Talk:T. J. Hughes/Archives/2017

Requested move 30 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to T. J. Hughes without prejudice: there is consensus against the current title, but no consensus for TJ Hughes vs. T. J. Hughes. I suggest having a centralized MOS discussion concerning similar names rather than battling through individual RMs: there is an apparent disagreement among MOS:TIES, WP:COMMONNAME, MOS:TM/STYLE and MOS:INITIALS in cases of companies named after, or resembling, personal names. (Disclaimer: I did !vote in Talk:T.K. Maxx debate, but in the opposite direction, and someone has to eventually close this hot potato). No such user (talk) 09:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

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T J Hughes → TJ Hughes – TJ is used through the article, and is the company's actual name. Also, consistent with T.K. Maxx proposal. Sb2001 ^{talk page} 18:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. DrStrauss talk 18:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support move to TJ Hughes - Makes sense to me. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

To be clear, their website does not have any puntuation in and simply says "TJ" in the logo; old branding had the dots but this seems to have been dropped over time. The suggestion as proposed seems more fitting and a google image search for the chain returns the same branding style. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

• Move to T. J. Hughes as ordinary English formatting, rather than trying to reproduce logo styling (MOS:TM / WP:TITLETM / MOS:INITIALS). Similar suggestions have been submitted for T.J. Maxx, T.K. Maxx and hhgregg. See also J. C. Penney, which omits the stops in its logo styling. —BarrelProof (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

But T.J and T.K Maxx still have punctuation in the branding, so there is no argument to made with those examples to support this case. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:32, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

• Move to T. J. Hughes - Although they only go by TJ, "T. J." makes more sense I guess so as per above move, –Davey2010^Talk 00:14, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Just to clarify my comment above - IMHO it looks more grammatically correct... Probably isn't grammatically correct mind but hey ho. –Davey2010^Talk 20:28, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

• It is largely a matter of taste. TJ is more British; T. J. is more American. Well, at least now. 60 years ago, T.J./T. J. was the dominant style in the UK. Most British style guides drop the points, most of them the spaces. A few (NHR as an example) keep both — although they generally accept the trend towards closing the spaces and stopping the stops. This is really a matter of whether we follow the company's name — and 'normal' British style — or Wikipedia's unclear style guide: some sections of this instruct editors not to change spelling, punctuation or grammar of an actual company name (TJ Hughes). I count two full stops as punctuation, others may not. –Sb2001 ^{talk page} 23:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

• "T.J." used to be standard but now "TJ" is, both in British English and in the company's logo. Peter James (talk) 16:10, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm not aware of anything in Wikipedia guidelines (or the style guides of well-respected reliable institutions) that says that. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:17, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    • If you are referring to Peter James' comment, the Guardian, Telegraph (I think), Times, Oxford and Cambridge universities (although I think that they may include spaces), NHR recognises the style. There are loads of style guides which recommend TJ. –Sb2001 ^{talk page} 20:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
      • You may have misinterpreted my comment. I was referring to the formatting of names in general, not the logo-styling name of this particular topic. Are you saying that the Times and those other publications would refer to someone named "Peter James Fischer" as "PJ Fischer"? —BarrelProof (talk) 21:23, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
        • User:BarrelProof: it is rare to see full stops used in UK English for initialisms like this, certainly in word-processed text. The spaces are applied freely. As with the stops, they are more common in handwriting, for example, you may see 'P J Fischer' on a cheque. There is still evidence of stops and spaces being used. Perhaps those with more years to their name are more likely to see their addition as necessary. And there are plenty of shops which display 'B. J. Jones and Son'. It is just rather rare. Shops such as this used to possess stops in their name, but they seem to be disappearing. Upon a major rebrand, the high street will be certain to lose a set of full stops. It is a fairly recent switch: observe these two articles from the times, the first dated 2005, and the second 2015 — [1] and [2]. –Sb2001 ^{talk page} 22:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
  • WP doesn't care what other style guides recognize as existing. WP and its MoS don't disagree that the dropping of dots and spaces exists in some other publishers' house styles. We're just not a publisher with such a house style, because it's ambiguous and confusing. Other publishers use it because it compresses text, and almost all of them that insist on it as a house style are news organizations, trying desperately to save space in columns and headlines. Wikipedia has no space-saving desperation, especially not at the expense of clarity.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
    • The point you raised at TK Maxx applies here: the company itself is very consistent. Why should we doubt their name? It uses standard keyboard characters, so it not confusing to editors. This it not about house style, rather what the company themselves use. –Sb2001 ^{talk page} 13:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
• Move to T. J. Hughes per WP:CONSISTENCY and MOS:INITIALS, per the recent move of H. H. Gregg, and per many precedents like J. C. Penney.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
  • This is not about HHGregg/JCPenney. There is inconsistency in their own naming; there is not here. Further to this, there is no argument to be had about external style guides, since they pretty much all advise spaces and points in the US. We should be considering the 'normal' style for the UK, as well as how the company name is usually written. –Sb2001 ^{talk page} 13:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.