Talk:Willow (TV series)

Canceled?

Hello. There's been a disagreement on whether Willow has been canceled or not, since it was removed from Disney+. Since I don't want to get involved in an edit war, I'm opening up a discussion here as per the WP:BRD process. Given that, what's the best way to deal with the situation? Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

There was a discussion over at Talk:List of Disney+ original programming. The way it’s looked at, the issue is with showrunner Jonathan Kasdan releasing a statement on Twitter when the show was announced as cancelled that it being cancelled was not the case, it was more a release of the actors to figure out season 2 and not hold them down to commitments. Now, with the show being pulled from the service, which is marked as such, but I find there needs to be a firmer remark from Kasdan that this hiatus is now a complete cancellation due to this. Rusted AutoParts 21:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

It was canceled in March 2023 which is supported by a reliable source under the Development subsection. Unless the executive producers or Disney+ say explicitly there was no cancellation. — YoungForever^(talk) 22:15, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, Kasdan stated that the it was more releasing the actors from their contracts. He explicitly disputed the cancellation in those tweets, and hasn't more firmly stated due to the show's removal it's indeed fully dead. Rusted AutoParts 22:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. It's deader than dead. This would not be the first time a showrunner publicly said, "But, but, but – The show's not really dead!" That doesn't make it true. Disney absolutely dropped it (it doesn't get more definitive than removing the entire series from your streaming service!), and until there's publicly released information that the show has been picked up elsewhere (fat chance!), the show must be recorded as "cancelled". Also, releasing actors from their contracts is pretty much the industry definition of a TV show ending. I really don't understand why a few fans are whistling past the graveyard on this. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't find it particularly fair to just deride the showrunner's words like that, they're still involved in the show in regards to speaking on its fate so discounting Kasdan stating it was more of an entered hiatus doesn't feel fair. And the purge pulled out shows that hadn't been cancelled too. The World According to Jeff Goldblum wasn't cancelled prior. If the consensus is that with the removal that effectively signals loud and clear there is no hiatus only definitive cancellation, I'm not going to block it but I just felt it made sense to factor in Kasdan's prior statement. Rusted AutoParts 23:38, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

From my understanding, showrunners do not have the final say if a series get renew or cancel. It is the network that has the final say. — YoungForever^(talk) 00:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

They do not – the network (or, in this case, streaming service) actually contracts/pays for the series: they decide if a show continues. A showrunner can confirm cancellation when a network does not – we do use them for that. But a showrunner cannot unilaterally keep a show going after it has been cancelled – if Disney drops it, the show is dead, unless someone else (another network or streaming service) picks it up. That circumstance has also actually happened in the past (though rarely). That certainly will not happen in this case. And, regardless – the show is dead until it is publicly announced that someone (else) has picked it up.

Regardless, the article gives Kasdan's comments their due in the article (though, I might argue they are actually WP:UNDUE, but it's probably harmless to include them, as long as they are given context). So they are not being ignored.

But this show is done, based on all available WP:RSs (again, it doesn't get any more definitive than Variety who have "confirmed" cancellation). This article needs to have an end date and Category:2023 American television series endings added to it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 00:32, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, I do not understand why people take Kasdan's words that it is not canceled, Disney+ confirmed the cancellation. Kasdan just hopes that it gets pick up in the future. The keyword is "hopes", that's not a confirmation that it is not canceled. — YoungForever^(talk) 01:25, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Disney+ confirmed the cancellation Where did Disney+ confirm this? —Locke Cole • t • c 01:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Read the Variety source again: "The "Willow" TV series is done after just one season at Disney+, Variety has confirmed." The fact that the word "cancellation" is not used is simply a semantic one. The show is done at Disney+. That means they will not order more episodes/seasons. The series is over at that point, unless somebody else picks it up. It has now been months, and no one else has picked it up. The show is over. Kasdan can be in denial about that, but we at Wikipedia are not required to follow his lead. (This falls under WP:ONUS.) I don't know how anyone can seriously convince themselves otherwise at this point. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:10, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it's expecting more, but... a media outlet making an unattributed claim like this seems like a stretch especially when the "confirmed" outcome has been challenged by someone involved in the production of the show. Is there a press release or statement from a rep at Disney? —Locke Cole • t • c 02:16, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

User:Locke Cole Most users here seem to be in favour of marking it as cancelled and many have edited the article to change it to such. And frankly the media reports are reliable enough, especially after the show's removal from Disney+. Kasdan's claims about contracts don't really make much sense. Did they really just let them all go? The consensus seems to be against you, I would advise you stop reverting the show's status as cancelled. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 02:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted once, while it seems a number of editors (including a number that don't appear to realize there's this talk page) have chosen to revert war over it. Maybe warn yourself against reverting further? I'm still not seeing Disney+ stating the show is cancelled, just tabloids "confirming" things... —Locke Cole • t • c 03:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh, good lord – Variety is not a "tabloid": it is the preeminent "industry" publication in Hollywood. They are the "gold standard" – if Variety says a show is cancelled, and that they have confirmed that, then that show is done. Deadline reported the exact same thing, before they added the rambling equivocation from Kasdan. Regardless, I would agree with Roman Reigns Fanboy that there is likely a consensus at this article to put the show down as "ended" here. If that changes due to new developments at a later date, the article can always been updated at that point. But Kasdan's comments are no reason not to report that the show has been ended. (Frankly, even Kasdan's comments could be taken to mean that he thinks a "spinoff" series is possible, not a direct continuation of this now cancelled series...) Regardless, when a streamer removes a (new/recent) show from its library, it is 100% not coming back. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:23, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Neat, then we should be able to solve this via a quick straw poll and be done with it. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Try telling that to the people over at List of Disney+ original programming. Stick a fork in it; it's done. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:19, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended content

I'm sorry, I mistook you for another editor when talking about reverting. But I've only reverted once on this article too (and that too to restore the show as not cancelled), so I don't know why you're getting so hostile. Since when were Deadline and Variety tabloids? If you're not satisfied, it doesn't matter. The consensus doesn't seem to in your favour. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 03:24, 29 May 2023 (UTC) I don't know why you're getting so hostile Because I was warned to stop reverting? And my name shows up exactly one time in the edit history while many other editors show up repeatedly? It's why I also asked WP:RFPP to have the page fully protected until people can talk this out rather than revert war non-stop over this? —Locke Cole • t • c 03:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC) You weren't "warned" User:Locke Cole, my advise was meant as friendly as I thought you might get involved in an edit war. I should have worded my comment better. I didn't check the history section. Maybe don't automatically assume others are attacking you? And you don't need to resort to telling me to warn myself, especially when I reverted only once. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 03:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC) The consensus seems to be against you, I would advise you stop reverting the show's status as cancelled. Maybe don't automatically presume you're in a battleground and respond to my questions instead of making assumptions? —Locke Cole • t • c 04:13, 29 May 2023 (UTC) Maybe don't automatically presume you're in a battleground and respond to my questions instead of making assumptions? As I already said I thought you were repeatedly reverting User:Locke Cole, I didn't see it as a battle. I don't even know you. Maybe don't take offense so easily instead. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 05:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC) Maybe don't take offense so easily instead. I think we'll go with you not doling out comments like that so carelessly in the future instead. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:49, 29 May 2023 (UTC) I hope you didn't mean this: Maybe warn yourself against reverting further? Since the consensus is against you and you're needlessly taking offense, I advise you to just let the issue go and disengage. :) Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 05:55, 29 May 2023 (UTC) As I'm not the one warning people to stop reverting after just one edit, I'll trust you to figure out that disengaging bit on your own. :) —Locke Cole • t • c 06:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC) Or you can stop getting offended over and assuming a friendly advise because I didn't want you to get into an edit warring as a warning. :) Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 06:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC) I assure you, with one edit and a visit to WP:RFPP, I was not under any risk of edit warring. :) —Locke Cole • t • c 06:27, 29 May 2023 (UTC) You're aware that I thought you reverted multiple times, which is why you said I've reverted once, while it seems a number of editors (including a number that don't appear to realize there's this talk page) have chosen to revert war over it. Maybe warn yourself against reverting further? You don't need to lie about the situation. Btw I misassumed you with RustedAutoparts who has reverted multiple times. :( Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 06:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Straw poll

Should the series be listed as Canceled with the appropriate categories for such a status or should it be listed as Ongoing as per the discussion above and at Talk:List of Disney+ original programming? —Locke Cole • t • c 07:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Ongoing, the only RS don't state any source for their "confirmation" and it runs against what one of the producers has publicly stated. We can state the situation using prose to describe the situation more fully until Disney or someone else involved with the show makes a statement confirming it as canceled. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:26, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

* Cancelled: Wikipedia doesn't require multiple sources to be added to an article and if that's such a problem more can be added. There's already Variety here on the talk page stating that it's cancelled, that can be added alongside the Deadline source in the article. News outlets do not reveal their sources often to protect them. There's been no further news on the show by Kasdan and it's removed from Disney+. It's dead and season 2 is not happening. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 08:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Not sure how/where to vote in the Straw Poll, yet by chance it's here - this one is my selection.

  Disney+ removed it; therefore, it's technically cancelled from Disney+. For the Disney+ entry, it should be marked as Ended.

  Within the entry for the show, perhaps the designation can be hiatus because who knows what options The Walt Disney Company are seeking for the series beyond Disney+, yet for Disney+, it's cancelled/Ended. Angylaloha (talk) 04:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Hiatus (television) is when a series has been pulled from broadcast, but has not been officially "cancelled" yet. In the case of a streamer, when a series is actually pulled from its library so that it is no longer available, that's not a "hiatus" – that's like a "cancellation with prejudice". It should definitely be marked down as "ended" at this article – no one aside from Disney has indicated any interest in picking up the show. Without that, it is "ended". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  We can't operate on the basis of "who knows". That's pure speculation and WP:CRYSTAL. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 08:32, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  And yet speculation from a couple of sources, which were contradicted by a producer on the show, somehow isn't worthy of further scrutiny... —Locke Cole • t • c 05:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Sources saying confirmation isn't speculation. Somehow it's not cancelled but Disney+ decided to remove it and the same producer is attacking Disney as cruel [1]. I'd rather trust the media sources over his one statement in past. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 05:20, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

• Cancelled – we follow what WP:RS report, not what a showrunner "hopes" might happen. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:15, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  I subscribe to Puck, and per Matt Belloni (a former editor of The Hollywood Reporter, a trade, and he is highly respected and connected.)

  Note: there is a paywall, yet when an email is provided, they allow a one-time preview, or one can do a 14 day trial. If interested in show business though, I recommend a subscription.

  "The downside is that once you take the impairment charge, you can’t put that asset back on Disney+ again. It’s gone, at least for the full impairment period.

  But it’s not necessarily a total loss. When you impair an asset, like a TV show, you then look at what value you might be able to gain from other sources: Electronic sell-through platforms (like purchases on Amazon or Apple TV), a FAST channel (PlutoTV, Tubi), maybe Netflix or Amazon bites, etcetera. If you do find a buyer, you subtract what you’ve earned there from the write-off, and the content lives on somewhere. If not, it disappears."

  https://puck.news/disney-and-the-great-streaming-purge/

  Therefore, with Disney+, the status for Willow is Ended. Best-case scenario - it will end up somewhere else. Worst-case scenario - it will not. With both, it remains removed from Disney+. Angylaloha (talk) 15:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Canceled: Disney+ confirmed the cancellation which is already reliably sourced. We go by reliable sources, not what not by "most likely", "hopes", "planning" , and etc. for a second season. It is pretty much WP:NOTCRYSTAL. — YoungForever^(talk) 22:05, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

  You keep making this claim, but so far Disney has not "confirmed" anything. The only sources cited so far hinge on what the reporter has allegedly confirmed, and they even admitted it wasn't solid once the tweet came out.. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:19, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Both Variety and Deadline Hollywood reported the series is canceled. Did Disney+ denied the cancellation? No, Disney+ did not denied the cancellation. The series is dead as it is now even removed on Disney+. — YoungForever^(talk) 05:57, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Correct – when Deadline and Variety called up Disney, Disney had a clear opportunity to "correct" any incorrect notions. IOW, if the show was truly "paused" or "put on a hiatus" or was potentially going to be "rebooted", Disney had a chance to make the record clear on that. As they did not deny the "cancellation"/"ended" question from these media outlets, they effectively confirmed the show was dead at Disney. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:22, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  when Deadline and Variety called up Disney Source for this? Because the stories only state it is "confirmed", they don't state how it was "confirmed", and this looks more like speculation on their part with the near retraction made once Kasdan weighed in. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:54, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Isn't it standard practice for news outlets to call a party they're reporting on? Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 16:41, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Disney or Disney+ did not confirm the cancellation. Not correcting doesn't mean a confirmation. Have to agree with Locke Cole here, but unlike his statement they never admitted that it wasn't solid. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 08:35, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  Variety says that they have "confirmed". If Disney had said nothing, they wouldn't have said "confirmed". And, yes – "not correcting" would in fact be an implicit "confirmation". Also, pulling the series off the streaming service is another form of "confirmation". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  I think you're right. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 01:44, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Congratulations on your original research. You should go write for Variety or Deadline. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Please stop being aggressive Locke Cole. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 05:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  It's aggressive to point out that original research is not acceptable here? That's new. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:45, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes it is, when you do in a sarcastic manner. For someone so offended by my words earlier, you sure have no control over your anger. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 08:07, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  I'm not angry. Are you sure you're not angry and you're just projecting? —Locke Cole • t • c 10:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

  Not going to work. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Ongoing – The problem is that after reporting that the series had been cancelled, multiple of those same WP:RELIABLE sources walked back their declaration of cancellation. Both Deadline Hollywood and TVLine did, who are part of the same media company as Variety. So the issue is that we have multiple conflicting reliable sources unable to confirm whether the series is actually cancelled or not between May 15 and 17, 2023, and no reliable sources stating that the series is canceled so after May 17, 2023 (at least, none that I could find). In light of conflicting information, I'm just voting for WP:STATUSQUO. Nisf (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC) Nisf (talk) 15:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Showrunners don't determine whether TV series continue – networks do. Whatever Kasdan says is irrelevant unless he is backed up by Disney. He wasn't. In fact, they pulled the series from Disney+. Nothing more clearly says a series is "dead" than that.

Anything else is wishful thinking and whistling past the graveyard. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I don't care one way or another whether the series is cancelled or not (I did not watch it, I just maintain the TV programming pages), my main beef is the conflict of reliable sources. The point is... we have no confirmation from a network about whether the series is cancelled, we're all inferring that it's cancelled based on lack of comment by Disney and that they pulled it from streaming. The only other confirmation we have of cancellations are the trades that contradict themselves a couple days after publishing the initial news. Without anything explicit and after the trades' backtracking, I'm in favor of acting conservatively and keeping the status quo. Nisf (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I also have never watched this series (in fact, I've never watched the original film either!). But I've been watching the TV industry for 40 years, and there is no question that this show is dead. A showrunner can say whatever he wants, but what the network/company does with the show is what actually matters.

The last show in a similar situation was Manifest (TV series) and that show was in fact "cancelled", until it was picked up by Netflix. As no one has picked up Willow by this point, it's dead. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:37, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I mean, part of the difference between this and Manifest is that Manifest was a broadcast network show, which we already have protocols to deal with if they don't get explicitly picked up for another season, or if there's a reasonable amount of time between when the last new episode aired and now. We don't really have much of a precedent where a show was removed from a streaming service shortly after airing the most recent episode and where multiple reliable sources conflict on whether it is canceled or not. (The closest we have is the purge of HBO Max shows last year, but I don't believe any of those had conflicting accounts about whether the series were completely canceled or not.)

I, personally, do think that it is canceled based on the actions and circumstantial evidence surrounding it. But without a definitive statement after the publication of the conflicting trade reports, I'm concerned that declaring it "canceled" is participating in WP:OR. Keep in mind this would also set a precedent for any shows in a similar situation moving forward.

(Personally, I think what we're really debating is whether we mark it as canceled now or whether we do so in about 8 months when a year has passed without any word on a renewal, as is the consensus on the TV programming wikis.) Nisf (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I believe it's [WP:COMMONSENSE]] that it's cancelled since if something is obvious, it's not OR. No one involved with Willow except Kasdan has said the show isn't cancelled. I doubt multiple sources would be making up its cancellation.

And Kasdan hasn't provided any update on the show. Season 1 didn't end today, it ended 4 months ago. Is it taking them that much time to renegotiate contracts or hire even one actor? All that he's done is call the Disney+ removal as cruel, and I fail to see why Disney+ would be removing a show it intends to continue. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 15:52, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

You're using an essay (WP:COMMONSENSE) to refute a policy (WP:NOR)? All that he's done is call the Disney+ removal as cruel, and I fail to see why Disney+ would be removing a show it intends to continue. That's some exciting speculation. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:08, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That essay is linked to an actual policy WP:IAR, which says you can ignore rules with consensus. So I don't see the harm in it. As for the speculation part, you can answer me why the contracts haven't been renewed if you know why. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 16:15, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

There's a reason why WP:COMMONSENSE has a header that states This page is intended to provide additional information about concepts in the page(s) it supplements. This page is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. If COMMONSENSE had the backing of the community, it would be part of WP:IAR, not off in an essay. So I don't see the harm in it. It would be original research? you can answer me why the contracts haven't been renewed if you know why I don't know why, and neither do you. That's the problem here, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, we don't speculate. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Fine let's disregard COMMONSENSE. But WP:IAR still allows users to discard rules. As for the contracts, if you don't know, how many months or years to say it's cancelled, do you want us to wait because of words of one person? We already know, the Disney+ removal and his comment of calling it cruel made it clear. It's done. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 16:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the sources made it up, but two of the three major sources that reported on the cancellation backtracked their original stories (as cited below). I don't really care about what Kasdan said, I care more that we're not getting a coherent picture about whether the show is cancelled or not from reliable sources OR the network.

If the WP:CONSENSUS is to declare canceled, I'm happy to update the List of Disney+ original programming entry with a note that it's already been discussed. But 1) discussion DID need to happen due to edit conflicts and 2) do keep in mind that this does affect how we treat similar shows moving forward. Nisf (talk) 16:28, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

No one from Disney+ backtracked and said it is not canceled. It has been months already. It is not original research when the cancellation is confirmed. — YoungForever^(talk) 16:04, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

No one from Disney+ has confirmed one way or another. The cancellation was never confirmed - two of the same publications (Deadline Hollywood and TVLine) that reported on the cancellation themselves backtracked, as cited in my original post. Nisf (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

There is also Tuca & Bertie. Netflix canceled the series after one season. And then, Adult Swim rescued (picked up) the series for a second season, and later, a third season. It was canceled again, but on Adult Swim. Similarly, the showrunner said "hopes to get the chance to finish their story" when it got canceled on Adult Swim. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:41, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

He didn't say it didn't get cancelled, it's not the same case. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 00:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

I mean yes, there's plenty of shows that have been canceled and that the showrunners have shopped around for further season to be picked up by another network - sometimes it does get picked up (Chad, Minx), sometimes it doesn't. Either way, there's always at least been a solid confirmation that the show was dropped by the original network without the backtracking/vagueness that's going on here. Nisf (talk) 14:31, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Cancelled: Not only do we have the Variety and Deadline reports linked by others, but the series was removed from Disney + so that the company can write off the costs of producing it to get a tax break. The show was literally worth more to Disney dead than alive as noted in a May 25th Forbes article. Why are we interested in taking the word of the showrunner - who's self interest in keeping hope alive is self evident - over the company's very public actions killing the show? Leiman Smith (talk) 17:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Is that actually a Forbes article? It's written as an opinon piece, and even has a warning that Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own, not the kind of warning I'd expect for sanctioned pieces. It's worth noting that per WP:FORBESCON, "contributors" are generally considered unreliable and not suitable for use within Wikipedia articles. Most content on Forbes.com is written by contributors with minimal editorial oversight, and is generally unreliable. Editors show consensus for treating Forbes.com contributor articles as self-published sources, unless the article was written by a subject-matter expert. Forbes.com contributor articles should never be used for third-party claims about living persons. Articles that have also been published in the print edition of Forbes are excluded, and are considered generally reliable. Check the byline to determine whether an article is written by "Forbes Staff" or a "Contributor", and check underneath the byline to see whether it was published in a print issue of Forbes. Previously, Forbes.com contributor articles could have been identified by their URL beginning in "forbes.com/sites"; the URL no longer distinguishes them, as Forbes staff articles have also been moved under "/sites". So unless this has been published in the print edition of Forbes, then that source doesn't matter to our discussion here. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:05, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

• Ongoing: After reading through Nisf's explanations and articles, I think we should wait for a while. Kasdan has stated that Season 2 won't film until a year according to his comments and Deadline did backtrack. Roman Reigns Fanboy (talk) 16:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

References