Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 1

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Flag agin

To the anons who keep adding a makeup flag, please note the following: what you are adding is not the flag of the Greek community; the Greek community does not have a flag. What you are adding is the flag of the provisional state of Northern Epirus (see [1]) and it did not include the Albanian double headed eagle, it was the Byzantine eagle. I agree that the flag of the temporary state should be included if we include data on it. See also the other posts on this page. //Dirak 14:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona

Recent Edit

Permission has been given to reproduce text from Phantis. Permission can be shown on request.

Regards,

Φilhellenism 14:06, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Fundamental bias

“Orthodox Christian Albanian-speaking Greek-identifying community in Greece – migrated from this region to present-day Greece in the Middle Ages.” Are originally Albanian which came from Epir therefore autochthones there. The epir has nothing to do with Greeks no mater how Arvantas identify themselves.Dodona —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.78.74.68 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Territory or what?

This article doesn't seem to be about a region at all; it's wholly concerned with an ethnic community, viz. the local Greek minority. What are the boundaries of this region? What are its main towns, area and population, sites of interest, main rivers and mountains? Can we see a map of the region? Best, Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The Flag

The double headed eagle happens to be the old flag of the Empire of the Greeks or as it was known in western Europe Imperium Graekaorum. (Nowadays known as Byzantine Empire, a term never used by any "Byzantine"). So that's why the double headed flag is so important to Greeks, it's the national medieval symbol of Greece as a nation.

The Byzantine Empire persecuted specially the Greek and this well known, in the other hand the double headed eagle is very old pelasgic emblem more then 4 thousand years old found in Tepelena. The northern Epirus organization in reality is formed by arvanitas to protect their right in Greece then it turned agained their own people. The actual Greece flag is imported by the Germany for your artificial state. Dodona

No Dodona. The Byzantine empire prosecuted the Byzantines (or Romioi, or Greeks or whatever you want to call them) that "Elinizane" meaning the pagans or people trying to bring back the old religion. That is why Emperor Ioulios (or Julius) was called the "paravatis" (or outlaw) and Theodosios was called the "o megas" (the great). [[[User:Nefeligeretis|Nefeligeretis]] (talk) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)nefeligeretis]

Pelasgians are Pelasgians not greek,not albanian The firt bicephalous eagle was founded in Asia Minor Hittite

concerned about the neutrality in this article

This article sounds like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. What is North Epirus? Who is the president? I have marked this article as NPOV, since it contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies and has a completely pro-Greek wording which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. We should present facts neutrally and not praise one people or another.--Thank you.MD.Brian (talk) 05:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Its referenced and presents many views from both parties and third parties regarding the populations involved.Megistias (talk) 08:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. Would you care to elaborate on your claim that the article is not neutral? The article nowhere calls for the unification of Northern Epirus with Greece. It doesn't even imply that. So how does it sound "like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece"? Epirus is a geographic region in the Balkans. The southern part is called Southern Epirus, the northern part is called Northern Epirus. Like North and South America. Simple as that. It is not a country, so it does not have president (although it was an independent state between 1918-1923). You also state that the article contains glaring omissions and factual inaccuracies. Could you give a few examples? And what about the claim of "completely pro-Greek wording"? Examples, please. The article essentially covers the Greek minority in Albania. The existence of this minority is a fact, despite the most determined attempts by the Albanian government to minimize it as much as possible. Here's what the article does state: In the introduction, the article defines the concept of northern Epirus, and what it is most known for (the foustanella, and the Arvanites). Following this, the article discusses the definition of the Greek minority by the Albanian government, as well as its relation with the Vlach minority (who do indeed identify as Greeks. See relevant article). No bias so far. The next few paragraphs present the various estimates regarding the size of the minority. All sides are presented, including the dubious numbers of the Albanian government (you will notice there is actually no recent census figure, as the Albanian government deliberately omits questions on ethnicity or ethnic consciousness on the census in order to deny the existence of minorities). So this section cannot be accused of bias either. Next, the article discusses the political treatment of the minority, including all relevant incidents and the somewhat heavy-handed response of the Greek goevernment. This is discussed in a calm, objective manner, with neutral wording, and thus this section also seems pretty neutral to me. The article then discusses how the existence of the Greek minority has affected the relations between Greece and Albania, and again does so in a neutral manner. The article then highlights some famous memebers of said minority. Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere, does it praise one people over another. Where do you see evidence of that? There are minorities in most countries of the world, and Albania is no exception. It just so happens that this minority happens to be Greek (maybe because they're neighbors?). It seems to me that from what you wrote and the tone you use, that you are somehow opposed to the notion of a Greek minority in Albania. That is irrelevant to this article. You added the neutrality tag, so the burden of proof is on you to provide examples of bias in the article. If you fail to do so I will remove it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

A very interesting map

[[2]], from Le Monde Diplomatique, a highly respected and reliable French newspaper. The legend for the diagonal orange stripes read "Areas of Greek majority]]. I propose inserting the map in the article, let me know what you think. May also be applicable in the Albanians and Greater Albania articles. --Tsourkpk (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, lets use it. It's from a reliable source. Helladios (talk) 08:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Fillim i ri - Νέο ξεκίνημα.

Me too,I think it did sounded like a right-wing Greek nationalists (not the real Greeks) favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece. Go watch [3] shows Greek crimes (which in my opinionate are Greek nationalist criminals) in Epirus against Ethnic Arvanites - Albanians. Epirus was part of Albanians and Greeks. Let’s add more friendship between these two nations, not the war and not the hate. In some way is better for Greece too, you never heard of Albania invading Greece,maybe the Italians. We have so much in common, maybe we have the same ancestors, who knows, we have fought together side by side.(at least my great grandpa and his dad did) --Taulant23 (talk) 20:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC) p.s.I make the best souvlaki and tzatziki ever.

How about making an attempt at correcting what you think is wrong with the article instead of posting irrelevant messages about 'Greek nationalist crimes' and 'Greek-Albanian friendship'? Sure, good sentiments (let's pretend, despite your general behaviour) but still irrelevant. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The existence of a Greek (and Greek-idnetifying Vlach) minority in the southern regions of Albania, especially in the areas of Himarra, Saranda, Gjirokastar, Permet, and Korce is a fact, pure and simple. Before we continue, this has to be accepted and understood. To deny the existence of this minority and make noise about "Greek nationalist crimes" in some YouTube video is in itself nationalism, as well as a diversion. The only debate, as far as I'm concerned, is over the size of said minority (which is admittedly tricky to estimate). I do not understand why some Albanian editors feel so threatened by the existence of a Greek minority in southern Albania/Northern Epirus (which I use SOLELY as a geographic expression, no offense to anyone). The Greek government has never, ever, called for the annexation of the Greek minority areas to Greece, and neither does this article. As far as I know, most Greek people are against opening the can of worms of border changes, and only wish for the human rights of the Greek minority to be respected, as should be the case in a country that desires to become a member of the EU. The current treatment of the Greek minority in Albania by the Albanian government is unfair to say the least and reveals an intense paranoia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 07:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to be nice, as I said Νέο ξεκίνημα, that's all but I guees it does not work.

As far as for the article, I think you 3rdAlcove did a good job, first by taking that flag of, it has nothing to do with North Epirus but with chauvinists Greek who want to invade southern Albania(like they did 1913-1914). If you talk about North Epirus, please do not forget to edit the massacres that their Greek bandits did to the Albanian population.

In my opinion and what I have listen to the elders, in southern Albania,the Greek minority was not that big to start.Since some of the Albanians wore Orthodox, the Greek government wanted them to joy the so called Vorio-Epiri organization,gave them money to convert to "A GREEK identity", and funny but propaganda,to paint their houses blue and white, like the Greek flag. In two March 1914, with the blessing of Greek government and Mr. Zografos as the Prime Minister, they declare INDEPENDENCE of North Epirus.I would give one advice, leave the nationalistic ideas out of here, because, more you guys dig the history of North Epirus, more it will bring out the horrible stories of the massacres, that Greek bandits did to the Albanian population --Taulant23 (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s. by the way Georgios Christakis Zografos was Greece minister for foreign affairs, get that….

Actual number of the Greeks

Cia factbook World Factbook, 1994 says 3% and Defense Academy of the United Kingdom says that this is "although this is a highly contentious question".Also that numbers had been intentionally lowered since the communist regime ". However, the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages

in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."Megistias (talk) 19:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

But this number was 8% by the same agency a year before.CiaMegistias (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dab link?

Is there any particular reason the top of the page has a disambiguation link to a non-existing dab page Voreia Ipiros (disambiguation)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I didnt put it there.

Unrecognised region???

As far as I know, Northern Epirus is a historical region. Current Albanian state has no official region called Northern Epirus and also the region is not de facto administered by Greeks either. Therefore I suggest the removal of Northern Epirus from the "Non-sovereign territories of Europe" box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiturk (talk • contribs) 12:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. I shudder to think how Greek editors would react if somebody tried to add that template to Aegean Macedonia, Çameria, or Western Thrace. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

In uk source"The most visible focus of the Berisha government’s fear of Greek irredentism was the NorthernMy wa Epirus Liberation Front (MAVI), which claimed responsibility for the car bombing of Albania’s ambassador to Greece in 1991 and was accused in 1994 and 1995 of orchestrating attacks on Albanian border posts and military 22 personnel." It is contested under the table at least.Megistias (talk) 21:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Just because there are some irridentist idiots it is not a "territory" in the sense of that template. The template is for territorial units that have some real administrative status, either as dependencies of some other state (like Gibraltar) or as unrecognised de-facto-states. It is not for areas that are simply the object of irridentist claims by whoever. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm also removing the {{country}} infobox. Northern Epirus isn't a country. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

" It is not clear to what extent MAVI was a significant political and paramilitary formation rather than merely a fanatical splinter group. At the time, the Albanian government claimed that Greek army and secret police personnel were involved in the attacks. The name is adopted from the wartime Northern Epirot organisation which fought as a separate resistance group against the Axis in 1943. It was destroyed in vicious fighting with the German occupiers and the Albanian nationalist forces of the Balli Kombetar, and it played no part in the final liberation of the country." and "Greek press suggested that the Greek secret service may indeed have been either involved with the organisation or had overlooked its activities. At the same time,a former Greek government minister, Theodoros Pangalos, admitted that the Omonia Five had “very probably been linked” to MAVI. See Sullivan, op cit, p16." and "a MAVI raid on an Albanian army barracks in 30 which two Albanian soldiers died."Megistias (talk) 22:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What are you trying to show with these quotations? You haven't answered at all the point I raised. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That its contested under the table.What would i be trying to show?Megistias (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

My point was that "being contested" doesn't bring it into the scope of that template. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:16, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok then what would be?.And open demand by the prime minister?.And you removed my previous answer.Megistias (talk) 22:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about the previous removal, there was a confusing edit conflict. As to your question: It would come under the scope of the template if it had a de facto existence as an autonomous or semi-independent unit of government. Not claims. Real political organisation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

this?Megistias (talk) 22:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

No. What is so difficult to understand about "real political organisation"? Government. Administration. Actual control of the territory on the ground. Factual exercise of the powers of a state. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Then remove it.Megistias (talk) 22:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Latest edit

Latest edit removing Greek diaspora and minorities should be reverted.editMegistias (talk) 09:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone revert itMegistias (talk) 10:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

POV?

It seems like this article is written by someone who has some, at least, affiliation with Greeks or Greece. Note: "with Greek products accounting for some 21% of Albanian imports, and 12% of Albanian exports coming to Greece," Furthermore, the gallery only lists Greek notables and not any Albanians who were born in the region. This is about a region right? Shouldn't we mention a couple important cities? Because if this were about the Greek minority in Albania, than we should merge it with Minorities in Albania, or Greek minority in Albania. - PG-Rated (talk) 02:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This is about Greeks in albania and mainly on the Issue of northern epirus that is now closed.Megistias (talk) 21:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The imports/exports is referenced in the page.Megistias (talk) 21:57, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Flag

Why was the double headed eagle flag removed?

The Greeks of Northern Epirus have their own flag, just like the Albanians of the FYROM have their own.

Φilhellenism 00:47, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The image was deleted because its copyright status was unclear. I guess it could be re-added if it could be sourced properly and if there was serious encyclopedic documentation of who used it when and where and in what capacity. I would not want to have it at the top of the article, where it would imply a degree of recognition of the irridentist concept as if Northern Epirus was an actual state of politically constituted territory. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious to know what the flag of the Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia is. Because they're not using it. BalkanFever 10:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps he meant Kosovë, with its rip-off of the Bosnian flag. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Bosnia and Cyprus. BalkanFever 10:19, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I never thought of that. Silly me. I'm actually rather surprised the Kosovo Albanians accepted anything other than the red-and-black rip-off of the Byzantine emblem. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

They kind of weren't allowed to. Apparently Kosovo is multi-ethnic, and the flag needed to represent that, or something like that. BalkanFever 10:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

A good thing too.We wouldn't want to violate Byzantine copyright laws twice...Amenifus (talk) 10:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me guess: Greeks now claim the Byzantine empire as well?

LOL@Kosovo being "multiethnic". Yeah, I'm sure the 3 Serbs and 2 Roma left are loving the new flag sick. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it has actually become the symbol of the Kosovo Albanians, despite its origins. They're the only ones happy about independence. The Serbs for obvious reasons keep the flag of Serbia, and I don't think the Gorani, Turks, Ashkali, Egyptians and Bosniaks care either way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BalkanFever (talk • contribs) 20:46, 26 March 2008

The poor Roma might have something to say, though. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, according to Gorani (ethnic group): "In 1999 and over the years altogether, over 6,500 Gorans have fled to Serbia proper along with many Serb and Romany refugees." ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And Ashkali: "However, there were reports of mass expulsion of Ashkali along with Roma from Kosovo that took place after the war." ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe the Albanians are trying to assimilate all the other Muslims, so I wouldn't blame them for leaving. BalkanFever 10:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Assimilate muslims?Hardly.I doubt muslim Bosniaks or Gorani would identify as Albanian.Amenifus (talk) 11:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Last few sentences

"the Greeks continue to suffer", and "becoming aware that in the near future they will seek independence"?Isn't that just a little too much POV-ish?Amenifus (talk) 09:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

How did that manage to slip in there? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Someone remove it.(A Greek user preferably)Amenifus (talk) 09:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Why, are you incapable? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You don't miss a chance, do you?I merely wish to see if all Greek users share that opinion.Amenifus (talk) 09:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia. You have to WP:be bold, my friend! ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Bold I am, disrespectful I am not.I can be bold when the situation calls for it but prefer cooperating to edit-warring.Amenifus (talk) 10:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

the Greeks continue to suffer", and "becoming aware that in the near future they will seek independence??????

What is this? A joke or something.--Taulant23 (talk) 03:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The term Northern Epirus is traditionally used in Greece, and its usage may be found offensive by Albanians??Offensive? Please some one explain this to me.--Taulant23 (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted again.This article is getting really stupid day after day.It's a big NPOV,unless you guys are willing to work, we need to keep POV and citations missing.For all most than 3 centuries southern Albania is Albanian.So plz stop your propaganda.--Taulant23 (talk) 20:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"The term Northern Epirus is traditionally used in Greece, and its usage may be found offensive by Albanians??Offensive? Please some one explain this to me"

Calling it "Northern Epirus" rather than "Southern Albania" might sound irredentist to Albanians and as such, might be offensive. Of course it's mostly used with no such implications by Greeks. Don't get paranoid! Yes, Northern Epirus is Albanian, we all know it. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't get paranoid??? LOL trust me not even a little. I would like to see more friendship between Greeks and the Albanians. Before 90, Greeks loved Albanians but now, because of massive immigration crap, we hate each other. As far as Northern Epirus,I don’t see it as offensive to the Albanians so that’s why I don’t get it but I might me wrong.--Taulant23 (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It's offensive to Albanians since it's automatically tied with claims over modern Albanian territories,much like describing Northwestern "Greece as Chameria" would most likely insult a Greek.Amenifus (talk) 08:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

What Amenifus said. Don't worry, Taulant, we don't hate each other that much (heh), and the general attitudes will probably change as the quality of life in Albania and the open-mindedness in Greece and the rest of the Balkans improve (ditching national myths, another contentious point, will probably be a byproduct as well). The nationalism of the last two centuries in the Balkans, the communist regimes etc. did no one a favor. (Hesperian apples, not so golden?) ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The Flag of Greeks in Albania

Why is the Albanian two headed eagle randomly placed on the flag? They are Greeks right? --PG-Rated 22:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll remove the flag. What is often perceived as the flag of the Greek community in Albania (e.g. [4]) is in fact the flag of the government of Northern Epirus [5]. The double-headed eagle on the flag has nothing to do with Albania, but it is a popular symbol amongst Greeks (for example, it appears on the emblem of the Greek Army and used to be on the national emblem etc).--Tekleni 22:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

what goverment? You took the land, just as you took Macedonia, Thrace and very island. Now you are going through the boosk to see what other region might have spoken Greek

72.81.41.9 (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Map

I drafted a new map, attempting to show the extent of political "Northern Epirus" in relation to ancient/geographical Epirus as well as the Greek province. I didn't have very exact source maps to work with and I don't know the geography/history of the area too well, so I fully expect there'll be some need for corrections and tweaks. Since I know that every time I make a map for this project a shitstorm breaks loose, lemme just say, try to make your comments constructive... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no Greek minority in Korca, Tepelena, and western and northern, Gjirokaster District, the map should be redone. But, good try.balkanian (talk) 16:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to mention in the caption that it's supposed to be historical data. Early 20th century. And it was from a Greek source map, so it probably represents a maximum claim. These historical maps are notoriously problematic. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we need a more apropriate source a NPOV one, in order to do this. But whatever, we have a deletion discussion, primarly.balkanian (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

The article

The article was not deleted finally, so we can discuss to improve it. First of all I would like to start with the lead. "Northern Epirus" is not just a geographical concept, or at least it is not used as geographical term. So, the lead should be like this: "Northern Epirus is a irredentist claim, which correspondes to northern part of ancient Epirus and other parts of Southern ALbania". Do you agree?balkanian (talk) 10:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Do you agree to Chameria being defined as "an Albanian irredentist term corresponding to the Greek prefecture of Thesprotia"? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 16:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course.balkanian (talk) 16:56, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think a far better solution would be to follow the existing Chameria model: "Northern Epirus is the name used by Greeks to refer to the northern part of the region of Epirus in southern Albania." That way you're not imposing the loaded term "irredentist" (or nationalist, terrorist, etc.) on anybody. Besides, who says it's necessarily irredentist? Is it not the northern part of Epirus? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 17:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The article should remain, as North Epirus is a term referred to by many authors, sometimes indirectly through the "Corfu Protocol of 1914", including official EU legal texts (e.g. see in EU Official Journal 2003/C192E/072)the "Answer given by Mr Patten on behalf of the Commission":
The Commission is continuously monitoring the issue of minority protection, including the protection of the Greek minority, in Albania. It is aware of the 1914 Corfu Protocol.
One difference between N. Epirus and Chemeria is that N. Epirus was recognized as autonomous region, although ephemeral, by an international treaty.

(23 December 2002)Kentavros (talk)

No, Korca, Tepelena, etc are not part of Epirus (region), but are part of Northern Epirus.balkanian (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I 100% agree with ΚΕΚΡΩΨ. The term "irredentist" is not proper. But, anyway, Korytsa,Argyrokastro etc. indeed are part of the geographical region of Epirus. Being in Albania doesn't mean they suddenly change region!--Michael X the White (talk) 17:21, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Says who? The Albanian part of Epirus is not officially defined, as far as I know. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 17:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You are confusing yourself. The borders of "Northern Epirus", as an irredentist claim, are not defined. The region of Epirus is well defined. Neither Korca, nor Tepelena, and other places are not part of Epirus region, see whatever map you have about the region. This is why I say that Northern Epirus, is more an irredentist claim then a geographical term.balkanian (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Is the region of Epirus officially defined in Albania? And its "irredentist associations" are explicity mentioned in the lead; what exactly is your beef? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Since when is Northern Epirus irredentist Greek imagination? Do you have any proof concerning the "well-defined" borders of Epirus?--Michael X the White (talk) 19:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The region of Epirus is not officially defined in Albania, because it is a historic region. But the historic region of Epirus is well defined, not in Albania, neither in Greece, but in historical state of Epirus. Read Epirus (region) to find out its borders. On the other hand Northern Epirus, as well as Chameria, or Agean Macedonia, or Northern Cyprus, i.e. all these regions which are not official in a state, but used by others are irredentist. Please read what irredentist means.balkanian (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you actually read Epirus (region)??? It says that 80% is in Greece and the rest is Northern Epirus in Albania.Check it out!!--Michael X the White (talk) 14:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

??????? So what ??????? Korca is not part of that 20%.balkanian (talk) 14:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It happens to be! Anyway, the artcle Epirus (region), in which you are so based, proves that your statements are empty...--Michael X the White (talk) 14:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Todays irredentist concept of Northern Epirus does not include Kanina for example, which was part of ancient Epirus, and on the other hand incudes Korca which was not part of ancient Epirus. See, Wilkes, "The Illyrians", page xx.balkanian (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I will change the lead if there is no more discussion.balkanian (talk) 16:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You can't! Discussion so far has proved that, at least what you proposed is not to be accepted!--Michael X the White (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Did you see the map on Wilkes?balkanian (talk) 17:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Nope. And so what? "Irredentist" is your own POV--Michael X the White (talk) 17:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I wonder: have you ever read the lead: it states that Northern Epirus has been seen as a terra irredenta to greeks.balkanian (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm reffering to "Northern Epirus is an irredentist claim."--Michael X the White (talk) 18:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Whats the diference? Irredentism, is viewing a land belonging to a state, as a land that should belong to another state. This is the case.balkanian (talk) 18:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, Northern Epirus is no longer claimed by Greece.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Not openly. However, since Albania supports the independence of Kosovo, many Greek politicians are tempted to compare Kosovo with N. Epirus. See this statement of a top Greek official:

What is Northern Epirus than: an irredentist claim, no, an geographical term no (it includes Korca, for example, and not Kanina, see Wilkes)?balkanian (talk) 18:25, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is part of the region of Epirus, so yes, a geographical term.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it includes Korca and not Kanina, see the map in the article, you will see that ancient Epirus is not the modern one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido (talk • contribs) 18:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments

The article has suffered much vandalism, and we talk about the Albanian-Greek relations without taking a neutral approach! The discussion has reached far bellow wiki standarts, statements like: Greeks in Albania are not mistreated and persecuted or Albania respects Greece but Greece not, should link to the related sources. It's too bad to read stuff that u see only in nationalist brochures here on wiki.... If we wanna maintain neutrality, so we should do! Things may be different than we initially thought about a topic. Alexikoua (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we please maintain some neutrality about this article? It is ridiculous to mention Northern Epirus everywhere Albania is mentioned. There are Greek minorities in the region, but this does not make it part of the territory of Greece. As far as the treatment of the minorities goes, if the Greek minorities in Albania were treated like the Albanian minorities in Greece, Greece would probably declare war on Albania. I have friends who live in some of these villages of southern Albania and they would consider themselves to be of Greek descent. They do speak Greek and Albanian, and although they are not loved by the rest of the Albanians (due to relations with Greece), they are not mistreated. At the same time, there are many more Albanians (having been born in Albanian territory, who consider themselves such, are seen as such by the Albanian government, do not speak Greek, etc) and it would be entirely wrong to classify them as Greeks simply because the Greek government and population desires it. Dori 17:44 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

-It's only fair to take into consideration Greece's right to land claims in Epirus when Albanians do the same for land in Yugoslavia.(ie:Montenegro, Kosovo, and Macedonia)

-I agree. If Albanians want a greater Albania, they should relinquish where the majority of people speak Greek or have a Greek conscience (in the case of many Vlachs). The current boundaries of the state of Albania, drawn by the Great Powers of the day to serve their interests, do not reflect the reality of today and need to be redrawn. ^^^^ptsourkas

- The fact that the number of Albanians living in Greece has increased from virtually nil in 1990 to nearly 1 million today shows that they are well treated and welcomed by Greece. Nearly all of them have jobs and, even though they are recent immigrants, they fully participate in Greece's generous social security system, and in the nearly free healthcare system. By contrast the ethnic Greek population of Northern Epirus (representing in 1990 some 20% of the total population of Albania) has dwindled in numbers in the past decade due represssion fueled by the nationalism of the Albanian government. Let us not forget that Albania is a country with a questionable human rights record and inconsistent application of the rule of law. By contrast, Greece is a full fledged democracy that earned EU membership 25 years ago.

Do the Albanians really use the expression "Northern Epirus"? It surprises me a bit, honestly.--Aldux 13:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed it. i had not noticed it earlier. the Albanian government rejects the usage of that term, with the pretext that it implies territorial claims. quite the contrary, they use the term 'Tsamouria' for Epirus by implying nationalistic claims. since the term 'Northern Epirus' is the one used by the greeks and, in some cases, in the english-speaking world (not sure about other languages), the term in Albanian is not relevant here. About the citation u asked concerding the fact that the region is predominantly Greek Orthodox, i can't really understand if it can be disputed: the greek minority (whether it numbers 3% or 12%) is concentrated there. the Aromanian minority (also greek orthodox, and included in the 12% figure that i said above) is also there. the Tosk albanians (a great number of whom is greek orthodox) resides in the albanian south, while the predominantly muslim Ghegs live in the north... i doubt if someone can say the opposite. --Hectorian 13:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

About the Albanian name, OK. About religion, it remains unsourced, and could easily be untrue. Personally, I believe that the majority are atheist. I'll remove it until it is sourced. --Telex 14:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hectorian, less than 2/3 of Albanians in Albania are Tosk. Orthodox accounts for 20% of the population, and Catholicism for 10% (mostly in the North), so please do not act as if you know something when you in fact know nothing. And by the way Albanians are not part of the Greek Orthodox Church, but The ALBANIAN Orthodox Church, founded by Fan Noli because a GREEK Orthodox priest refused to officiate at the burial of an Albanian in Hudson, Massachusetts on the grounds that, as a nationalist, the deceased was automatically excommunicated. --PG-Rated 22:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

217.24.240.10 (talk) 12:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)==Isn't this article going a bit astray?== Don't misunderstand me, its much better than before, but it's also getting out of topic. Wouldn't it be better to reduce this articles and create a Minorities in Albania? Much of the content of the article goes well beyond Northern Epirus, as Greco-Albanian relations or the Greek minority in all Albania.--Aldux 22:27, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Let me guess my dear friend... Either you are Albanian or addicted in the Albanian Propaganda. Does your dear albanin goverment tought you anything about our war for autonomy that started in 17 february 1914? I doubt.. So here what really happend. Albanians killed us. Not alone of course with a lot of help from the Great Forces, because we didn't want to live in the albanian borders. And here is one thing about northen Epirotians we can forget a lot of things but not BLOOD. So learn history before you decide to put an X to the heroes that gave their lives for North Epirus that existed and it will existe as long as there are Greeks living there.

NPOV problems

This article seems to have some major anti-Albanian NPOV issues, in places making rather liberal use of hyperbole, and stating as fact what are clearly only assumptions or opinions. Many such problematic passages are given footnotes so as to give the appearance of unbiased authority. Two of the most egregious examples:

• "the Albanian government is not going to conduct an official census, in fear that a considerable part of the population would be registered as Greek"
• "Albania was governed by a Communist regime lead by Enver Hoxha, which transformed the country into a hermetically sealed Gulag"

I've reworded these two passages, but I don't have time to go through the rest of the article, so I'm leaving the NPOV tag up in hopes that someone with neither an Albanian nor Greek axe to grind can have a look over it. —Psychonaut (talk) 22:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, read Richard Clogg Concise History of Greece (second edition) Cambridge 2002 ISBN 960-7778-61-8 where both are clearly stated. It is also stated that the communist regime long tried to supress and Albanize the greek minority.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate

An entire paragraph is mentioned both in Greek Minority & After the communist regime(1991 till present).I would have erased one of the 2 but cannot decide which.Somebody do the honors.Amenifus (talk) 08:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

the issue of the cham albanians is not mentioned. fix it or i will have to. Realmadrid123 (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a Chams/Tsiamides article, it seems irrelevant. This article is about another region and people. However there is an link for Chams. --Alexikoua (talk) 12:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's not completely irrelevant.Technically Chameria is part of Epirus geographically.Amenifus (talk) 10:24, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

It's geographic part of Epirus, but not Northern Epirus, with the exception of Konispol and 3 or 4 villages nearby.

But it might be worth mentioning the movement of Cham people after wwii to Sarande region. However, there are no specific sources that this move changed the demographic balance of the region. An 2001 human rights watch report claims (unclearly) that they cause trouble and high criminality levels in Sarande district.Alexikoua (talk) 20:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Clogg's Concise History of Greece

There seems to be some disagreement over the wording of what purport to be direct quotations from this book. Can someone please provide page numbers for the quotations in question? I'd be happy to check the references with an eye toward settling the dispute. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It was not about that book that the disagreement was, but there is another source that supports the "keep loyal to Albania", a phrase that is mentioned after "dissolve". Anyway, I have the Greek edition that mentions "να διαλυθεί" that means "to dissolve" and not "to disperse".In the Greek edition the page is 235, chapter 7:2nd paragraph. But I've just found the data for the UK edition:Clogg, Richard [1992] (2002). A Concise History of Greece, Second Edition, Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-00479-9. --Michael X the White (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec)What I see is the wording within a quotation being altered [6] and would like to check the exact reference myself, for which I need a page number. Since you're using a translation, can you at least provide the chapter and a rough idea of where the passage occurs? Again, I'm just trying to settle things here. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

...Chapter 7 "Greece during the 90s", 2nd paragraph. (You anyway guessed right! I hadn't seen that diff at the beginning!)--Michael X the White (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I've got the reference and fixed the quote. Kafka Liz (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Liz!--Michael X the White (talk) 18:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I can check the other quotes too, if you'd like, and perhaps we can work toward getting rid of the POV tag. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't think that is a problem of references- I think it's just that the entire article and especially the part about the supressed minority doesn't sound nice to some... But it will be really helpful if you checked the other quotes as well.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that the POV tag was there because of this particular source. I meant that perhaps - and I realise this may be difficult - the issues some editors have with the article can be ironed out. I thought checking the quotes against Clogg's original English edition might be a good place to start (to eliminate any doubts people might have about a translation), and he has also edited a book on minorities of Greece that might be helpful. Are there editors here who have a problem with him as a source? Anyone else who may be reading this is welcome to chime in. Kafka Liz (talk) 00:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Map

The map showing the ancient kingdom of Epirus is really confusing and did not meet the real historical standards. Epirot tribes like the Dexari are outside of the ancient region. The fact is that the ancient kingdom hadn't stable borders and year by year the region's borders changed (it reached maximum extend to north during Alexander I of Epirus -in classical antiquity-and then Pyrrhus). We have to give the real borders of the Epirot kingdom (Is does even exclude places of proved Chaonian settlements -according to U. of Cambridge history- from 8th cent. B.C.)Alexikoua (talk) 13:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic Epirots

Imagine if we suddenly saw the emergence of a Republic of Epirus and of ethnic Epirots who would declare that the language they speak is Epirot and that it is neither Greek, nor Albanian... Politis (talk) 17:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

That's called balkanization. New small countries to emerge.Alexikoua (talk) 06:40, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

On a more serious note, I think the term 'Northern Epirus' emerged after 1913 and the creation of an independent Albanian state. Any evidence for this?Politis (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Sure, Epirus was not politically divided under the Ottoman Empire (and most the time before that). However, we have a clear political and international recognition of that term (and everything that it includes) with the Protocol of Corfu (May 1914).

It's like the terms West and East Berlin. There wasn't such division and such terms before 1945. New borders divide historical territories and generate new geographical terms. (East&West Timor, is another example)Alexikoua (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

"Notable Northern Epirotes"

Since we are talking about a region, which is inhabited by Albanians and Greeks, having a section about notable personalities should not be only about one ethnic group. I propose that this whole section be transferred to the page Greek minority in Albania, and in this page not to have notable inhabitants, because it may become a field for edit wars, introducing dozens of Albanians and Greeks in the region, in order to show the Albanianness or Greekness of the region by some editors.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually there is a difference between the (recognized) Greek minority members and Northern Epirotes. For example, Pyros Dimas belongs to an area that isn't recognized as 'minority area', so he was officially considered Albanian before moving to Greece. Some others are of Vlach origin, like the Sinas, they aren't recognized as Greek 'minority' members too. Moreover, there is a chronological gap, most of them lived before Albania became independent. The main point is I believe that only a part of them are officially considered 'minoritary' members. We can add a seperate list in the 'Greek minority' about people that lived or still live in this area and are included in the minority status.Alexikoua (talk) 13:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

You have a misconcept: Greek minority in Albania contains every ethnically Greek, Albanian national, wherever he lives, from Shkodra to Saranda, and from Durres and Tirana to Korca and Vlora. Pyrros Dimas is a member of the minority, because he is ethnically Greek, even if he does not live in the "minority zones". What you call a minority zone, is not a strict concept for ethnicity, but is rather a group of villages where Greeks form the majority, and thus every service "municipality service, road signs, etc" are biligual. But this does not mean that minority members live only there. In Saranda for example, which is not in the "minority zone", there are public school clases for the members of the minority. Also if you see the 1989 census, Greeks are found even in Shkodra, so the sense of a minority zone, is not what you think.

Secondly, even if Albania would not recognize them as a minority (which as I explained it does) this is wiki, not the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Albania, so there is no need for such arguments. Northern EPirus is a region so its famous inhabitants are Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, and whoever that was born in that region and is notable. We cannot reduce the famous individuals only into one ethnic group.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Notable albanians would be notable Southern Albanians there. Northern Epirotes and "Epirote" only applies to Greeks actually. It is not connected to the region but it is connected to the sense of Epirote- the Greek of Epirus. A good parallel example would be "Aegean Macedonia".--Michael X the White (talk) 15:07, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you in the term "northern epirotes", but even this term can apply to Greeks of Northern Epirus, only after 1913, because until then the term Northern Epirus did not exist. On the other hand, we are talking about a "region" in this page, and thus, inhabitants of that region that are famous should be added. Thinking that there would be an edit-war for this, it is better to add the Greek ones in Greek minority in Albania, the Albanian ones in Cham Albanians and Lab Albanians and Tosk Albanians and leave this page without "notable" persons, as Chameria is. On Agean Macedonia, it is just another wiki-crap, if it is that way.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

It's the same condition like 'Chams'. In Chameria/Tsiamouria live Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs. But the term 'Cham' means the Albanian of that region, because that term was adopted only by Albanians. Same with North Epirus, its a term adopted by Greeks and its closely related with the Greeks of the region, this doesnt mean that there are no Albanians, Vlachs. Moreover, many of them lived outside Northern Epirus, same with the Chams. This adjustment will bring only confusion. Imagine moving the Chams to the article: 'Albanians in Greece'.Alexikoua (talk) 17:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Thats exactly what I say. In Cham Albanians page there are all famous Albanians of that region, in Chameria page there is none. In Northern Epirus page should not be none, in Greek minority in Albania should be all famous Greeks of that region.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality of the Article

How exactly is this article neutral? 1)Greek References 2) POV statements, justified by "some independent organisations" etc etc. Tell us which independent organisations? maybe greek "independent" organisations? 3)Bolano was not elected as an independent. First term: supported by socialist party(PS) Second Term: supported by PD(democratic party) 4)Statements like "liberated the area". How exactly was the area liberated since the majority was Albanian and not Greek, something that even the map shows(epire du nord) 5) "In addition, the first printing press in the Balkans, after that of Constantinople, was founded in Moscopole (nicknamed ‘New Athens’) by a local Greek." In Moscopole there were Aromanians, not greeks, and they used the greek language because they were related to the Orthodox Church. (the passage is not even referenced). 6)many locals revolted, organized armed groups and joined the revolution. The Chimariotes even in the "History of the Greek Revolution" by the philhelene George Finlay, are called Albanians who were in conflict with ottoman authorities because of religion, not because of some national cause. Even those who fought in the greek revolution, fought for religion not for "a free greece". So stop generalizing, and adding everyone to "greeks". Himara is not even a minority zone. 7) "In antiquity the northern borders of Epirus (and of the ancient Greek world)". Do I have to remind you that the Epirotans were not identified with the greeks?? Need I remind that most historians call them Epirotans not greeks? Need I remind you that even Thucidides called Chaonians "barbarians"?. Another POV, statement.

I understand that you want to protect the rights of your so-called minority, but what you have done to this article is unacceptable, this is a totally POV artcile, which has remained unchecked until now.--Sarandioti (talk) 09:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Why dont you read the sources, they are all 'rs'? The article is npov, and has all the appropriate sources. About Moscopolis it doesn't mention that the city was razed to the ground a number of times by Muslim Albanians (5 or 6 times), if u mean that something is not mentioned.

'Liberated the area'. suppose u read another articleAlexikoua (talk) 10:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

this article NPOV? You must be talking about a different article. And you still havent answered about Bolano. Bolano was not elected as an independent, so why do you refer him to the article as confronting both major parties?(Maybe this article should be nominated for deletion again)--Sarandioti (talk) 10:39, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bolano was elected as a member of the Human rights party [[7]], in the municipal elections 2007 in Himara, nor democratic, neither socialist, won 49,16% of Himara's votes. You know it better than me. What's going on, are you afraid of Bolano there?Alexikoua (talk) 11:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

You really do not understand it do you? In the council Bolano without the help of PD or PS had no power, since he was one and the others were 9-11. Do you understand that? And no I am not afraid of a convict(Bolano). Your question towards me will be reported. --Sarandioti (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The official results of the Albanian state say Bollano was on the PBDNJ side. I'm talking on the specific election. By the way the epire du nord map, says that the Greeks are majority.Alexikoua (talk) 12:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Aleksi, the article for real contains some POVs, but we can resolve them. The map for example is a POV, because it is a map created by the Greek government, presented on Paris Conference, so it is not reliable. You should know that back then, Greece considered Greeks every Orthodox of Southern Albania, so you should not rely on it. Cheers,Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The map itself (the way it is seen here) doesn't prove Greek or Albanian majority (Saradioti believed that it showed Albanian majority, that's a clue). According to the data presented on Paris conference by Greece, it is mentioned on demographics section. Alexikoua (talk) 13:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC) The map shows albanian majority. Orange for Albanians, blue for Greeks. It clear which colour dominates the map.--Sarandioti (talk) 13:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

We should avoid the data`s of Greece and Albania, unless they are from censuses. Ofcourse Greece would say that the majority is Greek and Albania that the majority is Albanian.Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course we should not use albanian or greek/philhelene/propagandist/revisionist sources. --Sarandioti (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

http://up.wiki.x.io/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg/742px-Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg There is also this map about Epirus, by a french cartographer --Sarandioti (talk) 14:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

How about this [[8]] quite equal right?Alexikoua (talk) 16:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Not really, because it is based on the church of each "ethnos", not nationality. Plus, its from a greek source, so even if the author is non-greek it cannot be called NPOV. However, if you can explain how all these Albanians, Bulgarians and Turks became Greeks(in contrast to most sources) then why not accept it? Best Regards--Sarandioti (talk) 16:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This map [9] is from "Le Monde Diplomatique", one of the most prestigious publications out there. For those of you who don't speak French, "Zones a majorite grecque" means...."zones with Greek majority". --Athenean (talk) 18:14, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This map [10] is from "Le Monde Diplomatique", one of the most prestigious publications out there. For those of you who don't speak French, "Zones a majorite albanais" means...."zones with Albanian majority". --Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Balkanian my friend, you need to brush up on your French :) --Athenean (talk) 18:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I know, but you should not bring maps, for which you and I, have disscussed and have pointed out that are unreliable. Remember? Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The map is erroneous in many parts(the map was not created by le monde afterall). I am from Saranda city which is displayed as a "greek majority" city, but in Saranda there are less than 500 greeks/vlachs. The same applies to Delvine, Korce, Gjirokaster and Erseke city. Greeks are majority in some villages in sarande/gjirokaster/kolonje district. That's all. None of us can disagree on the matter that because of the orthodox church many ethnic Albanians were considered Greeks by the greek state and international sources i nthe beginning of the 20th century(and even today). That is why in late 19th century maps we see Albanians forming the dominant majority in Epirus, while after the first Balkan war, they "suddenly" become greeks. A [11] I took from a book by Miranda Vickers about Albanians. I know that many of our greek friends here in wikipedia will disagree with the passage, but according to this, most articles about Epirus are POV. You don't see albanian wikipedians POV-ing, so stop POV-ing Alexikua and Athenian. Best Regards--Sarandioti (talk) 18:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

No, no, Sarandioti! There is another map from Le Mond Diplomatique, which shows no single Greek in Southern Albania. And Tsourpkp knows that very well. He just wants to make noise, as always.Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely no one here is interested in Sarandioti's OR and POV interpretation of sources, and B.w., stop using my old username. Not a single Greek in southern Albania? Are you color blind? Look at the map again. --Athenean (talk) 18:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

POV interpretation? Watch articles of all the cities I mentioned, and you will see that nothing I said was POV, so this was not an "interpretation" just a mere presantation of facts, facts accepted also in wikipedia. By saying that I am POV-ing you are accusing all those who contributed in these artciles and generally wikipedia Athenian. Now calm down, or I'll report you. Best regards --Sarandioti (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

To athenean: Why are you bringig, maps that you have reverted, arguing that "the ref conflicts with itself"?Balkanian`s word (talk) 18:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Back then I didn't know you as well as I do now, and I was naive enough to assume good faith on your part. I did that as a favor to you, as a compromise. In any case, I posted the map as a reply to Sarandioti, and both MondeDiplo maps clearly show Greeks in the Saranda area, which I think conclusively refutes Sarandioti's point. --Athenean (talk) 19:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Athenian, you are personalizing the matter and getting POV. As I said calm down, and try giving at least some explanation to the Miranda Vickers passage, and the 19th century map I presented. Answering with another map wich ultimately is not a Le Monde map(just copied by lemonde) for different purposes, and disagreeing with the articles of wikipedia and cia stats and albanian demographics and plain eyesight is not a respond. Calm down, and try discussing the issue with facts.--Sarandioti (talk) 19:31, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

"Cia stats", "Albanian demographics", and "plain eyesight" are not reliable sources. Le Monde Diplomatique is. Simple. --Athenean (talk) 19:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we agree. Le Monde Diplomatique states that there is no Greek in the region. Look at it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This map balky shows Greeks in NW Albania. But that's good, u don't see Greeks I see, it should be the perfect magic map for an wikipedia article (like the other that Sarandioti sees Albanian majorities on the Greek sourced map of 1913). What's this mapgame for?Alexikoua (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Previously I regarded the map of "epire du nord" as dubious, maybe even showing albanian majority(colours were not clear), but seeing that it actually comes from the army of greece in that period, well, that clearly identifies it as POV --Sarandioti (talk) 13:51, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, Saradioti is banned for suckpuppeting, I suppose the issue's clossed.Alexikoua (talk) 05:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I dont think the issue is closed, Sarandioti is banned, but his point is clearly right. The map, is just the Greek POV of that time, not the factual ethnic composition of the region on that time.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The map itself doesn't prove anything (the resolution isn't egnough detailed to see the number anyway), apart from the region's boundaries. Sara. saw Albanian majority, for example. Description changed.Alexikoua (talk) 11:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but it just needs a double click, to full anybody, in Sarandiotis POV, or in yours. Also, it has a s a description "ethnographic map...", which makes somebody intrested on that issue, to go and double click it. Should I create a map fabout the boundaries, based on this one?Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be pov too. You mean that when you see the map on the article there seems to be an Albanian majority and when double click a Greek majority? What should be write below? Do not click, data changes? Just jocking, I've changed the description anyway Alexikoua (talk) 16:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Total population of Northern Epirus?

Does anyone know what is the total population of Northern Epirus? Not just Greeks! AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

[This book] gives a 2002 estimation p. 547 (577,000)Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you (all of you) see it reasonable to put that on the article? AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Sure, it would be a nice addition on demographics.Alexikoua (talk) 19:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

That number seems to be for "Epirotes", which in that book is probably some ethnic identity rather than the entire population of Northern Epirus. Otherwise they wouldn't be reporting so wildly divergent numbers. I am against including such a number since it would only open another can of worms. Hans Adler 19:02, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

1987 Greece lifts state of war

I made an edit to specify that Greece lifted the State of War with Albania, which had been active in Greece by law since 1940. --sulmues (talk) 15:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Good addition, but you forgot to write that Albania was the European equivalent of North Korea [[12]] that time, as per Petiffer. Your addition is highly unbalanced and pov the way its written.Alexikoua (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Albania the equivalent of North Korea? So how come Italy didn't have a state of war with Albania? Could you explain why it's POV? It's funny that you mention Pettifer, because you (and Mr. Megistias) have removed dozens of references to his four-hands books with Vickers. --sulmues (talk) 15:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

No massive reverts

What does this revert ([13]) mean? --sulmues (talk) 17:23, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It means I do not agree with your edits, and I consider them POV-pushing. You are trying to make Greece look like an aggressor state. Also the presence of Greeks in Northern Epirus is substantial, and I do not appreciate your weasel-wording. You do not own this article, and you failed to discuss your edits on the talkpage before making them, so don't pretend to be surprised if you are reverted. Athenean (talk) 18:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Please revert yourself as:

1. Greece lifted the state of war with Albania after 47 years. Albania didn't have a law on it, but Greece did. It was Italy who invaded Greece, but guess what country Greece was at war with? Albania. It has to be stated that Greece lifted its own law. Albania never wanted to be in war with anyone. Saying "the state of war was lifted" in passive is highly vague. Who lifted what?

2. What is "substantial"? You don't even have in the article the number of the "Northern Epirus" population, how do you assert the word "substantial" in the lead paragraph? Substantial is a highly controversial word if you don't have the numbers to endorse that. As a result my edits were very well made.--sulmues (talk) 19:07, 16 March 2010 (UTC)