Talk:The Black Dahlia Murder (band)

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INSTEAD OF GENRE DEBATING LIKE RETARDS

Death metal is incredibly fitting. leave it at that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrathful God (talk • contribs) 00:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Why don't we just say "TBDM is an Extreme Metal band" and then add a genre section to the article?

96.234.65.135 (talk) 09:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

There's a "style" section which would be the same use as a genre section. Well saying they are an extreme metal band would mean they combine black, death, thrash and sometimes doom metal and they surely don't. A band that would suit that tag well is Cradle of Filth. Leaving it as melodic death metal / metalcore is easier. FireCrystal (talk) 22:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. Extreme Metal can be ANY of those genres. And they certainly combine (even if very small) elements of Death, Black, and Thrash.

96.234.65.135 (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

Of course extreme metal can be any of those genres. I really meant to say that extreme metal is an umbrella term for generalizing those genres such as on a band page. Cradle of Filth is hard to define so extreme metal was the best choice. Saying a band is heavy metal when they have subgenres of progressive, thrash, speed, and power metal would be used to generalize their multitude of genres. Though the band's elements of black and thrash is up for debate if any reviewer/etc at all said they had some of those elements. Metalcore is not always associated with extreme metal, while melodic death is but it would still be better to leave it as is. You might get even more people screwing around with it if we used extreme metal so just revert it on spot. Besides a consensus/agreement was reached. FireCrystal (talk) 23:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I understand a consensus was reached, and I (as well as hundreds of other people) completely, 100% disagree with the verdict. TBDM is not a metalcore band. They sound like a Gothenburg Melodeath band. Their DEMOS were metalcore. So if anything the opening sentence should not have metalcore in it, and them we put "Metalcore (earlier works)" in the infobox. The only reason we're at such a debate is because of danteferno. He never adds anything to an artice. HE ALWAYS just fucks up a perfectly fine article. (This isn't the first time he went trigger-happy with metalcore on an article.) Oh and before you guys start whining "NO PERSONAL ATTACKS", I'm not making a personal attack. I'm just stating a fact.

96.234.65.135 (talk) 06:42, 31 January 2009 (UTC) Jack Bauar

I have removed "metalcore" and "melodic death metal" from the genres section for the time being. This is not due to any personal feelings I have on the band or their music: I've actually never much listened to them. I removed them because they were given with non reliable sources: one was metal blade, and a band's own label is not a reliable source on their genre; the other was an interview with "Way Too Loud". Whether such a source could be considered reliable at all is debatable, and in this case it certainly can't for "metalcore", because only the band themselves use that term, and even then jokingly. If anyone wants to add more genres, do it with good sources please. I realise there has been significant debate on the genre already; however, I can't bring myself to trawl through so many trolls/flames/personal attacks to find the occasional solid message. If sources were turned up in the discussion here, all you have to do is put them onto the page itself. Prophaniti (talk) 23:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

THEY'RE NOT METALCORE!!!

And I'm removing the metalcore genre since the source is invalid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.252.190 (talk) 19:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The genre debate is an old topic and consensus has already been reached, so your disagreement is irrelevant. In addition, removing referenced sources is blanking, a form of WP:VANDALISM. --Danteferno (talk) 16:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

With all due respect, consensus can change. We don't have to model ourselves off the IPCC soapbox.--WaltCip (talk) 18:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

True, consensus can change, but there's been no new information provided to justify a change. Unfortunately, it's still anon/auto-confirmed accounts blanking citations and trying to push their POV, and trying to use the same, "OMG, if the band says they R not metalcore, they R NoT metalcore!" argument, which hasn't held any water from day one. Bottom line: there's no dispute here, just POV pushing/blanking/vandalism, and that's one of the reasons the page was protected for a second time. --Danteferno (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think the members of a band would know what they play. And anyway, how much of Black Dahlia Murder's music have you heard? yes (talk) 00:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't it removed yet? It's still on their. And for any one that doesn't think they're Melodic Death metal just go watch an interview on you tube with Trevor. He clearly states that they are MELODIC DEATH METAL. He evan mentioned how it would piss him off when people would call them metalcore<--9/15/2009-->

Instead of arguing about what the band said and did not say, listen to their music! How can you find a single metalcore influence in it? That's the reason why they're not metalcore.

Genre box

(2FireCrystal) I am confused as to why you're confused? Is it because of the long-running genre disagreement? or is it that you don't feel a genre box in a band's article who plays within that genre is appropriate? But then, why would you think that?  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  21:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The genre debate is irrelevant here so lets look at it with this point of view: ever seen a featured band article with one? FireCrystal (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

A featured band article with a genre box? Well, no. Guess we never will. Of course a good point in your favor might be that a band like this one covers more than one specific genre, so perhaps you're right.  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  05:09, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, genre boxes shouldn't be anywhere else but on an article about a music genre. FireCrystal (talk) 05:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

apparent genre debate?

so loads of talk about the concensus that was reached in some debate, alot of good it is if noone can see the debate to know why this was agreed. and in my opinion the sources for metalcore is a load of shite.The-deejjj (talk) 14:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC) surfing around i can find only good sources for death metal and deathcore, revolver and metal hammer, but nothing reliable for metalcoreThe-deejjj (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Genre debate

so...like The-deej said, apparently there was a consensus on the genre debate? To add my opinion, I cannot see in any way how TBDM can be called a metalcore band. I have listened to basically all their stuff and it seems apparent that they are death metal. Metalcore isn't as aggressive/intense (better wording?) and also includes clean vocals. Example of metalcore bands are All That Remains, Trivium, As I Lay Dying, early Avenged Sevenfold, Demon Hunter, The Devil Wears Prada, Killswitch Engage, Protest the Hero, etc. Death metal sounds like DevilDriver, At the Gates, Here Comes the Kraken, In Flames, Behemoth, Echovirus, early All That Remains etc. Now, which does TBDM sound more like? cheese (talk) 23:18, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

You didn't know there was an archives section in the talk page? [[1]]. One example from that crazy archive (where several trolls/derelicts of Wikipolicy didn't get their way) User talk:Kameejl provided excellent rationale for the metalcore labeling of TBDM:

• reliable sources state they are metalcore
• the band agrees they have hardcore influences
• band members play/have played in (other) death-/metalcore bands
• they will tour/have toured with death metal/metalcore hybrid bands (The Red Chord, Job for a Cowboy, Lynchmada and others). Again, what a band "sounds like" is POV. I could say Dimmu Borgir sound like gothic metal because they use symphonics - doesn't make it true. --Danteferno (talk) 00:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok...thanks for giving me the points but: first death metal is technically "hardcore" unless you mean hardcore punk. Second, the types of bands that they play in doesn't make that their other bands genre (for example Tim McIlrath of Rise Against was in a metalcore band. That doesn't make Rise Against's genre metalcore). Third, the bands that they tour with doesn't define their genre (e.g. All That Remains once toured with Divine Heresy, a melodic death metal band, while touring in support of their album The Fall of Ideals). cheese (talk) 03:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Hardcore influences" obviously meant hardcore punk influences. TBDM's frontman admitted to such influences in an interview, and that the way they carry themselves is "more punk". And yes, bands/genres a group cites as influences and tours with says much about what genre(s) a group belongs to. (And btw, one of Divine Heresy's genres is cited as deathcore, not just melodic death metal. In fact, more sources on the page point to deathcore.) Even Metal Blade (TBDM's own record label) promoted TBDM as "hardcore-influenced death metal". Such a descriptor is not going to be used on any "solid" death metal band. Now change back to "heavy metal/metalcore" or just "American band" on the opening paragraph, this dispute doesn't need 3P comment or admin intervention, it's just you pushing POV. --Danteferno (talk) 04:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

So like i said...you never see articles with multiple genres at the beginning, and even if you did, all would be included not just one. All are in the infobox. It is pointless to add them especially when heavy metal relates to the others. Just leave it. cheese (talk) 23:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"Heavy metal" and "metalcore" are related, but wholly separate. One's a genre, and one's a combination genre. There are two separate articles. It looks like admin intervention will be at hand, it's unfortunate POV pushing is your rationale of debate. --Danteferno (talk) 17:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

How is this not debating??? And yes, I know there are two separate articles. But you don't see other people saying "TBDM IS A HEAVY METAL/MELODIC DEATH METAL/DEATHCORE/METALCORE BAND." That is because it's really not needed. It is all in the infobox, not the beginning of the article. And the citation I removed went to an error on the site when I clicked on it. Also, just to let you know, you are the only one saying that they are metalcore... cheese (talk) 23:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

"Also, just to let you know, you are the only one saying that they are metalcore..." The edit history and talk page history doesn't corroborate with that claim. --Danteferno (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Adding on...examples of other articles:Trivium - doesn't say thrash metal/metalcore, In Flames - doesn't say melodic death metal/alternative metal (which is present in their later albums), Becoming the Archetype - doesn't say death metal/metalcore/progressive metal, The Ascendicate - doesn't say Metalcore/alternative metal, Slipknot - doesn't say nu metal/alternative metal, etc. An example outside of metal is Linkin Park - doesn't say nu metal/alternative rock. I don't see why TBDM's article would be any different and have two genres at the beginning when a list of their genres is in the infobox, like i've been saying. cheese (talk) 00:50, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

K, the source "http://www.musicmight.com/artist/united+states/michigan/detroit/the+black+dahlia+murder" leads to an error page, if it is to stay up, surealy a nw RELIABLE source must be found.The-deejjj (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn´t it be true to say that the genres metalcore and deathcore are very undefined and probably just words that have come around as the genre death metal has evolved. The younger crowd of today needed a label of their own to a genra that traditionally had been accisiated with things the new bands no longer stands for. except for more advanced recordings and new themes in the lyrics I´s say we´re still talking death metal. I think the article should state that they are adeath metal band, and maybe mention something about them being among this newer generation of bands that are being called deathcore and metalcore.83.255.160.28 (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This is disgraceful

• cough* BDM is not metalcore

That aside, let me focus on the source that apparently justifies calling this band metalcore. To be honest, the reference does not mention anything at all about the band. How it is being used as a good source is beyond me. I would not believe it at all if somebody were to say that they really looked hard to find a good reference to justify calling them this incorrect genre.

Furthermore, the fact that the #2 and #4 references are the EXACT SAME THING just shows to me that there really was no thought put into this whole genre thing.

Requested move 2009

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

---

The Black Dahlia Murder → The Black Dahlia Murder (band) — The Black Dahlia murder was the brutal murder of Elizabeth Short. The band should really be moved for specification. The Black Dahlia murder has been the result for several film and book adaptations, along with several references to the murder. (see here). --Krazycev 13 ^{other crap} 21:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Also if there is a consensus to rename the redirect Black Dahlia Murder should be retargted as well.--76.71.213.208 (talk) 22:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose (and not because WP:ILIKEIT, I actually didn't like their latest album. What are the chances that somebody would search "The Black Dahlia Murder" and want to go to the Elizabeth Short case? Black Dahlia already redirects there. And in any case The Black Dahlia Murder would not be grammatically correct as a redirect to the murder case, as "murder" wouldn't be capitalized. If anything The Black Dahlia murder and Black Dahlia murder should (be created and) redirect to the Elizabeth Short case. I'm listing something on that talkpage so that watchers of the Black Dahlia murder article can voice their opinion as well. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 23:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
• Support - There should be two disambiguation pages. One with the title The Black Dahlia that incorporates Black Dahlia, Black Dahlia murder and Elizabeth Short, which redirect to Black Dahlia and point to the article about the murder and Elizabeth Short and offers "For the band, see The Black Dahlia Murder (band)". The other disambiguation page with the title The Black Dahlia Murder that includes The Black Dahlia Murder (band) and The Black Dahlia Murder and offers "For the article about the murder and Elizabeth Short, see Black Dahlia." Basically, it's not nearly as germane to grammar as it is to clarifying which is which. You can't be sure that the passing reader will realize that capitalization matters. Offering two disambiguation pages that cover the scope of titles that pertain to each entity. This may also minimize the number of people who pop over to the article about Elizabeth Short and think it necessary to add the band to that page. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:28, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
• Support popular name of the murder should redirect to a murder article, or the article where the information is contained. Optionally, redirect to a dab page, since there's also a movie. 65.94.252.195 (talk) 03:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

They are nothing but melodic death metal!

The don't play metalcore or deathcore. They're straight melo-death. They have not so much melody or clean vocals, so that makes them not metalcore. Deathcore is almost like death metal, it has way more down-tuned guitars with growls. That makes TBDM not even deathcore. They're simply a heavy band with some melody once in a while and mostly pitch up vocals, the definition of melodic death metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.217.193 (talk) 16:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• One full year of consensus says that you're incorrect.--WaltCip (talk) 15:39, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Three reliable sources stating the oposite says you're incorrect. • GunMetal Angel 02:56, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

---Just because a source says this band is metalcore or deathcore doesn't mean it's correct. Anyone that know ANYTHING about death metal, metalcore, or deathcore knows this band is straight up melodic death metal. It is a fact. Just because Trevor says some metalcore bands are good and he likes the way the hardcore community is doesn't mean BDM are metalcore or deathcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XhawkingX (talk • contribs) 03:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

We know that, or at least anyone with half a brain does, it does not matter though, because wikipedia works through reliable and varifiable sourcing. Meaning that if a reliable and varifiable source says that they are "core" then they are as far as wikipedia is concerned. 173.59.227.146 (talk) 13:48, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the real fans almost unanimously agree that there is nothing -core about TBDM. There is not a single aspect of any of their music that has anything in common with hardcore or metalcore. No breakdowns, very little growled vocals, and the speed and tempo and melody are almost entirely characteristic of melodic death metal. I also don't see why the band's own genre definition of themselves as such doesn't count as a "verifiable"/"reliable" source. In my opinion, what the band says they play is THE most reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.250.129.168 (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but the problem with using themselves as a source, is that it's first party. Not a third party source, which under guidlines give priority, as it were, too third party sources. 108.15.17.159 (talk) 18:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

They have a similiar sound to the original Gothenburg bands (In Flames, At The Gates, etc.) Therefore, they must be a Gothenburg band, aka melodic death metal. Yeah, they're gonna sound metalcore to some, because some of the leading metalcore bands (such as As I Lay Dying) took influence from melodeath music. Case closed... Well, probably not, but atleast I gave some input, I guess... 209.106.46.161 (talk) 15:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Picture Change

Just because we're loud and better than everyone else doesn't mean we aren't included in a band. Where's Shannon, the drummer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.146.92.44 (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see a picture that has the entire band, and is free to use (modify, or for commercial use). [2] Has Shannon in it, yet doesn't have Trevor or Ryan. Next time they come near me, I'll try to get a picture of the entire band. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 15:17, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

TBDM Is not Deathcore

On Wednesday June 6th, 2011 , the Black Dahlia Murder posted at 2:03 Pm 'We Ain't "Deathcore"...' via Facebook. This settles the argument of the band being classified as "Deathcore" Not to say that a multitude of bands that are Deatchore haven't been on tour with the band. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.57.161.22 (talk) 07:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

No they didn't, and even if they did, it would hold no weight. If Cannibal Corpse said on Facebook that they were not death metal and were instead post-hardcore, would that constitute a genre change on their wikipedia page? TheWeakWilled (T * G) 14:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Why would you lie about a Facebook post? The band have even clearly stated they don't even care about what genre they're pigeonholed under anymore years ago and (as TheWeakWilled stated) it doesn't even matter what the band says in terms of if they are or aren't a particular genre :: If a white horse says it's black, it could deny it until the cows come home; it's still a white horse. If you want me to maintain a more relevant metaphor to the deathcore topic, then I can tell you that The Acacia Strain get labeled as deathcore all the time, and even their vocalist despises it. I've even talked to him about it in person. No one likes the word, it's the most controversial heavy metal genre in history. • GunMetal Angel 19:36, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Yet another debate over TBDM not being deathcore/metalcore.

If you look at the article for deatchore, the characteristic that differentiates the genre from death metal is breakdowns (as in the slow tempo kind). I have never heard that in a TBDM song. It stays at a single tempo.

Plus, as others have pointed out, the source isn't even valid. If consensus is based off of untrustworthy sources, then I cannot trust said consensus.

And if the main article labels them as metalcore and deathcore, how come it's not the same for any of the articles for their albums or EPs? Not to mention that they're not mentioned anywhere on the "List of deathcore artists" page. I have heard deathcore, and it sounds nothing like THBM.

Now sorry, if I've made anyone mad. I am relatively new to these parts of the site. It's just this oversight disturbs me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigakoops (talk • contribs) 04:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Max Levelle officially announced as new Bassist

It was announced by the band that Max Levelle is officially replacing Bart Williams. Please do not remove the edits for this. Link Xombie (talk) 21:37, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Here's the millionth thing posted about their genre

So sorry but The Black Dahlia Murder is neither metalcore nor deathcore. The ONLY reference that cites them as being these genres is a website called MusicMight http://www.musicmight.com/artist/united+states/michigan/detroit/the+black+dahlia+murded This source is unreliable (the band's name is even spelled incorrectly in the url) and uses no evidence to support The Black Dahlia Murder being either metalcore or deathcore. Metalcore is characterized by breakdowns, screamed (and sometimes almost yelled) vocals, and oftentimes clean singing. The Black Dahlia Murder exhibits none of these characteristics (Trevor Strnad employs the use of death growls that are exclusively used in DEATH METAL and high-pitched screeches that are commonly used in many melodic death metal acts.). In not one song by them that they've released they've any "breakdowns" that would classify them as a metalcore or deathcore band. Deathcore shares many characteristics of metalcore [i.e. breakdowns] but there is usually no clean singing. Deathcore is simply metalcore tuned down with less singing and more screaming. Again, Trevor Strnad does not scream like deathcore/metalcore vocalists do. The Black Dahlia Murder's songs are undeniably death metal. And the guitars are melodic too (metalcore and especially not deathcore are by NO MEANS melodic at all). TBDM IS MELODIC DEATH METAL. And one more thing, why is it that that they're listed as being metalcore and deathcore but on not one of their albums does it say such things? Hmm? I'm taking the liberty, as a denizen of Wikipedia, to change the genres until someone provides an adequate reason as to why they are metalcore or deathcore. (: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plungerman14 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above statement. There really is no point in listing them under any "-core" genres anymore. The information used to argue the listing is all either out of date or unreliable, from genre-warring editors (some of whom have since been warned for not allowing other editors to change genres), and inconsistent with the rest of the articles on Wikipedia relating to the styles of music. The purpose of genres itself is to better "describe" the style of music of a band, not to compliment or insult a band. "Melodic death metal" is by all metrics the most appropriate genre for this band, consistent with all reliable sources and general media consensus, the band itself, and their label. Xombie (talk)

Whether their name in the URL is spelled correctly or not is irrelevant: the bottom line is that that's a reliable source. Also if you looked at the talk archives, and the sources in the article, the lead singer of the band admits to a metalcore sound and image. There's really no need for debate; consensus was reached on this topic quite a while ago. --Danteferno (talk) 15:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Two more reliable sources were found which state that the band is either metalcore or plays metalcore. Even the group's label, Metal Blade Records, distributed 2005's "Miasma" as "Hardcore-influenced Death Metal". (This, of course, was mentioned quite a while ago). Wikipedia articles are not a forum for fan opinion, and the only thing that mitigates these sources are fan opinion. --Danteferno (talk) 16:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

As noted in the guidelines, consensus can change, as well as the fact that, as the other editor mentioned, Wikipedia is intended to be uniform. It's time for a new discussion. Metal Blade itself no longer lists TBDM as a "-core" band. Nor should sources simply be taken verbatim. I could write a book that says "San Francisco bluegrass band, Metallica", and that doesn't make it a fact. What are the actual arguments used to list them as a "-core" band? They are no longer promoted anywhere as a "-core" band, there are no sources explaining how their body of work fits under a "-core" genre, nor does their music aptly fit under any such genre going by the wikipedia pages respective of them. Listing them under such genres makes very little sense when considering all of these factors. Xombie (talk) 23:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Reading back over the past debates on this subject, there's an interview that essentially ends this debate:

"“When we started out around five years ago, we had a very different line up to what we have today. In fact, the only people from that line up that remain today are Strnad and I. Back then, our sound was very much like a mix of hardcore and metal. We recorded a demo tape (Consisting of four tracks) with that kind of sound, but that’s when it all ended. Everything since then has been a lot different sounding because we didn’t want to write shit like that any more. We wanted to play f------ metal. That’s actually the first theory behind why people believe we have a hardcore influence."

That's a fairly straightforward explanation of not only that they shouldn't be listed as being a "-core" band, but since their early demos have attempted not to be. It's also consistent with the authors cited listing a 2001 demo song and an early album when describing them as "metalcore". What this all amounts to is that their body of work and the band as a whole cannot appropriately be called "metalcore". This would explain why there is no verifiable explanation of how they would fit in such a genre. Xombie (talk) 23:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Likely the most accurate way to list the genres, in light of their early EP's, would be "Melodic death metal, metalcore (early)". Xombie (talk) 00:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

You really need to read up on Wikipedia policy, especially WP:POV, WP:RS. The fact to the matter is that 3 RELIABLE SOURCES state that the band plays metalcore: what the band or fans says has absolutely no relevance in what is included in a Wikipedia article. Why do you have such a hard time understanding that? --Danteferno (talk) 00:57, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

What the band says has relevance to explaining the matter. Please also see the rest of the explanation and address those points, so that we can reach a proper, and more recent, consensus on the matter. Especially the points on the validity of the sources, and consistency with other articles relating to both this band and the genres in question. Maybe you should take a step back and a deep breath, since you seem to take this so personally. Again, "Melodic death metal, metalcore (early)" would seem to be the most consistent with the context of both how the journalists, the label, the band, and virtually all sources, seem to view their music. It would also be consistent with the wikipedia articles on the genres itself. Do you care to address these points?

"Deathcore" is also in neither of those sources, so I'm going to go ahead and remove it. Xombie (talk) 02:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

"What the band says has relevance to explaining the matter" Not in defining their genre or removing others. Perhaps in the content in the article the genre controversy can be addressed, but if a band/fan disputes something based on their own opinion, that is not "tell all and end all" Wikipedia categorization. As had been noted countless times before, many musicians, artists, etc, reject labels on their music. Chuck Schuldiner never thought Death (band) as a "death metal" band but just a "metal band". Eventhough countless sources prove otherwise, does that mean we should remove "death metal" and "progressive metal" from the infobox and just put "metal"? I say nay. Leave "metalcore" in The Black Dahlia Murder infobox alone. --Danteferno (talk) 19:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying it needs to be removed. I'm just saying that it's more accurate, and would be consistent with the band, the promotion, and the press (including the journalists you've given as a source), if it specified that their earlier music is what makes them considered metalcore. It would also be consistent with the articles for the albums themselves. Xombie (talk) 22:29, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

"I'm not saying it needs to be removed." Except you did remove it. "and would be consistent with the band, the promotion, and the press" Wikipedia articles are meant to inform, not to advertise press, promotion and POV. "if it specified that their earlier music is what makes them considered metalcore." All the sources state that the band IS metalcore, not that it was their earlier music. To include "early" would be an unsourced statement, so leave that out, unless you can provide sources that substantiate. --Danteferno (talk) 22:28, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

See above quote and the article itself. The sources you gave say the band is metalcore, in relation to a named earlier work. The article and its assesment of the band's "metalcore" genre meets the guidelines for WP:Identifying reliable sources. I will be leaving it in unless you can come up with a better source to contradict it, or you can prove that it does not meet Wikipedia guidelines for sources. You're welcome to bring in an arbitrator on this, but I think they'll agree that this is a completely valid edit. Xombie (talk) 22:42, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

If you're referring to the MetalForge link, that's a blog. The fact, along with the lack of media notability of MetalForge, badly fails WP:RS. --Danteferno (talk) 23:03, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Before editing this article or discussing this issue any further, please read WP:RS. POV and fan site blogs are NOT cite-able sources of information.--Danteferno (talk) 23:09, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

If it were an opinion piece, it would wouldn't qualify as a valid source. However, as an interview with the band itself, it qualifies as a primary source, valid per WP:RS. As per your own advice to me, please do not remove sources, or you'll be referred to an administrator. Xombie (talk) 23:32, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, if you're steadfast in not agreeing to any compromise on this issue, I would welcome arbitration or administrator input. Xombie (talk) 23:36, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Unnecessary. I mentioned your "MetalForge" source on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, which is frequented by both regular editors (like you and me) and administrators. That should clarify whether or not it's a reliable source. Anyone can see that it not only fails WP:RS, but conveys nothing. You wanted to "prove" that the band only played metalcore in their early years, but all "TheMetalForge" amounts to is a fansite, and the non-notable author just muses in his blog with the band about how "TBM is not metalcore". If you want to state in the content of the article that the band disputes the "metalcore" tag, go right ahead. But that does not justify removing metalcore or claiming it was their "early" genre (which is apparently what you've been trying to do.) --Danteferno (talk) 00:05, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

If you read the Wikipedia article for "metalcore" and then listen to literally any album TBDM has put out, you will see that they're not metalcore. You'll find that the only thing that could be argued as being metalcore that they've released would be their first demo and their first EP. The next five albums they put out you'd find are just straight melodic death metal. And from what you're saying, I could go out and create three false web pages citing, say, Justin Bieber as their new lead vocalist and then actually edit the info in TBDM Wiki article saying that that is true because I have found three sites stating that? I call bullshit. You can't rely on all websites as factual sources of information, especially ones that are UNRELIABLE like the ones used. If you really insist on having "metalcore" listed as a genre of theirs, at least put an early after it as previously stated. It would make more sense. And even in the Wiki article itself it states "When asked to describe what kind of music the band plays, Strnad commented: "I've always said that we're melodic death metal. We are mostly influenced by Swedish bands and Carcass. The heavy end of our sound is the American style creeping in, with some Floridian influences like Morbid Angel, Malevolent Creation and that kind of stuff. We've been labeled more often because of our look than our sound, which is dumb, and speaks volumes about what kind of geniuses are out there!" [19] However, in an interview with Uranium Magazine, Strnad also stated, "Some bands that get labeled as metalcore are actually good, like Between the Buried and Me or The Red Chord. Metal is what I grew up with, and then I learned about punk and hardcore. But a lot of our ethics, the way we carry ourselves, is more punk...I like that hardcore has a sense of community without the competition you see in metal." So whoever was trying to say that Strnad said that they're metalcore is wrong. He'd never utter such blasphemy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plungerman14 (talk • contribs) 01:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, what you think or the band thinks is not reliable information and hence irrelevant. The bottom line is that reliable, published sources indicate that the band plays metalcore and no reliable source minimizes or mitigates the labeling. If you think "metalcore" was their early subgenre, you'll need a source to back that up - and no, what the band or fans say is not reliable sources per Wikipedia. --Danteferno (talk) 22:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

References

Protected

I have fully-protected the page for one week because of the edit-warring over the genres. I think this would be an excellent time to try dispute resolution - would you be willing to file a new request at the dispute resolution noticeboard? They're generally very good at handling things like this. Hopefully we can find a solution that you're all happy with. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 14:06, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

This has been a back-and-forth issue for over 7 years now. It begins with the three genres in place (melodic death metal, deathcore, metalcore, all reliably sourced); one (or more) users propagates "fan feedback" or the "views of the band", and insists that the band is not "metalcore" and blanks the genres they disagree with (and even the sources, too). Then, the article is semi-protected. Then, the genre warring users (mostly autoconfirms) continue their "TBDM is not metalcore!" argument eventhough reliable sources prove otherwise. Then, there's a period of dormancy (no disruption). Then, the aforementioned cycle repeats itself. In the strictest sense, there's really no dispute. Reasonable disputes on Wikipedia are always remedied by impartial consensus. The impartial consensus was that this band played (and plays) in all three genres, and reliable sources back that up. The users who blank the information have provided no explanation and oftentimes have not used the talk pages for discussion. Many other "-core" related band articles have had similar cases, this one just happens to beat out the rest, as one can see from the protection history. -Danteferno (talk) 21:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi there, and thanks for filling me in. I have a question, though - has this issue ever been discussed on other pages? I'm thinking of maybe a WikiProject talk page, or the reliable sources noticeboard, or maybe the dispute resolution noticeboard. If it has, then I'd like to view the threads and see what they say. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{(have a chat)} 11:45, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Hello, there was never any actual dispute about the sources. The only source dispute (which was brought up on the reliable sources noticeboard) was this case, about 5 months back. Another user, who has since abandoned editing the article, thought that a band interview from a non-reputable website would justify "attribution" of the band's genre. You can see the outcome of that discussion in the RSN archives. You will see that his justification didn't hold any water. As for the dispute resolution noticeboard, the editor(s) who have continuously blanked the genre are not participating in this discussion. There's no reason to believe he/they would think differently about the DSN. The pattern of the edits seems to implicate the "blankers" as infrequent editors, as having limited comprehension (or regard) for Wikipedia policy/process, and that the blanking activity is limited to the Infobox. --Danteferno (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Something i found.

So would this be enough to remove the completely wrong Metalcore label from the genre box? http://www.underthegunreview.net/2011/06/11/review-the-black-dahlia-murder-ritual/

"Often MISLABELED as a metalcore act, The Black Dahlia Murder have been delivering on their melodic death metal sound full-force since the 2003 release of Unhallowed." Seems like a legit site to me too. And if you won´t remove it, at least add "(early)" to the metalcore genre like another user has suggested (because even the band admits that their early demos were very hardcore influenced, but after that they just started to play straight-forward melodic death metal). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.80.253.12 (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Where on Wikipedia does it say that a non-reliable website reference would justify the removal or modification of published, reliable sources? I'm not finding that anywhere. Until a reliable source can be found in regards to the band's genre, there's really not much to talk about.--Danteferno (talk) 02:43, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

dead link

in section musical styles and influences, there's a dead link for deathcore.--195.29.156.245 (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Metalcore

WILL PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THEY'RE NOT METALCORE?!?!?!??!????!????!?!?!??!??!??!?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.145.213.170 (talk) 19:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia genres are determined by reliable sourcing, not reality. 72.81.235.196 (talk) 08:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Alan Cassidy Confirmed as New Drummer

Title speaks for itself. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KzAmKxIArGk#!

I would edit the page myself but it's semi-protected.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.98.195 (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2013 (UTC) 

In addition, their new single is called "Into the Everblack" not "Enter the Everblack." as seen on Metal Blade's official youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSoPRG3_ngI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.173.129.55 (talk) 07:50, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Reliable Source for Genre

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/The_Black_Dahlia_Murder/5450

Well known site in the metal community, hardcore/metalcore bands do not even get listed here, and they're simply listed here as "Melodic Death Metal." --121.99.64.157 (talk) 06:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Added it, still confused why some people think that just because someone published a book that calls them metalcore that this is considered reliable. Shreddakj (talk) 07:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah... i don't get it either. The authors of those books probably checked Wikipedia themselves when doing research on the band... and saw that "metalcore" was listed as one of their genres so they just went with it. It's just a vicious circle. Even Metallum has removed the metalcore label from their TBDM page, and they're one of the most elitist sites out there when it comes to metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.80.209.181 (talk) 01:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Apteva (talk) 03:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

---

(non-admin closure)

The Black Dahlia Murder (band) → The Black Dahlia Murder – It doesnt need the the "(band)" part because there is no other article with this name so it isnt need to differentiate the separate articles, because as again there are none. BlackDragon 22:43, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - The proposed title would still lead to confusion, irrespective of whether it has the definite article and the word "murder" compared to just Black Dahlia for the case. An uninformed reader is equally likely to be looking for the case, the novel, the two films and the video game as they are to be looking for the band. Green Giant (talk) 23:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - as Green Giant cf, Black Dahlia (disambiguation). In ictu oculi (talk) 23:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose the murder itself should be the target of "The Black Dahlia Murder" -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 03:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2014

The black dahlia murder up until around 2007 were A deathcore band. The genre labels on there read "melodic death metal/death metal" where as they should read "melodic death metal/Deathcore (early)".

Their music before and including their album "Nocturnal" was quite similar to early Melodic metalcore although obviously without the clean guitar.... there's also A lot of similarities with late 90s hatebreed and Earth crisis (mainly the riffs and drums, although earth crisis's screaming vocals are quite similar as well.) although with A lower level of Hardcore punk present (obviously because deathcore being A mixture of Metalcore/melodic metalcore and Brutal death metal/deathgrind (like suffoction and dying fetus.) There's going to be less hardcore punk influence than Metallica hardcore.

The Red Chord's first release (after their Demo in 1991) titled "Fused Together in Revolving Doors" Sounds well more like Death metal (especially brutal death metal.) than the Black dahlia murder did even in 2007 and it is usually considered A deathcore release (as well as fitting the characteristics).

The Black Dahlia's album Nocturnal (which by far shares closest resemblance to death metal out of any of their early releases.) sounds VERY similar to All shall perish's "the price of existence" which is also a deathcore release (Which was released around the same time.) but the black dahlia's release was less technical and with less clean guitar passages as well as less growling vocals.

This is off "the price of existence" (2006) It's one of the least "death metal" songs on the album, it bares A lot of resemblance to the Black dahlia murder's song linked below (the others are A lot cleaner and more technical.) (All shall perish) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmcDUZi-_cU this is A track off of their album Nocturnal 2007(the black dahlia murder) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwbj2gzzTpk This is A track from the Red Chord's 2002 release - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKA1IMMisRM&list=PL7F579BCB30D085B0 (this song obviously has A more prominent Death metal sound than the others on the album.)

My point is the Black Dahlia murder were never A straight Death metal band (if you'd like links to straight death metal bands I'm happy to oblige.) and their only Death metal material is their Melodic death metal material... which was only starting to become present after 2007 (and even their Melodic death metal material sounds more like deathcore than Melodic death metal.)

I'm not asking you to remove their Melodic death metal label although it's A very controversial label (as it could go either way.) I'm asking you to replace the DEATH METAL label with "Deathcore (early)" as all of their earlier Material is pretty standard 2002-2008 Deathcore. 49.180.123.62 (talk) 20:44, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, The Red Chord have always been considered a Deathgrind band primarily, in the vein of bands like Misery Index. That's another reason why i think labling these "borderline" bands (although i personally hear no core whatsoever in TBDM's music) is a bit pointless. People can't even decide if they are Metalcore OR Deathcore. It just seems to me that bands like these get these labels thrown on them because they have a more modern sound and, not because their music has any actual "core" elements (Sylosis was another one of these cases for a while). And let's not forget that the image of the band is kind of important in this case too. TBDM are notorious for not taking themselves too seriously and, for the most part, not looking like your typical metalhead (The vocalist is a chubby dude with short curly hair and no facial hair). Pretty much every single music video they've made after "Funeral Thrist" and "Contagion" have been nothing but comic relief and footage of them acting goofy in public places and this and metal don't really mix in a lot of people's eyes. But i do agree with you that "Deflorate" kinda marked a change in their sound, where they dropped the modern stylings and went with a more old-school approach. Undoubtedly because they were sick of the dumb labels. Well, that's just my 2 cents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.82.86.180 (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

 Not done - Clearly there is no consensus, as shown by the long discussion further up this page.
Moreover the proposal - to compare two tracks - is simply not how things work on Wikipedia - we need a reliable, independent source that states the genre, not a PoV obtained by original research - Arjayay (talk) 18:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Extreme metal

As was previously discussed here, could the introduction state the genre as extreme metal? This would make it more specific as opposed to simply "metal" (giving the reader a better idea of the type of band this is), while still accommodating all the genres the band is sometimes labelled (melodeath, death metal, deathcore, thrash metal and metalcore all fall under the term extreme metal). It seems like a good idea to me, but please outline why it isn't if you disagree.--MASHAUNIX 20:26, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have since gone through with this change, but feel free to revert it and explain your reasoning to me.----MASHAUNIX 09:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

My opinion instead of discussing as an idiot

This band is far from melodic death, mainly death metal with a huge component of technical death. Then we can discuss how much metalcore component they have, which I think is none or at most maybe in some specific passages of some specific songs, but that would be as say that Avulsed is death and classic because of decrepit sigh. Summarizing, melodic death? not at all, listen to Dark Tranquillity and TBDM one after the other and you will regret of saying TBDM is melodic death. Now listen The Faceless and TBDM and you will find much more in common. Death/Tech Death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.16.31.65 (talk) 21:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Right now we've only got sources for melodic death metal in the article. Find other reliable sources (articles, books, websites etc. written by professionals) that call them a death metal or techdeath band, and you can add that to their genres.--MASHAUNIX 21:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

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Associated acts

The Virginian death metal bands Arsis and Cannabis Corpse should be listed as associated acts as Brandon Ellis plays guitar in both. Not to mention, Ryan Knight is also a former guitarist of Arsis. http://www.metal-archives.com/artists/Brandon_Ellis/279346 http://www.metal-archives.com/artists/Ryan_Knight/7352#artist_tab_past — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:19A:8200:9244:A9BC:DDE7:78C:8E73 (talk) 13:50, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Melodic death metal, death metal

Do we really need to have death metal in the genre field? Melodic death metal is a subgenre of death metal. Also, melodic death metal has 4 sources while normal death metal has only 1 source. Statik N (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Two points: 1) Infobox genres should aim for generality (see Template:Infobox_musical_artist#genre). 2) TBDM is not a typical melodeath band. Rather, they apply the Swedish emphasis on melody onto an American death metal template, as discussed in the musical style section.--MASHAUNIX 11:10, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

That sentence wasn't sourced so I removed it. If I misunderstood its interpretation you can revert me but it seemed as if it was a source meant only for the sentence saying their first demo was metalcore and then that sentence was tacked on at some point. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:16, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2020

First introduction paragraph at the top says "Their ninth and latest album Verminous was released on October 6, 2017." on the very last line. That date is incorrect. The correct date should be April 17, 2020. There the change should be from:

"Their ninth and latest album Verminous was released on October 6, 2017."

to instead say

"Their ninth and latest album Verminous was released on April 17, 2020." Mathiashellquist (talk) 09:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

 Done Fixed, thanks for pointing this out! aboideau^talk 14:03, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

I would like to: 1 include cassette as a format for unhallowed 2 include cassette for as a format for Nightbringers 3 change "tba" in Verminous formats to cassette, CD, digital, and vinyl Krooklyn (talk) 04:52, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 10:33, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2022

Change "Links to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline hint that he committed suicide." to "Links to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline hint that he died by suicide." Cable ready (talk) 09:12, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Either wording is acceptable. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2022

A new interview with Strnad’s fiancee confirms that the cause of death was suicide and includes information about his final days: https://www.artsatl.org/moonlust-bassist-jenny-mac-mourns-death-of-black-dahlia-murders-trevor-strnad/ MaybeThisWillWork (talk) 08:00, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Lineup

Ryan Knight should still be considered a lead guitarist, both him and Brandon played solos at the most recent show. 31.205.6.55 (talk) 12:42, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

This is accurate, please update 172.58.109.163 (talk) 05:00, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Music Video directors

For the music video section:

Statutory Ape - Robbie Tassaro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIKuXnzuYGs

What A Horrible Night To Have a Curse - Robbie Tassaro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEACzoMJuMA

Necropolis - Robbie Tassaro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2qPN8ZN7U8 BobWiley42069 (talk) 04:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 September 2023

Hey all, Ryan knight plays lead guitar as well he is not just rhythm guitar this is inaccurate, him and Brandon play all their own respective solos and split the John k solos from the older album 172.58.109.163 (talk) 04:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:41, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Inaccurate info

Ryan Knight – rhythm guitar, backing vocals (2022–present), lead guitar (2009–2016) should be changed to Ryan Knight – rhythm/lead guitar, backing vocals (2022–present), lead guitar (2009–2016)

Ryan Knight will be returning to the band as the rhythm guitarist. Should be changed to

Ryan Knight will be returning to the band as the rhythm/lead guitarist. 172.58.109.163 (talk) 04:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)