Talk:Sócrates

"Socrates" page should be default-pointed to the philosopher Socrates

Instead it points to the famed footballer. The rationale for my suggestion is that the impact of Socrates the philosopher has been much more widespread and much deeper than that of Socrates the footballer. Wikwiki (talk) 13:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Socrates does point to the philosopher. The page is at Sócrates - note the accent over the o. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

With an accent (Sócrates), the most famous person is former portuguese prime-minister Sócrates. For that reason, this page MUST NOT be for a football player, but rather a disambiguation page. Whoever abusively placed a not that well known football player as being more important than greek philosopher Socrates (used with accent in portuguese, just as both others), did not respect Wikipedia's standards. Please change it and keep Wikipedia's quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.170.229 (talk) 22:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

This page has a political bias

It lacks references too. Geferret (talk) 14:36, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Reports of death

Reports are coming in from Brazil that Sócrates has died. Page needs to be updated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.49.234 (talk) 09:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Career statistics

The career statistics section is clearly wrong. It should either be completed or, if the individual season statistics are not available, removed altogether as it just looks silly having false information in the article. Keresaspa (talk) 20:55, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

http://www.national-football-teams.com/player/17936/Socrates.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/sport-obituaries/8934498/Socrates.html

Competing statistics - the first one lists his Corinthians appearances season-by-season and gives the statistics as what the page currently shows (59 appearances, 41 goals). That statistic can be found elsewhere too. The Telegraph article states it as being 297 appearances and 172 goals. Over 6 years, which would mean 49.5 games a season on average. They agree on the Botafogo stats, and the international record is easily found.

http://www.worldfootball.net/player_summary/socrates/

This has the Fiorentina stats, including Europa League games and 2 goals that are not currently included in the stats (25 games, 6 goals).

300 competitive club games in six years seems unlikely, but I also find it weird that such a legendary player would only have 150 domestic appearances to his name. Conradteixeira (talk) 17:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Section order

In addition to what already appears in my summaries, changed order of sections because i feel that, since he is (was) a footballer, first we should address his sporting achievements (that includes stats and honours, not just CAREER), then the rest (politics, death, etc).

RIP Sócrates, happy 2012 everyone - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Honours section

This is for User:Terje Christiansen, re his reformatting of the section.warshy^talk 14:57, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Why do you need to put it into two colums, instead of 1? And, in the manner you did, you miss the section subtitles of "Club" and "Country", but you still have only the "Individual" subsection. Why only this one is kept? Organizationally on the page I see no preference for your format, rather than the original one. Please give your rationale? Thanks, warshy^talk 14:42, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

The "User" above is really just an IP with a name, not a regular registered editor, from his [weird] User "page." But he has also not bothered to try and answer my questions and/or justify his format edits, that do not add anything to the page. On the contrary, they make the organization of the page worse, as I explained above. I am reverting it now after attempting to discuss the changes here, and getting no reply. warshy^talk 21:02, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Anyhow; I have now included the "Club" and "Country" section subtitles that you mentioned – Terje Christiansen (talk) 16:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Myths section

"There is a persistent myth that Sócrates studied medicine in Dublin, Ireland, and that during this time he won a Sigerson Cup for University College Dublin" - the Sigerson Cup is a Gaelic football competition, not soccer. Is the allegedly widespread rumour/myth/claim that Socrates played Gaelic football for UCD? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:54, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Different editors don't agree on whether small details apply in this case or whether a disambiguator is needed to differentiate. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 02:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

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Sócrates → Sócrates (footballer) – Per discussions at Sable FC and Eric Martin (footballer, born 1946), diacritics should not act as disambiguation, and the natural disambiguation for footballers should be added instead. It's hard to type Sócrates in the search bar in the English Wikipedia. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:56, 28 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:SMALLDETAILS policy, which shows diacritics are sufficient disambiguation (giving The Wörld Is Yours vs The World Is Yours as an example). Poor decisions/closes made in RMs elsewhere (i.e. the Sable example) are not a justification for overriding site policy. Number 57 11:38, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
  • In Portuguese, the philosopher is also spellt "Sócrates" with an accent on the first "o". On first look, do you honestly think the uninformed reader could tell which is which? I think the added disambiguator would add clarity in this case.--Ortizesp (talk) 05:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:51, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per N57, and thanks for pointing me/us to WP:SMALLDETAILS. GiantSnowman 11:53, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: @Number 57: who made that edit? You might want to look at the edit history of SMALLDETAILS for signs of attempting to wag the dog. But the point is that even by the current pointy claims of SMALLDETAILS this fails since sources relate mainly to when he captained the team in the 1982 FIFA World Cup, and print sources in 1980s did not have diacritics even for French presidents, let alone Brazilian footballers. He simply is not known by the diacritic in English sources, so cannot be identified to English text readers by the diacritic. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Number 57 and GiantSnowman: would you be OK to remove redirect from Pele to Pelé per WP:smalldetails and WP:naturaldis as this was never to correct as "Pele" Brazillian fotballer in English? Things which are properly called "Pele"~(such like Pele (deity)) do not have competitive claim against Brazilian footballer but Mount Pelée which is often called just as "Pelée" would have. Is Pele/Pelé/Pelée right analogy to Sócrates/Socretes? Would we be consistent if we not change Sócrates as disambig but change Pele to disambig as correct spelling is more important? Dawid2009 (talk) 05:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, per N57. 99to99 (talk) 20:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
• Strong support This is the English Wikipedia. English keyboards do not have accented letters, and the closest approximation to Sócrates is Socrates, a Greek philosopher, who is far better-known. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 21:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Your justification is in reverse. If you type in Socrates it takes you to the philosopher. If you type in Socrates (footballer) it already takes you to the current page. The only way you'd get to this page mistakenly is if for some ridiculous unknown reason you typed Sócrates in the English Wikipedia trying to get to the ancient Greek dude. Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Improves recognizability. The diacratic is not a sufficient disambiguator for a general reader. In Portuguese, both are spelled the same. In English, both are also usually spelled the same. Walrasiad (talk) 05:36, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nomination, Ortizesp, Crossover1370 and Walrasiad. This article was created in January 2003 and was unilaterally moved to Sócrates (footballer) on January 10, 2007, but the move was reverted. Surprisingly, it has taken nearly 19 years for this main title header's first RM submission. Although WP:SMALLDETAILS does provide for differentiation via commas, periods, ellipses, quotation marks, exclamation marks, question marks or uppercase/lowercase letters, all of those can be handled on keyboards used in the English-speaking world. However, most RM discussions have arrived at a consensus that English Wikipedia main title headers should not differ solely on the basis of accents, diacritics or other characters not available on the majority of English-speaking world keyboards. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:54, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support: I'm not sure if I can support my own nomination but here I am. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:29, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Sócrates is primary topic (why not?), and Sócrates (disambiguation) also should be created if we have Socrates (disambiguation). Dawid2009 (talk) 17:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The accent is not enough to distinguish him from the philosopher. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Strong support per nom. The accent is not found in all English print sources so obviously is not enough to distinguish him from the philosopher. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
  • I fail to see the problem here. How could someone be confused by the current situation? No one looking for the philosopher types "Sócrates". Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The footballer is the clear primary topic of "Sócrates" in English; the philosopher is not in contention for primary topic per WP:RFOREIGN. If "Socrates" is the preferred title for the footballer, then we could move it to Socrates (footballer) and have Sócrates be a primary redirect. (I am not supporting or opposing this, just stating it as a possibility.) But no one is going to type "Sócrates" into English Wikipedia expecting to find the philosopher. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

There are always inconsistencies. Voters here are invited to visit Talk:Sobibór (village)#Requested move 9 April 2019 and its follow-up Talk:Sobibór (village)#Requested move 6 September 2021, below it. In those nominations, the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT for the World War II German death camp is Sobibor [without the Polish diacritic], with the full main title header Sobibor extermination camp, while the primary topic for the Polish village near the death camp is Sobibór [with the Polish diacritic]. To paraphrase King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠, above, "But no one is going to type "Sobibór" into English Wikipedia expecting to find the German death camp". However, with only two votes, both in opposition, the nomination Sobibór, Lublin Voivodeship → Sobibór failed. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 11:12, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

That's different - the concentration camp is actually located in Poland, so the Polish language is clearly relevant, and it would be RFOREIGN-compliant for Sobibór to redirect to Sobibor extermination camp (not suggesting that we should or shouldn't do this, merely that it is allowed). I will note that the current situation is just wrong: Sobibór is a primary redirect to Sobibór (village), something which we only allow in exceptional cicumstances like Symphony No. 100 → Symphony No. 100 (Haydn) per WP:MUSICSERIES. Otherwise we should never redirect a title to a parenthetically disambiguated version of itself.

In this situation, Portuguese/Spanish is completely irrelevant to the Greek philospher. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. I'm not a major fan of using diacritics for small details, but in this case it seems fair enough. The philosopher is never spelt with a diacritic in English, so it can only really refer to the footballer as a primary topiuc.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose not per small details at all, but because this leads to a completely nonsensical conclusion: either Sócrates redirects to Sócrates (footballer), which is absolutely absurd (see WP:R, among other policies); or Sócrates redirects to a dab page or to the philosopher, which is ridiculous because pretty much anyone who bothers to put the accent is looking for the soccer player. Red Slash 19:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

  +1 A much more succinct version of exactly the point I wanted to make. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:46, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

  I think the amount of people who search for the footballer and put in ó is probably minimal.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

  In that case, the correct title would be Socrates (footballer), with a primary redirect from Sócrates. In no case is Sócrates (footballer) an acceptable title. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:54, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:SMALLDETAILS and Red Slash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Havelock Jones (talk • contribs) 09:09, September 20, 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.