Talk:Henri Lafont

"the Belgian Lambrecht"

Having trouble identifying this person, supposedly a leader in the Belgian Resistance. Will try jStor later Elinruby (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

saw a mention of him as the head of the Belgian Resistance. No source to expand from yet. Elinruby (talk) 03:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Godfather video

The French article cites an extremely well-produced documentary which is however hosted on YouTube. Is there another link for this documentary? Because otherwise how do we know it's up there with permission? I think we need to do, and document, some due diligence on this. I previously raised similar concerns about the video used in 2023 Brazil Congress attack. Those turned out to be unfounded; while the videos were flagged at on Commons as "Creative Commons license not verified", the OP was able to show that the producer of the video (a public broadcaster maybe?) was known to make their content freely available, and a Dianna shortly thereafter ruled that the license was comparable. But I think I was right to ask the question, because if this ever were to become an issue now there is documentation that the question was asked and the license was verified. So.

I believe the onus is on us to demonstrate that the YouTube video is not a copyvio, even if in this case we are merely quoting it, not hosting it. I am asking the question. The documentation for Template:Cite AV media says, in big letters:

Do not use this template to cite material that violates copyright law. Citations to such material must either be replaced with a non-copyvio source or removed immediately.

The same question applies to it as RS, really. The first narrator to appear is Grégory Auda, author of one of the books the French article relies on, so it seems to me that there is a pretty big presumption of RS, but this is normally a matter of the publisher, no? The film company has an entry at IMDb, but no Wikipedia article, although they do appear to be well-established. It would be good however to document whether they have won any awards, or anything else that might go to reliability.

To he clear, I *want* to use this video. I've been through it a couple of times and it covers almost all of the unsourced statements in the article. It's just that I have never cited a YouTube video before, and as a rule of thumb I question them when I see them. It is safe to say that if the video is cited more than it already is, it *will* be questioned and that's even before there is any question of promoting the article. Elinruby (talk) 20:09, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

i asked about this and got a blank stare, which I am taking to mean that I am overthinking things again and of course we can cite a video. I am fairly certain that what is on YouTube is an unedited copy of what ran on French public television, so the timestamps should be the same, and maybe it's out there published by esomeone who seems to have some rights to it. Meanwhile, the timestamps I added today are good give or take reaction time, say 5 seconds. Which is good, because it covers some of the broader and more surprising statements, like Lafont as the most influential man in Paris at the time.

As for the reliable source question, anything this well-produced that was broadcast on French public television clearly wasn't made by some rando with a web cam.

The film has three narrators, each of whom is the author of one or more items in the bibliography, which seems pretty dispositive to me. Elinruby (talk) 01:20, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Muhammad al-Maadi

Correct spelling of name on fr.wiki; has article there Elinruby (talk) 02:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

"Correct" in French, maybe, but we romanize differently in English than the French do; if we want to be a stickler for correctness, then it's محمد المعادى. (Note that on this page this is rendering with his first name to the left of his last name, although in the wikicode it's in normal, Arabic, RTL order.) Mathglot (talk) 08:26, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure, correct in French. He has come up a couple of times and I was having trouble matching the name. This is a note to self that moved over here from my sandbox. Probably it will wind up being an ILL, but I honestly don't care how we transliterate to English;feel free to edit that if it seems like a good idea to do so.

In a related note, I grumbled somewhere about the Carlingue being a gang not a militia (which would be the milice, right?). The Carlingue actually did however morph into a right-wing militia, which is how Villaplane became a war criminal. That wasn't afaik known as the Carlingue though. I have an uneasy feeling that I might be the person who did this back when we were working on Liberation of France. If the confusion is present it needs to be fixed, though, right? Our article on Carlingue also says it was started by the Germans (which conceivably is true on the money level) but the French Gestapo article I am translating from says otherwise. Just noting something to come back to. Elinruby (talk) 15:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

English article turns out to be Muhammad al-Maadi also. I have no opinion on the correctness of this transliteration but am going to use that link for the sake of simplicity. If somebody wants to pipe it to something else or move the article I am fine with whatever seems best.

Also, another note on "militias maybe?", Honneur de la Police is a dab page about two possible police groups today, one right-wing and one left. Both of these are different from the putative group discussed in Henri Lafont, so we shouldn't link to that. And I have forgotten what a cagoule is. Right-wing militia? Elinruby (talk) 16:32, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

See question about what is a militia at al-Maadi article. Yes Cagoule is a right-wing group, probably should be called a militia, reasonable article exists though. International Brigade should be better explained Elinruby (talk) 17:52, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Transcription

from parrain, so well put we should find a place for it. Auda is speaking about why the Nazis recruited from the milieu: "passer d'ennemi de la société a traitre, le pas est relativement facilement franchi pour ces gens, que la moralité n'étouffe pas." (Around the 5 minute mark, from memory, needs to be checked and translated.' Elinruby (talk) 17:29, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: That's at 5:19:

Et donc, evidemment, passer de l'ennemi de la société à traitre, finalement le pas est aisement franchissable; pour ces gens que la morale ne l'etouffe pas.

And I'd translated it as:

So, clearly, to go from public enemy to traitor—that's an easy step to take, for the type of person who isn't constrained by having a conscience.

Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 03:05, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Translate

Courtesy link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ2N0fFd94w

"la très très haute voyoucratie" (parrain, 15:40) Elinruby (talk) 19:45, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

"thugocracy"? Elinruby (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby:, Yes, very good choice; see for example, Thugocracy: bandit regimes and state capture. Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

"Cream of the underworld" a good translation for what immediately follows Elinruby (talk) 19:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Original: on est tout de suite dans cette crème de milieu : Yes, I'd say your translation is a good one. Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

17:45;Ausweis Elinruby (talk) 21:22, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

ID, for which they use the French word carton as slang. (Not "box", as the stupid subtitles would have it.) Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

45:12 "un petsonnage tout en gris" --Joanovici Elinruby (talk) 03:49, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't hear anything like that at 45:12. Maybe somewhere else? Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

on avait besoin de tueurs, on a embauché des tueurs 47:30 Elinruby (talk) 03:55, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

The subtitles are correct: "we needed killers, so we hired killers". Mathglot (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok

These are available for references then. I will check the times on Joanovici quote. That is indeed a very good source, thanks for finding it. The timestamps are time-consuming to find but it's *such* a good narration its very worthwhile. There is another one I am looking for where Auda is talking about when the Germans were buying anything of value at any price, no questions asked: "Alors, vous pouvez vous imaginer la faune," he says.

And yeah, the captions don't always correspond, although I hadn't seen them be wrong. But for example "flic" (cop) became "policier".

Incidentally I saw and noted the solution to timestamps in named references, thanks for that.Elinruby (talk) 02:53, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

oh hey wait are your subtitles in English? Elinruby (talk) 02:57, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but they can range from decent to ultra-crap. Mathglot (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2023 (UTC)