Talk:Nero Claudius Drusus

Information in this article

This article seriously needs to be re-worked. It is based almost completely on the speculation that Drusus is/is not Augustus' son, which is discredited by a number of historians, and backs it up with an alleged rare disease which cannot be proven, nor does it back it up with any references. Even so, the idea itself should not dominate the whole article; the theory about his father is not the most important factor in his life. I think this article needs to delete and re-write a lot of the stuff in this and re-work it. --82.34.129.154 22:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

On this issue: the final sentence of this article reads "Augustus didn't know Livia at the time that Drusus would have been conceived, meaning he couldn't have fathered a child by her." Aside from the fact that, like the rest of the article, this needs to be sourced, it needs far greater explanation given the fact that it would appear to debunk the previous two paragraphs in their entirety. Obviously this issue is worthy of mention, but at the moment it isn't really coherent. Unfortunately I am not an expert in this area and cannot make the changes myself. Rje (talk) 02:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

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"As it is a rare disease, it is unlikely that Germanicus inherited it from his normal-type mother."

The subsection concerning modern genetics contributing to the study of Roman political figures makes for some interesting reading. But I am afraid is far from airtight proof. If this "rare disease" is inherited from the child through either of the parents then Antonia Minor was as likely a carrier as her husband.

Notice that she is a daughter of Octavia who shared both parents with Caesar Augustus. If Augustus inherited the disease from his own parents then Octavia and her descedants aren't very likely to be "normal-type" either. User: Dimadick

Comment from new user: If Claudius had Wilson's Disease, as some of the symptoms suggest, then Drusus would still have to be the link. Otherwise Claudius (and Germanicus) had parents that were not closely related, and thus were unlikely to both be carriers. If Drusus were Augustus' son, then he and Antonia Minor were first cousins. Claudius's diagnosis would be the real key here, not Caligula's.

I don't think Drusus was Augustus son. All of the theory biology aside, the fact that Augustus and Livia had no other children, that Drusus was never give any real special treatment, that Augustus had fatherly affections only for his daughter Julia, that he only adopted her sons... I think the birth cetificate writes itself.

If there was a chance that he was Augustus' son, he would have played in in more political roles rather then just letting him be a general. He only ever acknowleged Julia as his child and favoured her above all of the children despite the fact she was a daughter. If Drusus were his son he wouldn't have needed Julia once he was born. Putting his affections for his daughter aside, his original intention by keeping Julia was so she could have grandsons who Augustus could adopt. He favoured Marcellus and married him to Julia. He favoured Agrippa and married him to Julia. Once Julia's sons by Agrippa died, he made Tiberius adopt Germanicus because he was married to Agrippina (Julia's daughter) and he was Octavia's grandson, not because he was Drusus' son. --Camblunt100 16:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Then why not publicly declare him his son? Why not adopt him or declare him his heir? Why not get rid of Julia (he wouldn't need her)? Augustus didn't accept Drusus and sent him to his father. He relied solely on Julia to provide the heirs. He loved his daughter, not his stepsons. Why favour people like Marcellus? Logically, I think we can fairly say that Augustus didn’t think Drusus was his son… I think he knew that Drusus wasn’t his son because I honestly couldn’t see Livia, the virtuous woman who should have been a vestal virgin, going loose while still married to another man. --82.34.129.26 20:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no way anyone can prove that the Julio-Claudians carried this sickness. The ideas that Drusus was Augustus' son, I believe are simular to the myths that Brutus (and many others) were Caesar's children. I admit that it's more possible that Augustus could have fathered Drusus then the above but I think that the whole rumour was based purely on nasty Roman gossip. The births of Julia and Drusus were a scandal... and Augustus gave Drusus away and kept Julia. --82.34.129.62 15:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

To user: Sorry, but you haven't backed any of the "rare disease" theory with modern historians or ancient sources that alleges symptoms for this, or a modern reference that references them. You can't just base this article on speculation.

I have huge issues with the lack of neutrality of this article regarding Drusus' paternity. There are repeated statements arguing against it. While I am neither a proponent or antoganist to the theory, I should point out, Augustus' claim that the Julia gens and he personally being a member is a very virtuous, family orientated gens would be rubbished if it was revealed he fathered a son from a married woman; and it would destroy Livia's reputation. Also during the pact of Misenum; Livia and Augustus were both in Sicily, I believe.

It would not be surprising if they met; Augustus was only 5 years her senior (compared to her husband's over 20 year seniority); seduction would not have been impossible. Might I suggest instead that we remove the section of paternity and state only that it was speculated at the time; Drusus was Augustus' biological son. I am the Blood 06:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blood3 (talk • contribs)

I am confused about Drusus' name. Since he was adopted by Augustus along with his brother Tiberius into the Julian familly how come his name didn't become Nero Julius Caesar? 82.137.8.124 (talk) 11:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)user

Date of Birth

Date of birth - cf. Ehrenberg and Jones, Documents Illustrating the Reigns of Augustus and Tiberius [Oxford 1955] p.45 (date of Antony's birth), in combination with Suetonius, Life of Claudius c. 11. (Antony and Drusus were both born on 14 January)

28.4.2006 81.190.70.164

Circumstances of Drusus' birth

Here are most of the key texts concerning Livia's marriage to Octavian (17 January 38 BC),

Velleius Paterculus 2.79:

Hac classi Caesar, cum prius despondente ei Nerone, cui ante nupta fuerat Liviam, auspicatis rei publicae ominibus duxisset eam uxorem, Pompeio Siciliaeque bellum intulit.

Velleius [94] Hoc tractu temporum Ti. Claudius Nero, quo trimo, ut praediximus, Livia, Drusi Claudiani filia, despondente Ti. Nerone, cui ante nupta fuerat, Caesari nupserat,

Velleius [95] Reversum inde Neronem Caesar haud mediocris belli mole experiri statuit, adiutore operis dato fratre ipsius Druso Claudio, quem intra Caesaris penates enixa erat Livia.

Suet. Aug. 62:

He divorced her [Scribonia] also, "unable to put up with her shrewish disposition," as he himself writes, and at once (ac statim) took Livia Drusilla from her husband Tiberius Nero, although she was with child at the time; and he loved and esteemed her to the end without a rival.

Dio 48.34.3:

...he was already beginning to be enamoured of Livia..., and for this reason divorced Scribonia the very day she bore him a daughter.

Since the dates of Drusus’ birthday (January 14) and the wedding to Octavian are established, the events can be reconstructed as follows:

1. Simultaneous birth of Julia, and Octavian’s divorce of Scribonia (October 39)

2. Now Tiberius Claudius Nero surrenders Livia (six months pregnant) to Octavian, and there is a betrothal where Nero is actively involved („prius despondente ei Nerone” - Velleius 2.79). Livia now lives with Octavian (Velleius 95, "[Drusum] quem intra Caesaris penates enixa erat Livia")

3. Birth of Drusus (Jan.14). Octavian surrenders the child to Tiberius Claudius Nero.

4. Marriage of Livia and Octavian (Jan 17)

Seen in the context of the above, the passage in Suetonius (V.Claudii 1) is nonsense:

The father of Claudius Caesar, Drusus, who at first had the forename Decimus and later that of Nero, was born of Livia within three months after her marriage to Augustus (for she was with child at the time) and there was a suspicion that he was begotten by his stepfather in adulterous intercourse.

It seems that the „marriage” has been confused with the betrothal, and that the two events were separated by three months.

Dio (48.44.), while giving valuable details, also confuses the betrothal to Octavian, and the marriage (passage underlined):

Besides these occurrences at that time, Caesar married Livia. 44 She was the daughter of Livius Drusus, who had been among those proscribed on the tablet and had committed suicide after the defeat in Macedonia, and the wife of Nero, whom she had accompanied in his flight, as has been related. And it seems that she was in the sixth month with child by him. 2 At any rate, when Caesar was in doubt and enquired of the pontifices whether it was permissible to wed her while pregnant, they answered that it there was any doubt whether conception had taken place the marriage should be put off, but if this was admitted, there was nothing to prevent its taking place immediately. Perhaps they really found this among the ordinances of the forefathers, but certainly they would have said so, even had they not found it. 3 Her husband himself gave the woman in marriage just as a father would; and the following incident occurred at the marriage feast. One of the prattling boys, such as the women keep about them for their amusement, naked as a rule, on seeing Livia reclining in one place with Caesar, and Nero in another with a man, went up to her and said: "What are you doing here, mistress? For your husband," pointing him out, "is reclining over there." 4 So much then, for this. Later, when the woman was now living with Caesar, she gave birth to Claudius Drusus Nero. Caesar both acknowledged him and sent him to his real father, making his entry in his memoranda: "Caesar returned to its father Nero the child borne by Livia, his wife." 5 Nero died not long afterward and left Caesar himself as guardian to the boy and to Tiberius.

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81.190.70.164

More Citations Needed

This article cites almost no references for its content. I am not an expert in the area, otherwise I would make the changes myself. I know that ancient sources are reliable to widely varying degrees, and some discussion of that may be in order. Magic1million (talk) 05:43, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

supposed critical letter read aloud by Tiberius to Augustus and Livia

according to the article:

"Interestingly, soon before his death he wrote a letter to Tiberius complaining about the style in which Augustus ruled. This letter was delivered to Tiberius as he was with Augustus and Livia and when asked if he could read it was told he must read it out loud. He tried to avoid bad parts but Livia saw through his attempt and after reading ordered Drusus back to Rome."

there is no citation for it. it is depicted in I, Claudius. Augustus is not upset with the arguments Drusus makes against the extraordinary powers of Augustus and the obsequiousness of the senatorial order, but Livia clearly takes it as a direct attack on her influencing events from behind the throne as it were. I'm not sure if it's fictional or not, but as there is no source cited it may well be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.167.231 (talk) 07:19, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

This is a scene from "I, Claudius" by Graves, and is fiction.204.116.19.90 (talk) 17:17, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

How did Drusus die?

The article says Drusus died after falling off a horse. I, Claudius says that, but who else does? Not Suetonius. Yopienso (talk) 05:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

See John Hazel's Who's Who In The Roman World, pgs. 99-100. Stated that he died one month after falling from a horse. Oatley2112 (talk) 05:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

See also Barbara Levick's Claudius, pg. 11 Oatley2112 (talk) 05:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Oatley. Do you know on which classical sources they base that? Yopienso (talk) 05:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Livy's Periochae Book 142 states that his horse fell on his leg, causing his death. Oatley2112 (talk) 06:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I've found Smith's dictionary that admits, "Of the numerous writers who mention the death of Drusus, no one besides [Livy] alludes to the broken leg." Smith says Suetonius says Augustus poisoned Drusus, but I can't find that in Suetonius.

Would you care to look at a disagreement about Augustus' adoptive name here? Yopienso (talk) 06:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Yopienso, the poisoning of Drusus by Augustus is mentioned by Suetonius in the Life of Claudius, 1:5, but only in passing as a story that Suetonius reports but does not believe. It would be most unlikely that Augustus would have done this. With regards to Augustus' adoptive name, I made a comment in the talk page early on that his name post adoption should include Octavianus, as this is what others (Cicero, Antony) referred to him as, certainly in the first few years until he had established a power base. Oatley2112 (talk) 09:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh, thanks--I'd meanwhile found the story in Suetonius. And, how could I forget you were participating at Talk: Augustus? I appreciate your kind help! Yopienso (talk) 00:47, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Age at death

@2001:48f8:2a:159b:ec72:1317:8582:8750: Please provide a reference for your assertion that he died at age 41. YoPienso (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Suetonius says he died at age 30.

Barbara Levick says he died at age 29.

Either of these will do; I'm going with Levick. Please don't put in any other date. Thanks, YoPienso (talk) 19:12, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Commemorations

In the course of some recent edits, the following sentences were removed, perhaps by accident:

His family was granted the hereditary honorific title "Germanicus", which was given to his eldest son before passing to his youngest. Augustus later wrote a biography of him which does not survive. By Augustus' decree, festivals were held in Mogontiacum at Drusus' death day and probably also on his birthday.<ref>Suetonius, ''Claudius'' I.1.3</ref>

Unless there's a reason why these shouldn't be restored, I'll do so in the next little while. Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, I didn't see this message previously. I'd moved the info about his title and Augustus' biography to the next paragraph, so the info is still there. I've deleted the repeated note.

Blyndblitz (talk) 19:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

"Drusus Claudius Nero II" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Drusus Claudius Nero II. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 11#Drusus Claudius Nero II until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ★Trekker (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

wasn't his mother a patrician?

the article (second sentence of the first paragraph) says his mother was a plebeian, but Livia's father was a senator, so wouldn't that make her a patrician rather than a plebeian? 2603:6010:95F0:1230:D489:B3D6:7ACA:8349 (talk) 16:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

No. Plebeians could be senators as well, at least since the early Republic.★Trekker (talk) 21:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. I was not aware of that :) 2603:6010:95F0:1230:2835:7A5F:FE90:4859 (talk) 17:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

No problem. 👍★Trekker (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)