Talk:Grand tourer

Merge

This article and Gran Turismo should probably be merged. // Liftarn — Preceding undated comment added 09:45, 11 October 2004 (UTC)

merged and cleaned up .... they contradict quite badly : Drgonzo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.57.32.250 (talk) 14:46, 10 June 2005 (UTC)

Lancia Kappa Coupe?

Would the coupe version of Lancia's former flagship, the Kappa, produced from 1994 to 2001 qualify as a GT? It was luxurious and could easily make very light work of very long distances - plus, it was comfortable and fast, especially in the 2.0 turbocharged and 3.0 V6 guises. Elp gr (talk) 17:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Ford GT?

Despite the name, I think the Ford GT is really stretching the definition of a Grand Tourer...it's really more of a pure Sports car, and doesn't really fit with this line from the article: Grand tourers differ from sports cars in that they are usually larger, heavier and tend to make less compromise in comfort for the sake of driving ability.. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 15:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure of that opinion, although it doesn't fit perfectly, the GT40 (after which the modern GT is based) was designed SPECIFICALLY to win in GT racing, to beat lamborgini (might be Ferarri, i get em mixed up ocaisionally) after they snubbed them. Thus as a car designed specifically for the sport revolved around grand touring, i'd say it fits perfectly

Ford GT is not a GT car as GT cars have front mounted engines, long hoods, and comfortable suspension. Ford GT is none of the above. Ford GT is a supercar --Homestar300zx 16:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Ford GT is based after one, but it isn't in itself. Stooffi 20:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ford GT is a homage to the original GT40 racer of the sixties, which was built by Ford simply because they were thwarted in their bid to buy Ferrari, and wanted revenge. The racer came to be known as GT40, but the actual name of the race car was 6T40. As the 2003 Ford GT was built to pay homage to a racer, it is by no stretch of imagination a GT car. It is not stretchin the definition of grand tourer, it is actually misusing the term Grand Tourer. A lot of cars have names bearing the letters GT, as the Golf GTi, but that does not necessarily mean they are Grand Tourer. Sayantan.z28 (talk) 14:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The Ford GT40 was originally intended for the Le Mans 24 Hours race, which was again, originally, for grand touring (GT) cars. The race was intended as an endurance race suited for the characteristics of a touring car, i.e., long distances at high speed. GT cars were originally designed for wealthy people who took touring holidays - hence the name - and drove long distances across Europe often staying in high-class hotels in places such as Monte Carlo - the South of France was a very popular holiday destination for the European well-off after World War II. This period also coincided - for the UK - with the introduction of the Air ferry which made taking one's car abroad to the continent much quicker.

So a GT was really a sports car optimised not just for handling as such, but also for travelling long distances at high speed with more comfort for the occupants - usually four - than a sports car - which could only usually accommodate two. It also tended to have at least some space for luggage, generally enough for a weekend stay. At least initially, the cars tended to be aimed at the better-off and cost considerably more. The best examples I can think of of a 'classic' GT car ATM would be the Aston Martin DB5 and Aston Martin DB6 but Ferrari also made GT's as did Lancia and Alfa Romeo.

Other countries did make 'GT' cars but the above is the original Raison d'être - it coincided with the post-war introduction of the motorway, autostrada and (pre-war) autobahn across Europe. These initially IIRC had no speed limits - as the Autobahn still hasn't - so a GT car would be expected to be able to cruise at say, 70 mph and above, all day without complaint. There was very little motorway traffic around back then so one could do that to a greater extent than one can today.

It was because GT cars tended to be classier and expensive that the fictional James Bond had an Aston Martin as with a car like that he could associate with wealthy, powerful people, at places such as Monte Carlo, Monaco, etc., which in some parts tended to be 'snobbish'. If he had turned up in a Frogeye Sprite or MG Midget (admirable as they no doubt are) in the 50s or 60s at some places he'd have been shown the door.

BTW, on some GT cars you see the designation "2+2" - this originally meant it would take two adults and two children. That's why the rear seats are often so cramped - they were intended for the kids - mum and dad up front, the kids in the back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.208.91 (talk) 20:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

GTR

Needs to have a section, or separate page, on the GT racers.... Trekphiler 02:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Shouldnt the Lancia Aurelia B20 be mentioned, widely considered the first GT car — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smackerjack (talk • contribs) 20:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

3 Series as a GT car

Dear members,

I would like to request that the 3 series coupes be added back under the GT car section. I was told that the 3 series should not be included due the fact that it is considered "low powered." Unfortuntely, this to me seems more of an opinion rather than a fact, and the new E92 coupes stray away from this further considering the 335i coupe has 300 hp and the E92 M3 will have 425hp outputs. The definition presented in this PARTICULAR entry, explains nothign about power being a determining factor other than the statement of "high performance." I do honestly believe that while old model E46's like the 325Ci may not fit a the definition of a grand tourer, higher performance vehicles such as the 330Ci, M3, the new 335i Coupe, and the upcoming M3 will surely fit the definition pound for pound within this article! Also, note that size is not a determining factor either, but as far as weight goes, we all should know that the 3 series coupes do weigh in at approximately 3500 pounds. They seem to me, like an "entry" or "beginning" level GT car.

Please let me know what you think and I will be happy to add it back in there! Also, if you want, I can specifically state that we are referring to the NEW more powerful E92 models. Thank you! --128.95.141.33 23:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should've been more specific. The new 3-series is indeed a very quick automobile. Then again, current Toyota Camry's are faster than some Porsches from the 80s! I think of the 3-series as a luxury sport sedan or sport coupe (though in Europe, 3-series aren't considered to be as luxurious as they are in the US). Most of the other entries in the article are from the higher-end ranges, but engineered for highway cruising versus the track. (I don't think any of them would cost less than $50,000 US adjusted for current dollars). What would be helpful is if we could find a few sources that more definitively set some parameters for what defines a GT car. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Followup I reverted my changes after finding a reference supporting your claim that the 335i coupe is considered (at least by one Car and Driver writer) to be a grand tourer. Here's a Google search that searches for "grand tourer" among three major auto magazines. I noticed that there were a few sub-50k USD cars mentioned, like the new Mitsubishi GT and the Infiniti G35. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Great catches guys. I think that the 335i Coupe is very appropriate here. I also feel that we should not include the G35 and the Mitsubishi GT considering the fact that we are using a bit of a "price" requirement of at least 50 thousand and up to be included, and it looks like Jamie did the right thing by just adding the 335i. I think sports coupe fits the 330Ci and the earlier models, but the new one I can definitely see as a GT. --24.16.63.142 01:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

A5/S5/3er/M3/CLK

I think there should be a general agreement that although they are small coupes with 2 doors, the 3-series, M3, Audi A4 and A5 and the Mercedes CLK are not comfortable enough to be long distance GT cars, however much their lightness helps their performance compared to fatter cars. The Audi A5 should be removed from the list. The Volvo v70 and Alfa GT dont qualify either. --81.105.245.251 16:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

One year later, this issue is still unsolved. Most grand tourers are Italian and British, ie Aston Martin, Bentley, Jaguar, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and smaller marques (not all their models, of course). Other than them, the few models I would classify as such are the BMW 6 and 8 Series and the Merc CL and SL. I know little about cars older than me. However, I doubt that I would call any Japanese or American sports car as a grand tourer. I'll remove models (done) that certainly aren't grand tourers. --NaBUru38 (talk) 23:23, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

A "Grand Tourer" is a Grand Tourer

Saab 93 LeMans spec.

A Grand Tourer is a specific type of automobile, even if there is variation among the breed. It is a high-powered, luxurious, comfortable two-seat coupe or 2+2 intended for high-speed long-distance driving in both comfort and style.

Just because a manufacturer appends "GT" or some permutation of it to a model as a marketing gambit does not make that automobile a Grand Tourer - which is the title of the article and the subject for its content.

Please do not continue adding Volkswagon Golfs and Saab 750s and other quintessential non-Grand Tourers to the list, no matter if they have a form of "GT" in their names. On the other hand, do feel free to remove any marginal entries remaining which are not in keeping with the true heritage of Grand Tourers as captured in the article. Cheers. Wikiuser100 (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually the SAAB GT750 (and GT850) are true Gt cars in every sense of the word.[1] // Liftarn (talk)

It was NOT. Saab never had the panache, the flair or the image to make a true Grand Tourer. It is a brand whose past classified it as an ECONOMY brand and later it became quasi-premium. None of its cars could be considered a true Grand Tourer; and please, don't mention the current ones (the Opel Vectra- and Opel Insignia-based ones), because you'll lose all credibility in this field. Elp gr (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to remove sections of the article just because you feel that way. // Liftarn (talk) 22:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

The SAAB GT750 is a high performance (sortof) coupé with 2+2 seating that participated in long distance races like Le Mans.[2] It even participated in the FIA GT Cup[3][4] In what way isn't a GT car? // Liftarn (talk) 18:07, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren?

Although this car lies somewhere between been a GT car and a racer i believe it still has enough qualities to be considered as a GT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.45.229 (talk) 12:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Classic example of "sports" vs "GT" that were never labeled that way.

Datsun (Nissan) models from the 70's

The S30 (240z, 260z and 280z) is a two seater that doesn't pretend to be anything other than a light, compact sports coupe even after gaining more "luxury" features over time. It's undeniably a quick fun car but isn't what most reasonable people would call relaxing to drive over long distances at speed.

In comparison, it's GRS30 sister car (260z 2+2 and 280z 2+2, aka 2/2 JDM) is what the GT version should be. It's heavier, longer, normally fitted with more options and a little roomier. To make it even better, it's actually easier to enter/exit because of the longer doors! On the road it's a less tiring car principally because the longer wheelbase induces less pitch.

There's good argument that the GRS30 couldn't be a GT because it's not a "luxury car" but how do we define "luxury"? That is a very individual assessment which some will relate to price tag, others to a nice leather interior and yet others to lots of chrome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aarc240 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

GTO - Definition v. Use

As the article states, the technical definition of a 'GTO' is a car homologated for use in motorsport. The Ferrari 599 GTO, despite being given the GTO moniker, does not meet that technical definition. 'GTO' in the case of the Pontiac and Mitsubishi models may similarly be misused, so perhaps the technical definition should be expanded or accompanied by discussion of this use of 'GTO' for vehicles not intended for homologation for motorsport. A better example than the given 599, in the interim, might be the Ferrari 250 GTO or 288 GTO, as both of these were built for homologation purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.195.98.94 (talk) 04:20, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Porsche 911

The article states: "Grand tourers emphasize comfort and handling over straight-out high performance or spartan accommodations." So the 911/Boxster are Sports cars. The 928 is a GT. 911 does not belong here. PLawrence99cx (talk) 19:05, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

911 seems to be commonly misplaced and argued over which category it belongs in. It most definitely is a grand tourer in certain configurations and sports car in other set ups. Some 911 models are even considered super cars. For you to group all 911's into a single category makes you a little naive on the subject. If you think what Im saying is off base then please explain why the 911 is the benchmark for all high performance categories. 66.226.104.234 (talk) 02:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Volkswagen Golf not a Grand Tourer

It's a bit shocking to be reading an article on grand tourers and come across the picture of a 1982 Volkswagen Golf GTi (Mk1), especially because the caption doesn’t make it clear that it’s not a real grand tourer by any stretch of the imagination. Some readers may miss the section that says “Many vehicles that are not actually gran turismo use this appellation to increase sales,” and therefore they’ll be left with the false impression that a Volkswagen Golf is a grand tourer. Don’t you think it would be suitable to put something like “1982 Volkswagen Golf GTi (Mk1); an example of a false gran turismo.” in the caption to prevent confusion and misinformation? (Hindsighter (talk) 02:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC))

1993-2002 SS Camaro / Pontiac Firehawk

The SLP SS-Camaro and Firehawk should be considered Grand Tourer cars since they have significant handling, RWD, and 2+2 configuration with additional storage in the hatch and are very comfortable for cross-country travel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mikecronis (talk • contribs) 00:38, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Got sources? // Liftarn (talk)

Revision

A grand touring car is for touring in the grand manner. For travelling in a Very Fast (therefore very expensive) car with no real luggage space except maybe for her handbag (all of it moving very fast) and a big car with luggage following behind or ahead or . . . (or a big aircraft or private jet). All done purely for the pleasure of the driving and any scenery that might get noticed and the knowledge that the driver is a most superior human being. I do not see how Golf GTIs or marvellous little Fiat Balillas can be considered Grand tourers, they are cleverly designed warmed up economy cars are they not?

A supercar with a beautifully finished interior would be the current equivalent. Eddaido (talk) 06:01, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Balillas and GTIs

Eddaido's definition of a "Grand Tourer" fits very well with authors/historians such as Sam Dawson, and with an "Anglo" point of view (and also with the French "Grand Routiere" concept, refer for example Stobbs). However this viewpoint does not account for the works of Wood, Vack et al. A wider view of the "Gran Turismo" concept must also take in its predominantly Italian origins and evolution, of which both pre- and post-war Fiat-based berlinettas such as the Balilla, SIATA and Cisitalia are the most obvious and representative, but far from only, examples. (See also the pre-war Alfa-Romeo and BMW aerodynamic coupes.) Vitally important too, to understanding these origins and subsequent evolution, are the influence of racing and particularly the Mille Miglia. The original Italian "Gran Turismo" was far more an "enclosed sports car" than it was a "tourer in the grand manner".

In fact, in my own view, a careful examination of the naming of various models of Alfa Romeo 6C strongly suggest that the "Gran Turismo" (subsequently "Grand Touring") nomenclature was a happy accident rather than a direct reference to touring in the grand manner. Hint: Gran Prix, Sport, Super Sport, Gran Sport, Turismo, Gran Turismo. This nomenclature was contemporary for Jano, Lurani and Ferrari all. This however would be original research and not admissable here. Will simply leave for your consideration.

All these cars and concepts lead inexorably (as the images, particularly, relate; a picture is worth a thousand words after all) to the Lancia Aurelia B20GT which "everyone" agrees is the definitive genesis of the Grand Touring car. It would be a very strange and lacking narrative indeed that begins with the Aurelia GT popping into existence from 'nowhere'. The Coppa Inter-Europa and Campianato Gran Turismo Internazionale, for example, are contemporary with the development of English notions of the "Grand Tourer" (see Bristol and Healey; and also pre-war enclosed Bentleys which could usefully be added to the Wiki). These concepts are now quite well covered and cited in this wiki, and are properly considered all together in my view, although a pre-war "Grand Routiere" section might be useful as well (perhaps including the explanation that post-war French tax policies effectively killed the concept off).

"GTi"s etc, are a vitally important part of the puzzle of the subsequent dissemination and dilution of the original and various "GT" concepts into both popular (and particularly) commercial culture. These are an important piece of the narrative too (however unpleasant to aficionados, among which I count myself, humbly) and especially to Wiki readers who might come here hoping to gain an understanding of the "GT badge" they remember on their Dad's old Cortina (and/or Falcon if you're an antipodean, GTHO anybody?). I'm planning an additional section for this Wiki which recounts this history, particularly Ford's "Total Performance" era with the Mustang and Capri GTs which started the dissemination, and the Toyota 2000 GT (recently sold for $1.2 million!) and Datsun/Nissan 240Z which carried it on (refer Wood, for example).

Additionally pending sections expanding for example on the evolution of Aston Martin grand tourers will further round out the grand "Anglo-centric" concept too.

An encyclopedic article must take in the whole history, not just our personal favorites.

Steve Limpus (talk) 23:27, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Referenced but absolute Tosh

"a tribute to the aristocratic horse-drawn tradition of the grand tour, used to represent automobiles regarded as grand tourers, able to make long-distance, high-speed journeys in both comfort and style." Eddaido (talk) 01:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Partly agreed Eddaido, sort of. "Tosh" is a bit inflammatory, but anyhoo, lol. :-) The references and citations here though, aren't "tosh", rather, they're self-explanatory. Where I do agree with you is that the nomenclature "Gran Turismo" is highly unlikely to be (originally at least) a reference to the anglo-centric notion of the horse-drawn "Grand Tour".

As hinted above, by my own research, "Gran Turismo" was simply a designation Alfa Romeo chose for what they had called prior to 1929/1930 their "Sport" model. Although Alfa did provide carrozzeria, most was outworked: so the "Gran Turismo" was really a chassis and engine tune specification -- it was dual-purpose road/race, middling spec between the "Turismo" and "Gran Sport" specifications. There is a logical sequence from Sport, Super Sport to Gran Sport in Alfa's previous designations, no doubt taking advantage of the marketing cachet of the "Gran Prix" cars. The sequence Turismo (an existing specification) to Gran Turismo is equally obvious is it not? I don't imagine there was anyone at Alfa that would have given a fig at that time for the British horse-drawn "Grand Tour"? Exact details though, are sadly lacking in english-language literature. It probably didn't seem ALL that important at the time, even in Italy.

Of the 6C 1750 GTs, the most influential were the Mille Miglia "closed sports car"-class-winning berlinettas by Touring (see article). Being watched by millions of racing enthusiasts and virtually every red-blooded young (and not-so-young) Italian male, let alone being drop-dead gorgeous to look at, the Berlinettas could hardly have been LESS influential. Sure enough, SIATA took up the concept for the 1933 Mille Miglia on the Balilla chassis, and Fiat themselves joined the party in 1935. Alfa Romeo and BMW significantly followed suit with their own Le Mans and Mille Miglia enclosed sports cars in the later 1930s. Johnny Lurani was sufficiently impressed to write in glowing terms about them. (Interestingly, the Brits virtually "stole" the BMW 328 coupe after the war to create their own Bristol grand tourer, which we'll get to soon.)

After the war, Cisitalia repeated the Fiat-based enclosed sports car theme with the 202 SC. Pininfarina nailed the coachwork, setting a new trend for all automotive design, not just GTs. The 202 was central to Italian planning for the 1949 Coppa Inter-Europa, and Johnny Lurani had Cisitalia in mind when he designed the regulations, which he called "Turismo Veloce". Ferrari stole the show however, and Cisitalia went bankrupt. The Italians in the meanwhile loved "Turismo Veloce" and the CSAI made it a "proper" national racing category in 1950, naming it "Gran Turismo Internazionale" (Lurani again?). The category went off as they say, and in 1951 a national championship was inaugurated: "Campianato Gran Turismo Internazionale". Lurani was a leading light of the CSAI, and surely had a hand in the nomenclature: I'm sure he didn't have the anglo "Grand Tour" in mind, despite being an aristocrat himself.

The Italians were interested in relating motor racing to the cars "ordinary" people could buy, so hand-built Ferraris were out temporarily, minimum production of 30 cars being "specified". So, Gran Turismo Internazionale was also a "production sports car" category. Body dimensions were "specified"--all the cars were berlinettas--and I would dearly love to see the original "regolamento" to understand how it was worded.

The Italians argued thru 1953 at the FIA (Lurani again was an important figure at the FIA) for a "Gran Turismo" category, and got one! We're all familiar I'm sure with the 1954 FIA Appendix J "Grand Touring" regulations for production sports cars, the main difference from the Italian regulations being 100 minimum production and open OR closed coachwork.

The Gran Turismo and Grand Touring nomenclature therefore clearly pre-date the concept of a "touring car in the grand manner" and certainly any connection that I can discern to the aristocratic "Grand Tour". Even Ferrari's touring 250 berlinetta in 1953 was called the "Europa"; "GT" was reserved for the 1956 lightweight road/race versions.

GT, then, was originally a road/race, enclosed and/or production sports car nomenclature.

It is illuminating to search the anglo MotorSport magazine archives (available online, a great resource) for references to "GT", "Grand Turismo" and "Grand Touring". They are virtually non-existent until the 1960s. Then you begin to see English-speaking motoring journalists writing about what is a "proper" Grand Touring car, and invariably their view fits with the outstanding British GTs of the period: Bristol (really a "stolen" German machine), Aston Martin, Jaguar et al. We can guess that this is when people began to connect "touring cars in the grand manner" with the aristocratic continental "Grand Tour", although the exact moment may prove exceedingly difficult to pin down; perhaps like the original "gran turismo" meaning, it simply evolved from multiple wellsprings.

The above is my own original research, and except where it has happily coincided with published sources, is not admissible here; although I would dearly love to find more suitable material to cite. For example I'd love to get hold of Wimpffen's Time and Two Seats (although even this tome does not cover early Italian GT racing) and Lurani's Italian-language memoirs (or much better for me, an English translation).

It doesn't necessarily follow though, that citations referencing the olde worlde horse-drawn "Grand Tour" are "tosh". The British (or even just some of them) are as much entitled to "their GT definition" as anybody else: aside from the FIA no one has any real authority in this arena, and even then only in motor racing. References to the horse-drawn "Grand Tour" are legion, and we as editors are bound to give them, and all other sources, suitable consideration. The Sony Play Station Gran Turismo manual, for example, has been circulated globally and has "informed" a whole generation of young enthusiasts, as is readily apparent online; how credible was Sony's source--who knows? Another example, the "Grand Tour" reference has been right here on this wiki from the beginning, AFAIK, long before I got here. I have personally added the most relevant citations I could find, notwithstanding my own opinion regarding the provenance of the underlying idea. In the way of popular culture, it is as authentic as anything else.

I think the narrative related above, and in part in the article, is rich and fascinating, and perhaps in time more sources will become available to flesh it out further, and improve it in the main article, perhaps even repudiate some of it. In the meantime I believe this wiki is a very good, authentic and fitting starting point. It's also a pleasure to be discussing it here.

Steve Limpus (talk) 02:17, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Give a dog a good name

Terrier ready for absolutely anything

Irish Wolfhound

If I told everyone my crossbred terrier was an Irish Wolfhound people who cared little about dogs would accept that and maybe think far enough to presume Irish wolves are rabbit-sized. When they find it in a book they then believe it, maybe its a miniature wolfhound and not a Standard size? Manufacturers like to help their sales persons to sell product and if calling a Rabbit a GTI seems to work so be it (who cares) but does not make the nomenclature correct. Eddaido (talk) 02:00, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Therein lies the problem Eddaido. If enough people call your "Terrier" a "Wolfhound", and if enough of them are credible sources (and especially if its "in a book") and if enough people read and talk about your Wolfhound over the years, he effectively IS now a Wolfhound, to many people. Maybe to some others, he is still a Terrier. But the important thing for an encyclopedia editor, is that the whole story is recorded, including who called him what and when, and what all the connections were. That he is still a Terrier to you remains important too. Etymology is fascinating, no?

You are somewhat stretching the point however? My observation is that no real consensus exists as to an exact definition of "Grand Tourer" - I doubt that's actually the case for Terriers? The story behind the dissemination and dilution of the meaning of the "GT" nomenclature has an actual history: messy though it may be, it all actually happened. I don't see that anyone here is suggesting a Volkswagen Rabbit Rabbit GTi is the definitive grand tourer, but it is representative of its breed (GT "badged"); we can't wish it away, but we should try to explain it as best we can to our readers (using reputable sources of course).

At the end of the day the FIA Appendix J is probably the only document that currently has a shot at being genuinely "authoritative". Only my humble opinion though. The sources are what they are, and speak for themselves. I think there are good citations here for all worldviews, and there is always room for more, our editorial "duty" as it were.

Steve Limpus (talk) 04:52, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you are talking of etymology, just lack of knowledge (again). Its like "I didn't know there was a Paris in France" and not acknowledging its existence. I do not think an encyclopaedia should give uninformed / ill-informed sources any credibility or, if essential, more than a passing mention. Please would you respond to why you think the Italian and FIA view is so (ill-educated). Eddaido (talk) 00:19, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh dear Eddaido. I have actually been making arguments here that (1) the Italian concept of the gran turismo has historical precedence, and (2) that there is not an authoritative consensus as to an exact description of "grand tourer", except for the FIA in respect to motorsport. I have already made dozens of edits and citations here in this Wiki supporting the Italian gran turismo concept through the 1930s to the 1960s, and elucidating the evolution of gran turismo/grand touring racing via the CSAI and FIA; so you are missing the mark big time I'm afraid--I couldn't be further from opining the Italians and FIA are "ill-educated", where on earth did you get that idea?

It appears you have removed published citations from this wiki, simply because they don't fit your own favourite viewpoint? Doing so detracts from the value of the wiki as a source of information for readers: is that not the point of an encyclopedia rather than to promote one's own point of view or one's own favorite author? You could have instead highlighted the issues where people hold different views, and added your own citations expanding on that body of knowledge. Readers who see references to the horse-drawn Grand Tour elsewhere (there are many) will now be confused as to why it gets no mention here - far better to explain the controversy, no? Your reason is simply to "remove tosh"... really?

In regards to your Rabbit GTi, any manufacturer can call any product they want a "GT", and so they have--who's to stop them? That's rather the point isn't it. I put my hands up brother, it wasn't me! Blame Volkswagen!! lol :-)

Etymology: the study of the origin of words and the way in which their meanings have changed throughout history; the origin of a word and the historical development of its meaning.

I wish you and your Terrier both, a lovely weekend, Eddaido. :-) 06:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

An Italian view

With the term Gran Turismo, Granturismo or even with the abbreviation GT, it is a high performance car, but also suitable for long journeys.

In the sports field, the International Automobile Federation defines it as follows in Appendix J of 1961 to the International Sports Code:

« Grand Touring cars are vehicles built in small series for customers who are looking for a better performance and/or a maximum comfort and are not particularly concerned about economy[1] »

In the following years [2] [3] [4] [5] this definition is slightly modified in the text, while remaining unchanged in substance. Gran Turismo are different from "Sports cars" as they are designed to look for maximum performance, even though they are necessarily equipped with all the necessary equipment for road traffic [2], although from 1972 such equipment was still allowed but not required [6].

Therefore, Gran Turismo is generalist and does not correspond to the specific features or aesthetics of the bodywork, as it is in the case of berlinette, coupe, spyder, boat, roadster and so on. GT is often used by automakers in the official designations of their models and by the FIA ​​to define specific classes of car racing (FIA GT Championship).

His body has normally two doors and a very aerodynamic and streamlined line, he often has the front engine fitted and has a good capacity boot. Some argue that it should contain "two golf bags". Its engine is powerful and its peak speed is high.

The name comes from the fact that these cars are able to easily travel long distances in a short time and with relative comfort.

• Please note, the many references are to publications in English
  Eddaido (talk) 04:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Source

GT history

Why article has conflic in GT history when 1st GT car is 1929 Alfa Romeo 6C 1750 GT and the article says "the grand touring car concept is generally considered to have originated in Europe in the early 1950s" this just wrong , opinions? in my opionion its originated in Europe in 1920s , the ref given says "modern" GT class is from 1950s , but this article should tell the whole story from beginning -->Typ932 ^T·C 17:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Elliot or Elliott?

What is the correct spelling, Elliot or Elliott? 77.169.9.65 (talk) 15:14, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

See also section

In the "See also" section, it says that the motorcycle equivalents of a GT car are the "cruisers" and "tourers" ("Cruiser and Touring motorcycle—motorcycle equivalents"). I read the respective articles and it seems to me that cruisers ar not equivalent to GTs, as they are not made for driving long distances (:"At low to moderate speeds, cruisers are more comfortable than other styles, but riding for long periods at freeway speeds can lead to fatigue from pulling back on the handlebars to resist the force of the wind against the rider's chest."). I tourer is made for exactly that: driving long distances. Specifically, a sport touring motorcycle combine long distance driving capability of a tourer with the high speed of a sport motorcycle, being similar to a GT which also combines both capabilities. I think that this should be changed to say that the motorcycle equivalent of a GT is a sport tourer or, at least, a tourer.Magnetizedlion27 (talk) 01:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

References