Talk:Sabra and Shatila massacre
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Restructuring
editThe subsections U.N. condemnation, MacBride commission and Israeli Kahan commission are listed under the section "Postwar testimonies by Lebanese Forces operatives" despite having nothing (or very little) to do with the testimonies. I propose to restructure the article to move the postwar testimony paragraph to a subsection of "Role of various parties" and to rename the section about the UN condemnation and the two mentioned commissions to something along the gist of "International Response and Investigations".
Sharon libel suit
editI think it is worth mentioning that Sharon pursued a similar suit against Time in an Israeli court, which was settled by both parties with compensation which was reported as substantial ("Neither party would disclose the amount of the payment, but the Israeli radio reported that the figure was substantial" - https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/23/nyregion/time-magazine-and-sharon-settle-the-libel-suit-he-filed-in-israel.html).
typo: Germanos' report says twenty children
edit | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
- What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):
| − | Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and | + | Germanos' report determined that 460 people had been killed (including 15 women and 20 children.) |
You could also add information from Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout's book but it's not necessary:
- named, missing (persumed dead): "32 females (women and young girls)" p. 292
- female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.292)
- for children she says "In List 3, age is only sometimes mentioned: for 585 victims out of a total of 906. Of these, children account for 108 (18.46%)." (p. 292)
List 3 are those named and confirmed dead.
- Why it should be changed:
typo. The linked source says twenty but an editor must've misread tweleve.
- References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):
Bowad91017 (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- female victims named, confirmed dead: 201 (p.291 not p. 292). sorry. "in List 3, they totalled 201 (22.18%)."
- Bowad91017 (talk) 12:52, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
- here is the source (it's currently linked in the article), showing they are 20 not 12 kids in the report: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 01:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
References
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:04, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- @thetechie@enwiki what do you mean? The current version of the article says 12 but links a source that says 20 children.
- here is the source, that the article is currently using: https://archive.org/details/israelslebanonwa00zeev/page/282 Bowad91017 (talk) 07:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I will let someone else re-open if they wish. Do not re-open the request. Archive.org usually isn't reliable. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @thetechie@enwik ah I see the confusion.
- archive.org is not the source, the source is the book: Israel's lebanon war by Ze'Ev Schiff.The book is available online on archive.org for free, namely page 282. (archive.org is never a source, it's an archive of documents. the archived document can be reliable or not)
- This book is already being used in this section of the article to reference this specific claim. An editor just made a mistake. The phrase reads "includes fifteen women and twenty children" but they misread it and wrote 12 in the wikipedia article.
- Regarding the other details, they are not necessary. They are from "Sabra and Shatila: September 1982" by Bayan Nuwayhed al-Hout if anyone wants to improve the next bullet point.
- Please reopen the request, so someone more familiar can handle it. Thanks. Bowad91017 (talk) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- @TheTechie re-pinging since the first ping was a typo, sorry Bowad91017 (talk) 20:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- @thetechie@enwik ah I see the confusion.
- Done ✅ IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
- I will let someone else re-open if they wish. Do not re-open the request. Archive.org usually isn't reliable. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 15:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Death toll changes
editI changed the estimated death toll from 700 minimum to 1,300, as the 700 number is from Israeli state estimates, not an RS. Per the RS cited in the 'Number of victims' section of this article, 1,300 is the lowest estimate. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:47, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the due diligence. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:23, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Infobox
editI undid this revision by @TRCRF22 because I believe this event is frequently characterized by the majority of sources as a massacre but not as a “genocidal massacre”. There are accusations of genocide, but it is not the preponderance of reliable sources. Wafflefrites (talk) 23:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Reinstating Spelling Alternate
editI propose to reinstate the following edit to the lede:
(also known as the Sabra and Chatila massacre)[1][2]
Six years ago, I posted to this Talk page the proposed edit. After waiting for feedback, I made the edit. In January 2023, a user made a number of edits to the lede, including removal of the alternate spelling. Feedback is welcome.Te Karere (talk) Te Karere (talk) 03:03, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- I added a footnote for this. And Sabra and Chatila massacre already exists as a redirect to this article. That seems fine to me. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- ^ International Commission (1983). "Israel in Lebanon: Report of the International Commission to Enquire into Reported Violations of International Law by Israel during Its Invasion of the Lebanon". Journal of Palestine Studies. 12 (3): 117–133. doi:10.2307/2536156. Retrieved 14 October 2018.
- ^ Sassòli, Marcus; Bouvier, Antoine; Quintin, Anne. "ICRC/Lebanon, Sabra and Chatila". How Does Law Protect in War. International Committee of the Red Cross. Retrieved 14 October 2018.