Talk:Scarborough, Ontario

Requested move 11 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved per consensus. The opposers have no policies or guidelines behind them, and I give them very little weight. Thanks. (closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 03:35, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

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Scarborough, Toronto → Scarborough, Ontario – Per WP:CANPLACE, formerly autonomous municipalities which have been amalgamated, but have kept a distinct municipal address, can be disambiguated as "Neighbourhood, Province". 162 etc. (talk) 18:08, 11 December 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 05:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Article was moved from Scarborough, Ontario to Scarborough, Toronto in 2015, apparently undiscussed. 162 etc. (talk) 18:11, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
• support per nom. We might as well talk about moving York, Toronto to York, Ontario as well—blindlynx 20:32, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  Yes, that one was moved around the same time, by the same user. @Alaney2k: 162 etc. (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Support both of these.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
    • Support both as well. -- Earl Andrew - talk 00:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support all. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 01:40, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support. I've seen no evidence that either of the 2015 page moves actually took into account the real rule — which is that city neighbourhoods which are still recognized as distinct mailing addresses in their own right stay at the province level rather than being moved to the city level. For a person who lives in Scarberia, even to this day their mailing address is still Scarborough, ON rather than Toronto, ON. Bearcat (talk) 14:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

• The rule is that they CAN stay with the Ontario disambiguator. Not that they must. Should every possible postal community be X, Province? No obviously.Alaney2k (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

• Don't support - While the rule says that articles CAN stay at the province level, I don't see a rationale FOR the move. Just because it is possible, is not a reason. There are literally dozens of former municipalities in Toronto. Carlton, Weston, Toronto Junction, Parkdale, Mimico, New Toronto, North York, East York, Islington, Rexdale, Downsview, Humber Bay, Etobicoke, York, and there were even villages within Scarborough. Just because you can address a letter to Scarborough, ON, doesn't mean it makes ANY sense to change the article title. People will think that Scarborough is separate from Toronto and it HAS NOT BEEN SEPARATE for over 20 ! years. The first line of the article will still say that Scarborough is a district of Toronto. Alaney2k (talk) 17:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
• Don't support - Editors of articles about neighborhoods in the 905 cities need to read this: They're full of neighborhoods that use the"Neighbourhood, Ontario" format because nearly everyone has a poor sense of municipal identity and still thinks of these places as towns or villages without question and don't even think of opening discussions like this.Transportfan70 (talk) 19:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  A merger of municipal governments does not mean that the municipal identity disappears. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any secondary sources using Bolton, Caledon rather than Bolton, Ontario; or Keswick, Georgina rather than Keswick, Ontario. The "postal address" rule makes sense to me; but feel free to bring it up at WT:Manual of Style/Canada-related articles if you disagree. 162 etc. (talk) 20:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

  For "standalone" places like Bolton or Keswick you're right, but I'm talking places like Woodbridge, Unionville, and Buttonville, which are fully urbanized areas within cities. Even the infoboxes for these areas are of a town style, and some even have "Climate" sections.Transportfan70 (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  They're still thought of and talked about like distinct towns. I honestly didn't even thing about those places being fully urbanized until you mentioned it—blindlynx 19:36, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

  York and Toronto's suburbs are different from Toronto. There are municipalities within York. And these former municipalities are spread apart. Not so in Toronto. Scarborough is nothing more than a division on a map now. A somewhat distinct district maybe. But drive up Vic Park Ave. Both sides look the same. All of the services are Toronto. From the perspective of a reader outside Toronto, and anywhere in the world, Scarborough is part of Toronto. Alaney2k (talk) 23:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

  By that metric most of the GTA can be thought of as part of Toronto from the perspective of certain outsiders, the Canada Post test is a decent metric for where to drawn the line especially given that people in southern Ontario—including Torontonians—still think in terms of preamalgamation municipalities—blindlynx 23:47, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

  That is a bit silly. Of course, if you mention Mississauga or Woodbridge to someone outside Ontario, etc. you would still want to give them something to reference that is known internationally. We've gone over this several times. There is not benefit to renaming it. Simply because you can and some (an undefined number) think of it differently is not a rationale to rename the article. The common name is Scarborough. Adding the Toronto is for disambiguation, and is the closest upper level of governance. It is informative in that way. What benefit does changing it to Scarborough, Ontario bring? A sense of nostalgia fulfilled? I've occasionally thought that Scarborough, Ontario could be an article about the place that was. But then what would the new article be? And why divide it? People think of it as Scarborough, so don't split it, keep it an article about the current Scarborough. That is what Wikipedia is about after all, being current. If there is interest, then make a history of Scarborough, Ontario article. It dates back to just before 1800 after all. Alaney2k (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Of course it's silly that's why we have the Canada Post test in WP:CANPLACE! Scarborough, Ontario is a more intuitive and natural way of thinking about it even now. There's no nostalgia in it, people still think in terms of these divisions—blindlynx 20:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Woodbridge, Unionville, and Buttonville aren't municipalities anymore (in fact, they ceased to be long before Scarborough did), and Buttonville never was, nor did Buttonville ever have an identifiable "village" save for a few houses. And they're no longer spread apart. They're suburban districts that extend far from their original sites, just like their Toronto counterparts.Transportfan70 (talk) 03:56, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - Scarborough, Ontario already redirects here. Scarborough hasn't been it's own city since late last century, and is now a major subdivision of the City of Toronto, with some limited self-government under the auspices of Toronto City Council, as documented in Scarborough, Toronto#Governance. Reverting to archaic Canada Post postal codes (?!?) doesn't reflect common usage - good grief, doesn't Canada Post still recognize Willowdale, Ontario, which never existed. Perhaps this system works for Ghosttown, Ontario ... but not for distinct Toronto neighbourhoods; there are many many similar articles, such as Swansea, Toronto. Nfitz (talk) 02:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  This argument about using Canada Post offices is wrong. Canada Post delivers by postal code anyway. You could probably leave off the city on any piece of mail, and as long as you put the code on, it would get delivered. If you receive mail, as I do, you notice that they sort by postal code by marks on the envelope. And the city already renamed streets in all municpalities to disambiguate them. It has been recognized this is one big city. Alaney2k (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  To be fair, that last bit was due to the amalgamation of the 911 systems of each municipality. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 18:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

  Your issue seems to be with MOS:CANADA not with this particular move—blindlynx 17:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

  Is it though? MOS says "may" not "must". And in the case of a former city, where the name is no longer used in many contexts, that may be appropriate. But given that Scarborough not only remains a prominent neighbourhood, it's also a subpolitical unit of the City of Toronto. Nfitz (talk) 03:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

  Sorry i don't follow, how is it more appropriate when it's no longer used in in many contexts—unlike Scarborough—blindlynx 20:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support - as someone who was born and raised in Scarborough, I really don't care about which disambiguator is used. Scarborough, Ontario is still very much common vernacular (nobody will say "Scarborough, Toronto", though they will acknowledge it is part of Toronto). What I do think may matter here is the fact that Scarborough isn't a neighbourhood. Cedarbrae, Malvern, Agincourt... Those are neighbourhoods. Scarborough is nothing now but a memory and a reference. It's a former place in Ontario, not a current place in Toronto... at least that's how I see it. I wouldn't agree to "East Whitby, Oshawa", and I feel the same idea applies here. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 17:39, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

• No-one describes Scarborough as a neighbourhood, and several neighbourhoods as you describe were former postal villages too. It's best to leave out personal feelings and be objective. Alaney2k (talk) 00:06, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

• Weak support using the least precise geographical entity is probably best though Toronto may well be better known than Ontario. Fulwood, Lancashire (a former district, now in Preston district) is similarly disambiguated by "state" rather than district/city and Pinewood, Suffolk is also a municipality in Babergh district but in the town of Ipswich but is disambiguated by "state" rather than town. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:04, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Reassessment

Scarborough, Ontario

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

This 2008 listing contains significant uncited material (especially in the Infrastructure section), meaning it does not meet GA criterion 2b), and has numerous other tags for a lack of updates. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scarborough, Ontario → Scarborough, Toronto

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As the article itself states, Scarborough is a DISTRICT of Toronto. Hence, the name Scarborough, Ontario is misleading and counter-productive as it indicates that Scarborough is its own municipality, which it is not. Postal codes under the letter M all count as Toronto, which includes all postal codes in Scarborough. Similarly, the Mayor of Toronto rules over Scarborough as well. The City of Toronto, Toronto Public Libraries, and Toronto Transit commission all operate in Scarborough, which means Toronto funding goes towards Scarborough. Not to mention, it is Toronto's largest district by land. Overall, Scarborough is not it's own city, and does not need to be considered so under this Wikipedia title, especially considering its role towards the Toronto economy, culture, and people. Canadiancorrections (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Support: I agree with the points raised and believe the name of the article should be reverted to "Scarborough, Toronto." The current title, "Scarborough, Ontario", is misleading as was discussed because it implies that Scarborough is an independent municipality within Ontario. However, this is not the case and hasn't been so since the amalgamation of Scarborough into Toronto in 1998. Furthermore, Scarborough residents are represented by Toronto City Councillors and Members of Provincial Parliament (MPPs) who serve the Scarborough area within the larger Toronto electoral district. We can even consider the category of federal electoral districts of Toronto for this conversation. Take the areas of:

- Scarborough Centre

- Scarborough North

- Scarborough Southwest

- Scarborough—Agincourt

- Scarborough—Guildwood

- Scarborough—Rouge Park

- Scarborough—Rouge River

Each district listed lie under Toronto for the census division and subdivision. We can see a similar pattern when it comes to the electoral districts of Ontario.

Even beyond electoral districts, just looking at the breakdown of what the Greater Toronto Area is, Scarborough is not listed anywhere in the Municipalities in Greater Toronto Area and related CMAs table. Since Scarborough has been "Scarborough, Toronto" since the amalgamation, we don't see it designated as its own municipality in that table. It does not have its own "standing" when thinking about the GTA because it is part of Toronto. Ashenafee (talk) 17:34, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The ", Ontario" suffix is not just for municipalities, it can be for any valid mailing address. For example, there are lots of communities that aren't in any municipality, as they're in unorganized areas. Also, due to amalgamations, you have lots of large municipalities in the province that have several distinct communities within them. I think it would be ridiculous to have the article on Lindsay, Ontario be moved to Lindsay, Kawartha Lakes just because it's not a municipality anymore. And I think the same applies to Scarborough. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

SUPPORT Thank you for bringing up mailing addresses! Those in Scarborough often receive mail that says "Toronto, ON." Both Scarborough and Toronto are valid to write for postal codes ending in M. As for Lindsay, small towns operate a bit differently than large metropolitan cities (in terms of public transport, community centres, etc.) , hence why the amalgamation of Toronto plays a crucial role in this title. Canadiancorrections (talk) 01:32, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. First and foremost, "Scarborough, Toronto" fails WP:COMMONNAME. See also WP:CANPLACE, and the 2022 RM above. 162 etc. (talk) 01:30, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.