Talk:List of members of the 16th National Assembly of Pakistan

Runner-ups

Do we really need to mention runner-up candidates in the table? We never did before. @SheriffIsInTown and Borgenland: Saqib (talk) 17:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I just copied it from the 2018 election page since I did not have the time to make a table from scratch. Won't mind a revision as long as there's a consensus. See the talk also at the 2024 page for one other proposal. Borgenland (talk) 17:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It was copied from the other page, we should standardize it same as historical lists.

PS. Welcome back, we missed you this election cycle. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Alternative results

Due to the large amount of reported fraud, would it be worth including on this page the media-reported Form 45s for all the constituencies that have them? I know it is not exactly relevant to this page with the title, but it could be moved to a "Results of the 2024 Pakistani general election" page instead. Especially since this page is breaking from the last election page's precedent in the table design/results, with 2018 having the current table on the main page. Would be interested to hear what people think, Quinby (talk) 19:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

@Quinnnnnby: Yes indeed it would be interesting to include information about the original Form 45s. However, I was unable to find coverage in RS about them. Have you come across any? --Saqib (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Amjad Ali Khan

The Amjad Ali Khan elected to NA-2 Swat-I isn’t the Amjad Ali Khan whose page is linked. They have the same name, same party, and are from the same district, but they aren’t the same people.

The linked page is about the former MPA who was re-elected to the KP Assembly on Feb 8. The MNA-elect, on the other hand, contested as a candidate of the PPP in 2018 from NA-2 and joined the PTI a few months ago.

Source: https://www.dawn.com/news/amp/1807192

@SheriffIsInTown Muzzzmuzzmuzzz (talk) 23:47, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Muzzzmuzzmuzzz Was this NA individual ever elected before? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:17, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

No, I don’t believe so Muzzzmuzzmuzzz (talk) 00:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, thank you for finding that out. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 00:55, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Sunni Ittehad Council

@SheriffIsInTown, @Muzzzmuzzmuzzz and @ Saqib, Many Independents have transferred to the Sunni Ittehad Council. Titan2456 (talk) 22:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

OK but we should not simply label them as SIC members, but rather as PTI-backed SIC members, similar to what we did on the main election page. --Saqib (talk) 17:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@SheriffIsInTown: After this, I'm uncertain if now is the right time to re-open this, but despite some semblance of consensus here– even if you don't acknowledge it as such – the majority was in favor of labeling PTI-backed independent candidates as such. However, you still referred to them as member of SIC here. I would say if not PTI-backed independent candidates, I insist we label them as PTI backed SIC. I hope you don't perceive this as an attempt to open a new content dispute with you. --Saqib (talk) 17:11, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I have edited and updated the List of Political parties page for the 2024 elections. In the members of parliament section, there is a solution to this issue by adding a footnote. See the page for how the problem is fixed.There are basically two footnotes (b) and (c),where the Sunni Ittehad and PTI are, where the issue is explained in the Members of Parliament section. Titan2456 (talk) 17:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

This presents a distinct issue, as you previously mentioned in another discussion that a consensus from a prior election does not extend to the current election page. Similarly, any consensus from another page should not automatically apply to this page. Additionally, while the election page primarily focuses on reporting the state of Election Day, this is a list of members, and it should accurately reflect their official status as NA members, which is SIC. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

No, it wasn't me who stated that a consensus from a prior election does not extend to the current election page. Anyways, it appears I 've to reopen this discussion as well because I still disagree with you on this. You have your opinion, and I have mine, and I believe we need to follow WP:NPOV based on independent RS. But not at this moment, maybe some time later because It's not the end of the world. --Saqib (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Membership changes

As I haven't been following this page closely, so I'm not sure which candidates were initially declared as winners in the election but later lost the seat or vacated it. However, it would be useful to include all such cases in Membership changes section, just like we did here Can you help? @SheriffIsInTown: Saqib (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm organizing it by spanning the lines. I believed it would be more effective than having a separate section. For an example, you can check Maryam Nawaz's constituency. Furthermore, in my modest view, the outcome of NA-81 would not be regarded as a membership alteration; instead, it would be seen as the initial result being incorrect which got rectified during the recount. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 21:15, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Chaudhry Bilal Ijaz was declared winner as per RS, took oath, and participated in NA sessions. Despite later being declared a loser in a recount, let's keep him in the table for the sake of record. If in the future, someone else loses their NA seat due to a recount, we'll follow the same procedure. If he hadn't taken the oath, having him in the list wouldn't make sense, but given the circumstances, it does now. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 21:04, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Technically, he still holds the status of a MNA. The ECP has not yet denotified him yet, and his opponent has not taken the oath yet. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 21:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Individuals who lost election during recount

@Saqib You keep adding individuals who lost election during a recount despite my removal of them a couple of times. It seems like you do not agree with my assertions. When an individual loses an election during a recount, it is assumed that they were never elected thus their oath does not hold any value and it is considered that they were never a member. It is a matter of commonsense holds precedence over any policy. Kindly remove Bilal Ijaz and Faraz Noon from the list. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:06, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

And what harm would it do to keep them on the list, for the sake of record? --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 22:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

To maintain accuracy, if individuals meet the notability criteria outlined in WP:GNG, it's appropriate to mention them in either the constituency article or their individual article. However, they should not be included in this list since they were never elected members, which would be factually incorrect. Simply arguing about potential harm is not valid; using that logic, anything could be listed without considering its accuracy or relevance. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Given that they took oaths and assumed offices, I believe they should remain in the list. We can add notes/remarks for clarification. However, if you strongly believe they should be removed, I have no objection, as of now. I've a question, though. Suppose after a year or so, another MNA is declared the loser and their opponent is declared the winner in a recount. How would you approach that situation? --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 08:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Losers emerge victorious in recount. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 09:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I doubt it will take them a year to complete the recount. Has this ever happened before? Recounts happen in every election and results change as well. Considering your past coverage of elections, how have you typically handled this situation? Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 09:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

See 14th NA nembership changes. However, this list is not really complete. I wasn't closely monitoring who lost their seat in the recount. Nevertheless, there are instances where some initial winner became ineligible. This time, it's notable because even PTI acknowledged the possibility of losing more seats in the recount. Therefore, I believe it's important to mention them for the sake of NPOV. --—Saqib (talk | contribs) 09:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Losing a seat through disqualification is different than losing it in recount, in second instance it means the winner who became loser actually got less votes on Election Day. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 09:55, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

PTI or SIC

@SheriffIsInTown I was unaware that someone did this before and I didn't mean to undo your move, though the National Assembly website isn't updated and hasn't been since the SCP decision, the website takes a while to update, I have cited Dawn for the 39 MNAs. Titan2456 (talk) 02:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

It was updated, changing 39 to PTI and the rest to independents, but after passing the act, they reverted the change. Essentially, they have reversed the SCP decision in their records. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't recall the NA website being updated, but if you are sure that the official NA website turned 39 seats to PTI then changed it back to SIC then I would support reverting it. Titan2456 (talk) 02:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I was certain that they implemented the ECP notification initially and updated the NA website, after passing the new election act, they changed them back to SIC, if I was not certain, I would not let SIC to PTI change stand for nineteen days, I would have reverted Saqib immediately. Furthermore, SCP and ECP decisions do not matter if they are not implemented on the ground. For this type of content, our main source should be NA website, if you think it takes them a while to update then you should wait for a while to update the article. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 03:54, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, NA never updated its website; I just confirmed this with their secretariat. If anyone has archived evidence of NA updating the SIC to PTI, please share it so I can prove those liars wrong. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 14:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

They made the update, and you can verify the last updated date and time at the bottom of the page. That's why I didn't raise any objections to the change in any of the articles, including this one. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

SheriffIsInTown, They update their website on daily basis, so that's irrelevant here. Please provide evidence showing that they updated the website from SIC to PTI. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 15:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

They updated it after ECP notification, they created a separate page where they had 39 PTI seats, they changed the count to 0 again after the new legislation. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:09, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

While we are discussing here what are we supposed to do for the 25 suspended reserved seats Titan2456 (talk) 20:17, 17 August 2024 (UTC)