Talk:2019–20 European windstorm season

Storm Lorenzo vs. Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo vs. Post-Tropical Storm Lorenzo

@Sportsfanrob and Buttons0603: (pinging relevant users, in order to hopefully prevent one of those edit wars...). It is unclear to me why "Storm Lorenzo" was changed to both "Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo" and "Post-Tropical Storm Lorenzo" in separate edits, while the source (Met Office) I've cited quite clearly refers to Lorenzo as "Storm Lorenzo" (introduction section actually reads "Our partner Met Éireann named Storm Lorenzo on Wednesday morning, (...)" (naming part underlined)). Also Met Éireann, section 'Tracking Hurricane Lorenzo'. Is there any reason why we should divert from what the agencies named it?

Obviously (to me) it contradicts what the agencies said they'd name former hurricanes (Ex-Hurricane <name>), but I don't think we should 'hypercorrect' their naming choice. Thus I'd say changing it back to "Storm Lorenzo". Thoughts? DarkShadowTNT (talk) 13:04, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I saw it as "Post-Tropical Storm Lorenzo" and thought that was a bit naff so changed it to "Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo" as with stuff like Helene and Leslie last year. But I was in a rush, so didn't check the edit history and didn't realise it had previously been "Storm Lorenzo". Sorry if this has caused an edit war. I'm indifferent to either "Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo" or "Storm Lorenzo" but don't think "Post-Tropical Storm Lorenzo" would be correct when it was a hurricane when it went extratropical. Buttons0603 (talk) 10:50, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

If I had my druthers I'd call it "Post-Tropical Cylone Lorenzo" but if the agency is calling it "Storm Lorenzo" then that should be the section heading. I agree on not hypercorrecting. I mean, strictly speaking, the 1991 Perfect Storm should have been Hurricane Henri if naming conventions were followed, but they weren't. TornadoLGS (talk) 20:30, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for sharing both your thoughts. I'll change it to 'Storm Lorenzo' (with of course an extra bit of information that it contradicts the naming convention the agencies used the previous seasons) with the next edit or when Sportsfanrob has posted their thoughts, whichever is sooner. Thanks a bunch again :) DarkShadowTNT (talk) 14:28, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

The article isn't about UK/Ireland storms, its about European storms. The Azores were affected by Lorenzo whilst it was still tropical and the Azores are part of Europe, it was Hurricane Lorenzo there, not Storm Lorenzo.RandomIntrigue (talk) 17:44, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

The Azores are only politically European, geographically they are part of Africa, and given this is a weather event we should go on the geographical definition I would think. Of course the impacts from Lorenzo in the Azores should be mentioned, but it shouldn't carry undue weight in naming the storm as it then went on to affect Europe later. Buttons0603 (talk) 12:07, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

The term European windstorm refers to extra-tropical systems only, so far as I'm aware. Lorenzo became extratropical according to sources on the...umm... 2 October from what I can see, seems to me to be an obvious clear sourced cut-off time. The Azores could also be described as Macaronesian as much as European, but perhaps we digress.Lacunae (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

I did not notice these new responses up until now, my apologies. Either way, the article in question is clearly about the 2019-20 European windstorm season. If it had been named 2019-20 European storm season, then (and, in my opinion, only then, because a windstorm is always a storm, but not every storm is a windstorm) it would be appropiate to include more specific details about, for example, the maximum wind gust on the Azores and minimum pressure recorded there. This is because Lorenzo had passed the Azores while it was still a hurricane, as stated in this forecast discussion released by the NHC. It also notes that Lorenzo had assumed a more asymmetrical shape since advisory 39 (#39 doesn't actually mention the possibility it was undergoing extratropical transition at all, only that a completed transition is anticipated after it has passed the Azores), which is said to be "suggestive that transition to an extratropical cyclone is well underway". However, it is still considered to be a hurricane in that advisory. The next advisory (#41, the final advisory on Lorenzo) states that Lorenzo had completed extratropical transition and well after it passed the Azores. Only then it was considered to be an extratropical cyclone by the NHC.

Another thing is that Met Éireann *named* the extratropical remnants of Hurricane Lorenzo "Storm Lorenzo" "[...] after the hurricane it started as", see this article, introduction section. I've also mentioned this in my first post of this section. This is also why I find that 'designated' doesn't quite convey the same meaning as 'named', let alone 'The first system of the season etc. etc.' (based on experience and analyzing weather charts myself, many unnamed windstorms pass Europe because they do not warrant amber/orange/red warnings).

Furthermore, including wind speeds of Lorenzo while it was a hurricane would introduce inconsistencies with previous windstorm seasons, see 2018–19 European windstorm season (sections Ex-Hurricane Helene & Ex-Hurricane Leslie) and 2017–18 European windstorm season (section Ex-Hurricane Ophelia). I would, however, support suffixing pressure and wind speed in infoboxes with "(while extratropical)" for instances of former (sub-)tropical systems. It also seems at Met Éireann now simply names former hurricanes causing issueance of warnings mentioned earlier 'Storm Name' (see meteorologist's commentary, section 'Tracking Hurricane Lorenzo', bottom-ish), but that aside. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Why are we including casualties from Hurricane Lorenzo?

As far as I can tell the 10 casualties 7 missing is from a ship sunken during the tropical stage of Lorenzo, and don't really fit here.Lacunae (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. They should be included in the section about Lorenzo with a note, since it was the same system, but not in the article infobox. Especially since six of the deaths were actually in the United States. TornadoLGS (talk) 16:55, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I also agree. I'd actually support simply removing as much detail as possible from Lorenzo's section which describe its effects while it was still tropical (apart from the track I'd say), as it isn't relevant to the scope of this article (the origin of the storm, however, should be mentioned). DarkShadowTNT (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Of Hurricane Lorenzos fatalities, 4 were in North Carolina, 2 NYC, 4 on the Bourbon Rhode ship 1,110 mi (1,790 km) west of Cape Verde (7 missing). Will someone please explain why these numbers should be included on this page?Lacunae (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

It fits with other European Windstorm pages that all fatalities are included, the highest European wind gust (doesn't matter if it happened whilst the system was tropical or not, this page isn't exclusive) and the lowest pressure after it has become extra-tropical as ex-Hurricane's don't usually persist into the European area. RandomIntrigue (talk) 00:49, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think previous seasons set a precedent, and fatalities in the USA really don't fall into the remit of this page, otherwise it is an unnecessary clone of the Hurricane Lorenzo page. The values for other parameters do matter, and I and other editors do regard it as being exclusive to the extra-tropical storm on this page.Lacunae (talk) 01:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Might I suggest a compromise: don't count the death toll in the total, but add a note stating that the 10 dead and 7 missing from Lorenzo while it was tropical are not counted. TornadoLGS (talk) 05:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I think that is the best option to go for. RandomIntrigue (talk) 06:45, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Persistent inclusion of irrelevant details of Lorenzo when it was tropical

@RandomIntrigue:: Why are you so persistently including (and changing) material related to Lorenzo when it was still a hurricane (most notably the Azores)? It wasn't a European windstorm of the 2019-20 season then (the scope of this article; it's quite clearly not the 2019-20 European storm season) while it was passing it, thus any detail of it being a hurricane is pretty much irrelevant (a hurricane ≠ European windstorm). I've attempted to explain this multiple times in my edit summary (perhaps to the frequency of edit warring), yet it seemingly was ignored multiple times.

Argueing that this article would become only about 'UK and Ireland' is not true. Windstorms named by meteorological services other than those of the UK and Ireland are also included - most notably those of the Netherlands (joined UK & Ireland naming list, northwestern group of metservices if I'm not mistaken) and Belgium, France, Spain and Portugal (shared other naming list; southwestern group of metservices) and also, to a certain extend, Germany's Free University of Berlin naming list. The article's got even a storm named by the southwestern group of metservices (Amelie), so that invalidates the argument that this article is becoming only about windstorms affecting the UK and Ireland.

I must also note that Met Éireann named 'Storm Lorenzo' 'Storm Lorenzo' after the hurricane it started as, as is quite clearly stated in the references provided and also explained in the section above. I dare to say the general consensus was not to hypercorrect the agency's naming choice. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 17:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

I would agree with you if the storm did not go on to have notable impacts elsewhere in Europe. However, Lorenzo did do this. By ignoring all impacts on the Azores, you are gearing the article toward the UK and Ireland as it also impacted these two nations, but you are ignoring the Azores information. Even though it was tropical, it has gone on to become a European windstorm. Therefore all effects should be noted, just like Ophelia in the 2017-18 page.

Met Éireann did not give the name to Lorezno, the National Hurricane Center named Lorenzo. The Met Éireann would've named the first storm of the season Atiyah as listed in the article. All storms that are previously tropical retain their NHC names. The Met Éireann did not name Ophelia, Helene or Leslie, so why would Lorenzo be any different?RandomIntrigue (talk) 00:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Of course, a few notes about how Lorenzo affected the Azores are not an issue (though as few as possible, as there's an article about Hurricane Lorenzo already - no need to parrot how the Azores were impacted from a different page). It's that the maximum wind gust (and practically any effect) as a hurricane on the Azores is completely irrelevant for this article, as Lorenzo clearly wasn't a European windstorm at the time it impacted the Azores (as is stated in the references cited). Lorenzo's effects as a hurricane are thus largely out of scope for this article. The article you mention (2017-18 European windstorm season), doesn't include any details about Ophelia's effect on parts of Europe in its section when it was tropical, not sure where you're getting that from.

Even without the inclusion of Lorenzo's effects on the Azores, the article is clearly not being geared towards season effects on the United Kingdom and Ireland only. Storms named from the other naming list are also included, as those storms were also a named European windstorm.

As for your naming question, I'm citing this from Met Office's article about storm Lorenzo's forecast effects on Europe, introduction section: "Our partner Met Éireann named Storm Lorenzo on Wednesday morning, (the first named storm of the 2019/2020 season named after the hurricane it started as) issuing yellow and orange wind and rain warnings for the Republic of Ireland". It should be pretty clear now that Met Éireann named Lorenzo 'Storm Lorenzo' and named it after the hurricane it started as. This is what makes Lorenzo's naming different, as it appears the Irish meteorological agency named Lorenzo rather than calling it 'Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo' upon issuance of the warnings (inconsistent with what they said they'd name post-tropical hurricanes affecting their area of responsibility, but it's simply how it went, nothing to be changed there). This is thus why it should be 'Storm Lorenzo' and not 'Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo' and also why it should be 'the first named storm of the 2019-2020 season'. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 01:12, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay, these naming details really aren't that important in the article as a whole, so we should just keep it ambiguous as far as content is concerned. As for the title of the Lorenzo sub section I think it should just be Lorenzo as well as any other storms we may have as the title of this entire section is Storms, isn't writing Storm (name) for every storm somewhat redundant?RandomIntrigue (talk) 06:42, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, it's important to provide the reader with the right information and not simply default to what it technically should be (in this case, Storm Lorenzo vs. Ex-Hurricane Lorenzo). Met Éireann named it Storm Lorenzo, which was subsequently used by Met Office and a number of news outlets, even though it contradicts the agencies' choice of naming post-tropical systems which cause issueance of warnings fulfilling naming criteria. This is also stated in a note I've provided the reader about this naming choice (referenced and all).

I don't think Storm (name) is redundant in this case, as those names are seemingly used as proper nouns in English (kind-of like with hurricanes). It also specifies what that name is used for, for those readers who don't read all section headings. I'd rather change the section header of 'Storms' to 'Systems', to create consistency with the section 'Other systems' (not all systems in there could be European windstorms, as is shown already with that medicane that formed above the eastern Mediterranean Sea). DarkShadowTNT (talk) 23:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I think we should just keep it as it is then, as it also agrees with previous seasons' pages. RandomIntrigue (talk) 13:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. As for Lorenzo, maybe we can come to an agreement that 'Ex-Hurricane' is changed to 'Storm' (which would be preferred for reference's sake) and that the maximum wind gust while tropical (Azores) and extratropical (Mace Head, Ireland) is mentioned? DarkShadowTNT (talk) 17:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I think mentioning both wind gusts is appropriate for this article. In Lorenzo's section, maybe we could add a note or extra information in brackets that it is known as Storm Lorenzo in certain parts, similar to its own article. RandomIntrigue (talk) 17:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Measurements

@Carnby: I do not think it is appropriate to change the measurements to SI units first for meteorological articles such as this. Despite what the policy on such measurements is (see here) other similar articles such as the hurricane seasons in the US and the other European and UK/Ireland storm season pages do not use SI measurements first. I find it silly that we should use them on this page but not any of the others. I have reverted to original until a consensus can be made. RandomIntrigue (talk) 17:53, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, as per Wikipedia policies, also the hurricane seasons in the US should use SI units first, but in general they use also Fahrenheit and other customary units, no longer in use in Europe and the British Isles (apart from some limited cases). As far as wind speed is concerned (because the other units are OK), I'll try to ask an administrator to see what is best to do with European storms, at least ones involving more than the UK itself.--Carnby (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I think going to an administrator is best. Although this article is about Europe as a whole, the UK and Ireland are really the only majority speaking nations in Europe and both use, or at least understand, miles/miles per hour in normal life. RandomIntrigue (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

I have asked here: they say mph is preferred only for tropical cyclones near the United States (i.e. Atlantic and Pacific but not, for example North Indian, South-West Indian and Australian); m/s and knots are not generally used and converted if the source gives that units; they suggested me to use km/h first for European storms in general and also for single storms involving Europe as a whole, except storms strongly linked with the UK, which should give mph first. What do you think about?--Carnby (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I think that should be apt on single-storm articles, connected solely with mainland Europe. Although, other languages have their Wikipedia's in which they will use km/h, English Wikipedia will be mainly viewed by those in the UK and Ireland, who use miles more than km. In the Atlantic tropical storms articles, winds are always reported in mph, as it is generally viewed by mostly Americans and Canadians. I've never seen km used even with storms not at all linked to the United States. Furthermore, the UK Met Office give winds in knots or mph, usually not km. I think we should keep it as miles first until a consensus can be made. RandomIntrigue (talk) 17:12, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Metric system adoption, green is for where metric is officially adopted and usage is mandatory (pretty much the whole world, note that the UK is green as well), red officially adopted but usage voluntarily (the States are the largest country to have such status). Grey is no official policy.

You might want to reconsider 'I've never seen km used even with storms not at all linked to the United States'. See for example the cyclone and typhoon seasons around the world, which use metric as primary unit system. As stated above, mph is used for the Atlantic (and Pacific) hurricane seasons because of their relation to the States, which generally don't use kmh in day-to-day life. The United Kingdom is a special case, because although it officially uses metric, there's still imperial on road signs, for example. I don't recall that imperial is that widespread in Ireland (even the country's meteorological agency uses kmh rather than mph). Therefore I'd say metric as primary unit system, with imperial in brackets after metric. Luckily {{convert}} does that for us. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 18:28, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I think it is meteorologically correct to use metres per second, as is used in some European countries. I think mph and kmph both are handy and readily understood I don't think which comes first is all that important.Lacunae (talk) 19:28, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Which measurement comes first is usually determined on the context of a page. As Europe is using the metric (including the UK), it would make sense if kmh comes first and then mph. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Imagery

Given the (relatively) short duration of these storms (compared to hurricanes) I'd like to assess opinion as to whether the NASA worldview images are the most appropriate, when we have the availability of Eumetview and the ability to make Gif images?Lacunae (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Personally I think EUMETVIEW should be regarded as supplemental imagery, including GIFs. This is because to me it seems the Worldview images do a perfectly fine job at capturing all storms, even if the storm is split up into multiple segments. It also appears to me that EUMETVIEW's imagery (or at least that of the natural colours (enhanched)) is of inferior quality (you begin to see blocky pixels already if you zoom in to 1:12M) than Worldview's (depending on the satellite you choose, it stays sharp up until 500m per pixel). Or, for comparison, on the 1:12M from EUMETVIEW, Formentera (the island below Ibiza) is but a mere white, oblong-shaped line, while on Worldview's imagery, the island can be clearly seen at 500m per pixel. The air mass imagery, however, can be used to illustrate the evolution of a storm, but should, in my opinion, not be used as primary. IR imagery only when Worldview's natural colour imagery is not available at a region, especially during winter because of Earth's tilt. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 17:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Some interesting points in your response to think about, however Worldview offers only once a day visible imagery which may entirely miss interesting structural imagery of storms (thinking stingjet hinting cloud formation, baroclinic leaf formation, dry slot etc..), especially given the short days experienced in the regions affected, and the brief(er) duration of the storms.Lacunae (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think it'd matter that much in the grand scheme of things, though? Like for the reader I think it's important to have an image covering the entirety of the storm, so that they have some kind of idea as to what the scale of the storm is. Things like stingjets, baroclinic leaf formation, dry slot, etc. are more subjects for supporting imagery, as those can become quite geeky stuff if you'd ask me (though on the other hand, there's Bernardo with its eye-like feature...).

What we could do, though, is have both NASA and EUMETVIEW as primary imagery 'provider' and then whatever image from either NASA or EUMETVIEW is in the infobox first, stays there unless there's a much better picture available of the storm from either source. The source(s) which didn't get put into the infobox could be used as supporting imagery whenever possible, or could be put into the storm's category on Commons. That way I think we can get the best of both worlds. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 21:46, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

I would personally avoid EUMETVIEW imagery as the main infobox/article imagery due to its lower quality from what I've seen, but have no qualms with it being used as supplementary imagery secondary to the current Worldview images if appropriate for the creation of GIFs or pointing out sting jet structures, eye-like features etc. Buttons0603 (talk) 01:48, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Combined track map

Not sure who best to ask for this. Would it be possible for a combined track map of all storms this season to be made for the main infobox at the top of the article like with tropical cyclone seasons? I know there has been persistent debate on the handling of Lorenzo further up the talk page and I have no preference on this myself so I will leave the decision on how Lorenzo is added into this combined track map up for discussion, be it including Lorenzo's entire track (whatever fits within the image used, anyway) or only the extratropical (triangle) points of the track. Buttons0603 (talk) 01:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

@DarkShadowTNT: as you have been making the individual tracks, is this something that could be done? Buttons0603 (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I am able to do such thing. I'll have a look at it sometime this week, perhaps today already, depending if time allows. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 20:10, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

And  Done. A bit later than I hoped. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Great work, many thanks! Buttons0603 (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Mortimer and Lorenzo

Lorenzo can´t have killed someone in England in the Morning of 3rd October, because the Storm was far offshore Ireland that Time. Map: http://www1.wetter3.de/Archiv/GFS/2019100306_0.gif Please change that in the Article.

Mortimer (named by FUB) moved across central Europe in late September 2019 and caused the death of 3 Persons. The Storm should be mentioned in the Section other Systems. https://apnews.com/1f15d431bd6d4f68a7a0092754268aeb

--217.24.224.24 (talk) 15:08, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Those maps are valid for midnight of that day as far as I understand. Extratropical lows are generally very fast-moving especially under the jet stream so it is possible by the end of the day that it has travelled a long distance from that start point. As for Mortimer I have nothing against its inclusion as a line in the "Other systems" section like we had last season so feel free to add that or I may do if I get time later- Buttons0603 (talk) 17:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Mortimer is termed a "sturmtief" rather than "orkantief" and wasn't investigated by Perils.org so probably doesn't make the grade. I have no problem if anyone really feels the need to add something in the other storms section.Lacunae (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

The linked map in specific is, in our case, only valid for midnight 3 October (or 0000Z). The same website also hosts 6-hourly analysis maps made by both the Deutscher Wetterdienst (DWD) and Met Office, under a different link. With this, the DWD map of 0600Z on October 3 shows that Lorenzo was west of Ireland at that time. Given how the high pressure area (≥1020 mbar) and Lorenzo (973 mbar) are positioned relatively close to each other, a pressure difference exists of ~45 mbar from the western coast of Europe to west of Ireland, as indicated by the isobars. This can generate quite some wind and gusts from the high pressure area to Lorenzo, which, in turn, can lead to treefalls, especially when those trees still have leaves on them. Such treefall happened to that person. Not going too far into detail on this matter, but it could be that this tree was already weakened at its base due to recent and/or past storms or simply too many of tree stabilizing roots at the surface rather than deeper ones, or a combination thereof.

As for Mortimer, I think it's worthy to be added to the Other systems section (as OP suggested), considering it took the lives of three people. I don't think it'd add much value anywhere else on the page, though, unless there's something I've missed? DarkShadowTNT (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I´ve checked already in October the maximum Windspeeds in UK during the Time the incident happened, and they were quite low. Sadly i can´t find the Data right now, only the average Winds, which were 5-10km/h that Morning in England. --217.24.224.24 (talk) 18:14, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Merits of duration vs impact dates

In the short term which most of the edits on these pages occur, most of the duration dates are quite subjective, may constitute original research, and I think rather obscure the most relevant dates the general reader would be interested in. In contrast the dates of when the warnings are valid can easily be sourced from a reliable source when the warnings are announced, denotes the time when the storm is notable and impactful and is much clearer to readers when the storm "struck".Lacunae (talk) 20:46, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

For date of duration I generally use the dates the storms appear named on FUB maps (obviously under the FUB name rather than storm name) which I think are an acceptable source. Buttons0603 (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Wind speed track map data

@DarkShadowTNT: Hi, I noticed that the wind speed data for the Storms are 'unknown'. I came across this website, https://www.ventusky.com/ that provides archives of mean wind speeds across the world on a 3 hour basis, in their archives. Would it be possible to edit the track maps to fill in the wind speed data for each of the storms, as is done with the hurricane pages? Thanks. RandomIntrigue (talk) 23:08, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I will look into it in more depth later today. From what I can see, however, is that it pulls its data off of official instances, plus maintains an archive (opposed to another website I'd use otherwise). Grabbing the right data, however, might be tricky. I can round it off to the nearest 5 kt, just like with hurricanes. Many thanks! DarkShadowTNT (talk) 00:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Storm Brendan or Storm Gloria

"There's a persistent high-pressure area above Europe at the moment" says DarkShadowTNT. Storm Brendan is yet to be named by the Met Office or by Met Eirran and Storm Gloria is yet to be named by AEMET or Météo-France. Sportsfanrob (talk) 09:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

"Ellen" next?

When does it become official for listing here?

Storm Ellen WARNING: Storm Dennis to be followed by ANOTHER system? Maps and charts

--Mortense (talk) 16:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

It only becomes official when any of the official meteorological agencies using that naming list (= Met Éireann, Met Office or KNMI) name it Ellen. Since they haven't named it, let alone even mentioned it, it's not official. Plus it's quite a clickbaity title for that article. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 14:23, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Humberto's remains

Should that be included as it brought torrential rain to Europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.205.36.100 (talk) 15:15, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, none of the meteorological agencies have warned for Humberto. Therefore I don't think it should be included. Feel free to prove me wrong with a link to any of the official meteorological agencies in Europe, though. DarkShadowTNT (talk) 23:27, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Track Maps

The track maps featured on this article almost certainly fall under WP:OR and, at the very least, feature unreliable sources (namely Ventusky). I won't unilaterally remove in case there's any reasonable opposition, but I see very little argument to keep them around. AveryTheComrade (talk) 04:52, 13 September 2023 (UTC)