Talk:James Milner

Style of play

I find that Sky Sport's 'Opta Jurys' are useful for supporting claims made in this section. Some info from here may improve the article. Sir-Nobby 17:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Bit out of date isn't it. Buc 21:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. Sir-Nobby 16:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The link doesn't work as Sky Sports have changed the whole format of their website around, including the Opta Audit section. I'll try to find it again. Sir-Nobby 17:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Better lead image

[1]

Clearly I'll need to get there permission first. Buc 14:35, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I take it you got their permission then? It's certainly a better image to use in the infobox, very clear and shows his face. Sir-Nobby 17:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

GA comments

Hello, here are my comments.

• First, I'm not sure Milner should be rated as High importance. After all, Geoff Hurst who scored a hat-trick for England in the World Cup Final is rated as High and I can't imagine Milner being quite on his level of significance yet.
  •  Done Buc 08:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "football player" - just footballer will suffice.
  •  Done Chensiyuan 02:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "As a child Milner was recognised as a talent in football, cricket and as a long distance runner from the age of nine." - why specify the runner age, seems incongruous.
  •  Done age removed. Chensiyuan 02:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "...becoming a ball boy at the club. He began his career..." - missed the bit where he became a footballer and signed for the club?
  • Well these are touched on, not sure if details are needed in the lead but I've added a bit more anyway. Buc 08:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "...hundred appearances for them." - who, Swindon, Villa or Newcastle - it's not clear.
  •  Done should be clear now. Chensiyuan 01:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "...starting 11..." - don't like this - use eleven here.
  •  Done Chensiyuan 01:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• Presume you have permission to use the photograph.
  • Yes Buc 07:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• Ref [2] doesn't verify that he got 11 A's or higher at GCSE. He got 11 GCSEs, that's all it says.
  •  Done Removed A's. Chensiyuan 01:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "He was the cross-country champion and the district champion over 100 metres for three and two consecutive years respectively.[1]" - difficult sentence to decipher.
  • How about now? Buc 07:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "...striker; Alan Smith..." - why semi-colon?
  •  Done presumably a typographical. Chensiyuan 01:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "...Under-17 summer tournament..." - what is this - a Euro/World tournament?
  • Neither just a tournament against three other U-17 teams. Buc 07:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "He appointed Mick McGuire, who was the deputy, chief executive of the PFA, as his agent." - no citation.
  • I'd leave it to the principal editors to find the ref; all I could find is McGuire being his agent and a executive of the PFA, but not his date of appointment. Chensiyuan 03:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I've got a better idea, remove it althogether. Buc 08:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "At the start of the 2003–04 season, Milner was sent on a month-long loan to Second Division side Swindon Town to gain experience as a first team player. He saw it as a "valuable experience".[2]" - merge sentences, with "...player which he saw as...".
  •  Done Chensiyuan 03:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "Their ultimate relegation..." just "Their relegation..." will do.
  •  Done Chensiyuan 01:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "In September he made his début in European competition, when Newcastle played Israel's Bnei Sakhnin in the UEFA Cup. He scored his first competitive goal for the club against West Bromwich Albion in a 3–1 win, after coming on as a substitute for Patrick Kluivert." - citations please.
  •  Done Buc 07:22, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "1 January" - add year.
  •  Done Chensiyuan 01:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "In June, Milner competed for England at the European Under-21 Football Championship where he played in all four of England's matches. He was booked in the semi-final, which meant he would miss the final, yet scored twice in the penalty shootout, which England lost 13–12." - citation needed.
  •  Done Buc 07:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
• "He displays maturity beyond that expected from someone of his age, he lives with his parents and sister. He rarely drinks alcohol or goes out at night.[3] His heroes are former France captain Zinedine Zidane and Barcelona striker Thierry Henry. He owns a BMW X3 and previously owned a Ford Focus. He enjoys most comedies particularly Friends and The Office, he also sees himself as a funny person. He also owns a PlayStation and a pet Canaan hound named Zizzi." - pure fancruft - is it what you'd find in an encyclopaedia?
  • I know but the Off the pitch section is so thin on the grounds anyway so I'm going to keep it in for now. If something major happen off the pitch I'll remove it. Buc 07:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
    • It's non-encyclopaedic, full stop. It should go. The Rambling Man 07:43, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Basically, there shouldn't be a compulsion to keep an "Off the pitch" section simply because many (good) soccer articles have it. If Milner doesn't really do anything noteworthy (in the include-in-WP-sense), then I think there's nothing wrong with removing the section altogether. Those soccer articles which have such a section usually deal with noteworthy pursuits such as extensive philanthropy, big money endorsements and what not. Milner's still young, until he has done something noteworthy off the pitch (or if you can find something), we don't really need the section. It's painful to take away content I know, but why not if it doesn't reduce the quality of the article? Chensiyuan 08:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I vote remove as well (well, I would do, wouldn't I?)... The Rambling Man 09:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

So there's quite a lot to do here. I'll fail it for the time being but I hope it is brought back to WP:GAC improved shortly put it on hold. Let me know if anything needs additional explanation. The Rambling Man 20:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)]]

"...so it remains to be seen if Milner will be able to successfully make the transition...." - original research - remove please. The Rambling Man 18:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Rephrased Buc 19:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, my criteria are harsh, but I'm prepared to accept this article is good enough to be a GA now. Well done. The Rambling Man 19:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

While playing there, Graeme Coulson, a coach from Rawdon recognised his talent and asked a parent who he was. Coulson persuaded Milner to play for his Rawdon side in various tournaments.

Is questioning of the parent informative or essential? If not I would suggest:

While playing there, Graeme Coulson, a coach from Rawdon recognised his talent and persuaded Milner to play for his Rawdon side in various tournaments.

No big deal it either way I guess--Random Replicator 04:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a usable photo of James Milner with the Champions League trophy? This is after all his biggest footballing achievement? TheRealGutripper (talk) 07:52, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit

As requested, I am in the process of copy editing this article so it can be nominated for FA status. I think the Career section needs a paragraph before the first heading - maybe some of the content from Early life could be moved there? --carelesshx _talk 18:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Non-free images

The images Image:Milnercross.JPG and Image:James Milner 17.JPG are unsuitable for use as the flickr pages show that they are licensed for non-commercial use only. I have contacted the authors of both images requesting that they amend the licence to allow use in this article. I believe Buc has contacted the owner of Image:Milner2.JPG, as this has the same problem. --carelesshx _talk 01:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Milnercross.JPG is now correctly licenced. I am waiting to hear from the creator of Image:James Milner 17.JPG --carelesshx _talk 22:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The creator of Image:James Milner 17.JPG has agreed to change the licence to one suitable for wikipedia. I'll update the page as soon as I hear from him. --carelesshx _talk 12:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland under 14s

How did he qualify to play for them? Sir-Nobby 10:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• The ref doesn't say. Buc 14:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

  You should find one that does. It's anomolous... The Rambling Man 14:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

  • It has a ref that says he played for them. Buc 14:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

    But it's a fair question. If he's England U-21, how did he get to play Ireland U-14? The Rambling Man 15:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

    • Played for Ireland under 14s before England U-21. 82.6.166.197 (talk) 21:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Copyedit

He didn't play for the Republic - ever. Has actually played for England at every level except under 18's, and senior, being promoted to the 21's very early hence the record number of caps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.75.58 (talk) 17:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Update of caps

just updated some of the statistics on his appearances for this season, and is one european game and goal i've wrote accurate since 31 august underneath :) Jonoridge (talk) 21:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Teetotal

I added him to the List of teetotalers. However there is no appropriate section to add the info. If in the future a 'personal life' section is added then this fact should be mentioned; as things stand it doesn't warrant creating a section just so this fact is included in the article.--EchetusXe 13:55, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

• - tee total - Off2riorob (talk) 14:44, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

WORSS

J — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.151.23 (talk) 10:02, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

typo/date error

how was he still playing for the young lions in 2009 when he was 23?

duncanrmi (talk) 19:27, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

>>This team is for English players aged under 21 at the start of the calendar year in which a two-year European Under-21 Football Championship campaign begins, so some players can remain with the squad until the age of 23.<<

oh.ok.

duncanrmi (talk) 19:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Height in infobox

I propose switching this player's height in the infobox to feet and inches first:

• England uses feet and inches for height and he is English.
• Wikipedia MOS guidelines for articles related to English people says to use feet and inches first.
• The PFA Footballers' Who's Who 2010-11 (the English football player bible) gives his height in feet and inches with no meters on page 289.

Please indicate if you disagree with this change. Speccy4Eyes (talk) 23:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree, current source (official league organ) and many others uses meter. QED237 (talk) 23:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

The Wikipedia MOS guidelines says use feet and inches first for English people. The official Footballers' Who's Who bible produced by the Professional Footballers' Association uses only feet and inches. Why do you want to go against those? Speccy4Eyes (talk) 23:13, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Disagree. Leave it as it is as per Premier League. Michael Glass (talk) 04:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Height adjustment

As we have seen with errors in other articles the Premier League site is not the most reliable source for height data. So we should drop it. And as Michael Glass is arguing for Shay Given to use the height given by his national team rather than the height given on the Premier League website then I think he will support doing the same here. The England team website gives his height as 5' 8" (1.75m) [2]. So I propose we do the same here. If anyone disagrees please explain why the different rules for different players. Speccy4Eyes (talk) 22:11, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

No apparent disagreement in more than 4 months, so actioned. Note too the clause in WP:UNITS which says for articles related to the UK: "the primary units for personal height and weight are feet​/inches and stones/​pounds". Speccy4Eyes (talk) 16:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Reverted, clear disagreement in section immediately above. Qed237 (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:James Milner/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

The club career part suddenly stops in 2013 and the international career in 2012. It was in good shape when it was GA, now I it does not suit the criteria, because it fails "broad in coverage" and it hence says only about goals and debuts. Tagging the major editors - @Bucs, Chensiyuan, Mattythewhite, and Sir-Nobby:. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 09:36, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Given the number of games he played and goals he scored in 2014-15, it's surprising there isn't any info in the article about him for that season. I might try to improve the article at some point next week but I'm extremely busy sadly so there's no guarantee. Sorry. Spiderone 17:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

It's been over a year since this was opened, @Royroydeb: need to reach a conclusion. 92.2.79.212 (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Resuming reassessment

Although Royrobdeb has not edited on Wikipedia for four months, this individual reassessment should continue because the article clearly needs significant work to meet the GA criteria.

The most pressing need is for the "citation needed" templates to be dealt with. There are several dozen of them; no article with so much need for inline source citations satisfies the Verifiability criteria. However, based on my discoveries in the Early life section, where five of six of these templates could be safely removed, there are overcitation issues that need to be addressed with regard to these templates; it's very rare that an article needs every single sentence cited, since if an inline citations covers two or more sentences, only the last of these sentences needs an inline citation. In addition, two of the references are bare URLs, do not therefore meet verifiability standards.

I don't know whether the issues regarding broadness/completeness raised by Royroydeb have been addressed in the subsequent 14 months; there does seem to be some new material dealing with events from Fall 2015. However, the article's lead hasn't caught up with that new material; it mentions over 100 appearances with Newcastle United, something not specifically mentioned in the body's text (and there shouldn't generally be things in the lead that aren't also mentioned in the body), and doesn't mention over 200 with Manchester City, which would seem to be a significant tenure.

I plan to allow the standard seven days for the issues to be addressed, though if work is in progress I will naturally extend this time. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Closing reassessment

There have been no edits to address any of the issues listed here, so I am closing this reassessment as "delisted". If anyone can be found eventually to take care of the severe and serious prevalence of "citation needed" templates, plus make sure the other issues raised have been dealt with, the article can be renominated for GA status. Best of luck going forward. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:32, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Age

Hi @Theroadislong: on the article about James Vaughan (footballer, born 1988) it says he was the youngest player to score in the premier league, also on this article it says something similar. Thoughts? TeaLover1996 (talk) 11:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

The reference is dated 2005 for James Vaughan and 2015 for James Milner. Theroadislong (talk) 11:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

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Left Back

He's playing LB regularly this season for Liverpool. the LB position has repeatedly been added to summary box as a position he's deployed in along with the existing MF... only to then be swiftly reverted. Why? It's a fact. Please explain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:708C:DA00:ED41:2BA9:94B9:21CC (talk) 16:42, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:James Milner/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: IronManCap (talk · contribs) 21:27, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I'm interested in taking up this review. For initial comments, some ref work in adding dates and authors to refs is needed; the ProveIt gadget may be helpful here. Also look at archiving all urls using IABot, and find refs for the two tags in the infobox. Expect further comments in the next 7 days.

 Done have addressed the 2 tags.

Lead

• Move ref #7 next to ref #174 in #Style of play per MOS:LEADCITE  Done
• has been used → has played - as who used him (managers, presumably) haven't been mentioned  Done
• represented his school - mention the specific school here  Done
• Not sure him being a Leeds season ticket holder is notable enough for the lead, I would cut that  Done
  • I would also merge the sentences about him supporting Leeds and joining their academy  Done
• aged only 16 - rm "only" per WP:VOICE  Done
• Add "award" after PFA Young Player of the Year  Done
• Link free transfer to Free transfer (association football) and link vice-captain to Vice-captain (association football)  Done

Early life

• Yorkshire Schools cricket team - Link Yorkshire  Done
• other clubs in the north → other clubs in Northern England  Done
• what Milner aspired to do; that is, to come through the academy and play for the first team → what Milner aspired to do, in coming through the academy and playing for the first team  Done

Club career

• One BBC source doesn't justify "widespread praise from commentators" - I would remove "widespread" at the bare minimum  Done
• the chairman of the club at the time - who?  Done
• Preferably remove instances of "even" per WP:VOICE  Done
• extreme right of the field → far right of the field  Done
• "Winger" should not be capitalised  Done

• Shortly before the end of his loan period, negotiations between Villa and Newcastle began. - needs a source  Done I have removed it as, after a look I feel it is adequately covered in the paragraph below.

• Move the second image (the free kick one) to the left so it faces the text per MOS:IMAGELOCATION  Done
  • Also link free kick and Newcastle United in the caption per WP:DUPLINK  Done
• Add commas after at 16 years and 356 days and and its new manager  Done
• Allardyce praised Milner highly - rm "highly" per MOS:PUFFERY / WP:VOICE  Done
• it was rumoured in May 2008 that he would - replace "he" with "Milner"  Done
• Link transfer request  Done

• Milner continued to impress and scored his second league goal of the season against Blackburn Rovers on 7 February and scored a free kick from outside the penalty area at home against Everton as Villa came back from a 3–1 deficit to draw 3–3 on 12 April. This sentence needs c/e and some commas, potentially split it out  Done
• Link free kick in #Aston Villa, delink in #Style of play.  Done

• Man City section is well-written.

• Vice captain → Vice-captain  Done
• Link Roma.  Done
• Add "season" after during the 2020-21  Done
• Reword the opening sentence of the last para of the L'pool section to something like Milner was not a regular starter during the 2020–21 season, amassing just 11 starts and making 26 appearances overall.  Done
• As a result he registered his first goalless season of his career. → As a result, he registered the first goalless season of his career.  Done

International career

• Add a comma after "2003 World Youth Championship"  Done
• he also set up - "also" is unnecessary here  Done
• had a penalty well saved - rm "well" per WP:VOICE  Done
• sail over the crossbar → go over the crossbar  Done

• the Netherlands → the Netherlands  Done
• however he was substituted → although he was substituted  Done
• Where he started but - rm "where"  Done
• However Milner failed to secure a starting place. Only appearing once, in the final group game against Costa Rica after England had already been eliminated. - This needs c/e and sourcing
• The paragraph beginning Milner was part of the England squad for EURO 2016. needs some serious c/e for grammar

@REDMAN 2019: Any updates on the above two points? They're the last two points to address before this passes GAN. IronManCap (talk) 14:54, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I have addressed these two points myself, and am hence passing the article. IronManCap (talk) 20:08, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Style of play

• I would move the image to the left and quote box to the right so the image faces the text per MOS:IMAGELOCATION and alternates with the last one  Done
• Link Manuel Pellegrini  Done
• who managed Milner at Manchester City, described Milner → who managed Milner at Manchester City, described him  Done
• Add a comma after in the modern game  Done
• Rm the colon in the last sentence  Done

Refs

• Mark The Daily Telegraph and The Times refs with |url-access=limited  Done
• Please be consistent if possible with |work= vs |publisher= for BBC Sport; the former is preferable per WP:ITALICWEBCITE
• Please add any missing authors using |first=, |last=, and if necessary, |author-link=

Other comments

• Career statistics and honours sections look good.
• Earwig suspects a copyvio of this website, although that is a low-level website that is almost certainly a WP:Wikipedia mirror. It also has weird line breaks within prose, almost certainly to avoid copyvio detection on its part, so no concerns here.

I asked about that website before nominating and was told that it shouldn't be a problem. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

• This script found no WP:DUPLINKs.
• Good to see MOS:NUMBER being followed.

Those are my comments. Ping me when addressed. IronManCap (talk) 13:42, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:23, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

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James Milner

• ... that James Milner (pictured) once held the title of the Premier League's youngest goal scorer?

Source: https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/who-are-the-youngest-premier-league-goalscorers-in-history and

Improved to Good Article status by REDMAN 2019 (talk). Self-nominated at 14:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC).

• The article is new enough and long enough. As a recent GA it is well cited, the hook is in the article, interesting and it has an inline ref. The nominator has 3 previous nominations so QPQ is not required. The picture is CC 2.0 and fine. Earwig is returning a problem [3]. Can you offer an explanation?Desertarun (talk) 22:03, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Also there are 2 permanent dead links. Desertarun (talk) 06:45, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Desertarun: I asked about this website prior to nominating and was told that it shouldn't be a major issue. I must have missed those dead links though. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Dead links now fixed. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@REDMAN 2019:Earwig is basically saying somebody has copied content. Either the website copied WP or WP copied the website. Do you know which it is? Desertarun (talk) 09:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know for sure to be honest. I added the ref to deal with some uncited material which I suspect was copied from the page. Weather the page had previously be created on the basis of the wiki article I don't know. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 09:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@REDMAN 2019: I personally have no doubt that this fan website copied from WP. They did the copy so quickly that they left special characters that their web browser couldn't convert and did no paragraphs etc. This is all symptomatic of them copying. To the matter at hand you should do some investigating and decide what to do a) decide they copied from WP in which case you can't use them as a reference because that is referencing WP to its own content - and find a new reference. b) decide WP copied from them in which case you would need to reword the article to get the Earwig number very low, it isn't hard, you can just add a new word here and there, or reorder words. Desertarun (talk) 09:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I checked the article history from 2008 and our content is referencing the BBC and other checkable sources for its content. The fan website is using the exact same words as us but omits mention of the BBC as the originator. So they have definitely copied from us. I've replaced the ref and I'm now passing this for DYK. Desertarun (talk) 20:02, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

To T:DYK/P4

GA Reassessment

James Milner

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: No consensus to delist. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Odd one this. Was originally listed in 2007 and delisted in 2016. Somehow, it passed GAN in 2021 despite being very low on detail for Milner's time at Liverpool.

This not only verges on violating GA criterion 3 (covering the major aspects of the topic), but also calls criterion 4 (neutrality) into question, as the article is thus biased in length and in detail towards his early career.

Eager to hear people's thoughts on this one. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't see how a slight disbalance in weight causes neutrality issues? Unless the person did loads of controversial things while in Liverpool? Not convinced it fails 3 either. There is a massive difference between broad (say at least 2 paragraphs on each issue) and comprehensive. Are there specific details you believe to be missing? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 19:19, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't exactly call it a slight disbalance in weight. There is more information on his two years at Newcastle and Aston Villa, during which he performed passably in two fairly mediocre teams, than there is in his eight years playing for one of the best teams in the world, about which far more has been written and studied. There's very little information about his role in the team, how his tenure there has been viewed, or anything beyond "on [date] Milner [played ***th game/won thing/scored goal] x20". There are huge numbers of reliable sources describing all of the above accessible with just a Google search too, which makes their omission inexplicable, to my mind. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.