Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 April 13

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April 13

Free speech in Internet forums

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

— Evelyn Beatrice Hall.

In today's world where freedom of speech is the norm, why most Internet forums and reputed wikis (including Wikipedia) don't allow free speech within community discussion? While making threat of violence must be a ground for block, why harmless insults are prohibited? I have seen, in some wikis such as RationalWiki and Uncyclopedia, civility policy is much relaxed and insults are allowed in discussions (including the use of profanity), while it is much stricter than in Wikipedia in site like Conservapedia. Are not the policies Wikipedia:Username policy, Wikipedia:Civility, and Wikipedia:No personal attacks violation of freedom of speech? Thoughts? --Reference Desker (talk) 05:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia can choose not to allow certain types of speech just as a school or restaurant choose not to allow certain types of speech. You can say whatever you like in your own home, or in public areas, but on government or private property that is not your own freedom of speech does not apply. Wikipedia is voluntary, not compulsory, so it does not compel you to do anything if you do not wish to contribute.AerobicFox (talk) 05:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. HiLo48 (talk) 05:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Even better, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, a whole page for answering this question, especially this part WP:NOTFORUM. Heiro 05:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Returning to he OP's original question, is there really such a thing as a "harmless insult"? This encyclopaedia is global, covering massively diverse cultural environments. Having travelled a little, I know that what is considered great humour in one place can be considered quite offensive, or simply not understood, in another. Maybe the OP could give us some examples of "harmless insults". HiLo48 (talk) 05:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Its moot. If he is trolling, you are taking the bait. Heiro 06:03, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I am just curious: how do you know the op was "trolling"? Isn't "trolling" a derogagtory term not allowed on Wikipedia? Ottawahitech (talk)

I always thought that quote was from Voltaire, anyway. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Apocryphal misattribution, I believe. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh no, it's a genuine, honest-to-goodness misattribution. From Wikiquote: Voltaire:

• Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in The Friends of Voltaire (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.
• Another possible source for the quote was proposed by Norbert Guterman, editor of "A Book of French Quotations," who noted a letter to M. le Riche (February 6, 1770) in which Voltaire is quoted as saying: "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" ("Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire"). This remark, however, does not appear in the letter. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

A worthwhile subject for the original poster to consider: What is the purpose of the website? If it is to construct a free encyclopedia, then it's pretty easy to see that insults, personal attacks, and shock photos don't contribute to this purpose — or, at the very least, the disadvantages outweigh the supposed "contribution" that insults, etc., provide to the purpose. Another subject is the popular misconception that "freedom of speech" is guaranteed somehow. In the US, the government is barred by the First Amendment from restricting the freedom of speech, but your local coffee shops and free-encyclopedia websites are not owned by the US government, so they can restrict speech within their borders as much as they want. It's OK that there's no absolute freedom of speech on Wikipedia, and in fact if there were absolute freedom of speech, this place would have turned into 4chan long ago. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Freedom of speed is guaranteed, not only by the US constitution, but also by other means. It is, e.g., covered by Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In the US, courts have held that demonstrations can be held on private property if this property takes the place of the public sphere. However, I agree that this guarantee is not absolute, and that Wikipedia is free to set its own rules. I'm not so sure that Wikipedia has found the right balance at the moment. WP:CIV is abused very often. The reason why freedom of speech is a good idea is not that it's written down in some document. The reason is that it allows for the free exchange of ideas, and allows us to diffuse conflicts by argument, not brawn. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:02, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

More importantly, if you force Wikipedia to publish what you want them to, that is a violation of Free Speech, since you are requiring that Wikipedia say things they don't want to say, and free speech means that you can't be forced to say things against your will. Everyone seems to forget that... --Jayron32 20:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) Quibbles on Stephan Schulz's points: The US Constitution doesn't affirmatively guarantee your freedom of speech, but instead just keeps the government out of it. Except when it doesn't (slander, inciting to riot, shouting "movie" in a crowded fire house). People can be found pretty easily who will argue that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights's vague freedom-of-speech clause isn't binding law in the US, and in any case I'd have to challenge you to locate a US case in which someone's freedom of speech was upheld because of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

If you want to quibble, the first amendment actually says "Congress shall make no law [...] abridging the freedom of speech". Read strictly, that means e.g. that congress cannot make property laws that allow the owner to restrict your freedom of speech on their property ;-). Of course there is, by now, plenty of case law and tradition that both ensures that government has an active role in maintaining freedom of speech, and that this freedom is not unlimited. I find it in very bad taste, however, that people keep bringing up Schenck v. United States, one of the less glorious moments of the US supreme court, and a case that was overturned in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 1969, for very good reasons. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

There are those who think "freedom of speech" somehow means the right to say anything, anytime, anywhere, without consideration for anything or anybody, except themselves because they feel like doing it. Freedom of speech has boundaries, and those boundaries can be considered the verbal equivalent of the old saying, "Your right to throw your fist ends where my nose begins." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:56, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

More specifically, your right to free speech shouldn't infringe on my right to freedom of association and basic individual liberty. I should be free to live without hearing your odious speech and keep it out of my relationships if I want. --JGGardiner (talk) 08:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

It would be nice if "In today's world...freedom of speech is the norm" but that is not the case. Taboos and censorship are imposed everywhere there is a power structure, Wikipedia not excluded. See the article Chilling effect (law) for an understanding of how free speech gets eroded. Wikipedia is fashionably free-spoken on sexual topics and gives more information on perversions down to and including Child pornography than anyone has a stamina for, but it has also developed a blocking or suppression regime with peculiar formalism (hands up if you ever used the word "incivil" before you saw it in Wikipedia!). This is not the place to be explicit about sins against free speech by Wikipedia admins beyond noting that A) Wikipedia has an arbitration committee who start handling a case by requiring each subject to answer exclusively YES/NO and may then dictate something else as "what you actually said", C) the same committee has deleted the ostensibly free questioning of a candidate for adminship so that in addition to their freedom not to answer a question, the candidate will not be seen to avoid answering, and D) it came as a surprise to me that one is prevented from quoting on one's talk page posts that are open for anyone to find in Wikipedia. The diffs for all this exist and sssssh! you won't hear them from me. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The European Convention on Human Rights explicitly states that freedom of speech can be restricted. -- Q Chris (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Do not refreeze

If I buy frozen food, it nearly always says "do not refreeze once thawed" somewhere on the packaging. If refreezing creates some health danger, how is it different than the initial freezing process? Astronaut (talk) 11:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is refreezing food bad from Straightdope, Is it safe to refreeze food from wiki answers :) Royor (talk) 12:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(EC) My understanding is that the (re)freezing process is not itself the problem (though it might deleteriously affect the texture and taste of the food through additional cell disruption), but rather the possibly overlong period the food may spend in total both between the frozen states and after a second thawing prior to cooking, during which bacteria can proliferate, perhaps to dangerous levels. Refreezing merely suspends their multiplication, rather than killing them off, nor does it destroy any non-living toxins they might have produced, so after the second thawing they carry on where they left off. Also, as frozen food is often kept for long periods, one might forget it had previously thawed and repeat the cycle, thus compounding the problem.

There is an inherent presumption that you will in any case cook the food either directly from the frozen state (if that is appropriate), or promptly after thawing, since an equally overlong single thawed period prior to cooking would be equally dangerous. Common sense should also prevail: a brief unthawed period before refreezing followed by cooking from frozen or after brief re-thawing, totalling the same as a single acceptable thawed period, should be OK, but the trick is being sure how long those periods actually were. (I have foregone linking to obviously relevant articles as you doubtless have the gumption to do so yourself.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.111 (talk) 12:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The Straight Dope writeup says it all, and it squares with my understanding also. Bottom line: If you refreeze and re-thaw, you're putting yourself at serious risk of food poisoning. And it won't taste as good as it did the first time around, in any case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Commercial freezing is extremely fast and efficient; domestic freezers cannot replicate it.As food is thawing,bacteria get a chance to grow,the slow freezing in a normal kitchen will not halt this straight away. Hotclaws (talk) 10:18, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Frazer Diner, Frazer, Pennsylvania

Was the Frazer Diner once used as a vietnamese restaurant during the 1990's/early 2000's? Although the Linh Diner moved to a nearby strip mall in Frazer, Pennsylvania, I am convinced that it once occupied the space known as the Frazer Diner.

Owners of the Linh Diner at the time were Hao and Tam Nguyen. Hao is now the owner of East Bradford Spa in Downingtown, Pa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.126.183 (talk) 13:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

This article indicates that Linh's Diner moved up the street to the strip mall where it now stands in 1988, and that Linh's used to occupy another diner nearby. However, that diner was unlikely to have been the Frazer Diner, which, according to this article from 2005, was in continuous operation under that name from 1972 until at least 2005, and apparently until today. However, Linh's clearly occupied another nearby diner space. Could it have been the diner now called The Classic Diner, like Frazer's Diner also located on Lancaster Avenue? Marco polo (talk) 20:34, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The original poster is correct. The Linh Restaurant (now called Bamboo) was previously located in the Frazer Diner, and was known as the Linh Diner at the time. The 2005 obituary cited contains incorrect information. By 1985 it had already changed to the Linh Diner.

Austria, Liesing (suburb of Vienna) 1000th anniversary

Within the past ten years the Hastings County School Choir of Canada was invited to sing at a 1000th year celebration of the creation of the district of Liesing. I would like to know at what church this performance took place. Thank you. John A. Geen (email address redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johngeen77 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed your email address because it is a target for spam hounds. Questions on this desk are not answered by email, you have to check back on this page for replies. I hope you do so, because I think I may have the answer for you. The 1000th anniversary of Liesing celebrations took place in 2003. This page (pdf file) is the district newsletter for June of that year. If you look at page 10 you will see a list of events (Termine). There is a concert listed by an American children's choir on 16 October 2003 in the Wotrubakirche. American could easily have been a mistake for Canadian. I have been to the Wotrubakirche many times, it is an interesting church in a modern architectural design. --Viennese Waltz 15:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

That might be a possibility, but I am doubtful because the page cited does not present the performance as part of the "1000 Jahre Liesing" celebration, whereas other events connected with the celebration do include that notation. Also, according to the German Wikipedia article on the district of Liesing, it was not created until 1938, so it could not have celebrated its 1000th anniversary. However, the district is named after the neighborhood and former village of Liesing. This village was founded in 1002, so it would have celebrated its 1000th anniversary in 2002. The Wotrubakirche is not in the neighborhood and former village of Liesing, which was celebrating its 1000th anniversary, but in the adjacent neighborhood and former village of Mauer. The most likely church for a commemoration of the founding of the village of Liesing would be the parish church of Liesing, the modern descendant of the village's original parish church. Here is the church's web page with contact information. You might contact the church to confirm whether that choir performed there. They can probably understand a query in English. Alternatively, you could contact the woman who organized the 1000-year anniversary, Frau Mag. Heide Liebhart (per this source). Her e-mail address is listed here. As she is obviously an educated woman, I'm sure she would understand English. Marco polo (talk) 15:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

After doing a little more research, I saw that the "1000 Jahre Leising" commemoration was framed as a celebration of the history of the entire district, even though it was the actual anniversary of the founding of the village after which the district was named. Therefore, it is entirely possible that an event that was part of this commemoration took place in the Wotrubakirche. Marco polo (talk) 18:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The Liesing district paper from 02.03 mentions "26.4., 19.45 h: Konzert eines amerikanischen Kinderchores, Wotrubakirche". Idem, 06.03 gives "16.10., 20.00 h Konzert von amerikanischem Kinderchor in der Wotrubakirche". Both refer to a concert of an (unnamed) American children´s choir in the church mentioned by V.waltz above. Liesing, now a district of Vienna, was mentioned first in 1000 AD as a minute hamlet but was destroyed in the course of the Ottoman sieges of 1529 and 1683. The millenium celebrations took place in 2003. However, Marco polo is correct in stating that Liesing was not a Viennese district until 1938. The millenium celebrations clearly had no connection to the district of Liesing, but - presumably - to some early medieval rights. Vienna around 1000 was a walled city (essentially the current first district) and a bunch of surrounding farming villages. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Becoming a school counsellor?

I'm thinking of studying psychology but I don't want have to be in university until I'm 30 to get a job out of it. I don't want to become a teacher either so would being a school counsellor be a good choice? What qualifications do you need in Victoria, Australia? --112.213.199.90 (talk) 17:06, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Asking a school counsellor in Australia would be a good choice because that is what they are there for. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:50, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Faux "foreign alphabet" in other alphabets?

You generally see text written in the Latin alphabet but in a font that "looks like" a different alphabet, such as Cyrillic, Chinese or Hindu. But are there cases where this is done with a different alphabet, such as a non-Latin alphabet "looking like" the Latin alphabet, or another non-Latin alphabet? JIP | Talk 17:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Our article on font calls them simulation/mimicry fonts, see alsoSamples of simulation typefaces. None of these links include examples for faux-Latin in non-Latin scripts, but the keywords "mimicry font" and "simulation font" might help find such examples. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I've seen Hebrew characters made to look like Arabic and, at the website of the so-called Jewish Autonomous Oblast, Cyrillic characters made to look like Hebrew. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(Just for reference, the OP is referring to something that would be the opposite of Volapuk encoding.) --Mr.98 (talk) 22:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Actually, nevermind. The OP means the opposite of Faux Cyrillic. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:46, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

For those intrigued by Mwalcoff's reference, here's the link. As for fonts in other scripts mimicking the Latin alphabet, I suspect they are rare, since nearly anyone who is literate in any script will be familiar with the Latin alphabet from logos, license plates (number plates), codes, the Internet, and so on. It's hard to pull off a faux version when most people are familiar with the real thing. Marco polo (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I've certainly seen texts in Thailand (product labels etc.) where Thai letters - while still Thai letters - are printed in a way rather resembling how Latin letters are usually printed. That is, the peculiar way the lines making up Thai letters are drawn is changed to something more like European fonts (e.g., the little circle ending some lines is made to look like a serif.) The end result is that many Thai letters in such a font look almost exactly like some Latin letters (with no related phonetic value). E.g, the Thai พ and ฬ appear just like Latin "w" (with different serifing); ล, very much like "a"; ร and ธ, like "s" (again, with different serifing); น like u; etc.

I have not seen that level of stylization in Chinese (that would be hard!), but you see a Chinese book cover occasionally (fiction mostly) where the artist has changed the shape of characters so that they are made of elements that are more characteristic of Latin script than of Chinese characters. (E.g., they'd use a circle where a Chinese character like 占 has a square; or the left ("radical") part of 话 would be more like an English "i"; etc).

In Cyrillic, the "look more like Latin" reform has actually already been carried out, and that look made mainstream: originally, in 1708 by Peter the Great in Russia (see http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cyrillic.htm ), and later picked by other countries like Bulgaria. E.g., the old-fashioned Cyrillic (or was it at the time) was made to look "Я", i.e. just like a mirror image of the Latin "R".

And of course just like the artist doing the cover of an English book or a poster of a movie about things Jewish or Arabic would sometimes draw English letters in a style reminiscent of Hebrew or Arabic (with fancy serifing style, loopy ends of strokes, etc), a Russian book artist working with a similar topic would sometimes similarly stylize Russian letters. (User:Mwalcoff above gives an example). -- Vmenkov (talk) 04:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The Samarkan Font is a Latin font that looks like Hindi. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Warning - the following link is to an image that's NSFW if you're the kind of person who likes to have their monitor upside down. See this T-shirt, which has hebrew letters on it that make no sense. When turned upside down, it's a rather rude message in English. It's a cheat though - it mixes Hebrew block script and Rashi script. --Dweller (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Q Chris, Dweller: I am well aware that there are Latin fonts that look like non-Latin scripts. I was asking if there's fonts that go the other way around. JIP | Talk 16:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

That is a non-Latin script (actually two) that has/have been made to look like a Latin one. <scratches head> --Dweller (talk) 16:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Wait, do you mean that the letters on the shirt are actual Hebrew letters, not just fancy-looking Latin letters turned upside down, and they just happen to look like Latin letters turned upside down? In this case, I assume that what it actually reads out in Hebrew is completely nonsensical? In that case, I see your point, but to be perfectly "the other way around", it should make sense in Hebrew and be nonsensical in Latin. The idea being that it would be intended to be read by a Hebrew speaker, and the Latin similarity was there just to give it a fancy foreign feel, not to be the whole point of the writing. JIP | Talk 16:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

All of those are actual Hebrew letters, not even very stylised, which can be turned upside down to look like slightly iffy Latin letters, yup. Of course, the Hebrew lettering doesn't form anything coherent. ╟─TreasuryTag►belonger─╢ 17:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I knew there'd been a question about this before. --ColinFine (talk) 20:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

See this image. The Russian text at the top says Орхан Памук and is supposed to resemble Arabic writing. I remember seeing an even better attempt on the cover of a Russian edition of a novel by Pamuk, and also an attempt to resemble the Devanāgarī writing system with Russian letters on the cover of another book, in a bookshop in Sofia, but I won't be able to recall those titles or find them on the web. --Theurgist (talk) 03:27, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Beautifully (in this context) the book title "Sneg" or "Snow" looks like "CHEr" in Latin script. SaundersW (talk) 08:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

What is a common pre-insurance cost for removing wisdom teeth?

I'm aware there are multiple variables involved (how impacted the teeth are, pain stuff given, dentist, state), but I'm really looking for a ballpark for the expected cost of removing all four of my wisdom teeth. I'm in the US by the way, North Carolina specifically if that matters. Chris M. (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I know this might seem obvious, but have you tried to call an oral surgeon to ask them? It would seem that if you picked a few and random from the phone book and said, "Hey, if I walked in off the street and offered to pay cash to yank some teeth out of my skull, what would it cost". I bet you could get a faster and more reliable answer than asking here. Just saying (oh, and I am in The Triangle area of NC and know a few good dentists, if you want to email me via the "email this user" function, I may have a few names). --Jayron32 19:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like someone else in the Triangle area has a similar question. Some of the responses indicate that having all four extracted runs around $2000. I don't know how that relates to insurance, since it will be highly dependent on what your dental plan covers. One suggestion given in that thread is to consider having them extracted at a dental school. You could try UNC Dental School, which is very highly rated. Another option would be ECU whose dental school was recently accredited. --- Medical geneticist (talk) 00:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Removal of coin fron a lucite block

How do I remove a gold coin from a lucite block. (4" x 4 " and 1" thick)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.63.247 (talk) 19:46, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Our article on lucite says it has a melting point of 320 °F (and the melting point of gold is much, much higher). It looks like melting/burning lucite may generate toxic fumes, though--so I'm not sure if you have a fume hood to use, or maybe you could do this outside.... Calliopejen1 (talk) 19:52, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't you just saw through the block? You can get most of it off that way, and fine work can be done with something like a dentist drill and a jeweler's loupe or other magnifier. --Jayron32 20:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(ec) I wouldn't attempt to melt away the lucite unless you are OK with risking permanently defacing the coin. If your goal is to sell the coin, I would just bring the whole lucite block to a coin dealer, who may have seen this before. Although even though a dealer could grade and price a coin through a clear lucite block, any given dealer may insist on measuring and weighing a gold coin before buying it, to make sure he's not buying a gold-plated fake coin. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Attempting to melt the resin isn't the way I'd do it. Acrylate casting resin isn't particularly strong, and you can probably get the coin out with a handsaw and a hammer-and-chisel. Hold it in a vice, and cut inwards from the narrow edges all round, to within as close as you feel comfortable cutting towards the coin. Depending on how good the bond is between the coin and the resin, it may just split on its own, or you may have to use the chisel (carefully) to split the block - I'd wear goggles, in case it shatters. You may end up with the coin still embedded in one half of the block, in which case you'll need to cut more away using similar methods - you could use solvents to soften the remainder once you have cut away the bulk of the resin. I'm not sure what solvent would work best, maybe someone else can advise here. Of course, if the coin is of exceptional value, you might do better to get this done by someone with experience. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Lucite is susceptible to many organic solvents, including, apparently, acetone [1], which is easily obtained. Organic solvents shouldn't damage a metal coin, but I'm not making any guarantees. As others have said, it's probably best to saw off as much of the plastic as possible, so that there isn't too much to dissolve (note: I've never tried to do this: depending on the value of the coin, it may be best to take it to a professional). Buddy431 (talk) 01:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Cutting with a saw is not a good idea. if you accidentally damage the coin ,depending on what the coin is, you could dramatically reduce it's value. Look at the lucite block. If it was encased by a bona fide dealer the block may have a stamp or mark verifying it's authenticity with a number which can be authenticated by that dealer, in which case another dealer should be able to verify without removing it from the block. It's also a good idea to check the coin's value with a couple of reputable dealers first. Internet works. Once you've established it's value parameters try to get a dealer to accept it as is. If you must take it out of the block I suggest putting it in a sealed glass jar with enough acetone or toluene/toluol to cover it. The block should fall apart after maybe a day or two. those solvents are very highly flamable so no smoking and do it outside. General rule "don't mess with the coin if you don't have to".190.56.125.187 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

arginine and methionine, is that synthetic creatine?

Amino acid supplement with arginine and methionine, is that synthetic creatine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bnestie (talk • contribs) 20:52, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Not exactly. See Creatine#Biosynthesis. Creatine is synthsized inside your body using three amino acids, Arginine, Methionine, and Glycine as starting materials. For normal people (i.e. those without certain conditions that may interfere with their body's ability to make creatine), you make all of the creatine you need to thrive, all by yourself, without taking any extra. Furthermore, if you are getting a balanced diet from a variety of foods, you are getting enough of those amino acids from your food intake such that you do not have to take the above amino acids as a suppliment. Even for people who have higher creatine demands (athletes, bodybuilders, etc.) the evidence is very sketchy that dietary intake of creatine or of amino acid suppliments, provides any real benefit over eating enough of the correct foods. It should also be noted that of the three amino acids noted above, only Methionine is an essential amino acid, that is your body is capable of making its own Arginine and Glycine as needed. --Jayron32 21:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Race vs. Soda Preference

Forgive me for reinforcing a stereotype, but why does it seem that African-Americans have often expressed a preference for fruit-flavored soda? From as blatant as a Family Guy episode to as dated as To Kill a Mockingbird, where the narrator claims that the blacks in one scene enjoyed "the more vivid flavors of Nehi Cola". How valid is this, and where could it have come from? Finalius (Say what?) 22:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I work with (mostly) white Australian kids. They tend to show the same preference. Is there a pattern here? HiLo48 (talk) 00:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think you're on to it. Poor people can't afford real fruit juices, so buy cheap imitations, like Kool-Aid. Therefore, in places where blacks are poorer than the average consumer, this means they drink more imitation "juice" than the average consumer does. There is also a secondary effect, that, like "soul food" (meaning food they were once forced to eat because they couldn't afford anything better), this then became part of their culture, so that even affluent blacks may still drink imitation fruit drinks. StuRat (talk) 07:34, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Fruit flavoured sodas are also very popular amongst Asians. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:02, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I like fruit-flavored sodas, and I'm as white as Brooke Shields. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

No true Scotsman! —Tamfang (talk) 03:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

This is one of those racial prejudice things, based in old-south (US) misconceptions about the 'African races' (i.e., that sweet, fruity things must appeal to them because their 'race' comes from the tropics where those such fruity things are easy pickings). It's the same prejudice that claims African Americans all crave watermelon, and pretty much on a level with saying that white men like BBQing because it's built into them from their ancient northern ancestors tracking and roasting game in the frozen wastes. In other words, silliness. --Ludwigs2 05:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

To the extent it is true, I think it is probably the case that White Americans are out of step with the rest of the world more than anything else. Fruit flavoured soda seems more popular just about everywhere else. Some have suggested that African-Americans were ignored by the massive cola marketing machines and so cheaper companies like Nehi were popular in the community. This from the PR Museum on Moss Kendrix Sr. who later did work for Coke with African-Americans for example.[2] Annecdotally, I remember seeing Magic Johnson say that Black people like fruit flavoured soda when he was giving a reporter a tour of one of his movie theatres. They were in the fountains at his chain of theatres which catered to African-Americans. --JGGardiner (talk) 08:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Bill Cosby was known for advertising Coca-Cola, and aside from the obvious generic celeberity endorsement, perhaps this was in part a blatant (if perhaps futile) effort to expand sales among minorities. On the other hand, I recall Cosby one time addressing the stereotype of black people and watermelons by making this simple statement: "Watermelon is good, man!" (A lot of white folks think so too.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:47, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

And this yellow man agrees with that sentiment. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:17, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm remembering when Archie Bunker tried rather feebly to offer bribes to a Black official, who eventually said "I don't like chicken—" (big grin) "but I love watermelon." — Seedless watermelon don't taste right, dammit, and that's all I can find anymore. —Tamfang (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)