Talk:Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire

Requested move 9 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 02:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

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Mongol conquest of Khwarezmia → Mongol invasion of Persia – Until July 2009 the page was Mongol conquest of Central Asia (now a separate article). Then there was an undiscussed rename to this title - see the "Rename" section above, where this was announced (in incomprehensibly poor English, I might add). While technically correct, there is absolutely no way this is the WP:COMMONNAME in English. I'll do an n-gram thing. Ok with Mongol conquest of Iran if that is preferred, but at this period we mostly use "Persia". Actually google trends suggests "invasion" is more common than "conquest", and "Persia" more common than the other names - I'm fine with that. Please state a preference if supporting a move. Johnbod (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 07:03, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

• I'd better do a list. Please specify support for:
• A Mongol conquest of Persia
• B Mongol invasion of Persia (wins on google trends)
• C Mongol conquest of Iran
• D Mongol invasion of Iran
• E Mongol conquest of Khwarezmia (as at present)
• F Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia

I'm essentially ok with A-D, but B seems the best on WP:COMMONNAME grounds. At Category:Invasions by the Mongol Empire one can see both "invasions" and "conquests", but more "invasions" - of course not all invasions were successful, even for the Mongols. Johnbod (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I support move/rename because this articles mentions other regions/cities which were not a part of Khwarazm and the current title is misleading and confusing in my opinion. Does Mongol conquest of Khwarazmian Empire sound good? Just like the other article Mongol conquest of the Qara Khitai which uses the dynasty name rather than the name of region. But if Persia is the most common used term in English sources, then it's OK. --Wario-Man (talk) 15:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Khwarezmia is not Persia. Mongol invasion of Central Asia and Persia is longer but more precise. Ghirla^-трёп- 12:12, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Persia refers to what is now modern Iran and the Khwarzamin empire did not only rule Iran but also Central Asia which was not historically part of Persia. I concur with Wario-Man that the "Mongol conquest of Khwarzamian empire" sounds much better. Akmal94 (talk) 23:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support. Order of preference: A–C–B–D. I'd also support Mongol conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire, but not Mongol invasion of Central Asia and Persia, which would require a merger of three articles. It is true that Khwarezmia is not Persia, but this article is not strictly about Khwarezmia. It is about the Khwarezmian Empire, and Khwarezmia is not a good shorthand. (The real question is whether Persia/Iran is a good shorthand for the Khwarezmian Empire.) I favour "conquest" because this was a successful invasion that was not quickly reversed. Srnec (talk) 01:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 14:20, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

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Mongol conquest of Khwarezmia → Mongol conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire – Clearer about scope. This is not simply about the region of Khwarazmia, but about the fall of an empire. Srnec (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod, Wario-Man, Ghirlandajo, and Akmal94: Pinging participants in the previous RM. Srnec (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support' though 2nd best to the one above. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support' It is not specifically about the Khwarezmia region itself, but the entire territory of the Khwarazmian Empire. Hanberke (talk) 01:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Srnec, Johnbod, Wario-Man, Ghirlandajo, and Akmal94: Khwarezmian or Khwarazmian? Britannica prefers Khwarezm with 530,000 Google hits, where Khwarazm has 394,000 hits. Hanberke (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

No strong views on that point. Johnbod (talk) 18:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

We should match Khwarazmian dynasty until/unless that article is moved. Srnec (talk) 19:08, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Support' The conquest and invasion included all areas of the Khwarzamin Empire so i am okay to the article's name being changed to "Mongol conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire". Akmal94 (talk) 04:57, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support While perhaps "Persia" is used more as a short-hand, this is the most accurate title.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support However, I do think Iran/Persia is the correct term for this, as most of the domain of the Khwarazmian Empire was indeed known as Iran/Persia (Iran being more correct) and was mostly populated by Iranians. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support per my comment on Requested move 9 July 2020. --Wario-Man (talk) 02:40, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title of the historical insident

This topic is recorded in the world history and various books, documents and academic articles as "Mongol invasion of Persia" or "Mongol Conquest of Persia". Therefore I just added this title in the first paragraph of the article with reliable references (published by eg. the Cambridge University Press, University of London, Brill Academic Publishers, etc.) However the user User:HistoryofIran removed all of them with no reason! Please keep the alternative title.--Malekfarugh (talk) 23:16, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

The Khwarezmians stroke first: Battle Near the Irghiz River

It should be noted in the article, after behaeding the second chief ambassador, Shah Muhammad stroke at Subutai at the Battle near the Irghiz River. The first battle is important as it will give readers the better view of the conflict --81.213.215.83 (talk) 04:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

bias

These looser who think themselves historians, they have a problem with the estimates of the Mongol army, even though it comes from their historians, and they have no problem estimating the army of the Khwarizan kingdom at 400,000. Even China did not have such an army. At least Karl made it clear that according to a census made by Hulagu Khan, the entire area of ​​influence of the former Khawarmians empire could not produce more than 5 tomans (each toman is between 5,000 and 10,000) so 40,000 for the army of shah is a figure closer to reality without counting the garrisons and volunteers, That is why the Shah did not want an open battle with the Mongols, because his well trained regular army was few compared to the Mongols, and he preferred to put garrisons with less training and armament in the ccitie Therefore, the reasonable for estimate the Shah’s army was between 40 and 80 thousand, and the Mongols were between 100 and 150 thousand 41.92.98.219 (talk) 12:23, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

End date of the invasion is wrong

The Mongol invasion of of the Khwarazmian Empire didn't end in 1221. In 1229 Ögedei Khagan ascended the throne and ordered to Chormaqan Noyan to attack and occupy The remaining parts of Persia and also defeat Jalal ad-Din Mingburnu. The last conquest Happened in 1254 by Hulagu Khan and leaded to occupation of present-day Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. At Last in 1256 Mongals create a new empire in Persia known as Ilkhanate Empire. if you like you can Read the complete article in Persian page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirfataei (talk • contribs)

It's a common knowledge that this article is rather ambiguous regarding the issues of duration of the Mongol conquest of Khwarazm. Amirfataei makes a claim that the conquest was over with the establishment of the Hulegu's polity in Greater Iran, known as Il-khanate, in 1256. This user also contradicts himself by initially referring to the Khwarazmshah's realm as the Khwarazmian Empire and then calling it Persia. I recall that we've been through this before and it only takes a minute to scroll up this page and see walls of text where we happened to reach a consensus that Khwarazmian Empire was not Persia despite the latter's frequent usage in several sources. Moreover, Wikipedia's well cited article on the Khwarazmian Empire offers us the year 1231 as the year of disestablishment of the aforementioned polity. As is well known, that year coincides with the year of death of the last Khwarazmshah Jalal al-Din Mangubardi.

Historians Andrew Peacock and David Morgan give us the year 1223 as a final year of the Conquest, which can be inferred from the following passage in Chapter 14 of the book - Ferdowsi, the Mongols and the History of Iran (2013):

He (Juzjani) had himself been present during the Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmshah's empire in 1219-1223. He did not like what he saw, and he departed to the safe sanctuary of the Delhi Sultanate..

That's a good food for thought. However, personally, I am inclined to agree with historian Timothy May, who happens to be an expert in this area and is a professor of Central Eurasian history at the University of North Georgia, USA. He is also the author of a number of articles, chapters and books including The Mongol Art of War (2007), Culture and Customs of Mongolia (2009), and The Mongol Conquests in World History (2012). Mr. May particularly states on page 162 of his book - The Mongol Empire: A Historical Encyclopedia (2016), the following,

... he (Genghis Khan) led his main army over 1,000 miles to invade the Khwarazmian Empire in 1219. Within two years, a once dynamic and powerful empire has been erased from the map and largely forgotten in history.

So my stance on this issue is to leave the year when the Mongol conquest was complete as it was. Any thoughts, Wario-Man, HistoryofIran, Srnec?--Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 12:18, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The date 1256 is certainly wrong for an article titled "Mongol conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire". The problem is that Mongol conquest of Iran redirects here. We have no article on the larger process of the Mongol conquest of all Iran (and not just the invasions that finished off the Khwarazmian Empire). Routledge's The Mongol World has a chapter "The Mongol Conquest of Iran" by Beatrice Forbes Manz. She divides the conquest into three periods: 1219–1224, 1231–???? and 1251–1256. We already have Mongol campaign against the Nizaris. Srnec (talk) 19:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Srnec. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:51, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Srnec's points are certainly valid and should be addressed. On the topic of the end-date (1221 vs. 1223) I am inclined towards the former, purely on lexical grounds, which also indicate a greater problem within the topic. I am of the opinion that the page should be renamed Mongol invasion of the Khwarazmian Empire, since the Mongols, although invading and looting nearly all of the Khwarazmid territory, did not actually conquer it. The word conquest should only be used where the assumption of control is intended and actually implemented - in the case of Khwarazmian territories, it is only relevant with regard to Ferghana and the neighbouring regions. Thoughts HistoryofIran Visioncurve? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:44, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Moreover, two reputable historians whom I regard personally as experts in the history of Mongols both employed the word "invasion" (see above). So, I guess, yeah, that seems to be the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle. --Visioncurve^{Timendi causa est nescire} 13:59, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes that's also a good point, I agree. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:10, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Hallo Users Wario-Man, HistoryofIran, Srnec. You mentioned good points. Unfortunately there is no articles about the Mongol invasion of Iran. But even if we write this article specifically for Khwarazmian Empire, we have to consider 1231 as the end date because after Muhammad II's death in 1221 Jalal ad-Din He stood against the Mongol army for About ten years and during this time he was the King. In the Persian books those are written about Mongol invasion and history commonly he historian consider 1231 as the Overthrow of Khwarazmian and Mogols absolute victory. Amirfataei (talk) 07:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry, but the sources mentioned above does not consider that as the end date. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

There are in fact several articles about the Mongol invasion of Iran, as you yourself pointed out on my talk page, and have been mentioned above. Jalal al-Din's 'resistance' against the Mongols was a) not for the control of his father's empire, which had fallen apart in the early 1220s; b) was not so much as a 'resistance' as a warlord's petty squabbles. I have set up Mongol conquest of Persia as an all-encompassing page for the Mongol conquest of Persia (the term Iran is not commonly used in the 13th century). Please contribute there—it urgently needs your attention.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Number of Deaths

Here it says 10-15 million dead but it doesn’t really make sense considering most sources put the Khwarazmian empire population at 5 million, there is another wiki page on “Mongol Conquest of Central Asia” where it states that 1,7 million civilians were killed in the empire, which is pretty far off from the one here, hope someone can explain it better.186.208.220.33 (talk) 03:58, 11 February 2024 (UTC)