Talk:Demi Lovato/Archive 6

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• DemiLovato-AngeloKritikos-04.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Image

So Demi's image on this wikipedia page has been of very poor quality. The latest one is cited as being from 2020 but it is not. It's actually from a youtube video interview that could be found here, published in 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdoWjt6bYXQ. I have updated the image with a picture from 2018 of her performing. The other pictures from 2020 are of poor quality for a wikipedia page or currently in the process of being deleted due to pending copyright issues. Pictchuimages (talk) 08:31, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree with what was stated. This image Demi Lovato 8 (41898569045).jpg ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Demi_Lovato_8_(41898569045).jpg) should remain the default picture until a high-quality more recent picture is available.HaysonDage (talk) 21:18, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

File:Demi Lovato Interview Feb 2020.png is by no means low quality or a copyright violation, so I'm implementing that. Additionally, that 2018 pic has subpar lighting with her hair (to some extent) blending into the background. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:47, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

"heart attack"

I'm doubtful that this is accurate. I think it's unlikely that an opioid overdose would cause a heart attack. I think what it should say is cardiac arrest. I have seen news sources that said cardiac arrest. A cardiac arrest is not a heart attack. This may be a common misconception. A heart attack is a myocardial infarction, not an arrest, which is when the heart stops beating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.195.144.49 (talk) 22:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Sexual assault on her

Please mention that she one got sexually assaulted by drug dealer. SourceRizosome (talk) 05:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Will definitely add it very soon. There's a lot from the documentary that deserves to be added, it's just figuring out where to put it. The whole section that goes over her overdose can probably be adjusted based off what's said in the documentary itself. Also trying to figure out where to put it, but most likely will end up adding a new section for it and people can move it if they want. QueerFilmNerd^talk 04:56, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Documentary

Demi Lovato: Dancing with the Devil should be mentioned somewhere but I'm not sure where. Here is the video, and I can't link to the source. I could but you'd need by library card number to sign in. Use this source to show that the video is important.

Okay, I see the section above. So someone knows and is working on it.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:15, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2021

Request to change profile photo to something that doesn't make Demi Lovato look mildly insane. A more natural photo, perhaps. Mailande.dewitt (talk) 00:56, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done When you have one that is not copyrighted please contact us. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 01:01, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2021

Under the 'Sexuality and relationships' section it says "In March 2021, Lovato came out as pansexual and gender fluid" and then lists two sources. In both those sources its explicitly stated that Lovato refers to herself as sexually fluid and she does not mention gender at all in either source. The word gender in that sentence should be changed to sexuality to more accurately reflect what says in the sources. 31.192.203.168 (talk) 18:25, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

 Done You were right, she said sexual fluidity (changing preferences about partners), not gender fluidity, as per both sources Trimton (talk) 01:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2021

there is incorrect info Darceycornell13 (talk) 09:39, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

In the 'Personal Life' section, under 'Sexuality and Relationships', the second paragraph contains the phrase "In the same interview, they called herself "just too queer" to date men at the time."

As Demi Lovato recently changed their pronouns, I believe 'themself' or 'themselves' would be more appropriate in this case. Sandwich 101 (talk) 08:52, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

This is simply a suggestion for the grammar. Sandwich 101 (talk) 08:54, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done QueerFilmNerd^talk 09:08, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

They was

The article contains "they was" suggesting a find-and-replace for the previous pronoun.

"They" even used as singular, has a plural verb. So it should read "they were".

This grammar rule is detailed here https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/They

I cannot edit the article myself as it's semi-protected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MangoWurzel (talk • contribs)

 Fixed. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:29, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2021 (2)

Under Lovato's Sexuality and Relationships header, there is a sentence that reads: On July 23, 2020, Lovato announced her engagement to actor Max Ehrich.[270][271]

Can someone please change "her" to "their"? Thanks for the amazingly fast and accurate editing of their pronouns! 2607:FEA8:4EDF:EA50:9928:E60F:5A0C:432F (talk) 11:01, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Looks like someone's done just that. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:30, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Image

The current infobox image of Lovato "in 2020" is actually a reupload from this 2017 video. I suggest reverting to the legitimate 2020 image as it is newer, and maybe moving the 2017 image somewhere else in the article. Everyone needs to be careful with these Vogue Taiwan reuploads. I am also mad as one of my uploads from the channel was deleted but now others are being approved by reviewers! So much inconsistency over there... Heartfox (talk) 05:30, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Just changed it here. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:43, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Songs has an RFC

Wikipedia:WikiProject Songs has an RFC for the use of radio station/networks' playlists being cited in articles. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Heartfox (talk) 00:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Small edit needed

"Spokeswoman" should be changed to "spokesperson". --81.166.107.36 (talk) 10:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed. Thanks! -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi. 11:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Confusing sentence

In the Health section (perma-link), we have this line at the end, just before the following subsection: (emphasis mine, see ahead): In 2021, Lovato revealed they had been told by doctors that they believed their 2011 bipolar diagnosis was a misdiagnosis. They stated they came out with their initial diagnosis because it put reasoning behind their actions, but later realized they "had to grow the fuck up". Due to the pronoun changes, the use of "they" in these sentences is now ambiguous. Trying to rewrite this sentence is a pain, but maybe I'm just not good at it. Based on an earlier revision, I added emphasis to tell who's who: bold for Lovato and italic for the doctors. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 18:33, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully the revisions I made here help clear things up for readers. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Using full name in lede

Since there's BLP concerns here, I've decided to be bold and remove Lovato's birth name "Demetria Devonne" from the lede. (Yes, I know I managed to fuck up the pronouns in that very edit summary. Sigh.) My rationale for this is simple: Normally when someone comes out as nonbinary and doesn't change their name, that doesn't implicate MOS:DEADNAME at all. However, in this case, we don't know whether they're comfortable being referred to as "Demetria". It's a name they have never gone by and almost never commented on even prior to coming out as nonbinary; and now that they have come out, the only name we can be sure they're okay with is the one they use: "Demi".

In light of this, I strongly feel that the article should not begin Demetria Devonne Lovato. What's not as clear is whether the name should appear at all in the lede. For now I've removed it entirely (while keeping it in the infobox and in § Early life), but the case could be made for Demi Lovato (born Demetria Devonne Lovato.... MOS:DEADNAME says A living transgender or non-binary person's former name should be included in the lead sentence of their main biographical article only if they were notable under it; introduce the name with "born" or "formerly" However, the examples given at MOS:DEADNAME are cases where the person was frequently referred to by the name in question. No one called pre-transition Elliot Page anything other than Ellen. This is a bit different. While it's reliably documented that "Demetria" is their birth name, they've never gone by it or been referred to by it in media. Thus my inclination is that it doesn't meet the standard of "if they were notable under it". Obviously someone who outwardly identified as a woman with the legal name Demetria Lovato was notable, but "Demetria Lovato" was never notable. Thus, I don't think there's a need to mention the name in the lede even in a "born Demetria" phrasing. -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi. 11:38, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

MOS:FULLNAME is clear that we should generally include full birthname in first sentence regardless of whether they were ever known by it. While we know this person is non-binary, I don't see evidence that they actually changed their name to be just "Demi" (vs being a reasonable short/nick form of "Demetria") or in some other way rejected the birthname as part of the gender change. We can't assume motive or opinion, so it might be harmful to force out their actual name that they may actually accept? That's unlike Page, who is now strictly Elliot instead of their different deadname. I don't object to removal in the lede (erring on the side of potential kindness and caution for BLP), but at least based on what we seem to know now, would oppose removal in other places. DMacks (talk) 17:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Samuel Frederick has had no problem with that. If Lovato wants to change their legal name to a neutral one, we will change it, but as of now, they (both) have not requested anyone to not use their legal names. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 17:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I feel Tbhotch hit the nail right on the head (Sam Smith is indeed a similar case), and DMacks is correct that we can't simply assume Demi has changed their legal identity solely based on a change of pronouns and gender identity. Not sure I would've removed those details from the lead so quickly without confirmation of a name change, Tamzin, but I can see where you're coming from either way. It's definitely not as straightforward as Elliot Page's transition when it comes to names used (which was obviously intended to be used instead of a deadname and I hope this user doesn't mind how I boldly went ahead and changed their error out of consideration for Page). Unless we know for sure that Lovato has legally gone through a name change, I would certainly not remove any other mentions. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 18:03, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd leave the birth name in the lede. I'm pretty sure it's possible, but rare, for someone to change their pronouns and gender identity without changing their name. As such, I think Sam Smith serves as precedent here. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 18:12, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see any indication that this is a former name. It is a strange thing to assume as a general principle, especially in this case where both "demi" and "demetria" are actually the same name – one is just a shortened version of the other – so it's not like we'd have a reason to believe their full legal name upsets them any more than their nickname/stage name does on principle or something. I'd be happy for it to be restored as per MOS:FULLNAME. (also, it's the lead). Edit: I've done just that. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 18:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I maintain my position, but respect the consensus. I do just want to note, though, that legally changing one's name is not mentioned at MOS:DEADNAME, so, if Lovato were to say, "My name is just 'Demi' now, not short for anything," that would as a matter of policy be sufficient to trigger MOS:DEADNAME. In fact, it's often not even possible to reliably tell whether someone has legally changed their name without looking through court records (which would violate WP:BLPPRIMARY). -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi. 00:06, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

We of course wouldn't need Lovato to legally change their name for us to care (see: X González). It's just that "Demi" is still just short for "Demetria"; it's the same (traditionally girl's) name, so I don't think we really have any reason to believe it upsets them in a MOS:DEADNAME way in its full form vs. the shortened form unless they actually say so. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 07:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I was just making the point because two people had implied that a legal name change was required. (Also, "lede" forever! :P ) -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi.

Semi-protected edit request on 22 May 2021

Relatives : Pablo (Character on the show 'The Backyardigans') CarlaB27 (talk) 04:51, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. If this is in-universe lore or something, please provide a citation to a reliable source saying so. -- Tamzin (she/they, no pref.) | o toki tawa mi. 07:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

A nice thank you

I just decided to give thanks to the people who changed Demi's pronouns. Heroes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryan Huang-01 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Ryan Huang-01, as one of the people who went around and edited them (amongst the many edit conflicts), its no big deal! I appreciate that the wikipedia community always changes them so fast. QueerFilmNerd^talk 23:29, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

correct grammar mistake in the Early life and career beginnings

In the second sentence of the Early life and career beginnings section of the article, change the first word they into she, as the article seems to suggest that Demi and her parents have an older sister named Dallas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebany89 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done as proposed. People, understand, this is Wikipedia, not your personal blog. We won't use gendered pronouns solely because of your personal views on gender. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 17:17, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Talkpage editnotice

Given how many edit requests we get along these lines, would anyone object to me adding the following editnotice to this talk page? Editors would see it when editing this page or creating a new section. It would not show up when editing the article itself (since, post-ECP, we haven't had any real issues there). Feel free to copy-edit the proposed wording. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 17:36, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

• I support it on principle, but new editors tend to ignore edit notices altogether. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:04, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

• I support it even though I expect the benefit will be minor. It might help one or two genuinely confused people to avoid making fools of themselves, which is beneficial for everybody. Of course, not everybody will pay attention and the trolls won't take any notice at all because they already know what they are doing wrong and they are doing it deliberately because that is what trolls do. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:26, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
• @DanielRigal, that's my thinking exactly. Even if things like these don't deter many people, they at least make it easier to sort out good-faith and bad-faith requests. I've gone ahead and created the editnotice at Template:Editnotices/Page/Talk:Demi Lovato. It should show up when anyone edits this talk page. Editnotices are restricted to admins, template editors, and page movers, so if anyone here has any concerns about the wording, feel free to ping me. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 19:14, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Something may be wrong

I read this article and it appears that the pronouns don't seem to make sense. It's using pronouns they, their, they're, etc. Telling by the use of those pronouns, the article suggests that there is more than one Demi Lovato. There is only one Demi Lovato, therefore pronoun usage should be singular female pronouns (since she's female), not pronouns that describe more than one thing. CanadianAndNYer (talk) 04:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Please see the notes at the top of the page. 1) Lovato is not female; they're non-binary. (Some non-binary people identify as non-binary female or non-binary male, but to my knowledge they do not.) 2) They request that people refer to them with they/them pronouns, so we do. The singular they is well-documented in English going back before Chaucer, so there's no grammatical issue there. For more information, you can see MOS:GENDERID in our Manual of Style. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 04:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

You said “she”. Oops :’)))). See, even your brain doesn’t accept it. “Singular they” is used instead of “he or she” in certain contexts for brevity. Never has the “singular they” been used intentionally by one person. And reading this article makes it extremely confusing to understand what exactly it’s trying to say sometimes. MatthewS. (talk) 02:55, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

@MatthewS.: I've corrected my mistake. Always takes a little time to get the hang of it when someone changes pronouns. As to the rest of your comment, if you'd like to remove MOS:GENDERID, please take that up at WT:MOSBIO, although please read past discussions there first. -- Tamzin (she/they) | o toki tawa mi. 03:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 July 2021

Add "Category:People interviewed on the Eric Andre Show"; she has been interviewed on said show. KraftxPunk (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Category is under consideration for deletion currently. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 01:33, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Clarifying pronoun usage

A friend of mine pointed out (and I agree) that the extensive and consistent use of "they" and "their" in this article can be confusing to someone reading it who does not already know about non-binary pronoun usage. The motivation for its use is explained later in the article ("On May 19, 2021, Lovato publicly came out as non-binary and announced their decision to officially change their gender pronouns to they/them"), but "their" as a plural possessive will be most people's initial interpretation. Is there any appropriate way to add an explanatory sentence near the top that clarifies the motivation for the pronoun usage? (I could do it, but it seems like it might have edit war potential, so I'd rather have someone currently working on the article make that change.) Finney1234 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@Finney1234: It is likely a sentence discussing Lovato's pronouns in the lead would be undue weight, and as you note, their pronouns are already mentioned in the article body. If there are any sentences that are currently worded such that the pronouns in the sentence are ambiguous in regards to what they refer to, then feel free to reword them to make their meanings clearer. GreenComputer (talk) 17:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 July 2021

First sentense ends with 'actor'. I think Demi Lovato is an actress. 46.123.240.101 (talk) 20:18, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Actor is a general neutral term. Also see above for discussion on their pronouns. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 August 2021

Please add this link to the "See also" section: List of most-followed artists on Spotify. Like other social networks.--Hamedkazemi2 (talk) 19:24, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:27, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Rewording needed to avoid misgendering

The section 2011–2012: Unbroken and The X Factor includes the following sentence about the song "Give Your Heart a Break":

"It also became the longest climb by a female artist to reach No. 1 in the Pop Songs chart history, until 2019, when Halsey's feature on "Eastside" broke the record."

I understand the significance of this record, but in its current form, the sentence is calling Demi female when they are non-binary; moreover, while I'm aware that Halsey has not publicly identified as non-binary, the fact that they use both she/her and they/them pronouns kind of makes me question the sentence as a whole. If it is to remain in the article, I believe it should be reworded to avoid misgendering the people involved; this isn't an award with a name that can't be changed, unlike Demi's Billboard Women in Music Rulebreaker Award from 2015. Bizarre Bizarre^{Talk modern to me} 07:11, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

The significance of the record is that at the time of it happening Demi was not publicly out as non-binary and identified as (to the public's knowledge) a woman. That is why they were awarded the title because the fact that they identified as a woman was important to the record. Despite that, the title is still technically correct because Demi was assigned female at birth, so it may just be better to scrap the word "female" in favor of "woman" to indicate gender identity. While I understand that calling Demi a woman would be misgendering, I'm not sure if this particular case falls under that because it is speaking about something that happened before they came out and is pertinent to their gender, but we would have to consult Demi, the Wikipedia people, or at least someone who is non-binary. Same thing with Halsey. VictorBaxter (talk) 22:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2021

Hello, I would like to update Demi Lovatos Wikipedia picture to a more recent photo please. 24.113.122.214 (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide an image with an acceptable license. We can not use copyrighted images taken from the web. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:43, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Grammar mistakes

If you look at the very bottom of Demi lovato’s personal life she is called “they” instead of “her” it’s really bad grammar. CallOfDutyFan101 (talk) 16:48, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Well it’s not really mistakes hut the person that wrote it misgendered Demi Lovato CallOfDutyFan101 (talk) 16:49, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Oh never mind I didn’t read up ahead ignore my request my apologies CallOfDutyFan101 (talk) 16:50, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Instruments

Demi also plays the piano and guitar. Not sure if a specific source is needed to add that to her Infobox, but many videos can be easily found of her playing those instruments. For example: Guitar, Piano — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.194.154 (talk) 15:10, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

per Template:Infobox musical artist: "Instruments listed in the infobox should be limited to only those that the artist is primarily known for using. The instruments infobox parameter is not intended as a WP:COATRACK for every instrument the subject has ever used."

idk if Lovato plays them often enough for the instruments to be included --FMSky (talk) 20:28, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2021

“Their” is supposed to be “she” 68.6.201.65 (talk) 02:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. Please see this notice, which is supposed to show up when you edit this page (but may not on some browsers). -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 02:48, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Awfully bad writing

In the "Relationships" section, we have Lovato dated singer Trace Cyrus in 2009. They briefly dated their Camp Rock co-star Joe Jonas in 2010 . Does this mean that both Lovato and Cyrus dated Jonas? It's very unclear and needs to be rewritten so we can see who went out with whom. G7mzh (talk) 13:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

 Fixed This article is about Lovato, anyway. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

'Their'?

Their/They? What! The article should be She/Her? 2A00:23C5:C30B:301:F91F:F66C:BFB:5C6 (talk) 03:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

They/them is correct. This is explained in the "Sexuality, gender and relationships" section of the article, as well as in past discussions on this talk page. clpo13_(talk)

Confusing sentence structure due to alt. pronouns

"Lovato's parents divorced in mid-1994, shortly after their second birthday"

should be something like

"Lovato's parents divorced in mid-1994, shortly after Demi's second birthday" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tytygh55 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Good idea.  Fixed SchreiberBike | ⌨  00:11, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Protection

Why is this article so protected? There are considerably bigger historical figures and celebrities than Demi that can be edited by smaller editors. This article should be shifted a class down. There's no reason why more novice editors can't add factual information. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

This article is extended confirmed protected because it has been severely vandalized every time the protection expires. This has gone on for 13 years. Protection is based on the history of the vandalism not on the perceived historical importance of the topic of the article. Cullen328 (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Anfwepgnrwfinre: there's been a lot of disruption on this article, particularly regarding Lovato's gender identity and pronouns. Extended-confirmed protection is authorized as a remedy for persistent disruption in this topic area, per WP:ARBGSDS, if semi-protection has proven inadequate. It's not permanent, though; the current level of protection will expire in May 2022. clpo13_(talk) 19:25, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Got it. I can understand why people would vandalize a page like this. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 23:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 December 2021

Quick edit request. It says that Lovato had "anorexia (binge type)". There is no such thing. That would be categorized as bulimia, since there is bingeing and purging. If Lovato has admitted to engaging in these behaviors. However, if it's solely bingeing it's BED (Binge Eating disorder), and that is not the case with Demi Lovato. That being said, I would appreciate that getting edited. There is a lot of misconceptions about eating disorders... Plus, the paragraph below talks about her bulimia. 179.56.56.245 (talk) 19:06, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree. This article is weirdly protected, and more people should be able to edit. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done Changed it to bulimia nervosa, which matches the sourcing. The reason the article is protected is due to severe disruption around their non-binary gender. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. There's a lot of vandals. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 23:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 December 2021

My request is that the categories "American film actors", "American voice actors", and "LGBT actors from the United States" be added to the Demi Lovato article. Demi Lovato has acted in films and they voiced Smurfette in Smurfs: The Lost Village and Lenore Quinonez in Charming. StephanTheAnimator (talk) 09:39, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done DarthFlappy 14:21, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Help me understand

I find it strange and confusing to read, "they" where it should be, "she". Is this due to an official Wikipedia policy? If so, what?-115.96.183.204 (talk) 18:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID. Wikipedia respects the most recently expressed gender identity of all persons. Newimpartial (talk) 18:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. I'll just add that singular they seems odd the first time you encounter it but it is really quite easy to get used to. It doesn't take long before you almost stop noticing it. It is far better than using the wrong pronoun and thereby giving the readers incorrect information. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:33, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Would it be sensible to find a way to mention the non-binary identity in the first or second paragraph, so that readers have a chance of understanding the they/theirs that follow? At the moment the explanation is deep into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.226.50 (talk) 21:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I've seen instances where even when it wasn't mentioned early there was a small note on the first pronoun use noting why the specific pronoun was used, but I think that's typically on articles where the subject is comfortable with more than one set of pronouns and the note is concerning the fact the article uses just one for consistency. (See Elliot Page (he/they, article uses he), Noelle Stevenson (any pronouns, article uses they), or Rebecca Sugar (she/they, article uses she in part because sources more often use she).) I don't think "they" is terribly hard to understand even without the mention of their nonbinary identity or their pronouns being related to it. - Purplewowies (talk) 05:32, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that the article isn’t hard to understand, for two reasons: 1) There are multiple instances of grammatical ambiguity where plural and singular contexts are mixed. The reader may be able to tolerate these if they know to expect them. 2) Demi was famous for years as “she”, and the lead photo is obviously female, so the reader is primed to expect “she”, not “they”. I think both these points could be resolved by a small reminder up front. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.226.50 (talk) 08:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Confusing constructions with multiple "they" referring to different parties might be better handled by rephrasing to un-pronoun one of the parties. I know this was the case in the past (for instance, a discussion about a sentence like that exists in this page's archives, where "their" could refer to Demi or their parents (but clearly was referring to Demi, as Demi's parents could not have been age 2 at the time they divorced), and it was resolved by changing "their" to "Demi's"). Also, this may be splitting hairs, but "the lead photo is obviously female" is a function of how an individual reader receives said photo and isn't necessarily true. Take, for instance, File:Rebecca Sugar Peabody Awards.jpg (I keep bringing up Rebecca Sugar but that's largely because I'm a bit more knowledgeable of Sugar's history); there are some aspects of this photo that might be received as "female" stereotypically perhaps (i.e. long hair, dress, stuff like that), but its subject was an out nonbinary person at that point.

I was just saying I didn't think it was confusing; I'm not saying it wouldn't necessarily be worth mentioning in the lead. (In fact, though this is a bit WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS which sometimes has its merits but isn't always the best argument in a discussion (maybe especially when this article is GA class and the compared articles are all B and C? IDK), to use the three examples in my last reply, all three leads mention their gender identity in some context (Page's specifically addressing coming out in its own short passage, Sugar's mentions it in a more offhand way as if it's a fact more than an event, and Stevenson's as part of a sentence noting its influence on some of their works).) At any rate, there doesn't appear to be prior consensus on this article's talk page that goes against a mention in the lead. - Purplewowies (talk) 18:34, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

African ancestry

Lovato has 1% of African ancestry. Please mention this in the article or at least include her in the following categories "American people of African descent", "20th-century African-American people" and "21st-century African-American people"Jmouritz127 (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

1% of ancestry is basically nothing, and these sorts of DNA tests are not as accurate or meaningful as they like to pretend, so this is just insubstantial celebrity trivia. We will not be including them in any of those categories. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Your answer is very disrespectful of someone's ancestry and racial background. Unless you have evidence that proves she is not black or that the test is blatantly wrong, she is black according to the test results. No matter how small the percentage is, she is shown to be of African descent.Jmouritz127 (talk) 22:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The "trace regions" indicator is also present for the less than 1% Asian part of their results, which, like the 1% African bit, feels like undue weight to include here unless there's a lot more to what it represents to Demi than the tweet going "hey look at my cool results!" (Also, since you raised being respectful or not, you might like knowing that Demi uses they/them pronouns and not she/her ones.) - Purplewowies (talk) 22:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 January 2022

I suggest that when referring to "Skyscraper", we change the sentence "It also became the longest climb by a female artist to reach No. 1 in the Pop Songs chart history, [...]." It may be a little confusing to readers since Demi Lovato is now out as non-binary, so I suggest that we add "It also became the longest climb by a female artist to reach No. 1 in the Pop Songs chart history (since Lovato identified as female at the time), [...]." A tooltip could also serve this purpose to briefly explain that this is a factoid in reference to their previous gender identity. Ratatouille's Monster (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 07:48, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Demi Lovato

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

All the pronouns are plural eg. They instead of She 75.71.104.22 (talk) 10:19, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

That's because Lovato uses singular they. - Purplewowies (talk) 03:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

singular they is not grammatically correct when we are referring to a specific individual whom we know of; singular they's refer to people we are not sure of their identity - for example "someone left their car door open". Or, they refer to someone in context of their job ie. "The journalist did not include bias in their report". But in the case of a human individual that we are directly referring to by name, "They" does not make sense. Sure, Wikipedia can make whatever rules they want and refer to someone as "they" even though it is grammatically incorrect, but does Wikipedia also bow to the wishes of non-cis people who want to be referred to as xe/xem or ze/zir, or doll? Or do the standards stop at they/them? https://pronoun.fandom.com/wiki/Dollself - 108.168.8.206 (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

If you're trying to make a point here, using Fandom isn't going to help. CUPIDICAE💕 19:07, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I was simply using that link to prove genders such as "dollself" exist. The rest of my statement was in no relation to that though, so an acknowledgement of the main point of what I was saying would be welcome - the fact that i) singular they is not grammatically correct when referring to a specific, known person, and ii) if Wikipedia extends pronoun use to genders outside of he/she/they. 108.168.8.206 (talk) 21:21, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The status of neopronouns on Wikipedia is a matter of some debate but to "acknowledge" your first point, you are wrong about the singular they. In the 21st century, RS on grammar accept that the singular they for a known, specific person is, in fact, a feature of English grammar. Newimpartial (talk) 21:55, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2022

Please change the picture 2603:6081:933C:B43F:61AB:5EBE:8827:25C5 (talk) 01:44, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 01:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Demi Lovato 2022 (cropped).jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:52, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Edit request 5 August 2022 - PREFERRED PRONOUNS OF DEMI LOVATO

I think the extended repetition of their last name in every single sentence is largely unnecessary and even annoying. I don't understand the issue behind the refusal to use the preferred pronouns of the subject of this BLP. Paolo Calucci (talk) 16:34, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done - see discussion above this. PRAXIDICAE🌈 16:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Demi using female pronouns again

On her instagram bio, she added she/her pronouns to the list of preferred pronouns. I think the article should be reverted to gendered pronouns to avoid the confusion that comes with using they/them to refer to a single person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.194.154 (talk) 20:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

What confusion? We use they/them whenever an individual prefers these pronouns to reflect their gender identity, and I haven't seen any confusion. Newimpartial (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

they/them for an individual is improper grammar. 165.89.30.1 (talk) 19:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

they/them referring to an individual is universally accepted English grammar and dates as far back as the 14th century: Singular they

Please also refer to style guidelines that encourage the use of desired pronouns despite any opinions on grammatical appropriateness: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity

More information also available in Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language in Wikipedia policies PDXBart (talk) 12:08, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

@PDXBart incorrect. That is possessive they/them not singular talking to the person. 71.50.61.134 (talk) 20:41, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Nobody uses they/them when talking to a person in English. We use "you". Newimpartial (talk) 21:25, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Not a forum EvergreenFir (talk) 04:29, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
No, "we" don't. It's confusing to every normal person because you don't use plural pronouns for individuals. Don't be disingenous. SneedPoster321 (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC) "We" native English speakers certainly do - the Singular they has been around for hundreds of years. Newimpartial (talk) 02:59, 29 April 2022 (UTC) @SneedPoster321: If you disagree with our policies, this is not the website for you. (CC) Tbhotch™ 03:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC) No, it is the website for me. Your insistence on elevating unscientific political ideologies over neutrality is a personal problem, even if you have the numbers to enforce it over the entire site due to the rampant left wing biases of editors and admins. If you expect zero dissent, you will be continually disappointed. SneedPoster321 (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC) This removal indicates that you read the sanctions and that you understand them. (CC) Tbhotch™ 03:18, 29 April 2022 (UTC) I'm sorry you felt the need to be childish over your ideological biases getting pointed out. SneedPoster321 (talk) 04:08, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I see they/them is still their primary pronouns on their bio, I'm not sure if it's intentional the order, but she/her is probably their auxiliary pronoun, meaning singular they is still their preferred pronoun. An alternative is using one/one's, which is not gendered either and a gender omission (useful for people who is nullpronominal/use no pronouns). In the past, I saw Demi put only they/them to their profile, but once they said they don't mind being misgendered as well. Another way to refer to Lovato is using Demi's name. Hope that helps. — Tazuco ^(talk) 21:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Instagram is a unreliable source and should not be used as a source especially on controversial things like pronouns Qwv (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Not true in this case. Lovato's Instagram would absolutely be an acceptable source for this type of fact, per WP:BLPSELFPUB. IronGargoyle (talk) 16:44, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything confusing about using they/them as their primary pronoun. Them adding "she" to their bio essentially means that they don't mind being referred to with she/her pronouns, but that doesn't mean people should just ignore the they/them part of it. I personally see no reason to change the page, especially since it seems that they/them is their primary pronoun still. I say we keep it the way it is unless they come out and say they no longer wish to use they/them. QueerFilmNerd^talk 20:37, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree. If they prioritise "they" then we should say "they". If they change this later then we can change the article later. For now, it should stay as it is. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:02, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Please change 'they/them/their' to 'she/her'.

I personnally don't see a reason NOT to change it. There are more cons to keeping the plurar 'they/them' in the article. The fact is, it DOES cause confusion. When speaking of her with a music band for instance, who are you refering to by saying 'they'? the whole music band or just her? She personnally added the pronouns she/her, the order has not been confirmed to have any sort of significance, nor has she insisted people call her 'they'. The fact is, there is nothing wrong calling her with 'she/her' pronouns, it gives clarity to the article and STILL respects her wishes. Emli89 (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Demi lists they/them first suggesting they are the preferred pronouns (that's what I do myself). There's no reason to move them back. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:12, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

(e-c) One reason not to change it is that there is no reason to change it: they/them are standard pronouns for individuals to choose in English, Demi has in fact chosen they/them, and they have not un-chosen those pronouns by also listing she/her on Instagram. If anything, they/them is *less* confusing to use for a genderqueer person than she/her, in terms of WP:ASTONISH, etc. And, perhaps most importantly, by now most of the Lovato-related RS since the initial pronoun preference was announced use they/them; if that eventually, changes, we can always revisit the usage in this article at that point. Newimpartial (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing surprising about refering to a woman with 'she/her', there is nobody on earth who be confused about that lol. Also, there is no proof that the order in which the pronouns are written have any sort of importance, in fact, one could argue that she first changed her mind about the pronouns and listed only 'they/them', and then changed her mind again to add 'she/her' which she just added at the end of the line, as anyone would. The order has not been proven to have importance, and assuming otherwise is making assumptions in Demi's place. What pronouns are her favorite in the list she wrote is not our business. However, [[1]] states that 'Make your article accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible' , misusing the pronouns is making the article less clear, more confusing in a variety of scenarios and unnecessary. In that case, the reader has to do his own research in order to confirm who you are refering to ( i.e. the music band or demi?) which also violates the Wikipedia:Writing better articles#State the obvious guidelines. This is an article written in formal language, you have to stay concise, prioritise the avoidance of confusion and state clearly the subject of each sentence.

Remember, you should not follow your personnal experiences when deciding how to edit an article Wikipedia:Avoiding common mistakes, your judgement on whether the order of pronouns on instagram has any importance at all is not proven. That is your personnal experience, and mine says otherwise.

Take a look at this sentence for example: Lovato's fifth and sixth albums, Confident (2015) and Tell Me You Love Me (2017), infused soul and mature themes; they earned a Grammy Award nomination for Confident, while "Sorry Not Sorry", the lead single from Tell Me You Love Me, became their highest-charting single in the U.S., reaching number six.

It's too long, it is confusing because the use of plural in the sentence makes it so that one has to reread in order to understand what is attributed to which album...

Now look at this one : Lovato has an older full sister named Dallas; a younger maternal half-sister, actress Madison De La Garza; and an older paternal half-sister, Amber, whom they first spoke to when they were twenty years old.

At first glance it is confusing whether 'they' refers to multiple members of the family or just Demi herself. Again, one has to reread it in order to understan clearly the meaning.

Again, look at this : Their mother is of English and Irish descent. They have been vocal about their abusive and strained relationship with their father and once stated, "He was mean, but he wanted to be a good person.

Is 'they' refering to the mother-daughter duo or just Demi ?

There is an extremely long list of such sentences, that are not concise, do not convey meaning in the most direct and simple way. That is not the academic way of writing. Also, Demi has only stated they/them as pronouns, not their. One could argue that their is not appropriate either. Emli89 (talk) 18:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

If you are using your own, apparently limited, literacy in 21st-century English as a basis to argue that the singular they is confusing and should be avoided - well, I'm afraid you're going to need a more convincing argument. The idea that this article, and others using the singular they, are misusing the pronouns is fairly WP:EXTRAORDINARY in 2022 and would require something more than an editor's strongly held personal opinion / private language to back it up. Newimpartial (talk) 18:18, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

This is not a blog, it's an article that has to conform to scientific-style writing, emphasing concise , clear manner of writing. 2022 trends have nothing to do with it and throwing poorly chosen insults at others will not solve this issue or make you more likeable to gen z. The fact is, in order to accomodate this trend the article has been made significantly longer and less clear. The fact that you do not even consider the plenty of examples I have provided is evidence that you strongly bring in your personnal opinions in evaluating constructive criticism. Demi herself has agreed to use of she/her pronouns. Those DO make the article better, and there are no reasons not to make use of it to better the article. Emli89 (talk) 18:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Please read MOS:GENDERID, singular they and preferred pronoun. The use of the singular they in English as a preferred pronoun is by now an established practice, and the arguments that "it is confusing" or "it isn't the grammar I was taught" don't really have any relevance to WP policy or practice. MOS:GENDERID, and WP:V, are what matter in this situation, and both mandate the use of "they" in this article based on the current state of the sources. Newimpartial (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Emli89: I really don't see a point in changing her pronouns in the article. It's a lot more than just changing the words in this article, there's dozens of articles on Demi that would need to have a change in pronouns, for a change that in the end is purely cosmetic. If she says she only wants to go by she/her at some point in the future, that would justify the change, but now it's unnecessary. --VersaceSpace 🌃 18:23, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

You're saying, because it would take too much effort, you won't do it and will refuse to consider any kind of logical argument ? You should have started with that... What's the point of talk pages and guidelines then ?

I would've even offered to help with the editing if you asked. Emli89 (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Those first two examples are fairly long and complex sentences. To be "concise, clear", one might want to break each into two sentences, which would allow using Lovato's name as the subject or at least clarifying the antecedent by talking about one topic at a time. The first example mixes the concepts of themese and charting; the second example mixes a list of identities with some additional details about one of them. DMacks (talk) 18:32, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Demi's pronouns are not a significant aspect of the problems with either of those examples. Newimpartial (talk) 19:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Emli89, you ain't gonna win this argument. There's more editors 'here', who support the usage of "They/them", than don't. Personally, if it were up to me? We'd be only using the pronouns "He/she" or "Him/her", etc. But, it's not up to me, so you just don't get upset about it & you don't risk getting blocked over it. GoodDay (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Your input on non-binary inclusion in Wikipedia was not needed, much less on the talk page of a biography of a non-binary person. But yes, Emli89, I would also advise you to stop fighting for this to happen, because the path of this discussion (as well as the one at ANI) is very clear. --VersaceSpace 🌃 00:17, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I've already accepted that fact. I said as such in the other thread as well. My only remaining issue is the personnal insult from Newimpartial. I merely wish for an apology. Emli89 (talk) 01:45, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I would like to object to the current formulation of the footnote, as I do not believe that anything in what Demi said indicates a complete abandonment of they/them pronouns and Instagram still lists they/them/she/her. I think that a formulation similar to the one on Judith Butler's article (along the lines of "Lovato uses they/them and she/her pronouns, but in August 2022 expressed a preference for the latter.") would respect recent developments while not completely ignoring they/them. Bizarre Bizarre^{Talk modern to me} 12:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Change/edit august 14 2022

Demi Lovato uses they/them pronouns change their pronouns to they/them 2607:FEA8:BE22:5D00:D104:2079:9F50:5F16 (talk) 15:38, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see above discussion Cannolis (talk) 18:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2022

Spelling errors. Lboije8fuhw (talk) 12:43, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done @Lboije8fuhw: Please be more specific. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 12:47, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Your edit filter hits make it clear that you intended to vandalise the article. Further such attempts will result in an indefinite block. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:52, 14 August 2022 (UTC)