Talk:Northern Epirus

Link to discussion about Northern Epirus artcile on Wikiproject Greece page

Link to discussion about Northern Epirus article on Wikiproject Greece page [1]

Incident not relating to this article

@Alexikoua I am not going to continue this, but the reason for "Northern Epirus" being mentioned is due to the specific low-quality outlet you've chosen. In the same way, I could provide numerous news articles from Albanian outlets that do not mention it. It would be more informative to see how authoritative, serious news outlets reported the news, like "Associated Press" (one of those you've included yourself). Associated Press did not mention "Northern Epirus", because it's unrelated. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:18, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

There is no issue about the sources I've provided, they are RS, they mention that Himara is part of the region known as Northern Epirus. If one out of many sources does not mention N.E that's obviously not an excuse to claim that the events are unrelated. You should not rely exclusively on Albanian newspapers, that's the English wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Alexikoua APN is not Albanian, and it seems that neither Ta Nea (Greek) nor other authoritative European newspapers make any mention of it. In addition, the newspapers you've provided placed the story (of NE) in a specific section without wanting to establish any explicit link. This tells us a lot about the quality of these publications. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 20:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Agree, the event of the arrest pf Fredi Beleri has essentially nothing to do with the geopolitical concept of Northern Epirus. I will go ahead and remove it until Alexikoua can provide a reason as to how these two subjects are linked. Alltan (talk) 20:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Beleri's arrest was reported in multiple international news sources and is very notable. Of course it is related to Northern Epirus. No explanation has been provided as to how it is not related. Until then it should stay. Khirurg (talk) 21:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg Before writing, it’s important to read and understand the context. While this incident has been covered by various newspapers, it does not pertain to Northern Epirus as a geopolitical entity. Authoritative news outlets such as Associated Press News do not mention NE. That is simply because it is unrelated. Simply stating "of course it is related" is not sufficient. On the other hand, some low-quality Greek newspapers have mentioned NE in a separate section, but without establishing any explicit connection. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

some low-quality Greek newspaper? What exactly makes the newspaper "low-quality"? Is it the fact that it's Greek? Besides, Providence, which is not Greek, also mentions Northern Epirus and explicitly connects it. Khirurg (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg You know what determines the authority of a newspaper, so don't play that card. Instead, can you provide any evidence that the arrest of Bejleri was not a coincidence and that it was due to him supporting Northern Epirus? Even the least reputable of the news outlets would not explicitly make such a claim. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg To make things clear: Beleri was arrested for vote-buying and nothing else, which is why it is not relevant to this article. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

How is it not relevant? As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested. It's not a coincidence. Khirurg (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

How is it relevant to this article specifically? Was he arrested because he supported an idea of Northern Epirus? Was he voted in because of the same reason? This is what would make the even fit in the WP:SCOPE of the article. Alltan (talk) 22:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

If you read the sources you removed, you would see how the matter falls within the scope of the article. It's the latest installment in a long history of repression of the Greek minority, and fits within the pattern of the content described in the article. Khirurg (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Instead of "repression", I see a person buying votes in a video. Wait until/if reliable academic sources say sth on the issue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:03, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

And he was not a "Greek minority candidate" because the main party of his coalition was Berisha's party. Beleri's own party won a small fraction of the votes for the municipality council. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:14, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

As one of the sources makes clear, there were 31 cases of alleged vote-buying, yet only Beleris was arrested Absolutely not true. Several people were arrested for vote buying throughout Albania, and that can be easily sourced. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:24, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

@Khirurg Providence also mentions NE and explicitly connects it. No, it does not. In all 5 instances, its mention is either a quote from or related to a written letter by Greek Ioannis Lagos to the European Commission. Instead, along the article, the focus is on the "violation" of minority rights in Greece, which is why this incident should be taken to Greeks in Albania or to Albania-Greece relations. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 07:58, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Map

Alltan started in March a topic about the infobox map (Talk:Northern Epirus/Archive 12#Infobox map). I didn't have the time then to read about the subject, but it requires a more in-depth discussion. According to Alltan the map (...) refers to claimed numbers of Greeks but it doesn't acknowledge that Albanians live and they make up the majority in most of the "green area", but I think that the issue should be discussed differently:

• • The map doesn't depict any Greek claims and it doesn't represent Greek historiography as represented in major specialist sources which are used in many articles. It is based on a single map from a source which is not academic, but a newspaper. It is an exampled of WP:UNDUE and cherry-picking.
    • Kokolakis, Mihalis (2003). Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820–1913) [The late Pashalik of Ioannina: Space, administration and population in Ottoman ruled Epirus (1820–1913)]. Athens: EIE-ΚΝΕ. p. 52. ISBN 960-7916-11-5. summarizes the extent of local Greeks in the vilayet of Janina in the late Ottoman era:
      • Τα αλβανικά αποτελούσαν την κυρίαρχη ομιλούμενη γλώσσα προς τα βόρεια μιας γραμμής που άρχιζε από την περιοχή των Αγίων Σαράντα, περνούσε δίπλα από τις πόλεις Δέλβινο και Αργυρόκαστρο (ανάμεσα στα χωριά Κολορτσί και Δερβιτσάνη) και φτάνοντας στην Πολίτσανη, όπου και το βορειότερο άκρο της επαρχίας του Πωγωνιού, στρεφόταν προς τα νοτιοανατολικά και ακολουθούσε περίπου την πορεία των σημερινών ελληνοαλβανικών συνόρων53. Τα εδάφη που βρίσκονται νότια απ' αυτή τη γραμμή, δηλαδή το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα της κοιλάδας της Δρόπολης, τα βορινά χωριά του Πωγωνιού, τα περισσότερα χωριά της Ρίζας του Δελβίνου (Δρόβιανη, Μάλτσανη, Δίβρη, Λεσινίτσα) και ο κάμπος του Βούρκου μεταξύ Δελβίνου και Αγίων Σαράντα ορίζουν μέχρι σήμερα την έκταση των ελληνικών μειονοτικών περιοχών στην Αλβανία. (...) α. Ο συμπαγής ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός καταλάμβανε το σύνολο των εδαφών στα νότια και ανατολικά του ελληνοαλβανικού γλωσσικού συνόρου, όπως το περιγράψαμε παραπάνω, με εξαίρεση τις βλαχόφωνες περιοχές της Πίνδου, τους αλβανόφωνους της Τσαμουριάς και κάποιες ακόμη μεμονωμένες γλωσσικές νησίδες (τα αλβανόφωνα χωριά της Δρόπολης Φραστανή και Μουζίνα, τους Τουρκόγυφτους της Βοστίνας56, τους Αρβανιτόβλαχους του Μετζητιέ κ.λπ.). Σε αυτόν περιλαμβάνονταν και οι περισσότεροι από τους αστικούς μουσουλμανικούς και εβραϊκούς πληθυσμούς των Ιωαννίνων, της Αρτας και της Κόνιτσας. β. Ο διεσπαρμένος ελληνόφωνος πληθυσμός περιλάμβανε τις ελληνόφωνες νησίδες που βρίσκονταν πέρα από το κυρίως ελληνοαλβανικό γλωσσικό σύνορο, δηλαδή ορισμένα παραλιακά χωριά στην περιοχή της Τσαμουριάς (Σαγιάδα-Μαυρούδι), τρία στη Χειμάρρα (Χειμάρρα-Δρυμάδες-Παλιάσα), δύο στην Αυλώνα (Αρτα και Σβερνέτσι) και μικρό αριθμό οικογενειών στα αστικά κέντρα του Αργυροκάστρου και της Αυλώνας. [Translation:Albanian was the dominant spoken language to the north of a line that started from the region of Agioi Saranda, passing by the towns of Delvino and Argyrokastro (between the villages of Kolortsi and Dervicani) and reaching Politsani, where the northernmost tip of the province Pogoniou, it turned towards the southeast and roughly followed the course of the current Greek-Albanian border53. The lands south of this line, i.e. the largest part of the Dropoli valley, the northern villages of Pogonio, most of the villages of the Riza of Delvinos (Droviani, Maltsani, Dibri, Lesinitsa) and the plain of Bourkos between Delvinos and Agioi Saranda still define the extent of the Greek minority areas in Albania. (...) a. The solid Greek-speaking population occupied all the territories to the south and east of the Greek-Albanian linguistic border, as we described above, with the exception of the Vlach-speaking areas of Pindos, the Albanian-speaking areas of Tsamouria and some more isolated linguistic islands (the Albanian-speaking villages of Dropoli, Frastani and Muzina ) This included most of the urban Muslim and Jewish populations of Ioannina, Arta and Konitsa. b. The scattered Greek-speaking population included the Greek-speaking islands that were beyond the main Greek-Albanian language border, i.e. some coastal villages in the area of Tsamouria (Sayada-Mavroudi), three in Heimarra (Heimarra-Drymades-Paliasa), two in Avlona (Arta and Svernetsi ) and a small number of families in the urban centers of Argyrokastro and Avlona.] This description by Kokolakis is what all relevant sources - including Greek authors like Giakoumis and Kallivretakis - in relevant article discuss except for this one. The map created by Alexikoua overextends the area inhabited by Greeks to areas where no Greeks lived and Greek was never spoken. As such, the point of view advocated by Alexikoua's map doesn't reflect Greek, Albanian or international historiography. I exclusively referred to Kokolakis (2008) without presenting the consensus in Albanian historiography in order to highlight that the consensus in Greek historiography doesn't support Alexikoua's opinions in the slightest. If Alexikoua is willing to change the map according to Kokolakis (2003), then I can wait for a week for him to apply necessary changes to the map. If Alexikoua isn't willing to change the map then I will remove it as this is what is explicitly expected to be done in such cases. If Alexikoua doesn't even respond - as has happened in the past - then it's a WP:SILENT negative response and I will remove the map.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:36, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

The map was created by Future Perfect and it's stated in the maps description, I just made some minor adjustments without changing any borders/regions. I suggest it should be wise you inform the creator. Alexikoua (talk) 03:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

My opinion is to change the area to the one based on Le Monte Diplomatique. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't provide a map on this and creating a map simply being based on partial geographic descriptions isn't the best option and OR is a possibility. Le Monte Dimplatique has provided a solid map on this case.Alexikoua (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The earliest version of the map shows Alexikoua as the creator. Le Monde Diplomatique is not an academic source and anything published by any newspaper doesn't have any WP:WEIGHT when compared to historiographical sources which specialize in the specific subject. I'll remove the map per the consensus in bibliography and I will expand part of the article based on Kokolakis (2003).--

Maleschreiber (talk) 15:57, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber: A say it again: this is the original map: [[2]] & creator is Fut. This is also stated that in the later version [[3]]. I usually try to be kind and inform the creators if there are issues with their images. I suggest you should follow that advice.Alexikoua (talk) 00:28, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

A map in the infobox is essential for an article such as this. We can modify the map, or replace it with something like this [4], with a caption along the lines of "Maximal territorial claim of Northern Epirus" or something similar. I note that similar articles, like Chameria, have a map in the infobox. Khirurg (talk) 23:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Btw, here is the original version by @Future Perfect at Sunrise: [5]. Not sure why it's in Spanish though. Khirurg (talk) 23:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Le Monde Diplomatique is wp:RS it's actually one of the best modern sources about international relations and diplomacy, nothing wrong on it. We can use the Greek minority border without hesitation.Alexikoua (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The map in the infobox of Chameria is completely different to the map used here; if you'd like to propose something similar, sure, we can see what options there are. Nonetheless, this map is incorrect, misleading and gives the wrong impression in regards to Greeks in Albania. The distribution of Greeks in Albania (which as was previously stated is incorrect and misleading in this map) is also not worthy of inclusion in this article's infobox. We don't have an ethnographic map of the historical distribution of Chams in Chameria for the Chameria article. Botushali (talk) 01:52, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The map in the infobox of Chameria (that's my creation indeed) also includes areas where Albanians were tiny minorities and its based on a map of Kokolakis, as such it's not OR. On the other hand Kokolakis doesn't offer a map on the Greek speaking population. Kokolakis just provides a partial picture of areas with compact Greek presence of the mid-19th century. Kallivretakis a partial picture of the end of the 20th century. Le Monte Diplomatique is quite helpfull to provide a clear picture on this by providing a map with the areas of Greek presence in s.Albania. The region should include areas where Greeks are also a local minority (Leskovik, Korce, Permet etc) not just the majority ones.Alexikoua (talk) 03:03, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Khirurg's proposal about a map which depicts just the geographical limits of the concept solves many issues. @Alexikoua: Neither Kokolakis, nor Kallivretakis describe a partial picture. They describe where Greeks/Greek-speakers live(d) from the 19th century to today and where they didn't. This excludes all areas northeast of Biovizhdë, which is a Vlach village, all of Konispol, much of Delvinë, Lukovë and other areas. The map was removed because it depicted all of these areas as inhabited by Greeks/Greek-speakers. As this is not the case, the map was removed. If a realistic map which doesn't contradict many other articles was created, it wouldn't be opposed. One thing which I'm starting to realize by comparing different authors is that differences between authors from Albania and Greece are far fewer than what they're made to be by Alexikoua's edits. There are differences in interpretation - as expected - and these differences generate different POVs, but the gap between the POVs doesn't correspond to narratives which come up here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:59, 11 July 2023 (UTC)