User talk:Nick Moyes/Archive 8
 | This is an archive of past discussions with User:Nick Moyes. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
| Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
I have unreviewed a page you curated
Hi, I'm Boleyn. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed, Ntombi Lentheng Mekgwe, and have un-reviewed it again. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.
Boleyn (talk) 19:37, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Boleyn: No problem. She is clearly a notable politician, so and I have added references and removed the PROD. Many thanks. Nick Moyes (talk) 22:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Hi Nick, sorry, I misclicked and this was auto-sent. Thanks, Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Portals WikiProject heads up, April 27, 2018
We now have 52 members, and more are joining daily.
New and easier way to handle excerpts
Attention portal maintainers!
There's a new template to improve existing and new portals, called {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.
It is a lot easier to use than copying and pasting text from articles, as it displays the paragraphs you specify automatically for you.
It makes excerpts so that they are always current and never go stale or fork.
It is more powerful than it looks, because it has the Lua Module:Excerpt supporting it.
Be careful, as it is alpha software. Please notify the WikiProject talkpage of any problems you come across.
To give you a sense of the reaction this template is generating, here is an excerpt of a discussion thread from the WikiProject's talk page:
- This new template is fantastic. I've added it to the intro sections of the portals on Australian cities (eg P:PER) and it works brilliantly. My compliments to its creators. It can probably also be used in other sections of many portals (eg "Selected article" and "Selected biography"), and, for that reason, will probably make the task of maintaining portals a great deal easier. Bahnfrend (talk) 09:02, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for being so brave. Portal:Adelaide/Intro just got a lot simpler! Certes (talk) 10:43, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- Kudos on a wonderful template. — The Transhumanist 03:27, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
- This is amazing stuff. I'm going to get to work on using it on the selected content at most of these portals very soon. WaggersTALK 13:40, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
- Kudos on a wonderful template. — The Transhumanist 03:27, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
I wrote a comment in the the April 26 section of the RfC explaining what we are up to. I liked the excerpt above so much, that I went back to my RfC posting, and inserted it.
Please add Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals to your watchlist
Wish list
What's this? An old oil lamp. It's so dirty, I think I'll polish it...
*poof*
Whoa! Are you a WikiGenie? In that case, I get 3 wishes!
I wish...
- ...that Portal:Contents/Portals becomes up-to-date. (The missing entries are listed on the talk page, with instructions).
- ...the WikiProject to have Article Alerts. ({{WikiProject Portals}} templates have already been placed on all portal talk pages).
- ...that Portal:Cricket becomes a shining example of portal excellence. (It was the main example of a crappy and unmaintained portal at the RfC).
Please make my wishes come true. See you around the portals! — The Transhumanist 08:02, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
May 2018 at Women in Red
   
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(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language mailing list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list) --Rosiestep (talk) 23:11, 29 April 2018 (UTC) via MassMessaging |
Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.
Recent changes
- The parameter for unpatrolled edits in recent changes filters changed name. You might need to update saved filters and links. [1]
Problems
We are migrating wikis from Tidy to Remex. Because of a bug the 250 wikis which do not yet use Remex were switched on 23 April. This is two months early. This meant that pages with broken wikitext showed wrongly to readers. The bug was undone the next day. You can help fix broken wikitext to avoid this problem when your wiki switches. Tidy will be removed on all wikis before July 2018. You can follow the process on Phabricator. [2]
Changes later this week
- You will be able use CodeMirror in the 2017 wikitext editor on all wikis. CodeMirror helps with syntax highlighting. It has previously been a beta feature and only available on wikis with scripts that are written from left to right. [3]
- When an administrator blocks someone they will have a calendar they can use to choose when the block ends. This is to make it easier to pick a specific date. [4]
- You can soon turn on the Performance Inspector in the Editing section in your preferences. It shows information about the performance of pages. This could be the size of modules in the page, how many CSS selectors are defined on the page and how many are used, or the size of the images on the page. This tool is intended to help editors fix pages that load slowly. [5]
- There is a new abuse filter function called
equals_to_any. You can use it to check if its first argument is equal (===) to any of the following ones. For example you can use it to check if the page's namespace is amongst a given set of values in a more compact way than you could earlier. You can read more on mediawiki.org. 
The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 1 May. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 2 May. It will be on all wikis from 3 May (calendar).
Meetings
- You can join the next meeting with the Editing team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 1 May at 18:30 (UTC). See how to join.
- You can join the technical advice meeting on IRC. During the meeting, volunteer developers can ask for advice. The meeting will be on 2 May at 15:00 (UTC). See how to join.
Future changes
- The Wikimedia Cloud Services team is working on a new project called Toolhub. The goal is to make it easier for Wikimedians to discover software tools they can use. You can leave feedback on the talk page or email jhare
wikimedia.org to leave private feedback. - All wikis with fewer than 100 high-priority linter errors in all namespaces will switch to use the Remex parsing library. This is to replace Tidy. It will happen on 2 May. Other wikis will be recommended to switch soon when they have fixed the errors that must be fixed. Wikibooks wikis with fewer than 100 high-priority linter errors in the main namespace will switch on 9 May. Tidy will be removed on all wikis before July 2018. [6][7][8]
Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.
16:18, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
notability of Thierry Deuve
I opened a discussion about Thierry Deuve's notability in Talk:Thierry Deuve. I would be happy to get your input. DGtal (talk) 06:30, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Any feedback on your suggestions for Spring cleaning Teahouse landing page?
Hi Nick, forgot to ping you on your excellent ideas (and my response) at Talk: Teahouse -- Paulscrawl (talk) 03:16, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – May 2018
News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2018).
Administrator changes
None
Chochopk • Coffee • Gryffindor • Jimp • Knowledge Seeker • Lankiveil • Peridon • Rjd0060
Guideline and policy news
- The ability to create articles directly in mainspace is now indefinitely restricted to autoconfirmed users.
- A proposal is being discussed which would create a new "event coordinator" right that would allow users to temporarily add the "confirmed" flag to new user accounts and to create many new user accounts without being hindered by a rate limit.
Technical news
- AbuseFilter has received numerous improvements, including an OOUI overhaul, syntax highlighting, ability to search existing filters, and a few new functions. In particular, the search feature can be used to ensure there aren't existing filters for what you need, and the new
equals_to_anyfunction can be used when checking multiple namespaces. One major upcoming change is the ability to see which filters are the slowest. This information is currently only available to those with access to Logstash. - When blocking anonymous users, a cookie will be applied that reloads the block if the user changes their IP. This means in most cases, you may no longer need to do /64 range blocks on residential IPv6 addresses in order to effectively block the end user. It will also help combat abuse from IP hoppers in general. This currently only occurs when hard-blocking accounts.
- The block notice shown on mobile will soon be more informative and point users to a help page on how to request an unblock, just as it currently does on desktop.
- There will soon be a calendar widget at Special:Block, making it easier to set expiries for a specific date and time.
- AbuseFilter has received numerous improvements, including an OOUI overhaul, syntax highlighting, ability to search existing filters, and a few new functions. In particular, the search feature can be used to ensure there aren't existing filters for what you need, and the new
Arbitration
- The Arbitration Committee is seeking additional clerks to help with the arbitration process.
Obituaries
- Lankiveil (Craig Franklin) passed away in mid-April. Lankiveil joined Wikipedia on 12 August 2004 and became an administrator on 31 August 2008. During his time with the Wikimedia community, Lankiveil served as an oversighter for the English Wikipedia and as president of Wikimedia Australia.
Did You Know...?
Hi Nick, Nice to meet you... Yes I'd be interested in pursuing the idea of using a Did You Know...? spot for the page I created for William Eyton-Jones. Although you may need to walk me through it a little I'm afraid! Dan Petley (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi Dan Petley. I'am away from a keyboard for a few days. Bottom line is that a WP:DYK submission has to be put in within 7 days of going live. The guidelines are not easy to follow, but, taken step by step, I think you can do it with this article, providing you are willing to put in the effort to follow the instructions step by step. You'll need to identify at least one interesting'hook' with a clear suppoting inline reference, no copyvios, or quality issues. Having created the DYK template for your article, you then add it to in chronological order to the DYK nominations page. Your article will get assessed and you may well get feedback you will need to address. The whole process can take a few weeks or more before it gets on the main page as a DYK. But critical is creating the nomination within 7 days if article going live. As well as the guidelines in the dyk page, try this simple guide: User:Rjanag/Quick DYK 2. Hope thus helps. Nick Moyes (talk) 08:59, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
This is great, I'm well up for this... Thanks! Dan Petley (talk) 11:42, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
WikiProject Portals Overview, May 04, 2018
Thank you for being a member of the Portals WikiProject, and thank you for all the work you have all been doing on the portal namespace. To see the activity, check out the watchlist.
This is our 3rd issue, see previous issues at the Newsletter archive.
Top priority: Main list of portals needs updating
The top, and one of the most visible parts, of the portal system is Portal:Contents/Portals, which is intended to list all (completed) portals on Wikipedia.
About half of the missing existing portals have been added since this WikiProject's reboot (April 17th). Thank you to RockMagnetist, TriNitrobrick, Polyamorph, PratyushSinha101, Ganesha811, Bermicourt, Javert2113, Noyster, Ɱ, Lepricavark, XOR'easter, and Emir of Wikipedia, for working on this.
We are half-way to completion with this. We need everyone to chip in until it is done. Instructions, and the list of missing entries are at Portal talk:Contents/Portals#These are not listed yet.
I hope you'll join me there. ("Many hands make light work").
Thank you.
Membership
We're at 66 members, with more joining daily. We even have 6 WikiGnomes!
Special thanks
I have awarded Certes with a portals barnstar on his talk page for his work on the new excerpt templates that are revolutionizing the portal system (Template:Transclude lead excerpt & Template:Transclude random excerpt). If you'd like to show your appreciation, please feel free to stop by his talk page and add your signature to the barnstar itself.
Thank you Certes. You are enabling this WikiProject to get the right things done, fast.
By the way, the templates have already gone international. After being told about the templates, Mossab wrote:
Thanks You very much!. Those are fantastic and great templates! I transferred them to Arabic Wikipedia and they do a magic great job. I worked to improve portal anatomy here and i do every thing i can to improve it and i am very sad for the nomination for deletion of portals :(. I am glad to be member on WikiProject Portals and i added my name with pleasure. Kind regards
RFC
As you know, the (April 8th) proposal to delete all portals and the portal namespace inspired the reboot of this WikiProject. RfCs typically run for 30 days, which means there are 5 days left including today, before the RfC will be closed. The !votes are predominantly "oppose", but many editors have shared their disappointment with the portal system. We have our work cut out for us in correcting the problems of the portals to address their concerns. Complaints ranged from being out of date and lacking maintenance, to taking up the time of editors that they felt (due to low traffic) would be better spent improving articles.
Anti-WikiProject drama
This past week has been somewhat stressful for me, with more than a little conflict...
It culminated with my being reported at the Administrator's Noticeboard "for spamming and canvassing". This is the second time I've been reported there during the RfC; the first one was for posting notices of the deletion discussion (the RfC) at the top of all portal pages.
The accusations were 1) Posting notices of the deletion discussion (the RfC) at the top of all portal pages, 2) Adding an Article alerts section to the Portals WikiProject page, and 3) posting notices (invitations) about this WikiProject on user talk and portal talk pages.
None of which fall under the Wikipedia definitions of spamming or canvassing.
Thank you, Lionelt and Lepricavark, for coming to my rescue. I don't know how the discussion would have turned out if you had not spoken up.
The discussion was closed as "no action necessary".
After that, the person responsible posted their thoughts to my talk page. Here they are, with my response:
Congratulations, it appears your relentless targeted advertising of the RFC, your beating the RFC Supporters with a stick by posting countless times there, your dishonest insistence that Current Events was on the chopping block, and your obstruction of clean up efforts at MfD are paying dividends. Have fun playing with Portal space where no one will read your work. I'm sure someone will eventually clean up the mess when your interest wanes. Cheers. Legacypac
- Thank you. I accept your congratulations on behalf of Wikiproject Portals and the portal-loving community – it was a team effort. In addition, I'd like to clarify some things about your claims above...
- Each page nominated for deletion must have a notice at the top of its page, per the deletion guideline. Not to have one there, would be unfair to those who use such pages, and would constitute a secret deletion tribunal. We don't do things that way on Wikipedia.
- As new facts became available (e.g., a motivated and thriving WikiProject to support the portals, new building blocks, etc.), it was appropriate to post the developments to the RfC, to support informed decision making.
- Proposals are literal, not figurative. The proposal specified "all portals". All means all.
- The fact is, the rebooted WikiProject is cleaning up the mess, rather rapidly. By updating and upgrading the portals, rather than getting rid of them.
- I think I'll be hanging around for awhile, but the project is more than likely to achieve critical mass and may outlive us all, due in part to the development of tools to assist editors in building, upgrading, and maintaining portals that are fully dynamic and self-updating.
- Portals are more fun to work with than ever. Thank you for your role in making this happen. You made us try even harder, and inspired us to pull together as a team. You'll have a warm place in our hearts, forever. The Transhumanist
- Thank you. I accept your congratulations on behalf of Wikiproject Portals and the portal-loving community – it was a team effort. In addition, I'd like to clarify some things about your claims above...
Automatically refreshed excerpts
The main advancement we've made so far is applying selective transclusion Transclusion is template technology, showing a page on another page. Selective transclusion shows only part of that page. We use it to show excerpts that always match the source. The two templates we have so far, are Template:Transclude lead excerpt and Template:Transclude random excerpt.
Obsoleting subpages
Excerpts are migrating toward the base page of each portal, and where this is done, a subpage is no longer needed.
Template:Transclude lead excerpt will be able to be used to put the intro excerpt directly on the portal page, rather than on an intro subpage, once we adapt a portal design to accommodate this.
Template:Transclude random excerpt is currently being used on 1st-level subpages, and eliminates the need for 2nd-level subpages. (Many portals have 2 levels of subpages).
There are about 1500 portals, but there are around 148,000 subpages in portal space. Further discussions are needed to develop designs and components that do not require them.
It is my hope that the portal of the future will be a single page, or close to it, pulling in excerpts from specified dynamic sources (like category pages), filtered by ratings. This would obviate the need for subpages at all (except for maybe the header and footer subpages, which store a portal's settings). A more likely near-term solution would be subpages with a list maintained by a bot, or editors using semi-automatic tools.
New portals
Since the reboot, a new portal has been created:
Please watchlist these pages
Some central pages in the portal system. The more eyes on them, the better.
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals
- User:The Transhumanist (there's a fair amount of portal project traffic on my talk page these days)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Portal/List of all portals/Page 1
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Portal/List of all portals/Page 2
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Portal/List of all portals/Page 3
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Portal/List of all portals/Page 4
- Wikipedia:Portal:Portal Example portal. And funny.
- Portal:Contents/Portals
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Culture and the arts
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Geography and places
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Health and fitness
- Portal:Contents/Portals/History and events
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Infobox
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Intro
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Mathematics and logic
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Natural and physical sciences
- Portal:Contents/Portals/People and self
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Philosophy and thinking
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Portal nav footer
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Reference
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Religion and belief systems
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Society and social sciences
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Technology and applied sciences
- Portal:Contents/Portals/Topic
Wrapping up...
There's more in the works, like a rating system, further redesigns, etc. Keep an eye on the discussions on the project's talk page. They should start showing up there soon.
Hope to see you there. Sincerely, — The Transhumanist 06:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Hello, Ohh thank you for telling me I'm glad, I understand your opinion about the article, of Kristel de Catalina "eat for known" it's really well somethings come to my attention I feel like in Wikipedia by other editor insulting and target me, yes I made my mistakes that I have do I regret it no, I really don't no, it's seems like i vandal those adding my contributions article but didn't, I didn't my intention to other editor, it's embarrassing to me. Example I add the filmographies, revert revert repeatedly, that all know because Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia social media. So annoying, well thanks for that, Sincerely Jhoven Sulla (talk) 02:58, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Wiki Loves Food
Hello! After the successful pilot program by Wikimedia India in 2015, Wiki Loves Food (WLF) is happening again in 2018 and this year, it's going International. To make this event a grand success, your direction is key. Please sign up here as a volunteer to bring all the world's food to Wikimedia. Danidamiobi (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
DYK for Syracosphaera azureaplaneta
On 7 May 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Syracosphaera azureaplaneta, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that a newly discovered plankton species, Syracosphaera azureaplaneta, has been named in honour of the BBC TV documentary series The Blue Planet, and its presenter, Sir David Attenborough? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Syracosphaera azureaplaneta. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Syracosphaera azureaplaneta), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.
Recent changes
- The Wikimedia Commons mobile app has a new version. It is now easier to find nearby places that need pictures. It helps you with direct uploads and title and category suggestions. The app only works on Android phones. [9]
Problems
- The abuse filters had a problem with blocks where you had changed how long they last. It used the default length everywhere. This was in late April. Abuse filter users should make sure the right block length is used and change them if needed. This is only for filters where how long blocks last had been changed. [10]
Changes later this week
- The advanced search function beta feature will be on all Wikimedia wikis. It makes it easier to use some of the special search functions that most editors don't know exist. [11]
- The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 8 May. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 9 May. It will be on all wikis from 10 May (calendar).
Meetings
- You can join the next meeting with the Editing team. During the meeting, you can tell developers which bugs you think are the most important. The meeting will be on 8 May at 18:30 (UTC). See how to join.
- You can join the technical advice meeting on IRC. During the meeting, volunteer developers can ask for advice. The meeting will be on 9 May at 15:00 (UTC). See how to join.
Future changes
- All wikis with fewer than 100 high-priority linter errors in the main namespace will switch to use the Remex parsing library. This is to replace Tidy. It will happen on 16 May. Other wikis will switch soon when they have fixed the errors that must be fixed. Tidy will be removed on all wikis before July 2018. [12][13]
Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.
16:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
A page you started (Smart drum trigger) has been reviewed!
Hello Nick Moyes, thank You for the review. The technical solution i described on the page "Smart drum trigger" is different than the re-directed thing. It is not the same. The Smart drum trigger is an original solution confirmed by local and international patent grants. Please consider the following documents: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2017200427A1 https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2616911C1 Best Wishes! ILYA Mudrenov — Preceding unsigned comment added by MudrenovILYA (talk • contribs) 05:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hello, MudrenovILYA. I appreciate you responding to me-thank you. Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not here to promote individual inventions, and relies solely on in-depth coverage of each topic from reliable sources that are independent of that topic. A Google patent clearly fails that because it's not independent of the subject, and nor are you. So can you now, or are you ever likely be able to prove that a smart drum trigger is Notable as Wikipedia defines it? If not, I advise you not to add anything to the destination page, but simply to leave the WP:REDIRECT in place. As the inventor, you are too closely connected to the topic, and we are not here to promote or advertise your ideas, no matter how worthy they may seem. My advice is just to leave the redirect alone, only adding to the destination page (Trigger (drums)) once you have reliable coverage in music magazines, books or whatever. If you want the page to remain like this, I am confident it will be very speedily deleted. I am sorry for being the bearer of bad news. I know how disappointing it is for a newcomer to have their work deleted, so my attempt at a redirect was to avoid that situation. You probably need to read Wikipedia:Your first article, and in future prepare an article in draft or in your sandbox, and then submit it via Articles for Creation to avoid disappointment. Regards from the UK, Nick Moyes (talk) 08:32, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
You are welcome, and thanks for the heads up
Concerning the deletion discussion notices, I tracked down all other portals using the following methods:
- Did a scan of the database dump from 02/20, for all portal pages not including a slash.
- Used AWB's make list feature to list all pages in the portal namespace, then filtered out all those with a slash
Many of them are incomplete portals that never got listed or linked to. They might be watchlisted by their creators, and so the notices could get noticed.
By the way, I noticed you receive the tech newsletter. I happen to have a little tech of my own to report...
I've been learning JavaScript because I want to help automate things on Wikipedia. I'd like to fully automate page construction, but that is a ways down the road.
In the meantime, while I'm learning, I've been building semi-automated (interactive) software tools for Wikipedia.
One that I've recently created is SearchSuite.
It enhances search results and makes copying/pasting results to lists (including outlines) very easy.
It's also good as a general navigation aid, as it can reformat search results to 1 item per line, stripping out all details. Great for browsing lots of topics fast.
It can also sort.
Each feature is presented as a menu item to turn it on and off. And the script remembers the switch positions between pages.
I hope you find it useful. All feedback is welcome. — The Transhumanist 06:46, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@The Transhumanist: Thanks for getting in touch. I hope my comment on missed Portals didnt sound like a criticism - I'm glad someone took the initiative! I was appalled that at least two respected editors felt that not informing all 1515 Portals that their demise was being discussed was an acceptable way for us to go about things. I do use AWB myself, but so far only for basic tasks like spelling/grammar checking.. I'd love to have more techie abilities for developing scripts. I can just about tweak a simple script to meet my needs (like Lupin's spellcheck tool) - but only the simple things around the edges. I monitor the Tech News because of my work as a Teahouse host. I thought it helpful to keep one eye on future changes that might impact on new user questions. I love the idea if your Search Tool enhancement. I'll definitely give that a go sometime, and let you know if I encounter any issues. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 09:14, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
- No worries. You were being semantically accurate. You prompted me to find every last one of them. Thank you.
- It is interesting that you said "I'd love to have more techie abilities for developing scripts." There is another approach I've been working on, that you might be interested in. For each script I develop, I turn its talk page into a workshop page, as the development area for that script. Each workshop has several features, one of which is a section for a detailed walk-through of the source code, statement-by-statement and line-by-line.
- One weird thing about programming is that you can build scripts using bits and pieces from other people's code, without knowing how it works. But, to be able to write code yourself, you've eventually got to learn it. So, I'd spend hours or days figuring out how it worked, with trial-by-error tweaking. Then, after not looking at it for weeks or months, it would look like Greek again when I returned to it. Like I'd never seen it before. It became a learning curve each time. So I started writing the walk-throughs to get myself back up to speed fast. A quick read, and it all comes flooding back.
- And since they are essentially tutorials explaining the specific scripts, others might find them useful for learning programming in context.
- The cost to me is, that it is as time consuming, if not more so, than the programming. And so it is easy to fall behind on writing them. I'm behind on the walk-throughs for some of my scripts, but I'll look through them and will point out to you which ones have the most complete treatments. In case you are interested.
- I'll be in touch. — The Transhumanist 10:00, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
- @The Transhumanist: Sorry if I made you more work! I've also just realised that WikiProjects themselves are liable to be deeply affected by this RfC and editors there might have mixed opinions - especially if there are moves to make/encourage them to take over content from 1500 Portal pages. Would it be a lot of work for you to inform each via their talk pages of the RfC? I think that would be sensible, and firmly meets the first criterion under WP:APPNOTE. Regarding your script, yes - I saw that you'd made quite detailed explanatory pages, and that could certainly assist learners - I may well try to look through if I dare. Like you, I've found that writing detailed explanatory notes on using complex tools like GIS software are very helpful when you only perform an essential task once or twice a year. Whether I have enough free time to take on another learning task on yet another area of Wikipedia, I don't know! We'll see. (I still rue the loss of .BAT files which I did understand. But then I did my Ham Radio licence exam on valve theory, because transistors were only just coming into general use back then. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
- Not too much work. But I'm not sure it will be needed. The opposes are coming in faster than the supports. They're trailing by only a handful of posts. I expect it will likely be closed due to deadlock soon. — The Transhumanist 13:23, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
- @The Transhumanist: Well, although you could be right, I still believe from WP:APPNOTE that informing WikiProjects would still be most appropriate. And even if it were to be closed early, they do all need to be made aware of the proposals that could potentially still affect them - especially if, as I suspect, we're likely to see a flurry of individual WP:MFD nominations and 'merge' proposals in the future. In fact a few came to light in these duscussions that are so narrow in scope that I'd gladly nominate them for deletion myself. Maybe, moving forwards, we need a discussion on content, maintenance and marking individual portals as being moribund/historical. Perhaps some rebranding is also needed? I'd be happy for us to call them something like 'Topic Tasters', and to create a help sheet on maintaining them. When I first wanted to help improve Portal:Alps I found it hard to understand how it was constructed and edited. The wails about lack of maintenance could have been addressed if Portals had helped themselves by having a 'Want to help maintain this Portal?' link on them, taking a user to the guidance page, alluded to above. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 08:36, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- Not too much work. But I'm not sure it will be needed. The opposes are coming in faster than the supports. They're trailing by only a handful of posts. I expect it will likely be closed due to deadlock soon. — The Transhumanist 13:23, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
- @The Transhumanist: Sorry if I made you more work! I've also just realised that WikiProjects themselves are liable to be deeply affected by this RfC and editors there might have mixed opinions - especially if there are moves to make/encourage them to take over content from 1500 Portal pages. Would it be a lot of work for you to inform each via their talk pages of the RfC? I think that would be sensible, and firmly meets the first criterion under WP:APPNOTE. Regarding your script, yes - I saw that you'd made quite detailed explanatory pages, and that could certainly assist learners - I may well try to look through if I dare. Like you, I've found that writing detailed explanatory notes on using complex tools like GIS software are very helpful when you only perform an essential task once or twice a year. Whether I have enough free time to take on another learning task on yet another area of Wikipedia, I don't know! We'll see. (I still rue the loss of .BAT files which I did understand. But then I did my Ham Radio licence exam on valve theory, because transistors were only just coming into general use back then. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 10:52, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Portals WikiProject update, April 22, 2018
Thank you for joining the Portals WikiProject.
Here's our first project-wide update. I hope you enjoy it...
Reboot
The WikiProject reboot has been a success: the new re-envisioned project is up and running, with new members, ongoing discussions about automation, design, and upkeep; maintained task queques; and updates to members, like this, the very first one!
As you know, there's a proposal to delete all portals. It started out looking pretty dismal for portals, with primarily posts supporting their demise. It turned out that the proposer didn't post a deletion notice on the very pages being nominated for deletion (a requirement for all deletion discussions). Once that was done, a flood of opposition came in and has apparently turned the tide.
RfCs generally run for 30 days. It started April 8th, and so it has about 14 more days to run its course.
The more work we can do during that time on the portals, the stronger the reasons for keeping them will be. And the more prepared we will be for any MfDs that follow the closing of the RfC.
AWB?
You may be wondering why we asked for AWB experience in the member-sign-up list.
We are gearing up to do maintenance runs on the entire set of portals, and the more people we have who can use AWB, the better.
But we're not quite ready to start this yet.
To be able to use AWB on the portals, we first need to know what the end result needs to be. Like on the news sections, do we comment out the out-of-date ones, or do we place the code to activate the newsbot on those pages? That would require an assessment of WikiNews and its news generating performance (areas covered, volume in each area), etc.
You can help us figure this out at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals#Discussions about news sections.
Another area we're gearing up for, to do passes with AWB, are upgrades to the intro sections of portals. Many of these have static (copied/pasted) excerpts that go stale over time.
We're trying to figure out how to make self-updating excerpts to replace the existing static excerpts that are on many portals, and once this is done, AWB will be used to place the new code. See the discussion on this at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals#Discussions about selective transclusion in intros.
"What can I do?"
There are 3 major areas of activity right now:
Update the main portal list at Portal:Contents/Portals
There are a few hundred existing portals that are missing from this list.
The list of missing entries, and instructions on what to do, can be found at Portal talk:Contents/Portals#These are not listed yet.
We need everybody's help on this. It's a big chore for one persons. But, many hands make light work. Please help chip away at this chore as much as you can. A little each day, form all of us, will get this done pretty quick.
Familiarize yourself with the portal system
In addition to browsing the portals in the 2 lists mentioned in the section above, you should take a look at the portal name space itself and what is in it.
That can be done at Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#Watchlist.
Join in on the discussions
There are discussions on many aspects of the WikiProject's operations, with more to come.
Such as about the purposes and functions of portals, design discussions, and so on.
There's even a automated design discussion over at Village Pump Technical, on selective transclusion.
I hope to see you on the talk page.
What's coming?
In addition to the automation efforts mentioned above, we will be looking into how to automate the selection and display of alternating excerpts, and alternating pictures, for the various portal sections.
Watch for these discussions on the Wikiproject's talk page.
Summing up...
Get ready, get set, go! — The Transhumanist 22:54, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
P.S.: The main example given at the RfC of the problems of portals was Portal:Cricket. Therefore, it's the top priority portal to update. Please lend a hand. - TT
WikiProject Portals update, 11 May 2018
We've grown to 73 members, and morale is high. Thank you for joining. Here is some news, and some tasks...
The RfC will be closed soon...
2018-05-11: preparations are being made to close the RfC. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure#Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/RfC: Ending the system of portals.
When there, be sure to notice the consultation link.
We're trying to get a prototypical single-page portal developed in time to show the RfC closers before they make their final decision. You can help. It's Portal:Humanism. So far, we've applied selective transclusion (automation) to excerpts, and have made the following sections without subpages: intro, selected article, selected biography, categories, related portals, wikiprojects, things to do, and wikimedia. Eight down, 4 to go, plus 2 formatting subpages (not sure we can migrate those). Automating every section, would also be nice.
Main objectives
Our main objectives currently, are:
- Replace static excerpts with selective transclusions, so that the excerpts always stay fresh (that is, match the source content). We are now doing this on the portal base page as much as possible, to reduce the number of subpages that are needed. See #2...
- Migrate the functions of subpages to the portal base pages. There are around 150,000 subpages in portal space. We aim to make these obsolete by using templates and other calls from the portal base pages.
- Improve portal design to make portals self-update. Semi-dynamic sections update from a static list, as used in {{Transclude random excerpt}}. Fully-dynamic sections would update from a list maintained elsewhere on Wikipedia, like a category. We haven't found a way to do this yet, other than to create a bot (which we will probably need to do).
Maintenance pass #1: Upgrading the intro section
The intro section of many portals transcludes an "Intro" subpage that has an excerpt in it.
We're replacing that with a selective transclusion directly in the intro section, bypassing the subpage. Though, there's a little more to it...
For instructions, see: Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#Transclude intro excerpt directly on the portal base page.
Please skip Portal:American Civil War, as that is specifically being maintained by hand.
Maintenance pass #2: Obsoleting the Wikimedia subpages
One of the sections on many portals links to sister projects on the subject. This needlessly takes a subpage. The subpage can be made obsolete by using the template {{Wikimedia for portals}} directly on the portal base page.
This has been done for several hundred portals so far.
See Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#Obsolete a Wikimedia subpage for instructions.
Maintenance pass #3: calling the category tree from the portal base page
Certes figured out how...
{{subst:Text|<category|tree>}}{{subst:PAGENAME}}{{subst:Text|</categorytree>}}
For more information, see the thread Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#Rendering PAGENAME inside categorytree tag doesn't work (it does now).
More to come...
In the meantime, see ya around the portals! — The Transhumanist 15:51, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for the links Nick! While finding where to type this, I read everything on here and I think I became inspired... Anyway, I have looked at some of them and they really helped. Again, thanks! Searcher of useful facts01 (talk) 05:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Notability of Isola
Nick, regarding your notability post for Isola (comics), I've updated the page now that the issue is out with a "Reception" section that hopefully fulfils your criteria. —Hellboybookeeper (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.
Recent changes
- Dynamic maps are now available on most Wikipedias. Labels on maps can also be in different languages.
- The new Advanced Search interface is now available as a Beta Feature on all wikis. This makes it easier to learn about and to use many of the powerful options in our search. Feedback is appreciated. [14]
Changes later this week
- The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 15 May. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 16 May. It will be on all wikis from 17 May (calendar).
Meetings
- You can join the technical advice meeting on IRC. During the meeting, volunteer developers can ask for advice. The meeting will be on 16 May at 15:00 (UTC). See how to join.
Future changes
- In the mobile view, warnings for when something is wrong with a page are not as clear as they should be. The developers are working on this. You can give feedback and suggestions.
- The developers are working on making the Wikipedia Android app available in more languages. You can give feedback, suggestions and help test it. Read more on mediawiki.org [15]
Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.
22:23, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Portals WikiProject update, 15 May 2018
We are at 74 members. If you know anyone who might find this WikiProject interesting, please invite them.
The RfC has ended
The RfC was closed May 11th, and a closing statement was posted May 12th which says "There exists a strong consensus against deleting or even deprecating portals at this time."
Ongoing tasks
Some major activities that we are in the middle of include:
- Adding the missing existing portals to the main portals list at Portal:Contents/Portals. Instructions are on the talk page. There are about 125 portals left to be processed. (There were 400). Keep up the good work!
- Development discussions on how to migrate the subpages to the base pages. There are around 150,000 subpages in portal space, associated with the various sections on a typical portal. We are trying to obsolete them section type by section type. Currently, we're working on obsoleting the intro subpages and the "selected articles" subpages. Please join in.
Other tasks
- The list of portals not ready to be listed on the main list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#These are not listed yet (scroll down to see them - they are marked
Not ready). They are incomplete. If you want a specific portal to work on, please consider choosing one from that list. - Over the years, some incomplete portals (portals under construction) got added to Portal:Contents/Portals. Therefore, every portal listed there needs to be inspected, and any that are incomplete should be removed from that list and added to the not ready list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals#These are not listed yet (scroll down to see it). On Portal:Contents/Portals, I'm already almost done inspecting the portals in the culture section, and so you can skip those. The types of things to look for are empty sections (most will have a redlinked subpage), lack of "selected" sections, portal stubs with just an intro and end sections, and very poor layout (like seriously unbalanced columns).
Portal-building resources
During his work on portals, Broter found a quote randomizer. It is {{Random quotation}}.
Trailblazer: approaching the one-page portal
Broter has transformed the Portal:Community of Christ so it is comprised of only 3 pages in portal space: the base page, its box-header subpage, and its box-footer subpage. Its other other subpages are now obsolete and are waiting for deletion. Nice job, Broter!
Well, that's all for now. See ya around the portals. — The Transhumanist 06:39, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
Can you give me some help with Portal:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart?
I wish to start a portal about Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, but I am not very good with the coding, so please can I have some help? Here is the page: Portal:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. I would also like the background to be carmine colour (##960018), and the text to be gold colour (#FFD700). Thank you! --Mozart834428196 (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi, Mozart834428196. You're probably aware there was a recent RFC which proposed the deletion of all portals? Thankfully, consensus was in favour of their retention, and there's now a lot of work going on to ensure that all Portals are properly maintained, and that pages that serve no purpose are deleted. If you genuinely feel that a new portal on Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart would serve as a topic taster to his life and work in a manner that the existing page does not, and that it would be be well-maintained, then that's really great. There are currently huge changes happening to the way Portals are operated, though I don't think there's yet any new guidance on how to properly build a new one and to maintain them. I don't think I am the right one to advise or help you, as I only help maintain previously constructed portals. Might I suggest you either post your question on the talk page of Wikipedia:WikiProject Portals, or on the talk page of User:The Transhumanist who has done an absolutely brilliant job of defending them and ensuring their retention and in working towards new ways of running them? My one note of real concern on your ambition is to observe that you've only been on Wikipedia for three weeks, so I do wonder whether you'll stick around to see it through. Whilst there's currently no obligation to gain concensus for creating a new Portal, I might suggest you would do well to raise the proposal at the Talk page of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music to see who might be willing to assist you in determining what content is appropriate, and what is not. It's very easy to start a project and not see it through, or to maintain it. It was for those reasons that many editors were in favour of the deletion of every single Portal. Good luck! Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:34, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Mozart834428196: as Nick conveyed above, things have changed quite a lot, and are continuing to change pretty fast. So, don't worry too much about being a portal maintainer, but by all means be a portal builder! Once you have the portal set up fully, it will almost run completely on its own, and whoever else is around after that could easily maintain it. Once we (the WikiProject) are done developing tools for portals, portals will be fully automated after their initial build, and will be contained almost fully on a single page. For now though, some subpages are needed (like for pictures).
- Check out the portal now. I've given you a more developed starting point, using some of our new coding (much easier). To stick in your colors, go to Portal:Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart/box-header. There are also notes in most of the sections on how to complete them. Though, for the picture section, click on the redlink, and insert a file in the new page that opens up. Keep doing that until no more redlinks come up. That will give you a selection of 5 pictures that the portal will randomly show.
- Feel free to change anything you want. Don't worry about making errors, as everything is fixable. Also feel free to ask further questions. And, above all, have fun.
- Portals use templates extensively, so it would help you to read up on those. The template used for the "selected" sections is Template:Transclude random excerpt.
- By the way, what other portals are you interested in building? — The Transhumanist 07:55, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- It would be quite good if we could make a Georgian Era portal. I advise the title Portal:Georgian Era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mozart834428196 (talk • contribs) 12:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- Also, in that portal, you could have a "selected Georgian satirical cartoon". --Mozart834428196 (talk) 12:30, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
- It would be quite good if we could make a Georgian Era portal. I advise the title Portal:Georgian Era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mozart834428196 (talk • contribs) 12:26, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
Nicola Spence
Thank you for reviewing the article. I'll go in an make those fixes thanks. When I am tired sometimes the temptation to use a bare link gets the better of me...Million_Moments (talk)
- @Million Moments: No worries. I know what you mean, though. For that reason I like to prepare stuff as a draft or work on new articles in my sandbox, so I can get it all looking right before it goes live. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 14:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Are you able to help?
Hello Nick. I've resumed editing today after a sustained absence (and after tonight, I will be absent again but only for a week or two). I've just been reading the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting article and in its history I spotted this revert of yours[16], and subsequent examination led me to a conversation between you and the editor who was blocked as a sockpuppet (I make no comment on the accuracy but have no affiliation to any other accounts myself), and here I noticed this comment you made[17].
In the months before I briefly left the project, I was involved in edit disputes and talk page debate over a similarly related binary matter at White Helmets (Syrian Civil War). If your above comment and the reverts of User:Fake News Extinguisher are correct, would you not say that the second paragraph of White Helmets is a clear breach of NPOV procedure? It brazenly asserts in the Wikipedia voice that all exposure of the Helmets as terrorists is a "conspiracy theory", is "disinformation", and the sources in question "falsely promote" certain things.
These claims carry the burden of proof, and it simply isn't adequate to argue that "ABC sources claim this is so and they are classed as reliable" while "XYZ sources say the opposite and they are unreliable" because in this scenario, it is a deadlock. To that end, continuously haemorrhaging "RS" actually begs the question rather than provides sound reasoning for the claims.
The impasse is by all accounts divided down the usual partisan lines, but I am more inclined to go along with the quality of one's arguments rather than "who" said it. That means I would rather rewrite the entire article and present the Helmets for what they are, associates of Al-Qaeda. However, I also know the purpose of Wikipedia and do not wish to do this. I simply believe that a more neutral passage needs to be written that gives parity to the rival narratives. A point to note is that when I last looked at the article in 2018, only three groupings were "spreading disinformation": Russian sources, Iranian sources, and Syrian government sources.
At some point in the last 18 months, somebody added a Chinese source to the "disinformation" bundle. The band of editors hell-bent on presenting the Helmets as the cuddly band of non-dangerous fanatics have also objected in the most withering terms to add other writers/commentators from outside of the Russian/Iranian/Syrian/Chinese circle being adduced as sources. I refer to persons such as George Galloway, Eva Bartlett and former Pink Floyd bassist Roger Waters, a man whose notability stretches to political activism (thereby deeming irrelevant his status as a musician). Can you see where this is going? I personally know of two more national news sources that expose the Helmets as terrorist-affiliated, and I am sure there is much much more, but in the current paradigm those sources would just be added to the "disinformation" bundle for no other reason than that is the side they are on, and all just to accommodate the other side's WP:TRUTH.
Could I ask you, if you haven't been involved in the past, to provide your own input on the article and/or the talk? I'd appreciate that a lot. --Coldtrack (talk) 21:16, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Coldtrack: Goodness... I will try and take a look when I have some clear headspace, though this isn't my area of expertise. (Forgive me for adding paragraph breaks to your post - I just needed to see and digest it in bite-sized chunks.) Nick Moyes (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- By all means this is your talk page! :)))) No rush. I don't expect to be online this next 10 or so days anyhow. Thanks for the acknowledgement! Warmest regards. --Coldtrack (talk) 22:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so I spent an hour and a half looking into this. Sorry i couldn't do more. It seems the main disagreement is that you like the word 'criticism' whilst others want to use the phrase 'sustained disinformation', and that you've been edit warring with others a bit over that - maybe for a couple of years - but also noting that there has been prior discussion on the Talk Page, plus a recent post from you, reiterating your concerns. Unfortunately, unlike the diff of mine that you cited to the page on [[Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting]], here I see a statement in the lead which does summarises what reliable mainstream media like The Guardian have reported, and which are expnded in the remainder of the article. Having looked at those sources, I tend to side with the view which is opposite to the one that you take - sorry. In fact, I have added a quotation from the The Guardian which I feel justifies the use of both 'sustained' and of 'disinformation', and the assertion that Russian TV has played its part in that campaign. Whilst I haven't added in references in my reply here, I would suggest that you consider always including both diffs and citations when you want to put forward an argument to support your view - it makes the job a lot easier if one can hear what the editor is saying, and then immediately see the source(s) they are basing their editing position upon. Just a suggestion to facilitate collaboration. Sorry I can't be more supportive of your perspective, but I must admit to very little experience in this field and have simply followed the sources. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 23:08, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- I appreciate your effort in looking into the issue and time in commenting. So you know, "disinformation" is an assertion which carries the burden of proof. To this end, dissenting voices such as what you read in the Guardian do not cut the mustard as they have not demonstrated their accusation that "the other side is lying". The issue is that rival narratives exist and sadly, they are always divided down the usual partisan lines. Although I cannot be sure which Guardian piece you refer to, I know that the Guardian does not report anything different to the rest of the mainstream media from DW to ABC News. This cartel has accused opponents of western foreign policy of "sustained disinformation" but if you read their argumentation carefully, you can throw every sentence into one of the following boxes: argument from ignorance, argument from incredulity, begging the question, appeal to authority, and the biggest one of all, argument by assertion. Believe you me, I know the sources from all sides as I follow world affairs from all angles. No mainstream source has produced evidence beyond reasonable doubt that that the Helmets are not affiliated to Al-Qaeda. Even the so-called "independent fact-checkers" such as SNOPES can at most offer the pitiful "we find no evidence of the Russian & Syrian claim" which is not the same as "we find evidence that they are spreading falsehoods". And while absence of evidence can never be the same as evidence of absence, I can safely say that among the public, SNOPES' reputation lies in ruins over this and other similar "findings". Anyhow, I am not denigrating the Guardian as a source, but I am saying that many other sources report the opposing narrative and they ALSO make representations that the western mainstream media is guilty of a disinformation drive. Those sources are too numerous for WP:FRINGE and so to choose one's favoured variation and give it WP:WEIGHT violates the rules of WP:PARITY. But just to wrap up, you see I cited the fallacies and you might be thinking "why did he say begging the question?" and the answer is because: the western governments and their obeisant echo chambers in the mainstream media (eg. The Guardian) use the White Helmets as a source of information. Therefore if someone is making claims about them, rightly or wrongly, you don't defend their rectitude by citing the very same sources who three pages behind the article you read adduced this organisation to make its points. For example, take the BBC: " Nine people, including three children, died when warplanes bombed the town of Talmenes, the White Helmets reported. " ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50821277 ). By this logic, the only way to decree the Helmets as terrorists is to find a passage in the "reliable sources" which says, "the White Helmets are affiliated to the Jihadist opposition in Syria, the Helmets themselves report" which is an absurdity. So you see, citing sources sympathetic to the Helmets is circular reasoning. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Coldtrack: Thank you for coming back. Getting to 'the truth' is, I am sure, a very difficult and complex task. And, yes, it does depend on what sources one assimilates. One person's truth is another person's injustice. You may have seen it written in the essays on Wikipedia that this encyclopaedia doesn't claim to portray'the truth' -it portrays what reliable sources have written about the subject - sometimes by both sides of a subject. There it is expected to present both sets of so-called 'truths' as reliably reported. I can do no more here except to say that very few of us here are 'experts' or political analysts, and that we try our best to present the available evidence as citations for statements. Just as there is currently no evidence to suggest that I now stopped beating my wife, there is equally no evidence to suggest that I ever have beaten her at all. It would be unfair to write about my wife-beating habits if no sources had reliably published evidence that I was being investigated by the police for wife beating, or had been found guilty of those crimes. I do to some extent understand the point you are making, but sympathies change when facts emerge. Look at the case of the heavily lauded Harvey Weinstein, or the serial abuser Jimmy Saville who our own BBC appeared to be protecting by not broadcasting investigative journalism that exposed him shortly before his death. It's not the same types of examples, but Wikipedia can only collate what is already available - it cannot be used to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Kind regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Very comforting to know you don't beat your wife, just as I have never beaten my wife nor children either (although Igor, the oldest, is 19 and 6 foot 5, 196cm!!). I know what you're saying. You're describing a vacuous truth. Our situation at White Helmets is that there are two rival narratives, diametrically opposed, and both widely reported. This is why it is wrong to present one as factual and the other as false. I didn't seek to reverse the article but to rewrite any paragraph giving undue weight to the authors' favoured account. Block 1 says that Block 2 spreads disinformation and that the organisation is benign. Block 2 says Block 1 spreads disinformation and that the organisation is dishonourable. Proponents of the former say that Block 2 consists of "unreliable sources", while proponents of the other assert that Block 2's sources are reliable. If it were as simple as citing blogs and forum discussions then one may have a point. But when the so-called "unreliable" sources are reports from media across a variety of countries to which you could add independent writers and scholars then the "unreliable source" argument falls apart at every turn. You probably haven't noticed that there is an anomaly here: to claim that a source is "unreliable" and that its authors spread "disinformation" are two mutually exclusive assertions. Many "reliable sources" helped to peddle the myth that Saddam Hussein was developing weapons of mass destruction, a claim that was being championed in the build-up to, during, and months after the Iraq War. At the same time, "unreliable sources" were sceptical of the tropes being parroted. If you asseverate that so-and-so is spreading "disinformation" then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate this claim. To claim that so-and-so reports the opposite of such-and-such, the first is "reliable" and the second is "unreliable" and therefore the second amounts to disinformation is WP:SYNTH in fine feather. Do you see my point? --Coldtrack (talk) 21:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Coldtrack: Thank you for coming back. Getting to 'the truth' is, I am sure, a very difficult and complex task. And, yes, it does depend on what sources one assimilates. One person's truth is another person's injustice. You may have seen it written in the essays on Wikipedia that this encyclopaedia doesn't claim to portray'the truth' -it portrays what reliable sources have written about the subject - sometimes by both sides of a subject. There it is expected to present both sets of so-called 'truths' as reliably reported. I can do no more here except to say that very few of us here are 'experts' or political analysts, and that we try our best to present the available evidence as citations for statements. Just as there is currently no evidence to suggest that I now stopped beating my wife, there is equally no evidence to suggest that I ever have beaten her at all. It would be unfair to write about my wife-beating habits if no sources had reliably published evidence that I was being investigated by the police for wife beating, or had been found guilty of those crimes. I do to some extent understand the point you are making, but sympathies change when facts emerge. Look at the case of the heavily lauded Harvey Weinstein, or the serial abuser Jimmy Saville who our own BBC appeared to be protecting by not broadcasting investigative journalism that exposed him shortly before his death. It's not the same types of examples, but Wikipedia can only collate what is already available - it cannot be used to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Kind regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- I appreciate your effort in looking into the issue and time in commenting. So you know, "disinformation" is an assertion which carries the burden of proof. To this end, dissenting voices such as what you read in the Guardian do not cut the mustard as they have not demonstrated their accusation that "the other side is lying". The issue is that rival narratives exist and sadly, they are always divided down the usual partisan lines. Although I cannot be sure which Guardian piece you refer to, I know that the Guardian does not report anything different to the rest of the mainstream media from DW to ABC News. This cartel has accused opponents of western foreign policy of "sustained disinformation" but if you read their argumentation carefully, you can throw every sentence into one of the following boxes: argument from ignorance, argument from incredulity, begging the question, appeal to authority, and the biggest one of all, argument by assertion. Believe you me, I know the sources from all sides as I follow world affairs from all angles. No mainstream source has produced evidence beyond reasonable doubt that that the Helmets are not affiliated to Al-Qaeda. Even the so-called "independent fact-checkers" such as SNOPES can at most offer the pitiful "we find no evidence of the Russian & Syrian claim" which is not the same as "we find evidence that they are spreading falsehoods". And while absence of evidence can never be the same as evidence of absence, I can safely say that among the public, SNOPES' reputation lies in ruins over this and other similar "findings". Anyhow, I am not denigrating the Guardian as a source, but I am saying that many other sources report the opposing narrative and they ALSO make representations that the western mainstream media is guilty of a disinformation drive. Those sources are too numerous for WP:FRINGE and so to choose one's favoured variation and give it WP:WEIGHT violates the rules of WP:PARITY. But just to wrap up, you see I cited the fallacies and you might be thinking "why did he say begging the question?" and the answer is because: the western governments and their obeisant echo chambers in the mainstream media (eg. The Guardian) use the White Helmets as a source of information. Therefore if someone is making claims about them, rightly or wrongly, you don't defend their rectitude by citing the very same sources who three pages behind the article you read adduced this organisation to make its points. For example, take the BBC: " Nine people, including three children, died when warplanes bombed the town of Talmenes, the White Helmets reported. " ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-50821277 ). By this logic, the only way to decree the Helmets as terrorists is to find a passage in the "reliable sources" which says, "the White Helmets are affiliated to the Jihadist opposition in Syria, the Helmets themselves report" which is an absurdity. So you see, citing sources sympathetic to the Helmets is circular reasoning. --Coldtrack (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, so I spent an hour and a half looking into this. Sorry i couldn't do more. It seems the main disagreement is that you like the word 'criticism' whilst others want to use the phrase 'sustained disinformation', and that you've been edit warring with others a bit over that - maybe for a couple of years - but also noting that there has been prior discussion on the Talk Page, plus a recent post from you, reiterating your concerns. Unfortunately, unlike the diff of mine that you cited to the page on [[Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting]], here I see a statement in the lead which does summarises what reliable mainstream media like The Guardian have reported, and which are expnded in the remainder of the article. Having looked at those sources, I tend to side with the view which is opposite to the one that you take - sorry. In fact, I have added a quotation from the The Guardian which I feel justifies the use of both 'sustained' and of 'disinformation', and the assertion that Russian TV has played its part in that campaign. Whilst I haven't added in references in my reply here, I would suggest that you consider always including both diffs and citations when you want to put forward an argument to support your view - it makes the job a lot easier if one can hear what the editor is saying, and then immediately see the source(s) they are basing their editing position upon. Just a suggestion to facilitate collaboration. Sorry I can't be more supportive of your perspective, but I must admit to very little experience in this field and have simply followed the sources. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 23:08, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
- By all means this is your talk page! :)))) No rush. I don't expect to be online this next 10 or so days anyhow. Thanks for the acknowledgement! Warmest regards. --Coldtrack (talk) 22:00, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
2A00:23C5:6289:C000:0:0:0:0/64
Range is back at 2A00:23C5:6289:C000:8C4B:65AE:5AF3:D4AB (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) with personal attacks to the same edits. Nate • (chatter) 00:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. I was slow to respond, but am pleased to see the user have been rangeblocked. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam
Dear Sir, thank you for your guidance and help in editing the page, I tried my level best to follow your guidance. I need your help in creating wekimedia categories and sub categories. Already You have created Category: Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam in wikimedia commons. How to create sub categories like Butterflies of Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam, Cacti and Succulents, Birds, aquatic plants, orchids, medicinal plants like that sir. Sorry I am troubling you a lot in asking such things..I am unable to follow clearly... Sir Please help me sir if time permits, regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmantha (talk • contribs) 02:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Bmantha: I don't think you should create more than three or four further sub-categories. Any more would be quite unnecessary. (I could envisage Insects of..., Plants of..., Birds of...) If you'd care to give me a full list, I'll try and sort them out for you. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Dear sir In my opinion the following categories looks good in wikimedia under Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam; Butterflies, Birds, Cacti & Succulents, Aquatic plants, Orchids, Plants general, medicinal plants, Education and Awareness activities etc. Otherwise you help me to how to go for subcategories please One more advise I seek; regarding The page 'Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam already reviseed by I would like to insert one gallery with just 12 pictures representing the most important plants and flowers or butterflies of different zones, Just 10 or 12 please permit or else give me your suggestion please. regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmantha (talk • contribs) 22:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the response
. Pasdecomplot (talk) 11:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
- you're welcome. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:22, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi Nick!
Hello Nick. This is Jumpycamel. I am honored to get to meet you! Really, I am new to Wikipedia and my account is about 2 days old. From now on I am using you, out of all Wikipedia members, for advice.
Happy Wiki-ing! Jumpycamel
(P. S. Is there any Wikipedia page that hasn’t been made yet that I can make?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jumpycamel (talk • contribs) 01:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hey, Jumpycamel, thanks for stopping by. I can't promise to respond quickly to questions - so actually you are better off asking at the Teahouse if you want speedy answers.
- You asked:
"Is there any Wikipedia page that hasn’t been made yet that I can make?"
, and the answer is 'yes' there are thousands! But, honestly, please don't come to Wikipedia with the idea of creating a new page, as it would be like me walking into a TV studio with no understanding of how programmes are made asking if I can create a new show for kids! Creating a new article, and following all our guidelines as ytou do it, is one of the hardest tasks any editor can perform here. So, take your time; edit slowly and gradually. In due course, you'll gravitate towards making bigger and better edits, and eventually find something that does meet our notabilty criteria. You might even go in search of pages where suggestions few new articles are collected together, like this one for notable women. - I tell you what: I'll keep an eye on your editing contributions and drop by if I think I can make further suggestions. Do have a go at The Wikipedia Adventure. It's not only fun to do, it shows other editors that you're really interested to learn. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Here’s to Nick - a Cupcake!
|
Thank you, Nick, for your service to Wikipedia. Therefore, I think you deserve a cupcake - or three hundred! Jumpycamel (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC) |
Dear Sir, Thank you very much for editing this article, sparing more time and giving suggestions. In fact I am new to this, and this is my first article. As you guessed, your are right sir. I am the founder member of Dolphin Nature Conservation Society and Biodiversity Park which started in the year 2001 with a aim to inculcate the knowledge of nature conservation and environmental protection in the young minds. The main motto of the society is nature conservation,environmental protection, education and awareness. Ours is a student teacher based voluntary organization (NGO). I am a retired Professor from Andhra University affiliated college, A doctorate degree holder from Marine Biology. Zoologist and teacher by profession and a botanist by passion and above all a naturalist and nature lover. The crown project of ours is development and maintenance of this Biodiversity Park in Visakhapatnam. In a Govt. Hospital land in 3 acres we started this in 2002 and maintained with our own funds (my own funds and meagre donations from students) upto 2013. Now with the help of government agencies and with my own funds and through meager donations from student volunteers we have been maintaining it. In fact it is a living laboratory for students of all walks of life. In fact ours is the only biodiversity park in the entire state of Andhra Pradesh. Thank you very much for all your suggestions. I am much more thankful to you for the creation of Biodiversity park, visakhapatnam in Wikimedia. I am entirely new to this terminology and language of wikipedia but slowly learning . I earnestly request you to edit this article and give suggestions and advise...and make it in more presentation and pleasant form..for the wiki readers. Already you helped me a lot. Pl. extend some more help by sparing your highly valuable time in making this article a perfect page for all readers. Thank you..Thank you very much.. regards.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmantha (talk • contribs) 00:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Bmantha: It was a pleasure to help you, sir! I realise you might not have been happy to see much of your work removed, but I am very glad you appreciated it. Please would you just do one important thing to meet Wikipedia's requirements? I need to ask you to create your userpage and to add a small 'Conflict of Interest' declaration on it. (See WP:COI for more details. The code you need to add is as follows:
{{UserboxCOI|1=Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam}}and on your userpage it should appear like this:
 | This user has publicly declared that he has a conflict of interest regarding the Wikipedia article Biodiversity Park, Visakhapatnam. |
- What you actually say about yourself is very much your choice, but I personally tend to trust an editor's motives more if I see that they have spent a few moments explaining their background and why they are here to edit Wikipedia. What you have said above looks perfect to me; namely
"I am a retired Professor from Andhra University affiliated college, A doctorate degree holder from Marine Biology. Zoologist and teacher by profession and a botanist by passion and above all a naturalist and nature lover."
- What you actually say about yourself is very much your choice, but I personally tend to trust an editor's motives more if I see that they have spent a few moments explaining their background and why they are here to edit Wikipedia. What you have said above looks perfect to me; namely
- If I may make a personal observation: If I were in your shoes, I would also be extraordinarily proud of my achievements in setting up the Biodiversity Park. From the photographs I can see that it is full or beauty and has enormous impact on the people you bring there. For such a small area, you have not only created a great resource, but also managed to generate a lot of media interest, too. You did a brilliant job. I am, if I am honest, quite jealous! My own project (The Sanctuary (Derby)) is 12 ha in size, but has nothing of the beauty of yours. In fact, it was established to protect natural wildlife and especially ground-nesting bird habitat that had developed on top of a disused and clay-capped landfill rubbish dump on the edge of our city. In winter it looks bleak and windswept, but in spring it attracts migrant birds. We even built a massive sand-filled structure for nesting sand martins, which has been very successful. Some years ago we had to fight to protect it from destruction by its owners (our City Council) who were the same body who had formally and legally designated it as a Local Nature Reserve. They wanted to build a bicycle racing track on it, and so our local conservation organisations had to start legal action in one of our countries highest courts before they finally backed down. I hope you never face the same problems! Best wishes, Nick Moyes (talk) 10:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Talk_page_messages_skewed_to_the_right . Interstellarity (talk) 14:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Interstellarity: Why on earth wake up the whole world and draw them to my userpage, when a few seconds should have let you see that two simple colons indenting a demo COI template a few posts above this was the cause. Next time, why not just drop by and say "Did you know...?". I hadn't spotted it, but it's a funny way to alert me to such a minor issue which I've now fixed! Nick Moyes (talk) 14:38, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- I apologize for letting the whole world know. I'm glad the issue got fixed. Did I do something wrong? Interstellarity (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, Interstellarity. 'Doing something wrong' isn't the phrase I would choose. I'm certainly not annoyed or anything, so don't worry. Nor am I hiding anything I didn't want folk to see here!. It's just that it seemed really, really weird to post on two forums that my talk page was a tiny bit misaligned, as if it were a global issue that needed fixing across Wikipedia, when all you needed to have done was dropped by, and mentioned the layout issue in a post here. I might have got around to fixing it in a week or two...it really wasn't an issue that needed 'eyes on' from WP:VPT, that's all. (I also had to drop what I was doing, scramble over to VPT to see what had cracked off, then pop back here, spend two minutes working out why my talk page was indented, and then fix it. Meanwhile QEDK had very kindly popped over to take a look, and had also sussed out the issue.) So, no, you've done nothing wrong - except perhaps looked a tad daft in making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill. But, either way, thanks for raising it, as I'd not appreciated that an indented COI template continued to indent the rest of the page. That might have been the bigger technical issue that could have been raised, but you didn't appear to have spotted what the cause of the indenting actually was. No worries; all is calm. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm the kind of person that likes to point out errors in Wikipedia. I'm glad you're OK because I am as well. Interstellarity (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah - no problem. Just try to work out the best way of doing that, please. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- I'm the kind of person that likes to point out errors in Wikipedia. I'm glad you're OK because I am as well. Interstellarity (talk) 00:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, Interstellarity. 'Doing something wrong' isn't the phrase I would choose. I'm certainly not annoyed or anything, so don't worry. Nor am I hiding anything I didn't want folk to see here!. It's just that it seemed really, really weird to post on two forums that my talk page was a tiny bit misaligned, as if it were a global issue that needed fixing across Wikipedia, when all you needed to have done was dropped by, and mentioned the layout issue in a post here. I might have got around to fixing it in a week or two...it really wasn't an issue that needed 'eyes on' from WP:VPT, that's all. (I also had to drop what I was doing, scramble over to VPT to see what had cracked off, then pop back here, spend two minutes working out why my talk page was indented, and then fix it. Meanwhile QEDK had very kindly popped over to take a look, and had also sussed out the issue.) So, no, you've done nothing wrong - except perhaps looked a tad daft in making a mountain out of a non-existent molehill. But, either way, thanks for raising it, as I'd not appreciated that an indented COI template continued to indent the rest of the page. That might have been the bigger technical issue that could have been raised, but you didn't appear to have spotted what the cause of the indenting actually was. No worries; all is calm. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- I apologize for letting the whole world know. I'm glad the issue got fixed. Did I do something wrong? Interstellarity (talk) 21:42, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please tell other users about these changes. Not all changes will affect you. Translations are available.
Recent changes
- Some articles have tables that can be sorted in different ways. For example a list of countries can be sorted alphabetically but you can click on the size column to sort them by size. If you clicked on the column a second time it would sort the countries from the bottom to the top instead. A third click will now take you back to the original sorting. [18]
- Self-closed tags now work as in the HTML5 specifications. This means you should stop using some of them.
<b/>is an example of a self-closed tag that won't work.area, base, br, col, embed, hr, img, input, keygen, link, meta, param, source, track, wbrcan be self-closed. Pages with tags that should not be self-closed have been listed in a tracking category since 2016. They will be listed in Special:LintErrors/self-closed-tag. This doesn't affect<references />or<ref />. [19] - There is a banner called
WikidataPageBanner. It is for example used by the Wikivoyages, Wikimedia Russia and the Catalan, Basque, Galician and Turkish Wikipedias. It will now been seen by mobile visitors too. Before this it was only seen on desktop. The wikis should update instructions onMediaWiki:Sitenoticeso that editors know to test and style for mobile too. [20][21]
Changes later this week
- You can now edit MassMessage descriptions through the API. This is useful for tools and gadgets. [22]
- The new version of MediaWiki will be on test wikis and MediaWiki.org from 9 June. It will be on non-Wikipedia wikis and some Wikipedias from 10 June. It will be on all wikis from 11 June (calendar).
Future changes
- A temporary fix helped wikis make their main pages more mobile friendly. This was in 2012. It has not been recommended since 2017. It will not work after 13 July. Wikis should use TemplateStyles instead. 118 wikis need to fix this. You can read more and see if your wiki is affected. [23]
Tech news prepared by Tech News writers and posted by bot • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.
21:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A nice ol’ brownie to Nick!
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Or do you want donuts? 🍩 Ha ha! Jumpycamel (talk) 03:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC) |
CIC Hut
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your lovely message about my Jane Inglis Clark article! I am so glad to hear that my first article has gone down well. Jane Inglis Clark was a really interesting person to research and put together into a biography as part of the Edinburgh Women in Red project.
It would be great if you could do a page on the CIC Hut. For now I will focus my attention on Women in Red, in particular adding articles on the missing female climbers/travellers/mountaineers. If you have any tips or suggestions on that topic please send them my way! Best wishes, --12banana21 (talk) 08:53, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- OK, 12banana21. I think we all like to get positive feedback, and it is really fantastic to see you get off to such a great start here. I certainly didn't want to undermine your plans by creating a page on something you wanted to work on. (That happened to me with the Goûter Hut in the Alps after I'd been slowly working on a draft for over a year.)
- As for tips or suggestions, I could mention that leaving on request for help on talk pages of other WikiProjects might elicit contributions from others (though it's rare!). I help to run WikiProject Mountains of the Alps where we have a 'requested articles section, including names of people. (I confess, to my shame, that so far it's an all-male list. Feel free to add any female alpinists to it, or link back to the relevant Women in Red section)). Then there's also WikiProject Climbing.
- I recently purchased a copy of the RGS/Alpine Club publication 'Mountaineers' in the hope of getting some more information, but sadly it, too, is very male-focussed. What I would eventually like to do is find a way to encourage various national societies to consider mobilising some of their archives or images to Wikimedia Commons for use on Wikipedia. But this is a long haul ambition, I fear. Just shout if you ever need help. Nick Moyes (talk) 13:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Shadowblade
Blast from the recent past: new account User:Shadowblade08.2 looks a lot like User:Shadowblade08.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 23:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- @ThatMontrealIP: Oh dear. Well, if that were the case, that would be WP:BLOCKEVASION, resulting in a permanent block on both accounts unless the new account were to cease editing immediately and declare the connection. (It's certainly an amazing coincidence otherwise.) I'll leave it for now as it's late here, but we can easily get a WP:CHECKUSER to take a look if they continue editing and don't answer your question. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Confirmed, see the talk page. I'm sympathetic to younger editors but not potential further disruption and block evasion.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:14, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Bug
@Nick Moyes:, when I search "WP:TH" or Wikipedia:Teahouse, in the wikipedia search bar nothing shows up. I just go to my sandbox/talk page/typed "WP:TH, Instead. I think this is a bug. Always, -Hamuyi (talk) 11:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Hamuyi: It's working fine. WP:TH doesn't show because there are innumerable autofill options that it could also be, so you don't always see them in the small box. Wikipedia:Teahouse autofills fine for me; so maybe you have a browser issue. I use Chrome. Just type the shortcut and press return and you're sorted.
- By the way, although you are entitled to blank your talk page after people have posted there, you might like to know that it tends to draw extra attention and suspicion on your editing - whether deserved or not. My friendly advice is not to keep blanking other people's comments there, but to leave all posts there for quite some time, maybe only blank or ARCHIVE after a couple of months at least. In the spirit of openness, you will find people look more kindly on you if you allow all positive and negative feedback to be easily visible. You will note that I have still had to reformat your reply to my request to you, asking you not to leave separate lines between text and signatures, yet your reply failed to do just that. You do not need to insert line breaks either - the text will autowrap itself onto the page. Please try to pay a little more attention to what experienced editors are trying to help you with. Thus far, of your 324 edits here, only two have been two articles, and both were reverted as not being constructive. Do remember that this is our primary purpose, and try to focus on learning how to contribute successfully, and less on commenting on other people's talk pages and more on Contributing to Wikipedia. Always. Nick Moyes (talk) 12:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, I do. I am still learning.
Everyone is. I am going to go to the task center and try to help.
Always -Hamuyi (talk)
- @Hamuyi: OK - stick to the simplest tasks there. NOTE: You're still inserting 'Returns' at the end of sentences which are not required. They don't render on the page, but are clearly visible when you edit the source code. Try to remember that this isn't needed nor, indeed, wanted. Reply to a comment by indenting, using one additional colon to force the indent rightwards.
- Like this
- And like this
- See? Nick Moyes (talk) 13:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks Always, --Hamuyi (talk) 13:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- See? Nick Moyes (talk) 13:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
- And like this
- Like this