This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Trucks. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Latest comment: 7 years ago10 comments2 people in discussion
For some time I have been concerned that these vehicles are described here in Wikimedia as International Harvester trucks when they are not.
After a certain amount of discussion with other parties I thought I would raise the subject here before going ahead and categorising all the images by production year, omitting Harvester in the new category names— planning to move on through to a better categorisation of models than the current kind of organically grown collection of categories. I plan to do that too dropping the word Harvester from category names.
It is very difficult to create rational categories when there are almost no images to be organised. Now we have plenty of images. Categorising by production year is a good way to get started.
Does anyone have any strong feelings that the word Harvester should be retained in the name of the truck category? Thanks in advance etc. Eddaido (talk) 01:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
US HD trucks rarely change by model year. You can use the same cab for five-ten years with no visible change . Maybe a grill. On images it wouldn't be realistic to do years on HD trucks (you might need a builder's plate to tell). I don't know PUs. Sammy D III (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
I have to admit that's slowed me up a bit. It does happen that photographers include a date for the vehicle, for example here. Maybe (if a year is not supplied) they could be given the first production year of that exact model? Needs to be thought about doesn't it. Eddaido (talk) 13:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
I believe you are still thinking "automobile". Once you lose the year-styling change the year doesn't mean much. I might not know the year of the truck I was driving if it wasn't mine. There is far more difference between "options" than years. Your link is to someone who is proud of his truck. Won't most be of one driving past somewhere?
When you are doing years could you put in links to all model cats built that year? You would send them to the specific truck's own cat which covers the entire production run?
There is a lot of duplication with different names between the International trucks cat and the International Harvester sub-cat. That is a real mess. The Harvester sub-cat stuff could be changed or deleted and the Harvester sub-cat could go.
My idea was to begin by allocating production years to everything because that sorts like with like. As you point out the second part of the job is to fit each truck image into the right model. The idea is to end up with every image having at least two categories: one for the model of truck and a second for the (maybe first year of production) year of the truck. Yes, quite true, my experience is with automobiles. I have tried also with European automobiles, in particular with MG where the product changes little over quite a number of product years. Still, I do agree it is much more usual for a car to be described by its year even if it is an MG.
I plan for the duplications etc to come out in the wash - if that makes sense. I got started on this because I tried to categorise an image of an International truck and found it almost impossible. I've already begun on the period up to 1920 so it will be easier to explain any questions and also in the hope of attracting some attention and bringing about some discussion on this page. Maybe I'm going ahead boldly but I am trying to 'proceed with caution'. Yes, thank you, it is a nice new day here and a very good one to be well away from the Caribbean. Thanks, Eddaido (talk) 22:39, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
You came back fast, I was going to delete that "duplication". You are on the idea anyway. I can't quite follow the first year and will watch.
I'm glad to talk, give you someplace to explain. I talk to myself about trucks.
EDIT: There are a bunch of New Zealand trucks down there.
Mike's (crashed) TR-4 was faster than my (rusty) 69 BGT but Frank's clean AH 3000, a generation earlier, stunk of class and was the fastest of all. In retrospect they were really crappy cars, but I think that was the most comfortable driving position ever. And I will never forget the shifter. Sammy D III (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
They were newer in my day ;) first a TR2, best gearbox, AH 100/6 had a seriously tired engine that pressurised its crankcase and sprayed smoke and oil over others once I had passed them, MGB and last CGT. Eddaido (talk) 00:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
My mistake, I got confused. I saw you putting things in year cats without taking them out of anything. I thought you accidently took the image out of "IH trucks" when you put it in a year. I now see you put it in a better "name" sub-cat. Sorry. Sammy D III (talk) 01:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Harvester pt 2
Latest comment: 7 years ago7 comments2 people in discussion
The cats "Navistar International 7000 series" and "International WorkStar" are the same truck, the name was added. I put "7000 series" up a level so it could be seen. Maybe a cat like "International WorkStar (7000 series)"? "International TransStar (8000 series)" is already done that way. WorkStar and TransStar are current names.
That makes sense to me
EDIT: I put a world "Ford Trucks" cat into "Trucks in the United States". If you re-named it I could throw anything non-US out? Sammy D III (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I think "Trucks in the United States" is meant to cover trucks physically within the United States. So, I guess, it should not have the manufacturer categories feeding into it. It used to be Trucks of the United States when Infrogmation added Chevrolet trucks to it in August 2008 but it was soon changed to the current title. I suspect absolutely all the pictures of Chevrolet trucks (no matter where in the world they may be) should not be there and of course the same with Ford. I think this matter, this apparent mistake, should be referred to Wikimedia administration because (to me) its clearly wrong yet its been like that for almost a decade. Maybe they could reassure both of us. Eddaido (talk) 01:28, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
I had assumed that it was trucks physically inside the US. In my new "Diamond T/REO trucks" cat I excluded Australia and Canada. I wish I had put US in the title (half of my edits are to fix the other half).
I think you should include all the trucks, worldwide, then have a separate category for those "Diamond T/REO trucks"in the US
I put a few cats from "Trucks" to "Trucks USA" even though they were international. You HAVE to have Ford and Chevy trucks in the US, even if they bring other countries in with them. You HAVE to have Ford.
Mmm. If you want to separate out those in the US you will have to do it on each image
I don't know what you can do with cats (or explain this question). Can you make a new cat (Truck name US?), put the old images and sub-cats into it, and make all the cat-links on the old images and sub-cats have the new cat's name? Sort of like "Save as..." Changing those by hand would be a monster pain.
I think something can be done with a search then cat-a-lot but I'm not certain.
If I can get an international cat with a US name I can just throw away non-US stuff. They would still be in the international cat, we don't have to mess with them now.
Yeah. By categorising each individual US image as (Reo) trucks in the USA you would get the right answer I think.
Do we need an admin? There are two of us who care, it would probably take two to object. Nobody ever comes here, we might be able to play and be gone before anyone noticed. It would be nice to have some support, but just no opposition is a victory for me. I HATE Wiki politics. Sammy D III (talk) 15:24, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
I think we are being read by other editors though of course I cannot tell how much they care. If they really don't care at all I guess that means so long as we come to a joint agreement and its all public and transparent we ought to be safe from dire punishments. Oughtn't we to be? Sorry I did not read this the other day but here now are my responses
Well, you got me addicted. I want to make a talk page at the cat. Do you mind if I use some of your stuff for a beginning? You can preview and ok it if you want. Nice day/night. Sammy D III (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Trucks built by "International Harvester Company" (and Navistar) are branded "International". This is true from at least 1914 (the 1908 "International Gasoline Auto Buggies" uses it before trademark)[1] until the present[2]. (I have posted this in many places).
The problem
Everything is labeled "Harvester" so you think that way. And we all know the connection because we know trucks. But all the trucks have "International". People have brought the "Harvester" thinking in with them. And it is not the name of the truck itself.
I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. Of course there must be many who got it wrong on their own, but it looks to me like Wikipedia is telling everyone incorrect information across the board.
Seventy-five years of "International Harvester Company" brochures for "International" trucks are here: [3]
This is an updated list of my sources:
Extended content
Seventy-five years of IHC brochures for their trucks are here. After 1911 "International" is used in trucks without "Harvester". A rare exception is some late model Scouts.
International Harvester General Catalog No. 20. International Harvester. 1920. pp. 336a-342. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Section "International Motor Truck" does not have the word "Harvester" in it.
"A History of International Trucks (PDF copy of this article)". International Harvester Company, Chicago, Illinois. April 25, 1961. Retrieved September 19, 2017. The first paragraph of the second page ends with "and the trade name "International" was not bestowed until 1914".
History and Development of International Harvester. International Harvester. 1976. pp. 14–15. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Page 14: "the design of the International truck..."the present International truck"..."International had become". Page 15: "International trucks"..."Modern Internationals"..."the International 4x4"..."of International trucks". These pages use "Harvester" and "the Company" to talk about plants, not trucks. Page 18-26 all picture captions say "International".
"Navistar, Who we are, Heritage". Navistar. 2016. Retrieved 9 October 2017. This is Navistar's own history. They refer to trucks as "International". From 1972 (IHC) until present (Navistar) they show "International ®".
"International Harvester". Springfield Ohio History.net. 2009. Retrieved 9 October 2017. is about the IHC/Navistar truck plant. It talks about the reorganization. The last sentence is: "Navistar International Corporation continues to manufacture...under the International brand name".
Burness, Tad (1985). American Truck & Bus Spotter's Guide 1920-1985. Motorbooks International. pp. 215–250. ISBN0-87938-198-1. has "IHC Chicago" under the section title. Page 226 and 229 label the hood ornament logos as "IH". Everything else is "International", "International Trucks", or "International Motor trucks".
Crismon, Fred W. (2001). Modern U.S. Military Vehicles. MBI Publishing. pp. 93, 94, 113, 129, 148... ISBN0-7603-0526-9. shows that trucks built for the military are "Internal Harvester Model xxx. Prototypes and civilian types are "International" or "International's", but occasionally some are "IHC's Model".
Davies, Peter J. (2000). The World Encyclopedia of Trucks. Lorenz Books. ISBN0-7548-0518-2. Page 401 is International Harvester, Melbourne, Australia. In the text "International Harvester" is repeatedly used as a company, but trucks are "International". Page 402-403 International Harvester, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Text says "the International name badge was adopted in 1914". All trucks after the "Auto Buggy" are "International", "International's", or just model numbers.
Foster, Patrick (2015). International Harvester Trucks, The Complete History. Motorbooks. ISBN978-0-7603-4860-4. This history of the company uses "International Harvester", "International", "IH", "Navistar", and "the company" as names of companies. All trucks after the "Auto Wagon" are "International" or model only. Page 172 (about the Navistar name change): "The vehicles themselves would be known as International trucks, as always".
Mroz, Albert (1996). The Illustrated Encyclopedia of American Trucks and Commercial Vehicles. Krause. pp. 206–212. ISBN0-87341368-7. The first three paragraphs of the section "International" tell of early history. The last sentence of the third paragraph is "In 1914, the IHC was superseded with the name International". The word "Harvester" is not used again. The Navistar reorganization is in this section.
Wood, Donald F. (1998). American Buses. MBI Publishing. pp. 23, 41, 42, 58, 65, 77, 96, 101, 116, 123, 127, 130. ISBN0-7603-0432-7. uses "International" or "International chassis".
Motor's Truck and Diesel Repair Manual (26 ed.). Motor. 1973. ISBN0-910992-16-9. index has "International" (915-953) and "International Diesel Engines" (1224-1249). The word "Harvester is never used in the index or either section.
This link[4] is to a run-of-the mill commercial truck sales site. There are plenty of them. Search "Select a make" for "International" (there is no selection with "Harvester"). Look at the very oldest page (#472 for me). What do professionals who buy and sell trucks call them?
Google images [5] shows all factory Scout manuals are labeled "International". There are also some "international" sites that are confusing, but that is Wikipedia's issue, not people looking for an accurate "International Scout" article.
Google search for "International trucks" [6] 126,000,000 results. Search for "International Harvester trucks [7] 520,000 results.
Arguments in favor of "International Harvester"
mr.choppers (talk)posted: "I looked at the evidence (and some further old ads) and support such a renaming. This does not...(relates to other problems). As a matter of good practice it may always be a good idea to contact editors with previous involvement,such as ping|BarnCas. Cheers. (That was for context, not his position)
DanTD (talk) posted "I have to oppose such a move, partially because of the old ads that user|Mr.choppers mentioned, and partially because of the long-standing use of the File:International Harvester logo.png|"IH" logo designed by w|Raymond Loewy.
BarnCas (talk) seems to make his argument based primarily on the hood ornament and his interpretation of it. He questions the sources given by me above. He does make other points".
"As said in Navistar corporate site: "The year 1986 brought a new beginning to this 155 year old company, now known as Navistar.". International Harvester and (Navistar) International are practically 2 different brands: the latter emerged only when IH sold all its farming activities, leading, among other things, the logo and the badge lettering to be changed. Trucks made before 1986 were indeed apparently proposed as International only but were unequivocally claimed to be International Harvester products: one can see it when looking at contemporary ads or brochures, where the IH logo and International Harvester Company can be seen every time at the end of the documents. That also appears in the 1910 Roadster specs visible in Sammy D III's first link: it starts with "Introducing the IHC roadster [...]".
Moreover, and as almost said by DanTD, the IH logo appeared somewhere on the grille of almost all trucks as brand logo starting with the 1953+ R-Series and until 1985 (see the 1981+ 9670, the 1983+ 9370...). For me, and without hesitation, all of this makes the pre-1986 trucks more than (just) "International" models: they're clearly "International Harvester" ones.
About the IHC 1910 Roadster: a single counterexample in mathematics or logic is enough to question the main assertion. And this is the same for sources, for me. And to be honest, I didn't have to search a lot, I just checked the first vehicles. How many other counterexamples are present in the rest of the document you linked?
As far as I know, logos in the grille / hood ornaments are brand logos. You see more likely Chevrolet or GMC logos on concerned vehicles than GM ones, Freightliner ones instead of Mercedes-Benz versions; Dodge or Chrysler in place of Fiat. I may be wrong, but I also see the IH logo as brand logo because of the change that took place with the switch between the L-Series (which used the same grille logo as the K/KB-Series and the previous truck lines) and the already mentioned R-Series:
KB-Series ornament
R-Series and later
If I'm not mistaken, IH stands here for International Harvester. And why would a brand logo be replaced by the one of the company owner?"
I believe that trucks manufactured by "International Harvester Company" are branded "International". This could affect many articles. I hope someone will care and possibly do something. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 14:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Australia and Internationals
AR-130 series
A search of Australian newspapers of the 1950s (it is suggested Australia may have been different from about this time, local manufacture in a temporary factory began in 1950) comes up with these results:
International trucks 20,927 records. Click here to view each of these results
International Harvester trucks 524 records. Click here
There is not one mention of Harvester in these pages freshly archived by the National Library of Australia
That's a lot of stuff. Can we agree on voting on one thing and not worrying about Line vs Series or any other secondary concerns? Let's keep the discussion focused or it will never be finished. I am in favor of dropping the "Harvester" portion as per the thousands of manuals and brochures. The "IH" badging is not proof of anything, many cars have badges which display the manufacturer's name (a variety of British Leyland vehicles, GM applied GM badges from 2005 to 2009, etc etc) rather than the name they go by. I also added a requested move header to International Harvester Light Line pickup, feel free to add it where necessary. Mr.choppers | ✎ 17:46, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I think this is where a response should end up... This discussion is kind of tricky and I have to wonder if we are reading too much into things here, but it can be best summarized this way. From 1901 to 1986, International Harvester sold its agricultural products under the International name, along with several other brand names (such as Farmall); its road vehicles (ranging from light trucks to the Transtar and Paystar) also wore the International brand name. After 1986, IHC survived only as a truck and engine manufacturer, changing its name to Navistar, continuing the trucks under the International brand name.
In other words, brand now, models later. While the above is fairly clear (coming straight out of the WP IHC and Navistar articles), this isn't the point to figure out whether or not to rename a couple dozen related articles. Citing the badging example, there are several versions of IHC trucks with both "International" and the "IH" badge, so the proof of either name is unknown. --SteveCof00 (talk) 08:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
EDIT: Looking back, I don't think this comments on your post. It's general.
I am sorry, but I am having a lot of trouble understanding this logo thinking. I don't mean to be snotty, POV again I guess. And I sometimes answer so fast because I am bored.
There is a fan club for this logo. Fine. It was probably on every truck between Lowey and the Navastar collapse. If you don't see the logo then it probably broke off. It was used, there isn't any question, correct? The name doesn't change the logo, the logo was unquestionably there and can be used in the exactly the same place in the article?
IHC built farm equipment, trucks, and construction equipment. That logo was everywhere. If you were selling a truck to a farmer wouldn't you want to identify it with his tractor and front-loader? Especially if you make more tractors than anyone else and your customers are happy with them.
Why does IHC/Navistar matter to the truck titles? Shouldn't the builder be in the lead, not the title? They are the evolving company building evolving trucks. The only difference between late IHCs and early Navistars is a smoothed out hood and trim details. They were built in the same factories. Frankly, trucks don't change much.
If a reader looks at a truck they will see "International" and a model name (not now!). Will they know the builder at all or are they looking at the truck? If someone cares about builders won't they go to IHC or Navistar and work their way down? Do amateurs know/care about the difference in builder's names? Remember, it is important to us, but we are not typical readers.
VERY PREMATURE: I think the link to International Harvester Company in the lead should at least have "Company" spelled out. Could it be bold? Scream it at them, the company is historically important.
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Not moved. After extended discussion, it is clear that there would be legitimate grounds in policy to make these moves, but there is an absence of a clear consensus favoring the moves. I would suggest waiting a few months and then marshaling a more complete move proposal backed by a complete picture of prevailing usage over time. bd2412T20:09, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Procedural note – This request does not intend to move the WikiProject. I'm submitting it here as the centralized discussion area because of the considerable prior discussion in the above sections. While this is open I may work on enhancing RMCD bot and the RM templates to provide better support for hosting discussions on WikiProject talk pages. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Oppose 'international a series' sounds quite vague, even if there aren't rival uses of the term in wikipedia right now , what about 5,10,20 years from now. Given the huge scope of wikipedia, I would say people should always use the most specific title possible MfortyoneA (talk) 22:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)
Do you realize that "International" is a proper name, not a term? I am trying to ask if all the trucks are named "International" or "International Harvester". I am trying very hard to not talk about models. "Oppose" means you want to keep the name "Internatonal Harvester", correct? Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 00:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Oppose I do not see any reason to remove part of the legal name of the trucks from the article pages. Historically this would not be done for the title, but the article itself would simply include verbiage such as "or commonly referred to simply as International. "Harvester" is part of the legal name of the vehicles and should remain in the titles of the pages. Steve Lux, Jr. (talk) 12:11, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Lux, Jr.:Sir, the name of the manufacturer is "International Harvester", who says the truck is "trade name International”. Could I get you to look at the links I posted above [20] In the blog looking page the fifth paragraph of "A History of... If you download the PDF you get an original International Harvester document, the first paragraph of the second page has the name.
These brochures[21]. also show the brand name International for almost all trucks built between 1914 and the 1970s.
The section directly above this one has discussion on this, too. EDIT: I deleted nine other sources up there to make it easier to read.
Support based on precedent. There are many, many vehicles which carry one brand whilst being made by a conglomerate with a different name. And Wikipedia lists them by their brand, mentioning the manufacturer and corporate owner in the text. We don't title articles "Volkswagen Group Audi A4", or "British Leyland Jaguar XJ-6" etc. It seems this International / International Harvester example causes such confusion because the brand is a sub-set of the corporate name. But in similar cases the precedent still holds; e.g. we don't say "Daimler-Chrysler Crossfire". – Kieran T(talk)12:36, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, which states Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). Also, Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title and "International" is a generic word that cannot be trademarked. Most acceptable sources include the word "Harvester". — Zawl10:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
@Zawl:You have something that shows that "International Harvester" is (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) the most common name? I have
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I have International brocures from 1957 into Navistar. Here are some front covers: 1957 International Cab over engine VCO-405...--1967 International 400 series--International 4200, 4300, and Eagle--International 4470 Australia (a COE)--International CO Loadstar--International CO4070. There are 17 others. All identify the truck as "International". No "Harvesters" on the cover. Most of these trucks were built by "International Harvester Co.", any "Navistar" is an accident. The brochures may have copy-write problems here, but you don't have to believe me.
Davies, Peter J. (2000). The World Encyclopedia of Trucks. Lorenz Books. ISBN0-7548-0518-2. Page 401 is International Harvester, Melbourne, Australia. "International Harvester", "ACCO" (or is that a model?), "Seddon Atkinson", "International Australia", "ENASA", "ITAL", and "Iveco" are in the text as corporations but do not relate to individual trucks (ACCO?). Truck image is an ACCO G2350 which has a visible S International logo RF. In the text is International truck ACCO G(?) and International 7600. International Transtar 4670 image has International across the grille. But this is Australia, I don't know them.
Page 402-403 International Harvester, Chicago, Illinois, USA,. McCormack, Deering, all the Australian companies, and Navistar are in the text as corporations but do not relate to individual trucks. All trucks in the text are International, International's, or just model numbers. None have Harvester. Text says "the International name badge was adopted in 1914" but I disagree, it was used by IHC in 1908. Maybe they are talking about a physical sign? But it is a ref, so we should debate 1908 vs. 1914 start. First pic is "International Harvester's early". Then to "International's" XL series cabovers have Int'l on LF and L door. Transtar cabover has Int'l over grille. Three have no clear name. Many of these pics have the IHC logo clearly visible, but that is already acknowledged.
Motor's Truck and Diesel Repair Manual (26 ed.). Motor. 1973. ISBN0-910992-16-9. The index has "International" (915-953) and "International Diesel Engines" (1224-1249). The word "Harvester is never used in the index or either section.
Trucks built for the military are "Internal Harvester Model xxx", so a good case for trucks built specifically for the US Military trucks being "International Harvester". Prototypes and civilian types are International or International's, but occasionally some are "IHC's Model". Crismon, Fred W. (2001). Modern U.S. Military Vehicles. MBI Publishing. pp. 93, 94, 113, 129, 148... ISBN0-7603-0526-9. uses International or International's. I don't want to skim any more pages. The US Military does buy custom-built "International Harvester" Model trucks. How about their engines? Doyle, David (2003). Standard catalog of U.S. Military Vehicles. Kraus Publications. pp. 101, 125, 127, 174. ISBN0-87349-508-X. have International Red Diamond 361 or 450. Do half-tracks count (p. 369)? International Red Diamond 450. I have other sources that also call the Red Diamond series engines "International".
Wood, Donald F. (1998). American Buses. MBI Publishing. pp. 23, 41, 42, 58, 65, 77, 96, 101, 116, 123, 127, 130. ISBN0-7603-0432-7. uses International or International chassis.
Crismon, Frederick W. (2002), International Trucks (2 ed.), Minneapolis, MN: Victory WW2 Publishing, ISBN0-9700567-2-9 I do not have this book but I call attention to it's title.
Haynes, Chilton and factory Scout shop manuals all say International on the cover. I don't have them, it took a couple of minutes Googling "International Scout shop manuals" to come up with a bunch. International Scout Encyclopedia by Jim Allen and John Glancey comes up too. The cover shows International and IH's (possesive?).
Eddaido has these from Australia:
Extended content
A search of Australian newspapers of the 1950s (it is suggested Australia may have been different from about this time, local manufacture in a temporary factory began in 1950) comes up with these results:
International trucks 20,927 records. Click here to view each of these results
International Harvester trucks 524 records. Click here
There is not one mention of Harvester in these pages freshly archived by the National Library of Australia
May 1959 Internationals Harvesters Cavalcade of Trucks . . . Particulars of all International trucks etc may be obtained from . . . [30]
I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. I think this is assumed by people who are close to IHC, but I have seen no evidence to support "Harvester", and we have been looking at plenty of sources. Any chance I can get you to reconsider? Sammy D III (talk) 12:05, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Really, because I've heard the word "Harvester" long before the internet existed, let alone Wikipedia. And I never saw that part of the name eliminated until the purchase by Navistar. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 03:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Com'on Dan, I'm asking about the name brand of the truck, not the company. You won't address a mountain of sources. Is this personal? Can't you give me something to answer instead of sarcasm? I have been square with you, correct? Please give me an honest chance? Sammy D III (talk) 07:02, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
1939 Advertisement for International "Jungle Yacht" Tractor-trailer, for a luxury tour of the Belgian Congo.[1]
Advertisement for 1940 International Tanker Truck
Displayed here are the first two illustrations and their captions on the Wikipedia International Harvester article (but default size and side by side)
It looks as if they were inserted by User:Tillman (one of the 4000 most active English Wikipedians of all time) on 2 August 2014 Eddaido (talk) 08:35, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
This comes from User talk:DanTD: (The first post was "On 25 August 2017" from below)
I don't know where you get this from. I actually did show some evidence of the name "International Harvester," being the correct name even when only the words "International" were spelled out on logos along the trucks. The only thing preventing me from breaking out any of my books by Tad Burness as further evidence is that they're in storage and pretty worn out. Everything I've learned over the years indicated that the trucks were named "International Harvester." The "H" in the logo wasn't there for no reason. When Case Tractors bought IHC's entire tractor division, they renamed their tractors "Case IH." I'm sorry if you think my rejection of your proposal is based on bad faith. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 12:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
All you gave me over there was a cheap shot. What source have you shown? It/they refute all my sources? How many "Burnes" books do you have? More than I have shown?
I am trying to avoid "Everything I've learned over the years indicated that the trucks were named "International Harvester."" because it is subjective. I don't care what you have learned, I am interested in what you can source. You know I think prejudice is a major factor.
I thought you were open-minded. Somewhere you said one vague line that I thought might be because you may have mis-understanded something. I asked you an honest question and I got a cheap shot. I believe that your "rejection of your proposal is based on" ignorance of the sources. Possibly dislike of me. I do not think you have given Wikipedia a fair chance to be correct. Sammy D III (talk) 12:57, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Cheap shot? How did you come up with that? I did actually show you the logo. As for my Burness collection, they include "The American Truck and Bus Spotters Guide; 1920-1985," "Pickup and Van Spotter's Guide 1945-1982," "Pickup and Van Spotter's Guide 1945-1992," and others that aren't related to trucks. Nothing I've said here is against you personally, and I'm baffled over how you've come to this conclusion. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 13:11, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Have you looked at that IHC history page? That is a IHC library sight it is on. McCormack merged into IHC. If you download the PDF you get an original IHC document. All the brochures are IHC Those are also originals from the McCormack library.
We both have books. I have listed a ton. I have quoted some. Don't bother getting yours, I believe you. How many are from the same author/publisher? Do different arrangements of the same information count separatly? Shop manuals. Does each year of each vehicle count separately? I would think that each publisher should count for one. Would you prefer a guidebook over a shop manuals?
Has the word "Harvester" appeared anywhere on any truck as built since 1914 other than on the builder's plate? Does the logo used on the trucks say "Harvester?
I don't understand this hood ornament thing. So what? The name doesn't change the hood ornament in any way. Someone else addressed this over there.
I think this should go over there. Maybe you want to make an oppose over there and use what you want from here. My first post is already there, on the botton.
This is so frustrating. I absolutely know first hand from trucks I have driven and relatives who have worked for IHC since before the IHC merge. Why will you people not just take a step back, park your emotions, and just read? Then just say "oops"?
You seem far more emotional over this than I am. The "IH" logo stands for "International Harvester." There's also one ad boasting "International Harvester engines save you big money." This ad names the company as "International Harvester Company." By the way, I'm perfectly aware of the merger with McCormick, Deering, and other companies. I also recognize the original Auto Buggies and Auto Wagons had the turn of the century IHC logos. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:45, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
The ad you just sent me has "International" 8 times plus the "International Trucks" title across the bottom. It says IHC Chicago once, and says IHC "Builds". You sent that to me.
Again, who cares about the logo? I don't understand this hood ornament thing. So what? The name doesn't change the hood ornament in any way. Someone else addressed this above. Sammy D III (talk) 15:21, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@Sammy D III: What are you trying to gain here? International Harvester trucks, are International Harvester trucks. I own one myself. Why are you trying so hard to discredit this brand by trying to wipe out the historical name of the company and trucks. Just because the short name or street name may commonly drop the "Harvester" part, does not mean that they were not called "International Harvester". The word "International" alone is so broad that it would be ridiculous to remove a crucial part of the name. Enough already. [[User:|Steve Lux, Jr.]] (talk) 17:09, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Lux, Jr.: If you own an International truck you can look at it and tell me where it says "Harvester" other than the builder's plate? You may have one on the dashboard? Seriously. Have you looked at any of my sources like "A History of International Trucks (PDF copy of this article)". International Harvester Company, Chicago, Illinois. April 25, 1961. Retrieved September 19, 2017.? No? IHC's own history isn't good for you? Why is using the correct name for a vehicle "discredit"ing the vehicle? If IHC sells the trucks as "International" does that make it a "short name or street name"? Your entire arguement rests on "International Harvester trucks, are International Harvester trucks." with not a single source. I am trying to get a major truck brand name used instead of the manufacturers name, which the truck is not sold as. Is it a "Ford Motor (manufacturer) Mustang" or is it a "Ford (brand) Mustang". You chose to not use "Motor" in "Ford Mustang", why would you use "International Harvester (manufacturer) Truck model" for an "International (brand) Truck model"? Why do you not use "Motor" but do use "Harvester"?
EDIT: Are you picking up on the difference between the manufacturer's name and the brand name they sell things as? That the International Harvester Company builds trucks and then sells them as "International Trucks"?
Another EDIT: You are saying that the "brand name" of a truck can not be used because it is too common? IHC can not use the name "International" because you think it is too common? wbm1058 has addressed that below. Sammy D III (talk) 22:27, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@Steve Lux, Jr.:"International" brand name trucks have been sold continuously for 103 years. That is a very long and historic length of time, isn't it? The "International Harvester Company" itself lasted 85 years. Navistar is only a reorganization of IHC, the same brand name trucks have been built and evolved in the same factories by the same people. I think that the brand name that has been used continuously for more than a hundred years deserves respect. Should the manufacturer's name be the last words in the first sentence of the lead? Sammy D III (talk) 01:04, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. After going through the policies on article titles, it makes the most sense to keep things as-is for a couple of reasons. Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. In this case, this is where it gets tricky. In addition to the consensus (or lack thereof?) here, there is also the issue of precision and disambiguation that needs to be covered. (This is mostly because of the word International over anything else...not everyone is familiar with vehicles or from America, so this could create a point of confusion). --SteveCof00 (talk) 20:11, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for coming. Does wbm1058's comment below "Regarding concerns that "International"...examples" relate? Any truck that uses "International" will automatically have the proper model name with the first letter capitalized behind it? "International Loadstar" or whatever? EDIT: I think I have "most typically used in reliable sources" pretty well covered. Ask about it? Sammy D III (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This is just a quick count of some confusing stuff. I count: 4 Support, 1 Opposed (blocked sock), 1 Opposed (self-blocked and no longer in discussion), 2 Oppose, and 1 Oppose assumed but not noted (DanTD). 4 Support and 2+1 assumed Opposed. Sammy D III (talk) 23:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Oppose, for consistency with the parent article International Harvester. This is essentially a descriptive title, so we should make it as precise as necessary to identify the subject. "International A-Series" sounds more like a sporting event, and will not be recognizable except to those immediately associated with IH. For example, when Googling, top results include things like a drill Even articles saying "International A-series" use it interchangeably with "IH A-Series",[32] suggesting there's no definite common name. — Amakuru (talk) 10:49, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Do you have any doubt that International Harvester sells these trucks under the brand "International"? Can I address those doubts? Do you have any doubt that "International" is not the commonly used name? Can I address those doubts?
Your position is that Wikipedia should invent names for their own use? "consistency with the parent article"? Wikipedia itself made the "parent article" so the name "International Harvester" is made up to match a Wikipedia article, not the actual name of the vehicle. "descriptive title"? Not the name of the vehicle? "as precise as necessary to identify the subject"? The proper name of the motor vehicle is not "precise" enough?
It is the "Ford Motor Company"? They sell trucks branded "Ford". It is the "International Harvester Company"? They sell trucks branded "International". Why do you not use "Motor" but do use "Harvester"?
Once again, Wikipedia is inventing a name that the vehicle never used because it is easier for Wikipedia, not because it is the actual name of the vehicle. Wikipedia "housekeeping" seems more important than actual facts. Sammy D III (talk) 11:40, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Support. The manufacturer is International Harvester, but the make of their trucks is simply, International, with only a few instances found where the model name included "Harvester", such as International Harvester Scout in the late 1970s. Think of this as analogous to General Motors Corporation, the manufacturer, and GMC, the make, but not quite. Common sense would tell you that the company's branding strategy would avoid placing the moniker "Harvester", intended for their combine harvesters, on their trucks. Those claiming that "International" is too generic a word to let stand by itself need to address why it is acceptable to do just that with Navistar International's trucks such at the International XT, and how to name a truck such as the International Harvester S-Series which for most of its life was made by Navistar, after they had dropped the "Harvester" name, because they sold that division to Case (see Case IH). I've been trying to maintain some neutrality so that I could credibly close this, but I've become too involved at this point not to take a position. Closing admin: Please do your best to filter out the noise and find the strongest arguments. Sammy, please do not reply to my statement of support. Rebuttals from the opposition are welcome, though. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
@MfortyoneA, Steve Lux, Jr., Zawl, SteveCof00, and Amakuru: please reconsider your opposes after reading my rationale in support above, and additional thoughts in the discussion section below. I'm still hoping we can get a more definitive consensus on this RM which has been open for 27 days now. Thanks. wbm1058 (talk) 13:57, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Is your comment about the name itself, or about the procedure? If you have any doubts about the name itself could we talk (if I try to be very polite)? If it is about the procedure (not the red links, no problem there), agree to disagree?. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Everything in Wikipedia is labeled "Harvester" so you think that way. But all the trucks are named "International". People have brought the "Harvester" thinking in with them. And it is not the name of the truck itself.
I don't think I have found the word "Harvester" used for truck names outside Wikipedia or sights possibly using Wikipedia as a source. Eddaido and I have found maybe 25 sources supporting "International" and have seen no source really disputing it. Of course there must be many others who got it wrong on their own, but it looks to me like Wikipedia is telling everyone incorrect information across the board. Sammy D III (talk) 13:05, 26 September 2017 (UTC)
Only one "oppose" has addressed one page of one of the mountain of sources I have supplied. I don't think any other person disputing my position has addressed even that one page. Not one "oppose" has come up with a single source that disputes "International" only. Nobody will give me anything except personal opinions with no source. What is the advantage to "stonewalling" instead of discussing? Sammy D III (talk) 07:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
On 25 August 2017 a mistake in the name of "International" was shown to me. Since then I have tried to correct this one mistake.
I have driven International trucks, used their state registration cards, insurance cards, read their operators manuals, and talked with others who did the same. Of course this would be OR in an article, but we are on a talk page. I can post the truth and you can call me a liar.
Anyone close to International trucks can walk right up to a ratty S truck in a parking lot and look at it. Of course you don't have to, and you can't use it in an article, but you can use it as background. If you can't/won't do that you could at least read sources objectively.
We keep providing sources for using the name "International" and nobody provides any source disputing it. Of course not. Even if someone could come up with a single source disputing it the number of supporting sources should overwhelm it anyway.
People have used their own opinions with no sources to oppose something which has been overwhelming sourced. Some have edited these articles (I have, too). I think some people are too close and can have an ingrained opinion that they can/will not look at objectively.
I believe people are standing in the way of correcting Wikipedia for their own personal reasons. People who are objective can look at and discuss evidence. And if you are only subjective should you be editing an encyclopedia?
Feel free to call me a liar who is only trying to help my ego. But when this move request fails Wikipedia will still be presenting incorrect information across the board and some people did nothing to correct it, not even consider it honestly. Sammy D III (talk) 10:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Sir, how do your sources compare with mine? One is a novel, should it be used? And I have a ton of stuff.
Good catch with the ads that do have "Harvester". I think your idea of "marketing" sounds good. IHC would have been collapsing into the Navistar reorganization about then. Grasping at straws? Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
International Truck has redirected to Navistar International for over a decade. One thing largely overlooked in this discussion is that many of the trucks in the International Truck product line are already titled without the "Harvester" name.
A very simple background: International Harvester was failing in the 1980s. They sold off their farm and construction equipment and became truck-only Navistar. With new money they improved their old truck designs. The trucks continued in production as brand name "International" throughout the reorganization. Most model names were changed. Later new designs were introduced with new names Sammy D III (talk) 22:42, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Again, we are talking about the manufacturer's name. Why? Both International Harvester and Navistar built "International" branded trucks. Why is the manufacturer's name in the title? Shouldn't it be in the lead?
There were no Navistar S-trucks because they changed the name (and hood) until the new designs were ready. I think the 4000/8000 is probably in the "S" article because I somebody added it as a generation. Same truck, different model name, that would be my thinking. Nobody wrote a "4000/8000" article and I didn't bother. Why care what the manufacturer's name is, especially since it is the same company building the same (or direct evolution) trucks? Same employees in the same plants?
I think that there is probably a "S class bus chassis" article is because International built chassis for most of the school busses in the US and someone (Steveof00) cared. They probably build the most now as Navistar.
Why does the manufacturer's name belong in the title? Whoever built the truck, the brand name is still "International". Isn't this the same deal as the logos? The "Ford Motor Mustang"?
@DanTD:@SteveCof00:@Steve Lux, Jr.:Questions about "International" being either the "legal" or "common" name keep coming up. I believe I have sourced both overwhelmingly.
A History of International Trucks trucks.html has a signed document on IHC letterhead that can be downloaded. Look at the title. Not one oppose has ever addressed this link, or even said that they have been there. Boy that link went dead fast! There are three other histories in "Extended content".
Seventy-five years of IHC brochures[33] for "International" trucks has had one page questioned by one person. No other oppose has even said that they have been there.
This is from the same museum's IHC collection.[34] Every link refers to "International" trucks. In many IHC's farm equipment is also covered, but no truck has "Harvester". Sammy D III (talk) 00:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe I have shown that International Harvester sells its trucks under the name "International" without "Harvester".
I have 5 published books which support "International, and expect 3 to 5 more in a week. All are by different authors/publishers. I just posted a Google images link. two IHC "History" documents, Navistar's history link, other IHC documents, over seven published books, and some links. They are in the first "Extended content".
Eddaido has gotten mind-numbing numbers from Australia, how can there be any doubt about there? They are the second "Extended content".
One oppose has offered three guides by the same author which have not been checked even by him. I will assume that it/(they???) supports him. The only source shown by any oppose so far. Do different books by the same author count separately?
I believe We have shown that "International" is the name that they are commonly known as.
International Harvester General Catalog No. 20. International Harvester. 1920. pp. 336a-342. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Section "International Motor Truck" does not have the word "Harvester" in it.
Historical Facts About Early International Harvester Automotive Vehicles. International Harvester. 1947. p. 2. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Page 2 paragraph 2: "Beginning with the Model A, a metal "IHC" monogram was attached...tank. From 1914 until the present all International Harvester vehicles have carried the name "International"".
History and Development of International Harvester. International Harvester. 1976. pp. 14–15. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Page 14: "the design of the International truck..."the present International truck"..."International had become". Page 15: "International trucks"..."Modern Internationals"..."the International 4x4"..."of International trucks". These pages use "Harvester" and "the Company" to talk about plants, not trucks. Page 18-26 all picture captions say "International". Sammy D III (talk) 22:48, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
"International Harvester". Springfield Ohio History.net. 2009. Retrieved 9 October 2017. is about the IHC/Navistar truck plant. It talks about the reorganization. The last sentence is: "Navistar International Corporation continues to manufacture...under the International brand name". Sammy D III (talk) 02:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Davies, Peter J. (2000). The World Encyclopedia of Trucks. Lorenz Books. ISBN0-7548-0518-2. Page 401 is International Harvester, Melbourne, Australia. "International Harvester", "ACCO" (or is that a model?), "Seddon Atkinson", "International Australia", "ENASA", "ITAL", and "Iveco" are in the text as corporations but do not relate to individual trucks (ACCO?). Truck image is an ACCO G2350 which has a visible S International logo RF. In the text is International truck ACCO G(?) and International 7600. International Transtar 4670 image has International across the grille. But this is Australia, I don't know them.
Page 402-403 International Harvester, Chicago, Illinois, USA,. McCormack, Deering, all the Australian companies, and Navistar are in the text as corporations but do not relate to individual trucks. All trucks in the text are International, International's, or just model numbers. None have Harvester. Text says "the International name badge was adopted in 1914" but I disagree, it was used by IHC in 1908. Maybe they are talking about a physical sign? But it is a ref, so we should debate 1908 vs. 1914 start. First pic is "International Harvester's early". Then to "International's" XL series cabovers have Int'l on LF and L door. Transtar cabover has Int'l over grille. Three have no clear name. Many of these pics have the IHC logo clearly visible, but that is already acknowledged.
Motor's Truck and Diesel Repair Manual (26 ed.). Motor. 1973. ISBN0-910992-16-9. The index has "International" (915-953) and "International Diesel Engines" (1224-1249). The word "Harvester is never used in the index or either section.
Trucks built for the military are "Internal Harvester Model xxx. Prototypes and civilian types are International or International's, but occasionally some are "IHC's Model".Crismon, Fred W. (2001). Modern U.S. Military Vehicles. MBI Publishing. pp. 93, 94, 113, 129, 148... ISBN0-7603-0526-9. uses International or International's. How about their engines? Doyle, David (2003). Standard catalog of U.S. Military Vehicles. Kraus Publications. pp. 101, 125, 127, 174. ISBN0-87349-508-X. have International Red Diamond 361 or 450.
Wood, Donald F. (1998). American Buses. MBI Publishing. pp. 23, 41, 42, 58, 65, 77, 96, 101, 116, 123, 127, 130. ISBN0-7603-0432-7. uses International or International chassis.
Crismon, Frederick W. (2002), International Trucks (2 ed.), Minneapolis, MN: Victory WW2 Publishing, ISBN0-9700567-2-9 I do not have this book but I call attention to its title.
Chilton's Repair & Tune-up Guide, International Scout, 1967-73. Chilton. 1974. ISBN0801959128. I do not have this book but I call attention to its title.
This link[35] is to a run-of-the mill commercial truck sales site. There are plenty of them. Search "Select a make" for "International" (there is no selection with "Harvester"). Look at the very oldest page (#472 for me). What do professionals who buy and sell trucks call them? Sammy D III (talk) 16:30, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Google images [36] shows all factory Scout manuals are labeled "International". There are also some "international" sites that are confusing, but that is Wikipedia's issue, not people looking for an accurate "International Scout" article. Sammy D III (talk) 19:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Google search for "International trucks" [37] 126,000,000 results. Search for "International Harvester trucks [38] 520,000 results.
A search of Australian newspapers of the 1950s (it is suggested Australia may have been different from about this time, local manufacture in a temporary factory began in 1950) comes up with these results:
International trucks 20,927 records. Click here to view each of these results
International Harvester trucks 524 records. Click here
There is not one mention of Harvester in these pages freshly archived by the National Library of Australia
May 1959 Internationals Harvesters Cavalcade of Trucks . . . Particulars of all International trucks etc may be obtained from . . . [47]
The concept of "legal" vs. "common" name generally applies to companies, not products. See WP:NCCORP. I don't know if these trucks have "official" names or "legal" names that include "Harvester", but if they do then the convention implies omitting "Harvester" in the common-named article title, but then including "Harvester" in the boldfaced title shown in the lead sentence. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Sir, I believe the title should be accurate to the specific vehicle that the article is about. I can source IHC copywrite documents for almost every model that IHC has made using the name "International". I can show common useage. I can not get anyone to read or address any one of my sources. No oppose here has acknowledged that they have even seen one. Thank you. Sammy D III (talk) 12:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Remember the guidance given in the template at the top of this discussion, to keep discussion succinct and civil. Neutral closing administrators do not generally appreciate needing to wade through verbose arguments and talk of prejudice, cheap shots, etc.
Generally vehicles are listed by make and model. The question here is what the name of the make is. The company name may be different entirely. For example General Motors or GM is not the name of any specific make, though GMC comes close.
Note that in 1985–86 the "Harvester" name was dropped when International Harvester renamed itself Navistar International. You might expect model years 1981–84 to include "Harvester" in the make name, but they dont. wbm1058 (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
GM removed GM badges from their vehicles for marketing reasons explained in this article. Nobody would ever call a Buick Regal a GM Regal simply because it had a GM badge on it. I think the iH badge could reasonably be thought of in the same way, although this isn't a completely analogous situation as Buick has its own distinct "three shields" badge and is a distinctly different name than "General Motors", while "International" is simply a shortened name and doesn't have its own unique logo badge. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Comparing sources
Sources supporting "International" only
Seventy-five years of IHC brochures for their trucks are here. After 1911 "International" is used in trucks without "Harvester". A rare exception is some late model Scouts.
International Harvester General Catalog No. 20. International Harvester. 1920. pp. 336a-342. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Section "International Motor Truck" does not have the word "Harvester" in it.
"A History of International Trucks (PDF copy of this article)". International Harvester Company, Chicago, Illinois. April 25, 1961. Retrieved September 19, 2017. The first paragraph of the second page ends with "and the trade name "International" was not bestowed until 1914".
History and Development of International Harvester. International Harvester. 1976. pp. 14–15. Retrieved 8 October 2017. Page 14: "the design of the International truck..."the present International truck"..."International had become". Page 15: "International trucks"..."Modern Internationals"..."the International 4x4"..."of International trucks". These pages use "Harvester" and "the Company" to talk about plants, not trucks. Page 18-26 all picture captions say "International".
"Navistar, Who we are, Heritage". Navistar. 2016. Retrieved 9 October 2017. This is Navistar's own history. They refer to trucks as "International". From 1972 (IHC) until present (Navistar) they show "International ®".
"International Harvester". Springfield Ohio History.net. 2009. Retrieved 9 October 2017. is about the IHC/Navistar truck plant. It talks about the reorganization. The last sentence is: "Navistar International Corporation continues to manufacture...under the International brand name".
Burness, Tad (1985). American Truck & Bus Spotter's Guide 1920-1985. Motorbooks International. pp. 215–250. ISBN0-87938-198-1. has "IHC Chicago" under the section title. Page 226 and 229 label the hood ornament logos as "IH". Everything else is "International", "International Trucks", or "International Motor trucks".
Crismon, Fred W. (2001). Modern U.S. Military Vehicles. MBI Publishing. pp. 93, 94, 113, 129, 148... ISBN0-7603-0526-9. shows that trucks built for the military are "Internal Harvester Model xxx. Prototypes and civilian types are "International" or "International's", but occasionally some are "IHC's Model".
Davies, Peter J. (2000). The World Encyclopedia of Trucks. Lorenz Books. ISBN0-7548-0518-2. Page 401 is International Harvester, Melbourne, Australia. In the text "International Harvester" is repeatedly used as a company, but trucks are "International". Page 402-403 International Harvester, Chicago, Illinois, USA. Text says "the International name badge was adopted in 1914". All trucks after the "Auto Buggy" are "International", "International's", or just model numbers.
Foster, Patrick (2015). International Harvester Trucks, The Complete History. Motorbooks. ISBN978-0-7603-4860-4. This history of the company uses "International Harvester", "International", "IH", "Navistar", and "the company" as names of companies. All trucks after the "Auto Wagon" are "International" or model only. Page 172 (about the Navistar name change): "The vehicles themselves would be known as International trucks, as always".
Mroz, Albert (1996). The Illustrated Encyclopedia of American Trucks and Commercial Vehicles. Krause. pp. 206–212. ISBN0-87341368-7. The first three paragraphs of the section "International" tell of early history. The last sentence of the third paragraph is "In 1914, the IHC was superseded with the name International". The word "Harvester" is not used again. The Navistar reorganization is in this section.
Wood, Donald F. (1998). American Buses. MBI Publishing. pp. 23, 41, 42, 58, 65, 77, 96, 101, 116, 123, 127, 130. ISBN0-7603-0432-7. uses "International" or "International chassis".
Motor's Truck and Diesel Repair Manual (26 ed.). Motor. 1973. ISBN0-910992-16-9. index has "International" (915-953) and "International Diesel Engines" (1224-1249). The word "Harvester is never used in the index or either section.
This link[48] is to a run-of-the mill commercial truck sales site. There are plenty of them. Search "Select a make" for "International" (there is no selection with "Harvester"). Look at the very oldest page (#472 for me). What do professionals who buy and sell trucks call them?
Google images [49] shows all factory Scout manuals are labeled "International". There are also some "international" sites that are confusing, but that is Wikipedia's issue, not people looking for an accurate "International Scout" article.
Google search for "International trucks" [50] 126,000,000 results. Search for "International Harvester trucks [51] 520,000 results.
Sources supporting "International Harvester"
(Sources supporting "International Harvester" could be inserted here)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
A new Summary
Latest comment: 7 years ago6 comments3 people in discussion
for the detail please use the diffs from the view history page
Apologies to Sammy D III for no detail in the later stages but please be assured Sammy D II supports the change.
— International trucks without the Harvester
01:39, 5 September 2017 Eddaido — Omit inserted Harvester from International truck categories
13:07, 5 September 2017 Sammy D III — Year i.d. Not always easy
13:24, 5 September 2017 Eddaido — poss. Solution = year model introduced
21:59, 5 September 2017 Sammy D III — comment on current category names
22:39, 5 September 2017 Eddaido — more about year i.d.
23:24, 5 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
23:49, 5 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
15:29, 6 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
—
— Harvester pt 2
: 19:14, 6 September 2017 Sammy D III — Trucks in the US
19:24, 6 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
19:43, 6 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
20:50, 6 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
00:35, 7 September 2017 Eddaido — chat
01:14, 7 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
01:28, 7 September 2017 Eddaido — chat
15:24, 7 September 2017 Sammy D III — this is Wikiproject trucks and nobody seems to care about our discussion
21:03, 7 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
00:35, 8 September 2017 Eddaido — new topic on Commons Categories for Discussion
19:07, 8 September 2017 Sammy D III — chat
08:58, 9 September 2017 Eddaido — chat
—
— Are International Harvester trucks branded "International"?
19 September 2017 Sammy D III — A summary of discusson on Commons Categories for Discussion
14:17, 19 September 2017 Sammy D III — A summary of discusson on Commons Categories for Discussion
18:35, 20 September 2017 Sammy D III — ditto
23:38, 20 September 2017 Eddaido — Practice in Australia
23:42, 20 September 2017 Eddaido — ditto
17:46, 22 September 2017 Mr.choppers — noted use of series in the body of an advertisement
—
—
17:47, 22 September 2017 Mr.choppers — Let's focus this discussion
17:47, 22 September 2017 Mr.choppers — ditto
17:49, 22 September 2017 Mr.choppers — Practice in Australia
18:41, 22 September 2017 Sammy D III — Agrees with Mr.choppers
08:09, 24 September 2017 SteveCof00 — Summary by SteveCof00 and note of use of name (no Harvester)
12:14, 24 September 2017 Sammy D III — IH logo is a logo. If International Harvester is used it should be followed by "Company"
—
— Requested move 25 September 2017
00:00, 25 September 2017 Sammy D III — details of requested move
03:04, 25 September 2017 Wbm1058 — move refactored for technical reasons
11:43, 25 September 2017 Wbm1058 — explanation
12:58, 25 September 2017 Wbm1058 — explanation
—
— Survey
: 15:55, 25 September 2017 Sammy D III — Support
22:45, 25 September 2017 MfortyoneA — Oppose but see immediately below
22:46, 25 September 2017 MfortyoneA — ditto
00:46, 26 September 2017 Sammy D III — response to MfortyoneA who seems to have misunderstood the topic under discussion
11:53, 26 September 2017 Sammy D III —
12:11, 26 September 2017 Steve Lux, Jr — Oppose - its a legal name.
12:36, 26 September 2017 Kierant — Support
13:05, 26 September 2017 Sammy D III —
13:13, 26 September 2017 Sammy D III —
14:09, 26 September 2017 Mr.choppers — Support
14:12, 26 September 2017 Sammy D III —
19:47, 26 September 2017 Wbm1058 —
17:25, 28 September 2017 Sammy D III — Its about the name of the trucks
17:43, 28 September 2017 Steve Lux, Jr — the brand is "International Harvester" why is this such an issue?
18:38, 28 September 2017 Steve Lux, Jr —
19:05, 28 September 2017 Sammy D III —
00:48, 29 September 2017 Sammy D III —
02:38, 29 September 2017 Eddaido — Support
15:34, 30 September 2017 Sammy D III —
15:36, 30 September 2017 Sammy D III —
10:14, 2 October 2017 Zawl — Oppose (editor since blocked? See below 19:58 5 October)
10:18, 2 October 2017 Eddaido — (reponse to Zawl) CommonName is International trucks
10:20, 2 October 2017 Eddaido —
12:05, 2 October 2017 Sammy D III — Would Zawl like to review his opinion?
12:22, 2 October 2017 Sammy D III —
16:36, 2 October 2017 Sammy D III —
17:14, 3 October 2017 Sammy D III —
03:10, 4 October 2017 DanTD — because its been Harvester long before the internet existed
07:03, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III — not so
07:40, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III — not so
08:36, 4 October 2017 Eddaido — (for DanTD)Images of ads from 1939 and 1940 without the word Harvester
10:30, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III —
15:21, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III — more response to Steve Lux
17:10, 4 October 2017 Steve Lux, Jr — Still opposes
20:33, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III —
20:45, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III —
21:44, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III —
22:28, 4 October 2017 Sammy D III — response to Steve Lux
12:13, 5 October 2017 Steve Lux, Jr —
19:58, 5 October 2017 Sammy D III — noted Zawl out of play
20:11, 5 October 2017 SteveCof00 — Oppose: Commonname
20:52, 5 October 2017 Sammy D III — rebuttal / refutation of SteveCof00
20:58, 5 October 2017 Sammy D III —
00:03, 6 October 2017 Sammy D III —
00:27, 7 October 2017 Sammy D III —
03:20, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — This is a Product name not a company name. details sources supporting International Harvester Scout**
10:49, 7 October 2017 Amakuru — Oppose for consistency
11:41, 7 October 2017 Sammy D III — rebuttal of Amakuru
—
— Sources
12:38, 7 October 2017 Sammy D III —
13:57, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — details sources supporting International Harvester Scout** inconsistent use may have been test
14:48, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — truck Blue Book never includes International
15:11, 7 October 2017 Sammy D III —
15:17, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — GM used a badge like IH but its a Buick Regal not a GM Regal
15:19, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — GM removed the GM badges for marketing reasons
18:49, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — difficult to accommmodate link between bus and truck chassis
18:53, 7 October 2017 Wbm1058 — difficult to accommmodate link between bus and truck chassis
Nice summary. I'm curious, if the actual name is clear (while originally instinctively opposed, I then looked at some of the original sources from various decades and found that IHC have almost always referred to their trucks as Internationals - the logo is a red herring), then does common name trump it? Mr.choppers | ✎ 16:11, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think it's right to call it a red herring; there was never any intent by the company to mislead its customers. As I mentioned in the discussion section above, I think it turns on whether you think of the logo as a company logo or a brand logo. Note that GM once put their "mark of excellence" badge on their cars. The difference is that you always knew that was the company logo because they also used brand logo badges like bow-ties and three-shields. Here, the question is murkier because there isn't a separate brand badge for iH trucks. On the other hand they rarely spelled out "International Harvester" in their spelled-out brand badges (as opposed to the logos). You just see single-word "International" badges. Now, I'm trying to think of a motor vehicle brand name that is two or more words long. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Restrict it to a few closely-related articles... say at least three but five at most.
Relate the rationale clearly to the article title policy, in particular the nutshell summary Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent.
Refrain strictly from personal attacks. This policy is being generally ignored in recent times I know, but ignoring it doesn't ever help to produce consensus in my experience.
In particular, let the past go. Misunderstandings happen. Consensus can change. We move forward.
I think "Scout" is excellent. (EDIT: maybe a problem, some around 1980ish were advertised as IH). It might also hook up with Travelall and PUs somehow. Most 1960-1980 HD trucks also put names over their numbers, Loadstar, Fleetstar, Transtar, etc. Anything with a name would not have recognition problems, correct? Sammy D III (talk) 15:43, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
If Scouts were occasionally advertised as IHs, so much the better. Seeking problems is better than trying to evade them. This way the title will be more stable. Mr.choppers | ✎ 05:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
From now I will try to do only information when I think it is wanted. For either position. No more butting in.
I have not seen inside International Harvester Scout: The Complete Illustrated History (brand new book). The cover implies "International Harvester Scout", but Foster (2015) implied "International Harvester Trucks". Banks (2017) could be a published source for "Harvester".
Yeah, I was thinking you would avoid the models where any contrary company adverts were found, and save those for a later round. My suggestion was to put up International Harvester S-Series first. There was a two or three year period 1986–88 after the corporate name change and before the introduction of the second generation Navistar International 4000- and 8000-Series where it would be flat-out wrong to call the trucks produced by Navistar International "International Harvester S-Series" – perhaps you could say "the 1987 Navistar International S-Series", but Wikipedia never does that, that I've seen. If "1987 International S-Series" is a sufficiently recognizable name for a truck built by Navistar, then why wouldn't "1985 International S-Series" be a sufficiently recognizable name for a truck produced by International Harvester? I've asked that question multiple times, and as yet no one has even attempted to state their rationale for that. You could include any other models whose production overlapped the 1986 corporate name change. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:56, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
The real problem here is that the company name is more distinct than the brand name. This has resulted in there being some basis for the WP:COMMONNAME argument, but redirects help with that. Mr.choppers | ✎ 14:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
"MMC" logo example on a Mitsubishi
(feel free to move this elsewhere) The company International Harvester marketed trucks under the International name. There has been any number of period brochures presented in support, across the decades and from different countries. Frederick W. Crismon's seminal work is titled "International Trucks." While Eddaido and Sammy D III claim that calling them "International Harvester" is unique to Wikipedia, there are a lot of others that do to, though. At least one of these titles includes "Harvester" as the model name, but the majority do not. Also see the titles listed here.
The fact is, "International" all by itself is a bit vague. "International Harvester trucks" makes it clear what we are talking about, whereas "International trucks" lends itself to misinterpretation. This is a reason to keep the longer name, and also explains why some sources use the longer name. BUT it is incorrect and thus inconsistent with our naming policies. The logo is completely irrelevant. Mitsubishi used an MMC (Mitsubishi Motors Corporation) logo for years but it doesn't mean that their vehicles go by the entire name.
Now I know that people don't seem to concerned with finding out the actual situation (WP:NOTTRUTH), but when things are fuzzy then I think that reality can provide a guiding light in how to approach sources. As a thought experiment, pretend that the article was titled International Scout and you wanted it renamed to "International Harvester Scout." What would you do, and what supporting evidence is there? I was originally in the IH faction but changed my mind after looking at the material. Mr.choppers | ✎ 14:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Some word about sources only:
This is a talk page, not an article. If "I say so" is an argument then shouldn't thousands hundreds of manufacturer's documents also be? Will people specifically not check sources because they are primary?
The seven published books sources are stretching it, I would consider them as five. Plus IH shop manuals, how many separate sources are they? (I would think one per publisher.) I just couldn't find much.
(EDIT) One of the (few?) recent books is International Harvester Trucks, The Complete History (Foster 2015)(scroll down). This history of the company uses "International Harvester", "International", "IH", "Navistar", and "the company" as names for the company. All trucks after the "Auto Wagon" are "International" or model only. Page 172 (about the Navistar name change): "The vehicles themselves would be known as International trucks, as always".
How important are links? Eddiado has a zillion. He has drained the Australian archives and newspapers. Many link to individual documents. Australia is not the US but they are very big-time. Can you hook different markets together? Heads up, I have come across two that picked "International" out of "International Harvester", but in context they were talking about the company.
How important are searches? I only did a couple Google ones but others have done some N-search thing. And of course there are Eddiado's zillion.
It's better to count the sources rather than the sources' writings. International Harvester, the company, is one source, Today's Trucking would be another source, Transportation (journal) another, Truckin' Magazine, Businessweek, etc. You could also count different authors as different sources. Checking sources over time, to see if they were consistent in their usage, is also helpful. But to show 50 marketing or service items produced by the company in the same year would be rather redundant. To avoid the risk of drawing conclusions based on cherry-picked sources, the Google Ngram Viewer (the N-search thing) is helpful because it is a computerized aggregation of all sources which have been scanned by Google, so can helpful in showing which name(s) are the most commonly used throughout a wide variety of sources. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:55, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Summary
Latest comment: 7 years ago8 comments4 people in discussion
Andrewa enjoins us to consider Wikipedia:Article titles and to recognise that Article titles should be:
recognizable an International truck is the name used by those familiar with the subject. Despite some unsupported claims adding Harvester is a recent fudging.
concise removing Harvester must make the name more concise
natural International truck is the natural name used in all its main markets. I suspect few if any were ever sold in Europe where unfamiliarity might now encourage the use of the extra word
precise —what else among trucks might be an "international truck" and so might be confused with this brand name?
consistent Harvester is not used throughout International Harvester's truck range, nor is Motor in Ford trucks
Is "the name used by those familiar with the subject" a good idea (or WP link)? I thought that a major problem was that people who are familiar with the subject couldn't take a wider view. Would the average reader be looking for IH history or the name on the grille? (Who is the average reader?)
The mistake in HDs is from the very start, they were made as IH. I tried to get the first editor, but he doesn't come around very often anymore.
International trucks could be a truck show from around the world. You probably have the most "international trucks" on the planet, looks like you have bought everything. And number only models could be anything. I think that is real thing. Sammy D III (talk) 14:11, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I think of an "international truck", in a generic sense, as for example, a truck shipping manufactured goods from Monterrey, Mexico to San Antonio, Texas. That would be international shipping, a redirect to freight transport. Yet International truck has been a stable redirect to Navistar International since 2005, and as yet nobody has felt the need to place a hatnote to freight transport at the top of the Navistar International article. There are just two links to International truck, and both of them are hitting the intended target. So the idea that people might be confused about the meaning of the term seems dubious at best. It's likely that where the term is used, the meaning will be made clear by the context in which it's used. Making International a capitalized proper noun should generally be a sufficient hint that international shipping by truck is not the meaning. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:29, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
We are also not trying to make an article called "International trucks," rather we are naming specific articles such as International S-series or whathaveyou. "International trucks" might become an issue in Commons but that is a separate conversation. Mr.choppers | ✎ 19:13, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
So if one argument is that "International" is not sufficiently unambiguous to be a primary topic name for IH trucks, that begs the question of how the primary topic for L-series is temporary Chinese trains !
Chinese trains also primary topic for Z-series – see Z Series (disambiguation) for car models that are secondary in importance to the trains. I disagree with that.
15:42, 25 June 2009 ShulaCuse moved page International Harvester Paystar to International Paystar (International Harvester no longer exists as a company. The PayStar is produced by Navistar and sold under their truck brand, International. The article does mention that the truck was designed by International Harvester in the 1970's, this should suffice)
Yes, it's a longer name, but not as long as International Harvester Newport series (nobody has noticed that's a red link and created that redirect). Newport Series is a series of cabover trucks that were produced by International Harvester and its corporate successor Navistar. Introduced in 1981 as the replacement for the Transtar II COE. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:44, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
Article merge
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Hello! I am not sure how active this WikiProject is lately (given the "semi-active" tag), but I'm seeking one or more editors to review an expanded and improved article for TravelCenters of America (TA), which I am submitting on behalf of the company. There are several issues with the existing article, which I've outlined in more detail on the article's talk page. For those who may not be familiar, TA is the largest operator of truck stops and travel centers in the United States.
I'm curious, are any WikiProject Trucks participants willing to come take a look at the expanded and updated "History" section I've proposed here? Thanks in advance for any help. Inkian Jason (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.
Portals are being redesigned.
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At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.
Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.
This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Trucks. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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