Talk:Askal

Requested move 26 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Askal. (non-admin closure) OhKayeSierra (talk) 03:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

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Street dogs of the Philippines → Askal – Street dogs in the Philippines are called "askals" in English. There is a movement for them to be called "Aspins", but "Askals" still have a clear lead. An example of the usage is at one of the references of the article: "AKF mourns the tragic, untimely passing of the loyal Askal, Buboy." and "rescuing the askal". Could also be swayed to move to "Aspin", but not this hideous title. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

• Move - Aspin is a disambiguation page. Askal would be better than Aspin (dog) because it naturally disambiguates. --Nessie (talk) 15:24, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
  • That's noted. I noted above that "nobody calls it as 'Aspin'" in 2011. In 2019, WP:RS "Aspin" is becoming more prevalent, at least in WP:RS, but "askal" still leads. I also earlier said to wait in 20 years... it seems that we won't have to wait that far. I'd be amenable to either. Howard the Duck (talk) 01:05, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
• Move - per nom. Street dogs of the Philippines is a mouthful.  Sub |_HMU  12:38, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 7 December 2019 (procedurally closed RM)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: procedural close. Consensus, albeit slim, was established in the prior discussion. The proper procedure is to discuss moving the article away from the Askal title, not to move it unilaterally. It would be fitting to open a RM to move to the Street dogs of the Philippines title. —C.Fred (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

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Street dogs of the Philippines → Askal – We just had a discussion last month. Let's do it again? Howard the Duck (talk) 02:01, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

• No need to move the article, as per consistency https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Category:Street_dogs Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 08:13, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

• @NessieVL: and @Subwaymuncher: Tagging people who responded to last month's discussion, if you guys have anything to add. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

That's nice of you to tag people who support your point of view, I just wonder why you didn't tag me in the previous discussion, are you canvassing? Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 17:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

You should read WP:CANVAS before you proceed. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 17:52, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Howard pinged all the participants in the previous RM so this is not canvassing. – Thjarkur (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

He also started the previous discussion without pinging me, despite me being the one who was changing the article, so he is picking and choosing when to inform involved parties, therefore it is canvassing. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

• Reinstated move Sennen goroshi, you don't get to undo a consensus move just because you don't like the outcome. While it is considered good form to ping the main contributors, there is no requirement to notify anyone in particular when starting a move discussion. - For what it's worth, definitely MOVE. There is a particular name, it's widely used, and it's more specific than the generic phrasing. Redirect exists, so those looking for "street dogs" won't get lost either. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

There is an on-going discussion, don't move it while the discussion is taking place. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 20:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

"The page should not be moved unless the discussion is closed; summarizing the consensus achieved in support of the move." " The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached " Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 20:21, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Sennen goroshi, you should not have moved the page back in the first place. That Howard the Duck started a new discussion is a courtesy, and he would have been perfectly justified in just undoing your move (which I have just done). The status quo at this point, as per consensus, is the article name "Askal", and that you saw fit to batter that down does not suddenly put the result under temporal prorection. Do NOT move the page back unless you can establish a clear consensus for that. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:29, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

OK, now I'm getting pissed. @Howard the Duck, Subwaymuncher, and NessieVL: could we please reaffirm the results of the above, standing move consensus so that Sennen goroshi can be told in no uncertain terms where to stick his edit warring? --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 20:34, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Calm down. I'm sorry, but the fact that you're "getting pissed" or that you want to tell me "where to stick his edit warring" doesn't really help. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Admins should follow the RM rules. I didn't open the RM, there wasn't clear consensus. Poor admin move. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Sennen goroshi: Then you should have opened a move review rather than unilaterally the page to your liking. Once is bold, twice is failure to "follow the RM rules". That's why the consensus established on 3 November was restored. —C.Fred (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

There wasn't clear consensus for the move in the first RM, it's pretty obvious when you don't involve the person moving the article in the first place of the RM, and then have a non-admin closure, that you won't gain consensus. You said the consensus was slim (weak) yourself, I'd say it was just non-existent, which is why a move was acceptable. Besides, we had a RM running - that would have promoted discussion through the normal channels, closing it, kills the issue. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 20:57, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

As I noted, there's nothing preventing you from opening a new RM—but you have to discuss moving it back to the prior title. —C.Fred (talk) 21:01, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn't it have been easier if you had just let the RM run and see what happened? Either way, it's a pretty clean violation of naming policies so I might just take your advice and open a new RM. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@Elmidae: While there was consensus, I wanted another RM to put to rest Sennen Goroshi's arguments as he has been moving this article to his preferred awful title several times already. An RM with his participation would solve that. His argument is especially weak: in Philippine English, "Askal" is English, or at the very least, is used in English language sources as an English word. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:15, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

"Askal" is English" - nope, it's Tagalog. I've been trying to find it in English dictionaries and No exact matches found for "askal" is the common response to my search. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:34, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 7 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: closed as not moved. Favonian (talk) 21:44, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

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Askal → Street dogs of the Philippines – As stated in WP:UE (Use English) we should be using English titles for articles when possible, Askal and Aspin are both Filipino portmanteaus, that are unknown to most English speakers Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Askal = Aso (dog)+ Kalye (street) - Aspin = Aso (dog) + Pinoy (Filipino) - these are certainly not English language terms, and the term Street dogs of the Philippines is a very standard and easily understandable title for English speakers. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose previous RM was in support for the move. Looks like the name is also used in English sources.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as WP:UE holds. "Askal" is the name used in English language sources. See also, the Spanish-derived English name of "San Francisco". Howard the Duck (talk) 00:07, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - unknown to most English speakers appears not to be the case, based on my searches; indeed the term is generally offered in combination with the generic (i.e., "which are known as Askal"), which is a pretty good indicator that it constitutes a more precise identifier. English title != Anglo-Saxon; it means, in use in English discourse. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 00:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Looks like the name is also used in English sources." almost every source given is a Filipino source, not a native English source. San Francisco is very well known to English speakers, as are karaoke, spaghetti and champagne - Askal/Aspin isn't.

"(i.e., "which are known as Askal")," which is exactly why we shouldn't use Askal/Aspin - the fact that a source has to explain what Askal is, shows that it's not a well known term. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 08:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, the fact that it isn't called Askal in Cebuano makes it clear that it isn't even universally used in the Philippines. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 08:16, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

What Wikipedia policy or guideline are you grounding this argument on? Howard the Duck (talk) 13:56, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISH and WP:TRANSLITERATE Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:29, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

The thesis statement of WP:ENGLISH is "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". There's an argument that either "askal" or "aspin" is the name most commonly used in the English language. Your preferred title clearly simply is not is.

The thesis statement of WP:TRANSLITERATE is "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage. Again, either "askal" or "aspin" follow English language usage.

Neither says we should follow "a native English source", but of course, it's not available in translated words such as this one. A Filipino source that is in the English language perfectly suffices.

The fact that it isn't called "askal" in Cebuano doesn't matter what this article is named in the English wikipedia... probably in the Cebuano Wikipedia? Howard the Duck (talk) 14:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Neither Askal nor Aspin follow English usage. Oxford, Cambridge, Merriam Webster all come up with no result for askal.

There are however sources that support the use of Street dogs

"The fact that it isn't called "askal" in Cebuano doesn't matter what this article is named in the English wikipedia... probably in the Cebuano Wikipedia?" are you joking? Are you suggesting that in English language Wikipedia, Tagalog is acceptable but Cebuano isn't?

Just give it up, buddy - this is English language Wikipedia, go make an Askals article on Tagalog Wikipedia. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 14:47, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

References

I dunno if I have bad reading comprehension. Last time I checked, this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.

There are plenty more sources that specifically call street dogs in the Philippines as "askals". We have an entire article of it here.

If you can find reliable sources that specifically use the Cebuano name as the most prevalent for this type of dog, you can make another RM to make that move. If the Ilocano name is the most prevalent name in English for this type of dog, then that's where the article name should be. It isn't, so.

You can ask someone from WP:AN in helping in closing this discussion. It's quite clear where the consensus lies. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:05, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) It's quite clear where the consensus lies. Oh, I get it - you say there is consensus, so I'm supposed to go along with that? That isn't how consensus works, buddy. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 17:02, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Buddy, I give up. go ask someone to close this RM at WP:AN. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:06, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Sure, we can request this to be closed if you're conceding that my request moved is for the best. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd concede that every RM is judged by its initiator to be for the best. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

You have more faith in human nature than I do. I do however know my RM is made with the best of intentions. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - I'm not that familiar with how wiki discussion format works but based on the arguments here Kintsugi should be renamed "golden joinery". I think it doesn't matter if "Askal" is a portmanteau or not if it's widely used in a certain English speaking community, native or non-native, it should not be renamed. Do I need to vote here I don't know how any of these works. SciPunk (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@SciPunk: It makes it easier for whoever assesses the outcome if you provide a bolded one word summary of your stance, in the manner of "oppose" or "support". --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:09, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it doesn't matter if "Askal" is a portmanteau or not if it's widely used in a certain English speaking community, native or non-native, it should not be renamed. - unfortunately, Wikipedia has rules and guidelines that don't agree with you, go change those rules if you disagree with them. ...but based on the arguments here Kintsugi should be renamed "golden joinery". - you mean how Wikipedia doesn't have fujisan or nihon articles, but does have Mount Fuji and Japan articles. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 21:13, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above arguments that have already been repeated a sufficient number of times. This discussion wouldn't have been opened if Sennen goroshi didn't have such a bad case of WP:IDHT. Lepricavark (talk) 17:58, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose this is an article on street dogs of the Philippines, so logically, Filipino English would be used in this article per WP:ENGVAR. I've seen no evidence that Askal is not considered an English word in the Philippines. Nil Einne (talk) 16:46, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

If you were to advise the president of the Philippines on how to cope with the economic problems we are facing today to solve and improve the lives of the Filipino people, what would you tell him and why?

If you were to advise the president of the Philippines on how to cope with the economic problems we are facing today to solve and improve the lives of the Filipino people, what would you tell him and why? Part 2: 1.37.86.177 (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

If you were to advise the president of the Philippines on how to cope with the economic problems we are facing today to solve and improve the lives of the Filipino people, what would you tell him and why? Part 2:

If you were to advise the president of the Philippines on how to cope with the economic problems we are facing today to solve and improve the lives of the Filipino people, what would you tell him and why? Part 2: 1.37.86.177 (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)