on Wikimedia commons, but several of our screenshots are from 3rd party tools such as Clockify, so I believe the requirements would not be met 7804j (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm, fair use is not allowed in Wikipedia namespace, so that may be a problem. Could always have an image placeholder saying "this is a placeholder for an image available at the doc version of this document due to copyright issues" or such. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:40, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Barnstar for the Oops
		Thank you for the clarification and for fostering better communication among editors. We need more editors to follow your example. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 06:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Feedback at meta

Hello, 7804j. You have new messages at meta:Talk:OKA/Instructions for editors.
Message added Mathglot (talk) 20:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Polish articles to translate

I can give you a list here to review, mostly for Polish literature (with focus on sf/fantasy) themed articles of good quality that I and some others have recently written on pl wiki (I decided to write about Polish sf there as I feel more readers will care about this topic there than here, particularly as it mostly concerns works that have no translations to English yet and are unlikely to get them anytime soon - I mean, side note, almost nothing gets ever translated to English, compared to the other direction...). As I said, I feel that my time is better spent writing content, but I'd be happy to see this stuff in English and help c/e resulting translations.

I'll start with two broader articles, one mine and one from another editor:

• pl:Fantastyka socjologiczna w Polsce to social science fiction in Poland
• pl:Klerykal fiction to Klerykal fiction (there is no common English term for this; clerical fiction has been used but it is also used for different topic(s) and should be a disambig at some point, although clergy and religious figures in fiction which would be the other common meaning does not exist yet)

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I've added these to the tracker. Feel free to send more my way :) 7804j (talk) 19:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I see they were both just translated - thanks (I assume @Oliwiasocz is one of yours?).

Here are a "few" more suggestions (all articles are IMHO at GA level, I just don't nominate them at pl wiki because I just don't bother there with GA reviews so far, but I may nominate them for GAs here - I will likely do it for the Klerykal ficiton). They were pretty much all DYKed on pl wiki and I'll try to get them to DYK here too. A few articles I marked as short but I think they are important and relatively comprehensive. This represents much of what I wrote on pl wiki over the last 2-3 years, although I'll get back to you in few months with some more entries if you'd like, as well as entries of others once I identify them

• pl:Veto (gra karciana) - a Polish CCG. User:BOZ will likely enjoy reading about it :)
• pl:Na drugą planetę - one of the first Polish sf works and its sequel, pl:Zaziemskie światy
• pl:Aż do nieba - a rare manga with a Polish theme
• pl:Wielka, większa i największa - an important (milestone) Polish sf book for young readers
• pl:W leju po bombie - an award winning Polish sf story
• pl:Wilcza zamieć - another one (shorter article)
• pl:Miasto grobów. Uwertura (ditto)
• Other Polish sf books that we have recently improved pl:Małe zielone ludziki, pl:Korzeniacy, czyli Jesień wsamrazków, pl:Mój księżycowy pech, pl:Ci z Dziesiątego Tysiąca, pl:Kuzynki, pl:Księga jesiennych demonów, pl:Wypychacz zwierząt, pl:Aparatus (zbiór opowiadań), pl:Czerwona gorączka
• other Polish books (mostly not sf): pl:Trylogia antyczna , pl:Flibustierowie, pl:Czarodziejski okręt, pl:Od Warszawy do Ojcowa, pl:Krwawy chleb, pl:Krzyż i półksiężyc, pl:Kłopoty Kacperka góreckiego skrzata, pl:Kichuś majstra Lepigliny, pl:Szewc z Lichtenrade, pl:1945–1979. Historia i teraźniejszość
• pl:Jerzy Broszkiewicz - a Polish writer bio I recently expanded on pl, here it has just a tiny stub (Jerzy Broszkiewicz)
• pl:Jerzy Jeliński - a Polish scout, traveler and explorer
• pl:Periodyzacja historii Polski - important Polish historiography topic
• pl:Kanon literatury polskiej - important Polish literature topic (short article, but worth translating IMHO - the topic is pretty under researched)
• also similar to that: pl:Państwowa Nagroda Literacka
• pl:Szwedzki (artysta) - I wanted to get this TLed before Wikimiania, now it is low priority, but still fun (short article)
• pl:Mikołaj Komorowski (1578–1633) - historical trivia bio related to pl:Powstanie chłopskie na Podhalu (1630–1633) which needs translation too (peasant uprising in Poland)

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:44, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Piotrus!

Yes, @Oliwiasocz is indeed part of OKA :)

I've added all the articles you shared to our tracker, thanks for the curated list! It's always helpful to have a pre-reviewed list of well-sourced articles to translate, so yes please keep them coming 7804j (talk) 08:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@7804j Sure. I'd add pl:Literatura fantasy w Polsce, my newest article there. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I've started to review Polish wiki GAs in some fields I am interested in, to see which meet modern standards. Are you interested in my recommendations (which to translate), or are you just working with lists of GA in other languages missing from en? To start and as an example of a good GA missing from en: pl:Maria Skibniewska. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:20, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

All the GA articles are already in our backlog, so we're more interested if you have recommendations from non-GA or non-"featured" articles to translate 7804j (talk) 16:32, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm, some GA on pl wiki are not very good (not up to the modern standards). Also, some of the articles I mention(ed) are, will or already have undergone GA review on pl wiki. With that said, seeing how quickly your project is getting stuff done, here are a few more:

Some more recommendations from the list of articles I created:

• pl:Len (baśń) (one of Andersen's fairy tales which surprisingly has no wiki article outside pl...)
• pl:Fandom mangi i anime w Polsce
• pl:Dziennik Wileński
• pl:Trzecia brama

and those by others whom I know as creating very good content

• pl:Czesław Gawlikowski
• pl:Czarna msza (antologia)
• pl:Drugi próg życia
• pl:PL +50. Historie przyszłości
• pl:Wizje alternatywne
• pl:Obrona Ochoty i Woli (8–9 września 1939)
• pl:Arbeitsamty w okupowanej Polsce
• pl:Fania Brancowska
• pl:Madeleine Caulier
• pl:Zofia Sara Syrkin-Binsztejnowa
• pl:Barbara Warda
• pl:Henryk Mania
• pl:Zbrodnia w Niederkainie
• pl:Zbrodnia w Horce
• pl:Udział Ukraińców w tłumieniu powstania warszawskiego (I see it is GA on pl wiki)
• pl:Franz Magill (here, en exists at similar length but has no footnotes, pl article is well referenced)
• pl:Anna Wasilewska (rolniczka)
• pl:Masakra w Wężowym Parowie (en wiki exists but is much shorter then the well developed pl article)

I will stop here for now, but I can and will give you more in a little while again - I was mostly looking at recent Polish DYK archives for said editors I know. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! I've added then to the tracker. The only thing that's not clear to me is whether pl:Wizje alternatywne has enough sources for EN WP (I only see 3) 7804j (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@7804j The sources are reliable, and back up most content (outside tables of contents). The article could perhaps be expanded further, but I listed it as it is IMHO an important book series in Polish sf, and the article would likely be DYKable if translated. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:44, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

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