Talk:Adi Shankara

Prediction of Adi Shankaracharya .

@Joshua Jonathan Plz read this,

Another interesting prediction is that Lord Shiva, one of the great demigods, would appear in Kali-yuga as Shankaracharya. In the Padma Purana (6.236.5-12) Shiva explains to his wife, Parvati, that he will appear in the age of Kali to proclaim that the Buddhist doctrine is a false religion and illusory. He also said that he would propound the mayavada or impersonalist philosophy, emphasizing the indefinable nature of the Brahman, the great, impersonal spiritual force. He explained, "The philosophy of Maya (mayavada) is a wicked doctrine and is pseudo-Buddhist. In the form of a brahmana, I proclaim this doctrine in Kali-yuga. It makes the words of the holy Vedic texts meaningless and is condemned in the world. In this doctrine it recommends giving up one's duties of life [in order to be free of karma], which is said to be religiousness for those who have fallen from their duties. I will propound the identity of the Supreme Soul and the individual soul to be the [one and the same] Brahman in nature, without qualities. O goddess, I have conceived this mayavada (impersonalist) doctrine, which resembles a purport of the Ve das, for deluding people in this age of Kali [to mislead them toward atheism by denying the personal form of God]." 2409:4071:2104:311C:827B:8D73:BE76:E78 (talk) 17:18, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

That part is highly interpolated .that part of padma puran is. considered interpolated....Even there is written demon name madhu will come to say against shiva ......these type of thing all are interpolated ....In padma puran the deluding incarnation is said for vaam. Margi kapalik because there is written he will carry bone and ashes ...iskcon guys funny Redop1 (talk) 07:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

"Interpolation" the magic wand of master handwavers used to support their position. 67.204.247.30 (talk) 20:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 August 2024

In the first line of article -

Edit - "...Indian Vedic Scholar and Teacher of Advaita Vedanta..." to "...Indian Philosopher, Vedic Scholar and Teacher of Advaita Vedanta..." DiptenK (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks. Rasnaboy (talk) 12:33, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan I saw you reverted Rasnaboy's edit for this request for adding "Philosopher". I sort of agree with this request to add "philosopher" - isn't Shankara considered a "philosopher" based on definition of a "philosopher"? - Assuming when you say "..with little original thought" refers to general view that Shankara's thought were also by others before him, but Shankara is the key in synthesizing these ideas, giving Advaita Vedanta. He also wrote commentaries on the three key texts. I think he refuted/debated/challenged other Indian philosophical thoughts (Mimamsa, Buddhism etc) at that time? In short, he may not be the "innovator", but I guess defender/expander/clarifier? Asteramellus (talk) 13:40, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

What's the defiition of a philosopher? Philosophy to which philosopher redirects, says:

Philosophy ('love of wisdom' in Ancient Greek) is a systematic study of general and fundamental questions concerning topics like existence, reason, knowledge, value, mind, and language. It is a rational and critical inquiry that reflects on its own methods and assumptions.

What Shankara did was commenting on Upanishadic texts, referring to commentators before him. Compare this text in the article:

Mayeda further notes that Shankara was primarily concerned with moksha, "and not with the establishment of a complete system of philosophy or theology,"[155] following Potter, who qualifies Shankara as a "speculative philosopher."[156] Lipner notes that Shankara's "main literary approach was commentarial and hence perforce disjointed rather than procedurally systematic [...] though a systematic philosophy can be derived from Samkara's thought."[157]

So, yes, Potter calls him a philosopher, but a "speculative philosopher." But Merriam-Ebster has an interesting definition, which you could use:

1. a person who seeks wisdom or enlightenment : scholar, thinker; a student of philosophy
2. a person whose philosophical perspective makes meeting trouble with equanimity easier; an expounder of a theory in a particular area of experience
one who philosophizes

I don't know if Shankara is the "key" in synthesizing Advaita ideas; he only came to be regarded so centuries centuries after his death, ironically by a strand of Advaita which incorporated yogic ideas in their writings, simething Shankara opposed. What he's especially 'influential' for is as an iconic defender of traditional Hinduism - but this, too, is a portrait which emerged only centuries later. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:00, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan yes thanks - did read that definition in Merriam-Webster before I replied earlier.

Regarding what you have said, I have not come across sources that call Sankara "speculative philosopher" - I will read this source and the sources under that section for "Systematizer of Advaita" later when I have time – so I can't "speculate" to say why Potter uses those words. I assumed it is a common knowledge in academia that Shankara is a philosopher. Anyway, I guess instead of us cherry-picking sources for one side or the other and spending time digging through sources to prove something so trivial, I want to see what other editors here says, and what @Rasnaboy thinks. Also, just for reference here - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says "Sankara was an exegete, philosopher, and teacher". It also says "Nonetheless, he was an original philosopher who constructed novel arguments". Asteramellus (talk) 18:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, and he was the greatest advaitin of all time etc. Looks like something was lost on Neil Dalal; he's repeating all the cliches. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

@Asteramellus The person removing 'philosopher' has a history of edits on Hinduism and related topics with inflammatory edits and remarks. Sometimes they cherry-pick low-quality sources and quotes, and sometimes they rely solely on their own understanding of the subject, as seen here. The continuous POV pushing and stubbornness to engage in edit wars confidently on Hinduism-related topics, Indo-Aryan migration-related topics, South Asia-related topics, etc., suggest that the person might have strong backing (or at least they think so). Their extreme anti-Brahmin bigotry was also exposed in the past when they commented on Brahmins being hungry all the time and performing pujas for others just to eat food. Not only that, the user attempts to insert Hindu nationalism and Hindutva anywhere there is opposition to their views or worldview, as if labeling someone a Hindu nationalist would diminish their credibility. They are currently also engaged in other POV pushing on the Michael Witzel page. This person should be banned from all India and Hinduism-related topics. Every day there is a slow edit war and civil POV pushing on pages related to these topics. Unilateral decisions are being made everywhere.. 2409:4089:AD98:4C14:BDEF:534D:4327:107C (talk) 01:10, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, the IP again, oblivious of the endless right-wing pov-pushing on India-related pages. Asteramellus, let me explain a little bit more. This narrative of Shankara being the greatest Indian philosopher is a cliche, repeated over and over again. As scholars have explained, he wasn't that influential in his own time; it was only around 1400, in the Vijanagara-empire, that he was chosen as an emblem of Hindu-religiosity and values. That's where his main attraction lies. This narrative was picked-up by western scholars in the 19th century who wanted to chart Indian religiosity (usefull knowledge when you have to suppress conquered people), and were mostly informed by Brahmins; it was further reinforced by Indian nationalists and neo-Vedantins, who used this one-sided image against Christianity: a hero on a par with Christian dominance.
Think about it: what this narrative also says is that, in the 1200 years following Shankara, nothing comparable to Shankara's works was produced. With other words: India declined, no present author is as smart or good as Shankara. That's how we want to look at India? To make a comparison: have you ever read "Talks with Ramana Maharshi"? A dazzling knowledge of Indian 'mystical' literature, from all kinds, not just Advaita Vedanta. But incomparable to Shankara, according to this narrative.
If I'm cynical, I'd say that some people insist on the predicate "philosopher" to make Shankara comparable to western philosophy - with western philosophy implicitly taken as the measure-stick. What a pity.... Define Indian thought on it's own merits; where in western thought do we find meditation and yoga? To speak for myself: I have a few dozen books on western philosophy, but hundreds on Buddhism, Hinduism and meditation.
Regarding Shankara's originality, or the lack thereof, what strikes me as original in his writings are his statements on the liberative power of (understanding) the mahavakyas; that's where I sense a personal 'power', experience. Not in his commentaries; the commentaries on the Upanishads are uninspiring... But in his emphasis on direct apprehension he's elevated - direct apprehension, which is in contradiction with Advaita Vedanta lore! Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:28, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Asteramellus: I've been thinking further over 'philospher yes or no', and I suddenly realized that usually we associate 'philosopher' with 'sustained rational thought to arrive at a logical conclusion'. That's typically not the essence of what Skankara did; what he did was explaining and interpreting sacred texts, to arrive at an intuitive insight of Brahman. Now, there may be an implicit assumption that 'sustained rational thought' is better, but here the opposite seems to be true: liberating insight is attained by intuitive insight. When we try to frame Shankara in the (supposedly!) suoerior western frame, we actually lose sight of what he did and of the means to emulate his endeavors. That may make sense in a culture war where Shankara is the prototypcal Indian spiritual hero, but it does not make sense in terms of this spirituality itself. By 'elevating' him to the status of 'philosopher', we actually lose Shankara himself... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan Thanks so much for the thoughts here and sorry for not getting back sooner. I guess it's like many sanskrit terms which don't have exact translations. But going back to the usage of "Philosopher", it seems it is quite commonly used for many such "ancient" scholars. e.g. look at Dharmakirti : "Dharmakīrti, a profound and rigorous philosopher of Indian Buddhism" and Sriharsa: "Śrīharṣa was an Indian philosopher and poet" and "..The Indian philosopher Śaṃkara". Asteramellus (talk) 21:08, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

@Asteramellus: I guess we should add it, given Merriam-Webster's first definition: 'a seeker of wisdom, enlightenment'. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 01:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

I simply want to add the birthplace of the person. Also want to add the fact that the date of Adi Shankara is a matter of dispute as far as history is concerned.

Dating Adi Shankaracharya is based almost entirely of relative dating methods, but the date with who his dates are relatively fixed itself are disputed. Porulubayasiga (talk) 14:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

There's already an explanatory note for the birth- and death-date. With which date are his dates fixed? And the actual birthplace, or the legendary birthplace? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 15:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This reply could've been much more detailed, however, I wish to be as concise as possible.

Surēśvara, a contemporary and direct discile of Śrī Ādi Śaṅkarāćārya (hereby referred to as ASA), refers to him as Drāviḍa. A clear reference that indicates that ASA was most defntely fom the geographic region of what is popularly known as "Tamiḻakam". [1]

Ćitsukha, a contemporary of of ASA, tells us that ASA's native was situated in th modern day Indian state of Kerala. This was also where ASA was born, we're told. [2]

Tradition and practically all later biographies are universally consistent is asserting that ASAP was indeed a native of Tamiḻakam. (A majority of them state that he was from from the village Kalady in Kerala, while one or two say that he was from Chidambaram, in the neighbouring states of Tamil Nadu). Nevertheless, he was most definitely from Tamiḻakam. Nowhere have I ever come across a contradiction to this assertion. And really, there is no reason I know of to doubt it. [3][4]

P.S:

Also lastly, I noticed your appellation contrasting "legendary birth place" and "actual birth place". I'm not sure how exactly we are going to contrast these two in this situation. The region being referred to in all cases is a very real "geographical location", so I don't understand how it can be called "legendary". In the case of Patanjali, for example, the birth place would be called "legendary" because the places mentioned in regards with his birth is truly somewhat "legendary", which is clearly not the case with ASA.

If this is somehow too "legendary" (as ridiculously fictional as the very idea might be) for wikipedia, Wikipedia should go ahead and strip the place of birth and place of death locational markers from Siddhartha Gautama, Mahavira, etc, which are all conspicuously what should be referred to as "legendary" if at all we're are to look at it that way.

[1] Surēśvara's Naiṣkarmya-siddhi 4.44

[2] “Sankara Vijayas : Arun Kumar Upadhyay : Free download, borrow, and streaming : Internet Archive,” Internet Archive, Apr. 30, 2020. p. 41 https://archive.org/details/sankara-vijayas

[3] “Sankara Vijayas : Arun Kumar Upadhyay : Free download, borrow, and streaming : Internet Archive,” Internet Archive, Apr. 30, 2020. p. 108 https://archive.org/details/sankara-vijayas

[4]H. Sankaracarya, The Saundaryalahari or Flood of beauty. 1958. p.25. doi:10.4159/harvard.9780674432659. Porulubayasiga (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:OR. We summarize WP:RS, not our own analysis. Shankara's 'biographies' were written centuries after his life; they are utterly unreliable. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 19:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bowler the Carmine | talk 05:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Adi Sankara Caste

What is Adi Sankara Caste

आचार्य शंकरो नाम त्वष्टा पुत्रों न संशयः' यह श्लोक है: आचार्य शंकरो नाम त्वष्टा पुत्रों न संशयः, विप्रकुल गुरू दीक्षा विश्वकर्मान्तु ब्राह्मणः. Prabhatv01 (talk) 09:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes your correct 2409:4073:497:A104:BE54:E931:4881:48D8 (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Prabhatv01 Use English: This is the English-language Wikipedia; discussions should normally be conducted in English. If using another language is unavoidable, try to provide a translation, or get help at Wikipedia:Embassy. Do not expect readers to translate your content themselves, not even when modern browsers have machine translation built-in.

KingParijata (talk) 03:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Vishwakarma and his descendants by Alfred Edward Robert chapter number 3 please read it This book written in 1904 is an honest account but all the books considered by Wikipedia as evidence are from 2000 eras and they are all written with the intention of making Jagad Guru a Namboothiri Brahmin, therefore taking the history written by Alfred Edward Robert as a proof, pleads that Jagad Guru's caste should be Vishwa Brahmin. Vipin Babu lumia (talk) 07:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Adi Shankara cast

Acharya Shankaro Naam Tvashta Putron Na Sanshayah' This verse is: Acharya Shankaro Naam Tvashta Putron Na Sanshayah, Viprakula Guru Diksha Vishwakarmantu Brahmanah. This is Shankara Vijaya Sloka which means that Adi Shankara was the son of a bronze sculptor. 2409:4073:497:A104:B705:6546:3E8B:F421 (talk) 15:21, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

We need to use a reliable reference for the sentence and for the translation you have given.

KingParijata (talk) 02:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

To make

Brahmaya

In verity this crown-making

caste (the Visvakarma caste) is directly descended from

Brahmaya.”

Noi only were the five sons of Visvakarma Brahmins by

birth, but all these who are by birth members of the Visva-

karma caste have also a ‘claim to that origin and a right. to

‘that name. As the Brahman sprang from Brahma’s mouth,

as he was the first born, and as he possesses the Vedas, he is,

by right the lord of the whole creation. (Manu I. 93, p. 25.)

2

The-name ‘“‘Jagatguru,” the teacher of the world, is a

distinction to-which the people of the Visvakarma caste. alone

‘are entitled. (Winslow’s Dictionary) When the world-

famed Sankaracharya of Travancore, the founder of the

Advaita School of Philosophy, which is Buddhism in dis-

Suise, halted at Masulipatam, he styled himself seta oe

The Dewakammalars of South India, who were very jealous

of their title, incensed at an apparent imposter trying to

ussume what was their own exclusive. property, questionted.

his right to the distinction, when the celebrated philosopher

sang the following lines :—-

“Achiry6é Sankaré nama,

“Twashta putrGé nasansaya,

‘Viprakula gurérdiksha,

“Visvakarmantu Brabsana.”

“My name is Sankaraichdrya, T am a descendant of ‘ft apne

l-have come here to teach the Vipras the right of ney Ur

‘the sacred thread. I am a Brahmin of the Fapeatie

caste.’ (Sankara Vijaya.) This is irrebutiable proof that

the people of the Visvakarma caste are Brahmins.

Vishwakarma and his descendants by Albert Edward Robert chapter number 3 first edition 1904 2409:4073:4E3E:8090:590C:12E1:7545:46AC (talk) 12:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Adi Shankaracharya caste

To make Brahmaya In verity this crown-making

caste (the Visvakarma caste) is directly descended from

Brahmaya.”

Noi only were the five sons of Visvakarma Brahmins by birth, but all these who are by birth members of the Visva- karma caste have also a ‘claim to that origin and a right. to ‘that name. As the Brahman sprang from Brahma’s mouth, as he was the first born, and as he possesses the Vedas, he is, by right the lord of the whole creation. (Manu I. 93, p. 25.)

2

The-name ‘“‘Jagatguru,” the teacher of the world, is a distinction to-which the people of the Visvakarma caste. alone ‘are entitled. (Winslow’s Dictionary) When the world- famed Sankaracharya of Travancore, the founder of the Advaita School of Philosophy, which is Buddhism in dis- Suise, halted at Masulipatam, he styled himself seta oe The Dewakammalars of South India, who were very jealous of their title, incensed at an apparent imposter trying to ussume what was their own exclusive. property, questionted. his right to the distinction, when the celebrated philosopher sang the following lines :—-

“Achiry6é Sankaré nama, “Twashta putrGé nasansaya, ‘Viprakula gurérdiksha, “Visvakarmantu Brabsana.”

“My name is Sankaraichdrya, T am a descendant of ‘ft apne l-have come here to teach the Vipras the right of ney Ur ‘the sacred thread. I am a Brahmin of the Fapeatie caste.’ (Sankara Vijaya.) This is irrebutiable proof that the people of the Visvakarma caste are Brahmins. 2409:4073:4E3E:8090:590C:12E1:7545:46AC (talk) 12:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Adi shagarajarya cast

Vishvakarma And His Descendents by Alfred Edward robert 1904 chapter number 3 page 12 please read it adi shagarajarya is vishwakarma cast 2409:4073:48C:F64D:0:0:5CB:58A0 (talk) 10:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

You are very right, this is a history written before the Namboothiris in Kerala walked in sandals, it was in 1904 but the histories considered by Wikipedia today are all from 2000 onwards. All of them were written only to depict Jaganguru Adi Shankaracharya as a Namboothiri Brahmin. Even the period of life given by them is different. When there is a dispute between two parties, historical articles written by a third party outside India should be checked. Vipin Babu lumia (talk) 14:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Adi Shankaracharya cast

Jagad Guru Adi Shankaracharya is a Mushari Brahmin of Vishwa Brahmin sect. It is mentioned in a book written in 1904 about the series of Vishwakarma that during the times when Jagad Guru Adi Shankaracharya lived, the titles of Brahmashree and Jagad Guru were entitled to the Vishwa Brahmin category which means that only technical wise Brahmins were chosen for such things. .Wikipedia checked the historical documents written since 2001 and made him a Namboothiri Brahmin. All such histories were written in India where he was intended to be a Namboothiri Brahmin and all of them belonged to the Brahmin community in India. But Alfred Edward Robert wrote this history in a country outside India in 1904. . I believe Wikipedia will correct this error. Adi Shankaracharya is a person who lived before Christ. None of the Namboothiri Brahmins of Kerala ever accept him as a Namboothiri Brahmin. Vipin Babu lumia (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Jagatguru aadi Shankaracharya surname

Jagad Guru Adi Shankaracharya's full name is Jagadguru Adi Shankaracharya During the times when Jagadguru Adi Shankaracharya lived, only Vishwa Brahmins were entitled to use the title of Jagad Guru or Brahmashree in Maharajya India. But modern historians have corrected it and made him a Nambutiri Brahmin, that's why Wikipedia doesn't add Jagadguru in front of his name? In India, the Vishwa Brahmin community addresses him as Jagad Guru Athyana Shankaracharya. Vipin Babu lumia (talk) 14:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:HONORIFICS, and WP:RS, and please stop spamming this talkpage with trivia. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I read your reply. The history written in the royal period which you say is obsolete is the true history. But all the histories written in the modern period are made by distorting the history written in the royal period. Does Wikipedia say that all the writings in the royal periods are wrong? 2409:4073:114:CAD4:EE0B:E647:C8D0:DCA2 (talk) 09:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The articles written about the Ashari community in the Wikipedia pages are all written in the Emperor period, why they were accepted by Wikipedia and rejected by me as writings from the Emperor period. 2409:4073:114:CAD4:EE0B:E647:C8D0:DCA2 (talk) 09:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)