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New Articles (August 5 to August 12)

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Latest comment: 13 days ago9 comments6 people in discussion
Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 02:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

August 12

An issue with the Wikimedia servers meant that the 1.0 bot couldn't get any data all week... so now we get the whole week dumped into one day. It got a little confused on page moves (as they're recorded as happening at the same time), so hopefully everything is sorted out. --PresN 02:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Before anyone complains again, know that I've given Beqwk a final warning for churning out these sloppy stubs. That said, don't let that deter you from taking action on the articles if anyone sees it fit. Sergecross73 msg me 03:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Sergecross73:Hey man, i'm just trying to rescue said stubs by finding reviews to establish their overall notability X'D Roberth Martinez (talk) 03:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's totally fine, go for it. Thank you for helping. Sergecross73 msg me 10:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • That console article (which is about consoles to enter various commands within a game engine) seems to lack notability, though the idea of such consoles should be documented somewhere, I'm not sure. --Masem (t) 04:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Stubs might be ugly, but they are not against policy, and the rate of creation is not "large scale" as defined by WP:MASSCREATE. The articles are fully sourced, the patrol log shows that they are passing NPP, and I can't identify any that was nominated for deletion, BLAR'd, or merged. A threat to sanction them seems inappropriate at this point. Charcoal feather (talk) 11:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm well aware stubs aren't against policy. But thats not solely the problem, nor did I say they were. The problem is that they're sloppy stubs. Some aren't even written in paragraph form, but more as a series of bullet points one would jot down in efforts of preparing to write an article. And many aren't exactly home runs with notability when under scrutiny. Lots of passing mentions and iffy sources. Repeatedly creating problematic content despite warnings is a form of disruptive editing. Please also note that I issued it because they've completely ignored muktiple requests to slow down/be more careful, and that when they actually use WP:AFC, they're not getting published. Sergecross73 msg me 12:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I was thinking that some of the stubs could be merged/redirected to a suitable article, or even PRODed/AFDed. Stubs are alright, but only if they are notable and have a low chance of being merged/redirected/PROD/AFD. I don't plan to do any of that to Beqwk's articles as I am not quite experienced. For example, Palia may have been a stub at first, but that's just because the game is notable. My understanding is that if the article has over 1500 words (the criteria for DYK), then it's no longer a stub, but that varies. JuniperChill (talk) 12:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra Merge Discussion

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Latest comment: 14 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

A merge discussion for the pages Pokémon Sword and Shield: The Isle of Armor and Pokémon Sword and Shield: The Crown Tundra is currently open at this page. I'd greatly appreciate further responses in order to determine a wider consensus on this subject. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 03:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Dispute in Grand Theft Auto: The Trilogy – The Definitive Edition on whether to be more specific or vague

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Latest comment: 7 days ago13 comments4 people in discussion

I have entered an editing dispute with @IceWelder: over whether or not to specify which character had the Confederate flag removed from their in-game attire (a removal questioned by a writer in their criticism, which is described in the reception section). I am bringing it here without turning it into an edit war. While I haven’t found anything in the MOS about this, I believe that specifying the character as Phil Cassidy from GTA Vice City is more specific, concise, and not vague compared to “a character”, and is reasonable to include. (For the record, no other character in GTA 3, VC, or San Andreas has the flag on their clothes.) It gives the specific example for people to look up on their own accord without being excessive detail. IW believes that because the character isn’t mentioned elsewhere in the Wikipedia article, it’s completely irrelevant and specific to include, despite “a character” being too vague and unspecific. I think such vagueness should be avoided, and it’s not unreasonable to specify. What does the WikiProject think here? DrewieStewie (talk) 17:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

We generally aim to write Wikipedia be understandable in a stand-alone context. As in, general audiences - anyone who can read, should be able to understand an article either through the articles text itself, or WP:WIKILINKs to other Wikipedia articles. It's for anyone to read and understand, not just GTA fans or gamers.
In that respect, if the character isn't mentioned in any other point in the article, then it doesn't make any sense to name drop him here, as the reader has no knowledge of who the character is. A stand-alone name with no context or info does not help the reader. IceWelder has the right idea. Sergecross73 msg me 19:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
There is context though: the character had previously been wearing the flag in a specific game of the trilogy, but is no longer in the remaster. The character is prominently mentioned in the article for the prequel Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories (but not the Vice City article since the Wikipedia plot doesn’t go into detail on the Asset missions/heist storyline), so perhaps wikilinking the character could go to the Vice City Stories plot to satisfy that need. Even if the subplot/Phil were included in the original VC article, the plots of the games aren’t in the Trilogy article because it’s redundant to list them when the original source materials have their own articles to list it, so that reception section is one of the few, if any, places to mention the characters when relevant (which Phil is here). I think avoiding specific examples without clarification of what the critic is referring to is “dumbing it down” so to speak, is insulting to the readers intellect, and should be avoided at all costs. DrewieStewie (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
But tacking on the name "Phil" doesn't add anything to that message. Nothing is lost by its removal because the reader doesn't even know who Phil to begin with.
Think of it this way. If Cloud Strife is out there rocking a confederate flag, you'd mention him by name, because he's mentioned up and down the Final Fantasy 7 article. But there's no reason to name drop Chelsea for doing the same thing, since general audiences don't know she's the little girl who's found in the third building on the left in Junon with 2 lines of dialogue, nor is Wikipedia likely to discuss her otherwise in the article. Sergecross73 msg me 20:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Unalike comparison, Phil is a major character in Vice City/VCS (voiced by Gary Busey, might I add)that reoccurs in a minor role in III/Liberty city stories. Not Cloud or Tommy Vercetti level, but definitely not that insignificant to the game’s story. I see it as a lost opportunity to learn if a casual reader doesn’t know. For instance, searching on Google for “Phil Cassidy” instead of “character with confederate flag in GTA” (remember, the status quo doesn’t specify which game in the trilogy). DrewieStewie (talk) 20:53, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
This response misses the point entirely, which is that the character is not mentioned anywhere in the article, so the reader has no understanding in the who, or importance of, what it means to be "Phil" in the first place. If you're requiring the reader to "Google something", you're not writing Wikipedia articles correctly. Sergecross73 msg me 21:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Isn’t “a character” worse in that regard, given that wikilinking to Vice City Stories describes Phil Cassidy? DrewieStewie (talk) 21:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure I follow, but I also dont object to just trimming it back to "instances of confederate flags were removed from the game" either. Sergecross73 msg me 21:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps. Or, maybe even similar to how they have a picture of Denise Robinson’s character model in both the original/the remaster to highlight criticisms of poorer quality, we could do the same with Phil for the flag? If it qualifies fair use, that is. DrewieStewie (talk) 22:46, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
It feels like it's going to be hard to justify an image on such a minor, trivial aspect of the game. I don't see that sticking either... Sergecross73 msg me 12:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Would "a character named Phil Cassidy" work as a compromise? QuicoleJR (talk) 20:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Which game and depiction would need to be applied too, given that the article concerns a trilogy of three games, two of them which contain different depictions of the character fifteen storyline years apart. DrewieStewie (talk) 20:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I basically agree with Sergecross73. If a character is only mentioned once, it doesn't need much detail. We would handle it differently if multiple sources were talking about multiple aspects of that character, because then it would (a) deserve more WP:WEIGHT, and (b) need to be defined clearly so we can refer back to that character multiple times. But if it's just one comment about one character, there's no need to go into detail. An encyclopedia article is summary style and people can read individual reviews if they want to see what one source said about one character. Shooterwalker (talk) 11:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

New Articles (August 13 to August 18)

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Latest comment: 7 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 13:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

August 13

August 14

August 15

August 16

August 17

August 18

Renaming 3DO

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Latest comment: 2 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Talk:3DO Interactive Multiplayer#Renaming? Sceegt (talk) 20:43, 20 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Would be cool if we could get some more input here. Not much in the way of discourse, just not much in the way of input at all, for what would be kind of a big deal move. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 15:19, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Appearance over Concept and creation: a rant

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Latest comment: 5 days ago6 comments6 people in discussion

So I'm reviewing Boneless Pizzas' Ada Wong, where "Concept and creation" appears above "Appearances". This way of organizing character articles seems to be the norm, and that norm doesn't make sense to me.

Most of a character's bio revolves around the fiction surrounding them: the world they live, the people they interact with, etc. In the "Appearance" section, all of this fiction stuff is explained as necessary, for the sake of better understanding the character's role in the game. In "Concept and creation", these fictional details are glazed over because this section is about the character itself, as well as their real-world development. In this context, "Appearances" should come first, but it doesn't. In the context of Ada Wong, an "Umbrella" is mentioned in Concept and Creation but is not explained (this is not Pizza's fault). It is, however, explained in the next section very beautifully that's its a pharmaceutical company. If this explanation were to be moved up to the section above, it would complicate developer info with fictional explanations. These sections should be separate, but Appearances should be first for the sake of understanding narrative without losing the reader. When people read articles, they are dominantly reading top-down instead of jumping around.

Jesse Pinkman and George Costanza organize their articles this way. In fact, so do video game articles when they put "Plot" above "Development". So why not the characters? Is there some better reason for why we do it this way that I have trouble seeing? Panini! • 🥪 16:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

You make some good points. I didn't have a hand in creating the format, just replicated in the few character articles I created because that's what I had always observed elsewhere. I assumed we just wanted to kick the article off with more encyclopedic type content. I think in under-developed articles it can make sense - pre-clean up articles often read like "First Pikachu was in Pokemon Red Then he was in Pokemon Yellow. Then he was in Pokemon Gold. etc etc etc" I don't think that's a particularly great place to start. (Though its not great anywhere either.) But you may have a point, perhaps your order is better in a developed article? Sergecross73 msg me 16:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
It ultimately depends on the character. Like with characters where the plot needs to be front loaded to understand how they were built around it (i.e. Exdeath) it's better to put the plot first. However with other characters like for example fighting game or Overwatch characters, often the plot is secondary and much shorter to their overall development. However in the case of Mario for example if we load the Appearances section first, we're throwing a metric ton at the reader who for a good chunk of the article's start doesn't understand how the character came about let alone evolved. It's case by case, but whichever does should explain concepts to the reader as it introduces them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 19:39, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
This is something I brought up at the FAC for Ada Wong. It makes sense why video games generally start with the Gameplay section over Plot (although even there I think there are cases where we're better off with a film-type synopsis before all else) but a lot of the info in a typical design section will lack a lot of context divorced from the general arc of the game appearances. A compromise is having some sort of Overview section that gives the broad strokes of the character (which the Wong article now essentially does) but it can still be suboptimal. There are certainly some character articles where it is a better choice to have the conception and design details first, but it ain't every single one. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 19:03, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've increasingly been using appearances first, only not doing so if I feel like the concept behind a character deals with complexities that wouldn't feel right in appearances. For example, Pokemon species or Persona 5 characters. Ada Wong doesn't feel like concept first makes sense. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I feel like it should be for consistency. I followed the format from Jill Valentine (Which it went 5FACs). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:17, 21 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

RFC on Asmongold

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Latest comment: 5 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is an RFC you may be interested in on Talk:Asmongold as whether or not to include his name within the article. - Skipple ☎ 01:45, 22 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looking for opinions on sources for a GAN

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Latest comment: 5 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Heyo, I'm currently reviewing Rayman for GA. I found two sources that need additional opinions and would love some additional input at WT:VG/S#GamerInfo.NET and WT:VG/S#Vrutal to resolve them quickly. Regards, IceWelder [✉] 06:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discussion at Talk:Can I Play That?#IGN Reporting

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Latest comment: 3 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Can I Play That?#IGN Reporting on how best to incorporate an IGN piece on Susan Banks, an activist on games accessibility. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 03:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

RSN discussion on Geeks+Gamers

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Latest comment: 2 days ago1 comment1 person in discussion

If anyone is interested see WP:RSN#geeksandgamers.com for potential deprecation. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:37, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Proofreading and review request for DYK

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Latest comment: 1 day ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Umehara ga kimeta has been nominated for DYK. The article is about an Internet meme that was born from a 17-second commentary video of a fighting game tournament. I would appreciate proofreading and review by English speakers who are knowledgeable about video games.--狄の用務員 (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

That article needs a lot of work on its prose. It reads like an advertisement (for a meme of all things.) Sergecross73 msg me 21:37, 24 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for your advice. As for me, I do not intend to write a promotional article at all, but I am afraid that my writing skills are not enough. If someone would be so kind as to improve the article, I would deeply appreciate it. 狄の用務員 (talk) 11:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

sourcing for Fromsoft's game engine

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Latest comment: 9 hours ago10 comments3 people in discussion

While looking into Fromsoftware's game engine, I found that they are using something that is being called Dantelion engine or Dantelion2 engine. The best overview I have found is at http://soulsmodding.wikidot.com/topic:engines but it is self published. There is a mention of Dantelion in this ign article and this site of unknown reliability (I assume low reliability). Is this enough to mention it anywhere (eg, on the Fromsoftware page?) Or, at the very least, could this be enough to put the engine for Fromsoft games as "proprietary"? Gamerevolution list Bloodborne and Dark souls 3 as proprietary directly [1] so I assume at least that one we can set in the infobox. The IGN article lists Elden ring and armored core as being "Dantelion," although it attributes it to a youtube video (but at the same time also seems to assert this fact in its own voice). Also if you read the full IGN source they do make a good case for Armored core and Elden Ring being the same engine, whatever that engine actually is. The linked unknown site directly states that Elden Ring is in-house (ie. proprietarty) and using the so called "Dantelion" engine. I would suggest adding the following sentence to the fromsoftware article "Fromsoftware develops an in house game engine which it uses for many of its games including Bloodborne, Armored Core and Elden Ring." The engine has been referred to as "Dantelion." Or something along these lines. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 04:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

This seems both unnecessary and sketchy to use as a source. Honestly it doesn't matter what the name of Fromsoft's engine is because it's proprietary. It's not helping anyone to know what it's internally called, just a minor piece of trivia better off on FANDOM or the like. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ok, I can hold off on mentioning Dantelion anywhere. Should I find a source for each fromsoft game as being proprietary to add it to the infobox? I listed DS3 and Bloodborne already. If I need a source for each fromsoft game being propriety, would the IGN source count as a source for Elden Ring and armored core 6? Also, I don't agree with the point that it's not helping anyone. By the same vain, we would have to delete all "Development" sections on video games, as they don't help anyone either. Knowing what engine is used for a game tells you something about it's development. I agree that the source may not be strong enough though and does not really have enough detail to necessarily make it worth while to mention it. If the source mentioned some of the engine's features for example I would have a different response. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 05:13, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree that knowing what a game's engine is is helpful. But simply "proprietary" can be used, as its internal name is not particularly relevant except in certain special cases where it is still heavily known and used as a tool (i.e. the Creation Engine). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 05:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@ZxcvbnmI think we basically agree then. What about the other DS games and elden ring? Can I list them as proprietary without a source? Can I use that IGN article as a source that they are proprietary? J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 05:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
The IGN article cites Zullie the Witch, who is a dataminer but not a reliable source by any metric. Given that they admit to NOT actually doing their own research about the name of the engine, or even asking for a second opinion, much less contacting Fromsoft like a standard news outlet might do, I think that at most we can conclude Fromsoft uses a unique engine of some kind without getting too much into speculation. Still, I don't think it's even good enough for older games, since it just points vaguely at a time period they used such an engine. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Zxcvbnm Thanks. I mostly expect that to be the answer. In the meantime, I found this article from koreaherald [2] that says Elden Ring is proprietary, so I used that instead. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 06:51, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
To clarify, engines should only be named in the infobox if they can be wikilinked (i.e., they have their own independent article, or redirect to a dedicated section) per template documentation. It may be worth mentioning the proprietary engine in prose, but not in the infobox. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 22:23, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
"|engine = Proprietary" is Ok in the infobox though right? Thats what I did for Elden Ring, DS3 and BloodBorne. I've seen |engine = Proprietary on a lot of games. to me it makes sense to do that. I'm not sure if by "It may be worth mentioning the proprietary engine in prose, but not in the infobox" you mean not to mention a specific proprietary engine (eg. "Dantelion") or not to list "proprietary" itself in the infobox, which I think is useful info. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 23:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
Ok, looking at Template:Infobox_video_game#Parameters, it seems like we should not even list "proprietary" as an engine. This doesn't make much sense to me but I'll remove the one's I set to proprietary for now. J2UDY7r00CRjH (talk) 23:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

New Articles (August 19 to August 25)

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Latest comment: 10 hours ago4 comments4 people in discussion
Main page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/New article announcements
 A listing of all articles newly added to the Video Games Wikiproject (regardless of creation date). Generated by v3.20 of the RecentVGArticles script and posted by PresN. Bug reports and feature requests are appreciated. --PresN 14:36, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

August 19

August 20

August 21

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August 24

August 25

@PresN: It probably wasn't picked up because it was a page move rather than a proper creation but Pokémon Sword and Shield Expansion Pass was created by Pokelego999 and me on August 25. CaptainGalaxy 16:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Could Fortnite seasonal events be slimmed down in any way? It seems like a disproportionate amount of detail relative to the number of sources covering the everyday goings-on of Fortnite's live service. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

There are definitely parts of the narrative that can be trimmed, but aspects such as the promotional crossovers actually do get well sourced in the media, and I was planning to make a side column for just listing those, so that the story dude can be slashed further. Masem (t) 21:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Devil Survivor duology

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Latest comment: 5 hours ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Hi, all. This is just a line to let anyone interested know that I've just finished/had to finish an expansion and rewrite of Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor and its sequel. I thought I would be able to take them further than I have done, but I've burned out and need to put them aside (plus I've no idea how much work the GAN for SMTV will be alongside real life commitments), but it should be easy for someone else to pick them up and take them the rest of the way if they'd like. DS1 is basically GAN-ready, allowing for the usual tidying and any edits someone might want to make. DS2 still needs its reception sorting out and expanding, and there's no gameplay image, but sources for the former are on its talk page. ProtoDrake (talk) 22:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I can take on DS1. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Second, third, and fourth+ opinions on how to reorganize Mario before I do anything too drastic

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Latest comment: 5 hours ago7 comments7 people in discussion

Mario, as it stands currently, is a crufty mess. At some point the balance shifted from maintaining the cruft to instead working around it. Many sections are bloated with necessary details containing the fun facts of hundreds of different editors, IPs, trolls, and the folk who saw a cool fun fact on YouTube and wanted to make sure everyone else knew it ("uh, actually, Charles Martinet's first role was for a Super Mario-themed pinball game that pre-dates 64 but he wasn't credited ☝️🤓")

I don't feel the need to keep notifying you all about my progress but this one I feel is necessary to ensure I don't get into kerfuffles in the future. Before I start making any major changes to the article as it appears in the mainspace, I want to get additional opinions on how to reorganize the article sections, and go over what each section should cover.

Proposed article layout
  • Characteristics: This sections gives a brief overview of the man, but only to the extent of how he appears in video games. Various developers have done outside canonizing of specifics about his age and stuff, but since there are various iterations and interpretations of Mario this deep of explanation is not only irrelevant, but impossible. This section will discuss physical attributes, relationships to other major characters, and the role he serves in the Mushroom Kingdom. Abilities pertaining to super-like jumping and athleticism are also worth mentioning, including a mention of power-ups.
  • Concept and creation: Development chronology of the origin of the character and how he has evolved over time.
  • History: Any necessary details leading up to how and why he was created, and the exact moment he was. Origin of Miyamoto, the circumstances that led to him being made, and breif info about Donkey Kong just to make give the first conception due weight.
  • Appearance and design: A specific outline of the design as he first appears. Them, it will discuss the evolution of his design over time, but only what's relevant and consistent over a long period, and the interpretations from the various designers that have directly influenced his appearance outside of Miyamoto (ex. Yōichi Kotabe).
  • Gameplay mechanics: his original abilities and how the player interacts with the character. It is going to read a little weird, considering how I'm explaining the concept of running and jumping as one of the original innovations. Any common staples that have been repeated among the franchise and if they have evolved in any way, such as said jumping and power-ups, will be discussed. This section will discuss his transition to 3D and the interpretation from designers who have directly influenced this field (ex. Yoshiaki Koizumi).
  • Voice acting: Mainly just the story of Charles Martinet.
  • In video games: Mario's role in the various video games he stars in, with prominence to the Super Mario series. Any details where major installments deviate from a standard formula in the context of Mario himself, such as an introduced gimmick, would be mentioned here (ex. Cappy).
  • Super Mario series
  • 2D games
  • 3D games
  • Other Super Mario games: 3D Land and World, Mario Maker and Super Mario Run.
  • Other Mario games: This section covers all the RPGs, sports games, puzzle games, party games, kart games, and whatever other ___ games. The outline currently present I'm going to shorten greatly; most of the games here simply use Mario as a font for genres of varying gameplay (such as Mario Kart and Party), so I will instead trim all these sections down to a few examples and explain them in that context. Any games with more depth than that, such the RPG ones, will get special discussion as to what they do differently with the character.
  • In other media: An overview of many important or otherwise notable appearances of Mario outside of the games, giving priority to live-action versions of the character and anything where Mario takes center stage (such as him being the main character). I'm going to limit this section to anything where Nintendo had direct influence, unless if any notable IP-outsourcing exist.
  • Reception: Wish me luck. "Cameos" will be merged somewhere into Reception.
  • Legacy
  • In popular culture: The amount of parodies and unofficial media made surrounding the character are worthy of more discussion. Due weight in mind, some examples help to expand the significance of the character (besides, if some niche Final Fantasy character were to be mentioned in a Saturday Night Live sketch, that would be added to their article in a heartbeat; Mario should not be too big to still recognize the small wins.)

Any content within this article, in any section, that doesn't fit these descriptions will be removed altogether. Any questions, suggestions, or critiques? Panini! • 🥪 23:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Do you have plans to do any of the other characters once Mario is finished? I tried to do Toad a while back, but shelved the project after realizing that it would require rewriting most of the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:15, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I feel a lot of the gameplay discussion can definitely be simplified from what's there. What's in the prose currently illustrates some bits well (like how his 3D movement was planned and the character it was based on) but then there's others that feel better suited for a series article (i.e. the Super Mario Run paragraph has little bearing on him as a character).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 00:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I say use your best judgment but don't fear messing up its current status. The fact that you recognize it as a "crufty mess", unlike the last couple editors to do major work on it, means I your efforts will be a net positive. Sergecross73 msg me 00:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
My only real "gripe" here is to be extremely cautious with "in popular culture". Per WP:INPOPULARCULTURE, "When properly written, such sections can positively distinguish Wikipedia from more traditional encyclopedias. [...] When poorly written or poorly maintained, however, these sections can devolve into indiscriminate collections of trivia or cruft." I'm planning on rewriting Pac-Man (character) further at some point in the future, and my approach to how to handle his appearances (as of right now, at least) was to only go in detail about Pac-Man's appearances that had some sort of relevance to the plot of what he appeared in, with a couple extra examples thrown in to wrap it up with "he's appeared in other stuff too". And this is despite the fact Pac-Man is probably the most referenced video game character in popular culture, possibly surpassing Mario. λ NegativeMP1 01:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
The Mario article as it currently is appears to struggle with WP:INUNIVERSE issues, at some points it seems to treat Mario like a real person. It definitely needs some type of fix or rewrite. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:01, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
The Appearances section seems really awkward, given that there's no overarching narrative structure to the Mario games as a series, and most of them are of the form "Mario saves Peach from Bowser". It may be better to reduct that with pointer to the List of Mario games, though leaving the crossovers and other appearances outside that list as they are. --Masem (t) 02:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
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