Talk:Amaury du Closel

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

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Du Closel in 2015

• ... that conductor and composer Amaury du Closel (pictured) founded the Forum Voix Etouffées to revive the music of composers whose voices were silenced by totalitarian regimes of the 20th century? Source: [1]
  • Reviewed: Methuselah (lungfish)
  • Comment: On the Main page RD but without blurb, so still eligible

Created by Jmanlucas (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2121 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC).

• The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination. I didn't find any close paraphrasing. A QPQ has been fully completed. As the article was only featured on RD rather than as a blurb, it is still eligible for DYK. The image is properly licensed and is suitable at its resolution.

The hook doesn't meet WP:DYKCITE at this time as the footnote supporting it comes later in the paragraph than it should. The hook is referenced to a French source so AGF, although a Google Translate translation seems to verify the information. Apart from the sourcing, my only real concern (since the hook is interesting) is the language in both the hook and the article might not meet the guidelines on words to avoid in articles, specifically WP:PEACOCK since they're arguably more flowery. Rather than using "silenced", or the lead section's current wording, perhaps it may be toned down a little more to suit the guidelines. The nomination will be approved once those wording and citing issues are addressed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing. I duplicated the references to a sentence earlier. I tried to translate the name of the organization and his book: "Erstickte Stimmen", which was originally in German. I understand that "erstickt" means "suffocated" and believe that "silenced" is almost too harmless compared to that. Other options from my translator are "suppressed" and "stifled", the latter being a word I never heard before and therefore hesitate to use. If you say it is better, I'll believe you. Or what would you suggest? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The current hook is also really long, at 183 characters, so it might be a good idea to shorten it a bit. If that can be done while making the hook/article meet WTW, that might help. Perhaps Launchballer or CurryTime7-24 can propose such revisions to ALT0? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:44, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Knowing Gerda's strong feelings on DYK hooks, I'm not sure I can be of help here. However, I do agree that this hook is a mouthful and would benefit from a trim. Also, the phrase "whose voices were silenced" ought to be modified per WP:SUBJECTIVE, MOS:EUPHEMISM, and possibly MOS:CLICHE. It would be clearer to say "to revive the music of composers suppressed by totalitarian regimes". —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

CurryTime7-24, did you read (just above) that I tried to translate the name of the organization in a more elegant way than putting it in brackets? I believe that you could help with that. Voix Etouffées, Erstickte Stimmen, what is it best in English? It's their program. I would seriously like to find out even if we don't use it for the hook. - In an earlier hook, we said "music banned by the Nazis" which is of course shorter but too narrow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be officially known by its French name, so I'd stick with that. Sometimes organizations are internationally known by their native name (e.g. Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde). For what it's worth, "etouffée" translates to "stifled", "smothered", or "muffled". —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry that I was not precise: of course I didn't want to replace the French name of the organization, but translate it for those who don't know French. All three words are new to me, so I can't tell what would be best. Or give up the idea? Then what would you suggest? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Trying without "voices":

ALT0a ... that conductor and composer Amaury du Closel (pictured) founded the Forum Voix Etouffées to revive music that was suppressed by totalitarian regimes of the 20th century?

Trying simple translation:

ALT0b ... that conductor and composer Amaury du Closel (pictured) founded the Forum Voix Etouffées (Stifled voices) to revive music suppressed by totalitarian regimes of the 20th century? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Didn't grasp what you were telling me at first; I'm sorry for my pedantic reply. :) Although these are not literal translations, I think "suppressed", "persecuted", or even "oppressed" better convey the intended spirit of "etouffée" in the context of the organization name. Both ALT0a and ALT0b seem great to me! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I like ALT0a. As long as the wordings in the article are also fixed we should be good to go with it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

In the hook, we have no space. In the article, I replaced a duplicate "persecuted" in the lead by "suppressed", but in the prose used "voices stifled" (in quotation marks) to make the connection to the name. It appeared there only for the Nazi regime. If you have better ideas please try. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@CurryTime7-24: Are you okay with the way "voices stifled" is used in the article, or do you think it should be rephrased? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 and CurryTime7-24: Is this hook approved? If not, what else needs to be done? Z1720 (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I am still waiting for CurryTime's reply, or at least an opinion from a third party, on the appropriateness of the "voices stifled" quote in the article. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:01, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 and Z1720: I think the second instance of "voices stifled" in the article ought to be reworded or at least have its quotes removed as it unintentionally suggests MOS:SCAREQUOTES. As I mentioned earlier, "suppressed", "persecuted", and "oppressed" are preferable in conveying the implication of threat and force in the French original. "Stifled", while technically correct, is often used to indicate something/someone has been discouraged, frustrated, or deterred. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

CurryTime7-24, would you please just change it as you think is best. I just can't nuances well enough to be secure. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Done! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

• Good to go with ALT0a. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)