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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 40

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Latest comment: 3 years ago by Howard the Duck in topic Anthony Davis Grand Slam
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Latest comment: 4 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I was wondering if a category of the NBPA's vice presidents would be a notable enough category to be featured on a player's wikipedia page? I just need some confirmation before I make this category so it can't get deleted. I belive it could be a notable enough category. Please respond to this as sooon as possible. ֆօʍɛɮօɖʏǟռʏɮօɖʏ05 (talk) 14:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

It would probably be worthwhile to create a Category:National Basketball Players Association people category to include everyone whose notability is in part related to their position in the union. See Category:People by trade union for examples.--User:Namiba 15:12, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
@User:Namiba Makes sense. I had previously created earlier today and I have placed it on CFD to be renamed to National Basketball Players Association people so it can include presidents and vice presidents. ֆօʍɛɮօɖʏǟռʏɮօɖʏ05 (talk) 15:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit dispute at List of basketball players who have scored 100 points in a single game

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Would like this project's input on the article's talk page please. 71.56.244.35 (talk) 02:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Coaching changes help

Latest comment: 4 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion

Help is needed regarding the coaching changes. Phillypaboy123 and some other editors (mainly IP editors) are adding WP:RSBREAKING content as soon as it resurfaces. I tried contacting the mentioned editor, but he/she seems to ignore or does not understand how things work here. Any ideas what can be done about the situation? – Sabbatino (talk) 16:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I only report news with sources, In the 76ers media send pressers to the media. Thats why its called team source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phillypaboy123 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
@Phillypaboy123: I already wrote on your talk page that a transaction is official when the team announces it on its WEBSITE. No other news outlet is reliable. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
The Team does it differently, they have never annouced assistant coaches on their website — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phillypaboy123 (talk • contribs) 17:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
@Phillypaboy123: First of all, please read WP:INDENT before making a reply. Secondly, the teams do announce the signings of head and assistand coaches, general managers, etc. so stop implying otherwise. Just because you cannot find that does not mean that they do not announce it. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
Phillypaboy123: In your edit to Jameer Nelson, this source relies on an anonymous source: "Sources tell NBC Sports Philadelphia ..." Also, the source say "are hiring", which implies its ongoing and not completed; that's WP:OR. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 08:06, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

They talked about many of the hires during a press confenrence — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phillypaboy123 (talk • contribs) 13:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Category:Basketball players by city or town in the United States has been nominated for discussion

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
 

Category:Basketball players by city or town in the United States has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:16, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

NBA transactions

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

There is quite a big number of completely (or not so completely) new registered editors popping up and making edits to players' pages when a rumor or report about their signing, trade, etc. is announced by Wojnarowski, Charania and others. My question would be – is there a way to prevent such editors from making edits? I do understand that a lot of pages would have to be protected and I also assume that WP:ECP would have to be enforced, but is there anything else better that would prevent them from making edits? I know that we have this situation every year, but that is enough in my opinion. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I usually give the editor a {{uw-sportstrans}} warning if they haven't been informed before. If it persists, subsequently give them warnings for unsourced or WP:OR edits, as appropriate. Request a block in extreme cases. For pages, WP:SEMI protection is usually sufficient for incorrect edits; WP:ECP could be needed if it involved non-new editors but ones with < 500 edits. I am not aware of any other options.—Bagumba (talk) 07:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Linking college years in infobox

Latest comment: 4 years ago8 comments5 people in discussion

A certain editor has been linking college years in the infoboxes of the players. Has this ever been discussed? – Sabbatino (talk) 17:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

There is no consensus on this either way. If they are linked, should be the NCAA season not the team season like NBA etc though. Rikster2 (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
The NBA links are to the NBA season, which I would argue is MOS:OVERLINK unless it's to the more relevant team season article instead.—Bagumba (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, soccer bios don't link to seasonal articles in the infobox. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

All but one (NHL) of the North American big 4 leagues link years (haven't check to where) in the infobox... probably another peculiarity that we'd just live with. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:38, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Honestly, I'm not really in favor of linking college years. Doesn't seem necessary. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 21:21, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
What do WP:CBBALL guys think? Howard the Duck (talk) 21:41, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

List of National Basketball Association single-game assists leaders

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

A completely new user just came to List of National Basketball Association single-game assists leaders and decided that the cutoff for the list should be reduced from 22 to 20 assists. After looking at page's history I saw that it could be a sockpuppet of TyrusThomas4lyf (talk · contribs) (most recent was Bossanoven (talk · contribs)) based on the nature of editor's edits. Can anyone help in maintaining the page? – Sabbatino (talk) 18:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I've watchlisted it for now.—Bagumba (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Definition of “official” for an NBA signing

Latest comment: 3 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

I just figured I’d put this in one place so it’s easy to reference since we are in free agent/training camp season. Deals need to be official and complete, not just reported (even by the top reporters). We have already had at least one case this off-season (Bogdan Bogdanović) where the reliable reporters got it wrong - because the deal wasn’t actually done.

Here are different ways a transaction can be considered “official:”

  1. Team issues a press release on their website (for a trade, this can be any of the involved teams so long as it names the player in question)
  2. Team tweets the transaction on one of their official Twitter accounts (some teams have a main account and a “PR” account - both are official)
  3. Team does not issue a press release but adds the player to their official roster page
  4. Transaction appears on the NBA.com transaction wire
  5. The team issues a training camp or final roster with the transaction reflected
  6. In cases of 2-way contracts, the release may appear first on the involved G League team site or Twitter or on the G League transactions page. These also count as official for these cases.

Signings or trades aren’t official when reported by national or beat reporters. They also aren’t official if a player tweets out something about it (“so blessed to get my chance with the Nets”). NBA deals have to be approved by the NBA for salary cap reasons, to ensure no tampering or any league imbalance issues (remember Chris Paul), because the deal is part of another transaction, etc. That’s why teams don’t announce as soon as reporters trying to get the scoop tweet it. Rikster2 (talk) 15:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

One other thing I will point out – teams have different philosophies about reporting transactions. The Pistons are notoriously slow. Other teams don’t announce exhibit 10 deals until they issue a training camp roster. This just is what it is. Rikster2 (talk) 16:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
No objections. Generally, this follows WP:SPORTSTRANS basic theme of not relying on breaking news where the reporters' sources are anonymous. Also in the NBA, "agreed to terms" ≠ "signed". My notable example from this year is Dwight Howard tweeting he was staying in LA, deleting it, then ending up in Philly.[1].—Bagumba (talk) 13:50, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Not really expecting objections - was just trying to make explicit what sources meet the "official" criteria so that editors can be pointed here to understand how this stuff works. I think it is logical that a new or single-use editor wouldn't understand how transactions are handled unless given guidance. Rikster2 (talk) 14:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
OK. Consider adding it somewhere like WP:NBASTYLE, WP:SPORTSTRANS, etc or some new page, where a convenient shortcut can be created for easy reference.—Bagumba (talk) 19:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Training camp example An example from the Pistons is here. It doesn't say whether Anthony Lamb and LiAngelo Ball are non-guaranteed deals or if Exhibit 10 is invovled.—Bagumba (talk) 07:31, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they are on exhibit 10 or non-guaranteed contracts. As of now they are on the Pistons. The rosters will be revised when cuts are made anyway. The issue is that often terms of deals aren't disclosed at all so just include those verifiably on the official roster and then prune accordingly. Summer League is a different animal - those players are never on a roster, training camp or otherwise. They are trying to get a training camp roster invite. Rikster2 (talk) 14:06, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. Was just pointing out that some of the details that "league sources" give for these training camp deals might never be announced by the team.—Bagumba (talk) 17:45, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Lakers roster template - display consensus needed

Latest comment: 3 years ago15 comments6 people in discussion

At Template:Los Angeles Lakers roster, we need consensus on how Marc Gasol’s “from” entry should read. user:Intruder007 changed “Spain” to “Lausanne Collegiate School,” the US high school he attended. My position is that the NBA.com roster says “Spain/FC Barcelona” and the high school career was several years before he was drafted, so it should read “Spain” as it has for years. Obviously a difference of opinion so opinions are needed to reach consensus. I’d point to the difference in how Gasol’s “from” entry at NBA.com reads vs. someone like Dwight Howard. Rikster2 (talk) 03:17, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

And I point out that as there is evidence that Gasol played in the US high school system, the entry should reflect that, independently of what the NBA page says. For comparison take LaMelo Ball, who, just like Gasol, played in the US HS system and then went to play overseas years before being drafted and yet his entry doesn't say "US" or "Illawarra Hawks" Intruder007 (talk) 03:26, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
What are you talking about? His entry says BOTH USA and Illawarra Hawks. Rikster2 (talk) 03:28, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I was talking about the Charlotte Hornets roster template which says SPIRE Academy (OH). Should've clarified there. Intruder007 (talk) 03:39, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Gasol is an international player so we list his birth country. And about Ball? I am not sure, because he was drafted out of the Australian team, but he is not an international player. However, Ball's NBA profile lists the Australian team so that should pribably be listed. – Sabbatino (talk) 04:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
I added "SPIRE Academy (OH)" to Ball's entry after following past similar examples like Terrance Ferguson, Emmanuel Mudiay and Brandon Jennings who all began their careers in international leagues and have their high schools listed on Wikipedia's NBA rosters. Their NBA.com pages (Ferguson, Mudiay, Jennings) do not reference their high school so whatever consensus is reached here would affect those players too. CalDoesIt (talk) 06:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

It used to be that the NBA would either list the the US college (else US HS) the player attended before the draft, else list the player's country if last played outside the NBA before first entering. These days, if they went from HS to an overseas pro team, it lists the pro team. However, for like Chasson Randle, who went to US college and played pro overseas before the NBA, they list his college.[2] We don't have to blindly follow NBA.com, but we should have a rationale to deviate.—Bagumba (talk) 06:59, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

They still list college if the individual played at a US college at any point so I don't think that is in question (Randle a good example). The question really is narrowed down to treatment of high school only and particularly when it is an international player. Rikster2 (talk) 13:15, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
American Jeremy Tyler, who played overseas out of high school before entering the NBA, is listed on NBA.com w/ his pro team Tokyo Apache as "Last attended". There doesn't seem to be a reason to use Gasol's HS instead of his pre-NBA pro team.—Bagumba (talk) 16:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
In another Lakers roster listing at NBA.com, it shows a "School" column with "FC Barcelona", not his US HS, for Gasol.—Bagumba (talk) 08:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Can't we just follow what their NBA.com "Last attended" entry shows? I'm guessing (LOL) this refers to where they last attended at when they were drafted (or not). Chasson Randle entered the draft from Stanford. LaMelo Ball entered the draft from the Illawarra Hawks. Marc Gasol was said to be from FC Barcelona but was actually drafted out of CB Girona. (Now I really want to know how they come up with these "Last attended" entries.) I suppose listing actual countries is better than listing plain old "Spain" for Gasol; I remember NBA.com did not list actual clubs before but countries. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:06, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

This NBA source says that Gasol was drafted out of CB Girona (they list "CB Sant Josep", but the name change occured about one month after the draft). – Sabbatino (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
So why the player profile page does not say "CB Girona" (or "CB Sant Josep")? So there's something else that they base on what they put in the player profile page. Is it a good idea then to just follow that? I mean, Wikipedia basically copies everything from NBA.com, roster wise, so why not this one too? The Lakers roster page on NBA.com also lists Gasol to be from "FC Barcelona/Spain", and Lebron to be from "St. Vincent-St. Mary HS (OH)/USA". The Hornets NBA.com roster page simply lists Ball as "USA" from "prior to NBA"; compare to "Butler" for Hayward. The Hornets roster page do not sync with the individual player pages, unlike the Lakers'. (LOL). Howard the Duck (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The NBA website has a history of being inconsistent. I remember when they listed Mindaugas Kuzminskas as being from the USSR. The NBA makes it look like they tend to take some information from Wikipedia. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
I for one, would've advocated to blindly follow NBA.com, but they're inconsistent on this, so I dunno now. Blindly follow individual player profile pages or team roster pages? Howard the Duck (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Template:NBA game

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

For those that use Template:NBA game for game links, it seems the NBA.com link format changes practically every year. Be aware that even if we get the current season's links to work, all the ones from the previous season that use the template get broken (e.g. 2019–20_Los_Angeles_Lakers_season#Game_log) in the process (if they were even still working). I'll leave it to the users to decide how you want to proceed, but it seems like relying on NBA.com links will eventually result in a season's worth of deadlinks.—Bagumba (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I already fixed the template. But as you said – only this season's links are working, while the links for the last and earlier seasons were not working after the NBA updated its website. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
The links keep on redirecting to this page. Another issue is that when you try to look for the players who have the most points, rebounds, or assists, you have to go to the box score or the game charts and look for their names manually. The game leaders that are displayed on the aforementioned page show only one player from each team. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 10:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
@LSGH: As I already wrote – the template has been updated. You can either list:
  • {{NBA game|id=orl-vs-atl-0012000001|pf=116|pa=112}}, which will lead you to the game's recap
or
  • {{NBA game|id=0012000001|pf=116|pa=112}}, which will also lead you to the game's recap.
Another editor asked me about this on my talk page and it looks like listing abbreviations is optional. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
This is good already. Thanks. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 01:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

2020–21 NBA game log updates

Latest comment: 3 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

An editor or multiple editors with experience are needed to update the game logs for the 2020–21 season. The articles are going to be in terrible condition if they are not maintained up to date. Majority of the teams' articles don't even have their schedules up yet, so it's already off to a bad start. If anyone is willing to look after an article or two, that would be awesome. I'm hoping that I will only have to look after the Raptors page this year. Yowashi (talk) 18:33, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

@Yowashi: I do understand your concerns, but these pages will have the same faith like NHL pages – nobody is going to edit them. And I understand this better than most editors, because I used to edit NHL pages almost solely for about two or three seasons until you showed up and started helping. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:40, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Yowashi: It's your choice to do something (or not) and there is no deadline. At the very least, all season articles should anyways have a link to like https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2020_games.html in "External links", where readers can go for schedule and results. —Bagumba (talk) 12:15, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
I just noticed that some teams appear to be inconsistent with how most of the game logs are filled out. While there is no explicitly stated standard, some appear to deviate. There are some articles that use bfb and fbb instead of cfc and fcc to indicate wins and losses, surnames only listed if there is no tie for a certain statistic, no surnames listed if multiple players are tied for a certain statistic, and so on. I am not sure why those happen. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 10:20, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
@LSGH: The fact that you are changing the formats on some pages (the Nets and the Knicks) is your problem, because you could easily look at the histories of those pages and ask the main editor about one or another thing. This has been discussed in the past and it was agreed that listing only surname of the player is enough, but I am certainly not going through all teams' season pages to update them, because that takes time (in the past I used to update NHL teams' season pages for about two or three seasons without almost any help so I know how much time it takes). Therefore, I decided to focus on two or three teams to make updates, because that is way easier. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:11, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
@Sabbatino: I am just following how Yowashi updated the game logs last season. What makes those teams so special that they need to use a separate format altogether? If listing surnames is already enough, then why is it not being done in all articles? LSGH (talk) (contributions) 01:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@LSGH: "What makes those teams so special that they need to use a separate format altogether?" – there were discussions in the past regarding surnames, which I cannot locate at this time, where it was agreed that listing surname is enough. In addition, "Transactions" section is also different on the Nets' and Knicks' pages (if you did not notice that already), because most of the details in those sections are irrelevant and cannot be confirmed by reliable sources (here is the discussion about that). "If listing surnames is already enough, then why is it not being done in all articles?" – that is not being done, because very few editors make edits to game logs (almost all of them do not visit WT:NBA so how should they know) and I am certainly not going to update all of them, because I already wrote that it is too much work for one editor. There is no policy in Wikipedia, which says that all similar pages must look the same. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
LSGH: Feel free to establish a standard and document at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Style advice.—Bagumba (talk) 11:54, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
@Bagumba: People had years to do one but how is that even missing from that page? It's already implied that inconsistency should be avoided. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 01:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
LSGH: Everyone's a volunteer here. If you can help improve something, great.—Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Conference and division titles

Latest comment: 3 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

I guess most people from this project saw that the NBA changed their website. It has come to my attention that the NBA changed (I am not sure about that) the sorting for division and conference winners (click "Profile" next to team, and here is an additional source, which concurrs with the first source). They credit the Baltimore Bullets as the divisional winners of the 1968–69 season. The Boston Celtics won the 1969 NBA Finals so we currently list them as having won the division and conference in that season. The same applies to the Atlanta Hawks and the Los Angeles Lakers during the 1969–70 season. However, the NBA for some reason list the San Francisco Warriors as having won the Western division in the 1967–68 season (finished in third place and lost in the Division Finals to the Lakers), and the Philadephia 76ers are listed as the winners of the Eastern division despite the Boston Celtics winning the 1968 NBA Finals. These are just some examples since I did not have time to look through all of them. So we should:

  1. Assume that division = conference before the 1970–71 season and keep the listings as they are at the moment.
  2. Assume that conferences did not exist before the 1970–71 season (well yes, they did not) and list regular season division winners as having won the division instead of "Division Finals" winners (I am not sure what to do with the discrepancy for the 1967–68 season, but it could be ignored and the divisional title would go to the Hawks). So the Atlanta Hawks would have 11 divisional titles instead of 5, the Washington Wizards – 8 (including the 1968–69 season) instead of 7, the Philadelphia 76ers – 11 (including the 1967–68 season) instead of 5, etc. So I am planning to look through all the seasons before the 1970–71 season and see how it would change.

Thoughts would be appreciated. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:39, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Did sources before ever credit regular-season division titles for pre-1971?—Bagumba (talk) 04:52, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Before the website's update, which was made on October 27, 2020, nothing was listed apart from the roster, for example, October 26, 2020. Media guides do not help either, because nothing is clear there. They simply list in which place the team finished in the regular season so I assume that "division title" was always a "regular season thing" and those Division Finals were simply there to determine the NBA Finals participants. In addition, the NBA once again changed the links for games so every recap from the 2019–20 season is broken. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Basketball-reference.com also appears to count division titles before 1971.[3] The Official NBA Basketball Encyclopedia, published by the NBA in 1989, says on p. 94 re: the 1965–66 Celtics: "For the first time in 10 years, Boston was not the Eastern Divsion champion."[4]. It seems like both NBA.com and b-r.con only count "conference titles" 1970–71 and on. Regarding 1967–68, this 1968 article says St. Louis won the title.—Bagumba (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
From these sources it looks like the division title was always a "regular season thing" and division ≠ conference before the 1970–71 season. In addition this has some clarifications, for example, in here – "During the season, the 76ers beat the Celtics six times in 10 meetings, and eventually won 55 games, taking the Eastern Division title away from the Celtics for the first time in 10 years." A lot of reworking has to be done. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Is there any opposition from the project's members to the proposed changes (affected pages would be the teams' pages, Eastern and Western Conference pages, and also NBA Finals page). – Sabbatino (talk) 17:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Infoboxes for all the teams that played in the BAA/NBA before 1970–71 season have been updated. I could really use help in updating "List of X Team seasons", "List of NBA champions" and other pages that need updating. These things have been updated so far (I will update this list):

I had earlier attempted to create articles for both divisions (well, the Eastern at least), but never went back to them, so I commend @Sabbatino: for doing so (even though I never paid attention to this discussion until now). There's still room for improvement, though, and I wish to make changes wherever possible. –Piranha249 16:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
@Piranha249: I would not have created them if I did not find out that division titles were always a regular season achievement and that Easter/Western Division ≠ Eastern/Western Conference. And the only improvements that are needed at this point, in my opinion, are prose and references. I based the pages on Midwest Division's page since that is the only other division that is defunct. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Latest comment: 3 years ago25 comments4 people in discussion

NBA.com changed their player stats links so that our old formats don't work. For example, we had https://www.nba.com/playerfile/lebron_james but its now https://www.nba.com/player/2544/lebron-james. Every player has a unique number in their url. Not a big surprise. They changed the format for non-active players years ago, which made us deprecate support. Do people plan to spend the time to update all these? Or should we just give up and stick with basketball-reference.com, which I've never seen muck around with their urls. This affects {{infobox basketball biography}} and {{basketballstats}}—Bagumba (talk) 16:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I favor getting rid of the NBA.com links. BBR is reliable. Plus, we know the NBA will continue to mess around with their player page URLs again in the future, whereas BBR hasn't ever done that. They're essentially duplicative sources anyway, let's save this project future headaches. SportsGuy789 (talk) 23:48, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Another note about the BBR link, its pages have a link to the player's stats.nba.com page. With all the height changes this past year, I'm not sure how in sync BBR, stats.nba.com, and the basic NBA.com profile are. I'll give time for more input. Otherwise, I plan to change the template to remove the broken NBA.com link. We can make changes to support the new NBA.com format if there is demand.—Bagumba (talk) 11:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I was adding {{basketballstats}} at Hakeem Olajuwon#External links when I noticed that it was automatically putting the stats.nba.com link there from Wikidata. I don't know much about Wikidata or how reliable it is, but I guess that's an option for putting an NBA.com replacement into the infobox for "free". This wouldn't be the same as the basic profile we used to link to at nba.com. @Sabbatino: I see you sometimes manually adding the stat.nba.com link to the Basketballstats template. Do you have any comments on using Wikidata? @Zyxw: Pinging you for your perspective since you added the Wikidata code to Basketballstats.—Bagumba (talk) 07:05, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I am not familiar with Wikidata so I cannot comment on that. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:11, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Sabbatino: OK. But what about adding support for stats.nba.com links to the infobox to replace the old nba.com links?—Bagumba (talk) 17:26, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
@Bagumba: If someone is willing to add them then it should be done. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

To editor Bagumba: in regard to your revert, when the directions in the documentation are followed: nba_profile = The text between the last and second-last slashes in the URL of the player's NBA.com profile, then the correct stats page for a given player is shown. This seems to translate to a player number now, as shown in the infobox at Pau Gasol (of course, the link won't work until you self-revert). I am in the process of fixing the NBA stats links in players' articles. I realize the problems; however, when I think of the many readers of these articles, I think the stats links should be correct rather than landing on a general page or even a "we don't know how the hell you got here" page, as some do. The NBA link in the ibox template you reverted should now go to "player" rather than to "playerfile" in order for the NBA stats links to work in the players' articles. So please self-revert, and you might want to help get the correct codes into the players' iboxes. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 10:43, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Paine Ellsworth: I don't expect that you knew this discussion was already ongoing, which is why I made note of it in my revert's edit summary. As a template editor, I'm sure you are aware that consensus should generally be established. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 10:55, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Do you really expect that consensus will not want to make sure the links work? C'mon, let's fix the links. The NBA stats pages are helpful links! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 10:58, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth: one option discussed above was to use stats.nba.com link and use WikiData if a user has not encoded a value here.—Bagumba (talk) 14:04, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
To editor Bagumba: well, except for the few I've fixed (to work with "player", not with "playerfile"), all the other values are probably incorrect. For example, I changed the above link from |nba_profile=pau_gasol to |nba_profile=2200. At the NBA website I really had to hunt Mr. Gasol down, but I found him, and the link worked beautifully until you reverted my edit. Now it doesn't work, so now even the ones I fixed don't work. I think it's important for our readers that we decide this quickly and get the links fixed. So then we can move on to other things that beckon our editing expertise !>) P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 15:38, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

@Paine Ellsworth: It turns out that the old profiles from stats.NBA.com, e.g. http://stats.nba.com/player/2544/, now redirects to NBA.com at https://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/, which is similar to the format you encoded, e.g. https://www.nba.com/player/2544. That being the case I would propose:

  1. Introducing a new parameter |nbanew=. For now, we can encode the URL as you had as https://www.nba.com/player/{{{nbanew}}}. Note that if you search at https://www.nba.com/players, the URL is actually https://www.nba.com/player/2544/lebron-james. This generally is the annoying part about NBA.com, is they are always tinkering with the URL formats and at some point stop redirecting old formats.
  2. Ignore old parameters like |nba=, which are no longer useful
  3. If nobody has manually encoded |nbanew= on the Wiki page, the template will use the data from Wikidata, which seems to work. At worst, editors can alwasys specify |nbanew= and we can always remove the Wikidata code from the template if it really causes problems.

Preliminary changes are currently at Template:Infobox basketball biography/sandbox.—Bagumba (talk) 10:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

To editor Bagumba: I like this idea! Checked three articles in "preview" and the NBA stats link worked with both the present numerical code and the old player-name code, as well as with no NBA parameter at all. That will save a lot of time! Of course, the params that you deleted from the "Check for unknown parameters" section show up bright red as errors when in preview mode, but I don't see that as a big problem. You've given this a lot of thought, and it appears to have paid off, so thank you for that! In my opinion, we should go with the sandbox – make it "live". P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 12:51, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Live now. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 15:33, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
To editor Bagumba: excellent! Noticed in the Alvin Jones (basketball) article, when I added his NBA code to Wikidata, his stats wouldn't appear unless I removed his ibox's |career_end= param (in "preview"). So just a little curious as to why you made the NBA stats link contingent upon the player still being active? As soon as a player ends their career, their NBA stats link will drop out of the ibox. Shouldn't those stats remain even if a player is no longer playing? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 03:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth: At some point, NBA.com started changing URLs depending on whether a player was still active or not. After frequent changes, the consensus was to not handle retired players anymore, as nobody was updating them and basketball-reference.com was stable. Even now, active and non-active players have different URL formats, though putting the ID in the active format seems to redirected correctly for non-active players ... for now.—Bagumba (talk) 03:37, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: Although {{basketballstats}} handles non-active players, so it makes sense to make the ibx consistent, one way or another. Also, basketballstats should filter out the old format which doesnt work anymore (or get a bot to remove them).—Bagumba (talk) 03:51, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I'll have to look more closely. That template might also need updates. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 04:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Bagumba: hmmm, not sure I agree with that having spent much time on Wikidata. Another interesting study is once again the Pau Gasol situation. He seems to be on the edge. Wikipedia hasn't ended his career yet, though NBA.com no longer lists him as an active player. If you go to the NBA Player Index page and search for "gasol", his brother Marc's entry is shown, but Pau's entry only appears if you turn on the "show historic" button. So with your new code, if we end his career his NBA stats link will disappear from his ibox even though his NBA.com player ID number has not and never will change. As long as that number is on Wikidata, it seems to me that it won't matter with your new code if NBA.com changes their urls. Your new code will still take readers to the correct NBA stats page even if we allow the NBA stats link to continue after their career ends. I think we should rely on Wikidata and remove the "finalyear" or "career_end" contingency "if" function. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 04:16, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth: To be clear, the code to prevent a link for a non-active player existed before. It was done back in 2014, when NBA.com's URL ID went from the players's name to a numeric value. Nobody updated it for months, so the the encoding of the link was removed. Now we have the option of using Wikidata. As long as the ID doesn't change, massaging the URL should be manageable. I have no objections. Do you know if Wikidata for NBA.com is updated manually or automated? —Bagumba (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
That I don't know; however, it made sense to go to numbers for player IDs due to some players having the same name. This makes it likely that the numbers will continue to ID the players, in which case Wikidata's player IDs should remain stable. I think it means less work for us and makes good sense to rely on that, don't you? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 10:46, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
No objections from me.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Done then. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 00:41, 21 December 2020 (UTC)


For the record, these are the current formats:

NBA.com currently redirects the template's encoding correctly for active and historic players. This will break if NBA.com stops redirecting from a common URL format.—Bagumba (talk) 12:22, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Further improvements to NBA playoff articles

Latest comment: 3 years ago22 comments4 people in discussion

It's been a few years since you all took up my advice and made the primary sections on NBA playoff articles the actual rounds instead of conferences. I have two requests for future pages:

  1. Utilize Template:NBAbox, as it might be more effective than 4–7 basketball boxes.
  2. Do away with the playoff qualifying tables showing when the specific titles were clinched (I don't see those dates as very important, anyway).

–Piranha249 19:23, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Where's the WP:MOS page that says if you plan on hiding it, you might as well omit it?
I'd agree stacking 4-7 basketballboxes on top of each other isn't the best way to do it. If we'd be "hiding" stuff we might as well WP:SPLIT it to several daughter articles BUT people here want to put every thing in one article, so unless people want to deviate from that, we won't be seeing any changes.
I added those playoff qualifying tables, and I'd rather change them with the final league standings tables.
If people are open to WP:SPLITting, there's no sense in hiding other stuff and using NBAbox; we can just use {{ThreeLegStart}}, which is expandable up to seven games... now only if someone agrees with changing the headers to "Game #" from "#th leg".
For splitting, there are several ways do it. We can do it per conference or by round. If we'd be doing it per conference:
If we'd be doing it per round: (I'm not sure how article titles are capitalized now)
The MLB and the NFL already split their postseason articles per round (the MLB doesn't have a dedicated postseason article). Other multi-stage leagues from other countries also do this.
If people are intent on keeping all of the information in one article but hate stacking 7 basketballboxes, then NBAbox can be used. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:18, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: MOS:COLLAPSE is what you're thinking of.—Bagumba (talk) 01:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd caution against WP:HASTE in splitting. I don't know of many of the playoff articles being WP:TOOBIG, as most are just tables with little prose.—Bagumba (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
1989 NBA playoffs is terrible. It doesn't even have appropriate templates for game/series results. Compare to 1989 Football League play-offs (English soccer) where at least there are proper footballboxes all around. The playoff articles pre-21st century are in this way. 2000 NBA Playoffs looks somewhat the same as what you'd see on playoff articles in the Adam Silver era. I suppose we can split the 21st century playoff articles (if consensus goes that way), then work the 20th century articles into what the 21st century ones are right now... then again seven stacked basketballboxes are a bad look if you'll include the game statistical leaders, although it looks better if only the results are listed. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:40, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: I'm actually against splitting (and think the way baseball does it is too demanding), but we could look into it and see what it would look like. –Piranha249 16:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I am also against splitting the playoffs' pages. This is not MLB, NFL or soccer for this project to follow them. In addition, Stanley Cup playoffs pages are looking perfectly fine and they are not split. The biggest problem with older playoffs' pages is that nobody is willing to improve them since that takes time. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:21, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd rather fix up the older playoff pages than splitting the new ones now. FWIW, 2019 NBA playoffs is 110k+ in size, but virtually none of it is prose, unless you consider the bullets at the "Overview" section as prose. This - no prose - is a problem in most sports articles I've come across on. If an article is 110k in size and all of that is not prose, that's 110k of junk. By comparison, 2019 Stanley Cup playoffs actually has readable prose in all of its series sections, and it doesn't have that regular season series and previous playoff meetings that the NBA playoffs articles have - and hide! Hockey does hide per-game stats, again, as per MOS:COLLAPSE, this should not be done. If people are doing this, as per that guideline, WP:SPLIT is recommended. If people love stacking 7 basketballboxes, the best way is to just use the minimalist version of it, just the date, link to the box score, final score, location and TV. (There's a better way of presenting this in 1-2 rows of text than seven, though.) Want to hide the game leaders? Go make a daughter article. We shouldn't be showing/hiding stuff. It's inexcusable. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Those regular season series and previous playoff meetings are pure trivia and should be removed. I see those in college football as well (there is/was a push to have a bot remove them from CFB). There's a segment of Wikipedia sports editors that think trivia in a box is cool (my pet peave is those bulky high school recruit boxes e.g. RJ Barrett#Recruiting). Anything to avoid writing coherent prose.—Bagumba (talk) 02:12, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I actually sorta like these, but only in prose form, and just saying when was the last time a pair met in the playoffs, just like what the Stanley Cup playoffs article does. But in its current form, it's terrible. Now, a sentence on how the regular season series went would also provide context on how teams match-up to each other, but a list of all 2-4 games is overkill.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Howard the Duck (talk • contribs) 23:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Piranha249: I'd support removing the tables of qualifying dates. They're trivial. At best, the dominant team of the year could warrant a sentence if they notably clinched early, or some prose on end-of-season playoff races. Reality is most sports editors use clunky, exhaustive tables over topical prose.—Bagumba (talk) 01:18, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Bagumba, I suggest we try using something similar to what WikiProject Ice Hockey does with the Stanley Cup playoffs (use a straight-up numbered list and list what titles the teams have, if any, as seen in 2019). What ideas do you have? –Piranha249 16:53, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Piranha249: Something like at 2020_NBA_Finals#Road_to_the_Finals is compact, but it needs to identify the specific division winners. —Bagumba (talk) 02:04, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
I suggest using what I suggested in Talk:2018–19 NBA season#New template. This straight up standings table is a better summary of seeding than anything else, IMO. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:58, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: But how would divisional records and home/road records be incorporated? Those are utilized in the divisional variant of Template:NBA team standings and the variant for this season. Other than that, it might look okay. –Piranha249 15:02, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
I've been pressuring guys that edit Module:Sports table for years to include additional columns for home and away, divisional and conference records, as these are staples on US+Canada leagues standings tables, but they haven't really budged on this. Either way, division records no longer determine playoff seeding or qualification (If I'm not mistaken division champions are no longer guaranteed playoff qualification), and that conference records are now the primary basis for playoff seeding, and league records are the primary basis for draft orders.
FWIW, there's a customizable Module:Sports table/Custom but it is unusable for US+Canada context as it uses the points system used in soccer as opposed to winning percentage. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Understandable. I already took your example and made modifications to it based on those seen in the pre-2013 NHL standings (Example from the Eastern Conference here). Regarding said template, how do I get it to show a lowercase x like you do. –Piranha249 15:33, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I like these, but most contemporary conference standings tables do not include a column for what division a team is from. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:41, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Looks good.—Bagumba (talk) 15:04, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
I won't really recommend this now until Module:Sports table gets to be used for divisional standings as well, but yes, this is miles better than the current format, plus it aligns with how standings from other basketball (and soccer!) leagues around the world look like. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:11, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: The thread was orginally asking about playoff articles, and I'd lean towards saying home-road and div records are TMI, but fine for the main season article.—Bagumba (talk) 15:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd agree on your assessments with home-road and div records, but some people may be attached to those and would insist for those to be included, at least on division standings; for conference standings, those are not usually included. So I've been relying on social media too much lately for NBA standings presentation. NBA.com, ESPN and Yahoo! Sports now have expanded standings that include home-road and div-conf records, plus other unneeded stuff. They've also set the conference standings as the default by now, instead of division standings (probably because division standings don't mean anything by now). As for playoff articles, I'd recommend on transcluding whatever is being used on the regular season article for consistency's sake. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:33, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Anthony Davis Grand Slam

Latest comment: 3 years ago27 comments6 people in discussion

Anthony Davis is documented as the first player in history to win an NCAA Title, Olympic Gold Medal, FIBA World Cup, and NBA Title.

It has been dubbed as the "Grand Slam" (of basketball), and I included 4 different sources in the article using that term. (including FIBA and the Lakers)

Bagumba says that because the term hasn't been used until now (regarding basketball), we shouldn't use it in Davis' article, and has removed it.

My take is that everything has to start somewhere - the reason the term wasn't used until now is because no one ever accomplished the feat - and the term has been put into public consumption by numerous sources.

What say you?

Vjmlhds (talk) 14:15, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The accomplishment is notable. The term isn't a thing at this point. Rikster2 (talk) 14:30, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
When you get right down to it, "Grand Slam" is originally a bridge (as in card game) term. As time has gone on, other sports have picked up on it - most famously baseball to describe a bases loaded home run - and to designate winning four major events/races/championships. Tennis uses the term to highlight the Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, and the U.S, Open. Golf uses it for the Masters, British Open, U.S. Open, and PGA Championship. In 2015, when American Pharaoh became the first horse to win the Triple Crown (Kentucky Derby, Belmont, Preakness) and Breeder's Cup, it was called a Grand Slam. Show business has a "grand slam" (Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony - "EGOT") Even professional wrestling promotions - though not pure competitive contests - have termed winning four specific championships as their "Grand Slam". Now basketball is getting in on the act now that Anthony Davis became the first to win NCAA/Olympic/FIBA/NBA titles. Can't say the term isn't a "thing" when it's been thrown out there. Seriously - if it's acceptable to document grand slams in pro wrestling, why not basketball...especially when the term has been put out into public discourse? Vjmlhds (talk) 14:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
I did what I think should work as a compromise - winning all 4 titles is a lede worthy accomplishment, and the term "Grand Slam" has been thrown out enough where it can't be ignored, but I worded it in such a way where it doesn't sound like it's an official designation. Doesn't have to be all or nothing, there's always a middle ground, and I hope/think I've found it. Vjmlhds (talk) 16:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Do not insert that pathetic "Grand Slam" thing until this discussion is over. There are no reliable sources for your claims so just stop it. WP:OR is forbidden. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Sabbatino No "reliable" sources? I had 3 references - FIBA, Lakers, Cutch Points - using the term. And how is the term "pathetic" when others are using it? I didn't make up the term, all I did was point out what others deemed Davis' accomplishment, so your OR claim is faulty. It almost sounds like you don't want the term in there because it's not some "pure" basketball phrase. Vjmlhds (talk) 16:40, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Lets see – ClutchPoints is not reliable, and they most likely called it "Grand Slam" after seeing the Twitter message by the Lakers. FIBA wrote "he became the first player to complete what fans in America could view as the grand slam of basketball." It is clearly WP:OR, because what you are trying to do is WP:SYNTH – you implied that "Grand Slam" is a term and put it in Davis's page. Where is the "Grand Slam" usage by ESPN, Sports Illustrated, CNN, Reuters, The Associated Press and many others? It does not exist. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:19, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I didn't "imply" anything...I included the term, because others began using it. How is it OR when I explicitly stated in the article that Davis' accomplishment was deemed by some as the basketball grand slam - with references to back me up. And now you're going from OR to SYNTH. Admit it...you are just biased against the term because it isn't some pure basketball terminology etched on a peach basket by James Naismith (the fact you called it "pathetic" shows your hatred of the term). And since when is ESPN/CNN/AP the grand determiner of anything regarding if a certain phrase is used...you're reaching. Vjmlhds (talk) 17:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I would have to agree that the term "Grand Slam" is probably not appropriate to include in Davis's article until it becomes more mainstream. It's certainly not yet anywhere near as notable of the grand slam of golf or tennis. In these sports, as soon as someone wins the first two events they get put on "grand slam watch", and if someone has a chance to complete it, it becomes a major storyline unto itself. In this case, it appears to have been several days before anyone even realized it had happened. Furthermore, not everyone seems to agree what a "grand slam of basketball" even is: Google searches show "grand slam" being tossed around for all sorts of basketball feats. I definitely think we're a bit premature to be describing it in Wikipedia's voice as anything definitive. CThomas3 (talk) 18:30, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Go Google “Grand Slam of Basketball.” It isn’t a thing. Seems to have started on a couple of bloggy type places from the FIBA article, but FIBA has a vested interest in elevating that stature of its World Cup, which is not seen on the same level of the other three achievements in the US. The only reason people like Bill Russell, Magic and Jordan didn’t do this already is that it wasn’t a thing and they never went out of their ways to participate in the World Cup. Stop trying to make “fetch” happen. Rikster2 (talk) 18:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

The individual championships are notable, grouping them together is currently trivial for the lead (MOS:LEADBIO) and using the term anywhere is MOS:NEO. Your edit to move his most notable accomplishments out of the lead paragraph doesnt make sense, nor does forcing the grouping of the so called "grand slam" out of the body and into the lead. We should be wary of giving weight to non-independent sources like FIFA and the Lakers, and clutchpoints.com is not reliable.—Bagumba (talk) 18:58, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, well. In Wikipedia - just like life - you win some, and you lose some. Ce la vie. Vjmlhds (talk) 20:12, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

FWIW, when I was editing the K. C. Jones article, it mentioned the "Triple Crown" of basketball, where someone has to win the NCAA, NBA and Olympic titles in a career. Guess the "Grand Slam" will be the one that replaces it. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck: The reference on K. C. Jones' page is wrong. The "Triple Crown of basketball" consists of Olympic gold medal, FIBA World Cup gold medal and an NBA championship if we were to believe official Team USA's article, while the reference (which is blog-like and does not seem to be reliable) on Jones' page says it consists of Olympic gold medal, NCAA championship and NBA championship. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
The blog's post is old (2016), versus USA Basketball's 2017 page. Perhaps at that time, the FIBA World Cup fka FIBA World Championship was an afterthought (LOL until today), and Americans considered the NCAA, NBA and the Olympics (older than the World Cup) as the "more prestigious tournament". FWIW, the "Triple Crown of basketball" referring to the NCAA, NBA and Olympics championships are actually searchable on Google, although there are other definitions, such as the winning the NBA Finals MVP, regular season MVP and NBA title, and a European basketball definition akin to "trebles". Howard the Duck (talk) 18:59, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
So I saw you remove that achievement from Jones's article (bless him having dudes take away his achievements once he's dead LOL). I've restored it because when you removed it, it was actually sourced from Sports Illustrated. I know American journalism has taken a beating lately, but I think publishing from SI still means something, more so if they quoted from the Boston Celtics statement on his death, which... gulp... does mention a "Triple Crown", in Title Caps, no less! So I guess, "Triple Crowns" are as real as it gets, but Grand Slams in basketball should show up soon... aside from this type of grand slam. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:22, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
I did not say that Sports Illustrated is questionable, but I do understand that my edit summary implied that (I meant to refer to that "The Post Game" source). However, it is evident that SI were just mirroring the press release from the Celtics (the same can be said about CNN and many other websites who wrote about Jones' death). Google search does not really help either, because it either lists news articles about Jones' death that are rehashed Celtics' press release or has links to forums, blogs, Reddit, etc., which are all POV to say the least. So it can be implied that the Celtics took some information from Wikipedia, because I have never seen the Celtics or any other NBA team to use the "Triple Crown" moniker up until Jones' death. In addition, I did not find any mention about the supposed "Triple Crown" on NBA's, NCAA's or Olympics' websites. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Howard the Duck: I've removed it per MOS:NEO. It would need to be more widely used, not to mention a consistent definition. The individual achievements are already mentioned.—Bagumba (talk) 07:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Jeez. The Boston Celtics used it. Sports Illustrated used it. It's searchable on Google. For usage involving basketball players that played in the NBA, it's the definition in 5:1 cases. It passes WP:RS. Outright disappointing! The old dude just died, the team he played for cited this achievement, and Wikipedia dudes are erasing it from his memory. The Boston Celtics said he did this, but nope, LOL. Have some shame! Howard the Duck (talk) 13:20, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Newness is relative, but here's the New York Times talking about basketball's Triple Crown, in 2008, in relation to Candace Parker. The USA Olympic and Paralympic Committee website, in 2017, congratulated Kevin Durant in 2017, three years before Jones's death, and winning this achievement. So what if WP:RS got this from blogs and Reddit? Their usage of the term acknowledges and accepts its existence. If they acknowledge and accept its existence, WP:RS and all, who are we to deny that? To deny that the term exists, and is actually used by real WP:RS, is absurd and shameful! Howard the Duck (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
This is totally independent of the Grand Slam though, which is totally within the realms of WP:NEO for now. Maybe if Anthony Davis dies several decades from now people would acknowledge this achievement, but now yet in 2020. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:35, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I don't disagree that the "Triple Crown" might be a thing but FIBA and Team USA sites are not independent on this matter. Both organizations have a vested interest in pumping up the importance of the World Cup. FIBA has had a pretty aggressive marketing campaign about for 10 or so years, which is why they renamed the "FIBA World Championship" and tries to borrow some prestige from the FIFA event. I can say that in the US, the combo of NBA title, Olympic gold and college title has been something discussed in print and on TV at least since I was a kid and Quinn Buckner was playing for the Celtics. Interestingly, the "grand slam" that was discussed then included those three and a high school state championship (as Magic Johnson and Buckner have done). For better or for worse the US didn't take the World Cup seriously until about 1994. MANY great American players intentionally passed on playing for the FIBA world championship teams because the event just didn't have the same prestige as the Olympics. Rikster2 (talk) 13:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
The FIBA World Cup is not a component of any definition of the triple crown of basketball, at least when referring to someone who has NBA achievements. The USOC won't be hyping something up that doesn't directly involve them (FIBA World Cup; the IOC doesn't organize this tournament). The triple crown of NCAA+NBA+Olympics is a thing, the grand slam of NCAA+NBA+Olympics+World Cup is not yet. The FIBA World Cup is still not taken seriously by Americans. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:53, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

There not even a standard definition of a basketball "Triple Crown". Google finds:

  • Triple Crown (basketball) (European)
  • [5] NBA championship, NBA MVP, Olympic gold
  • [6] Olympics, Champions Cup/Euroleague, and NBA championships
  • [7] MVP award for the regular season, All-Star game and NBA Finals

Per MOS:NEO: They should generally be avoided because their definitions tend to be unstable and many do not last. Sure, it might be in SI or other sources. However, per WP:ONUS: ... not all verifiable information needs to be included in an article. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article, and that it should be omitted or presented instead in a different article.—Bagumba (talk)

Yeah, I actually talked about this above. When it comes to players with NBA experience, the "triple crown" refers to NCAA+NBA+Olympics on all sources, reliable or not, save for one, where it is defined as NBA MVP+NBA Finals MVP+NBA championship. NY Times talked about this in 2008 about a female player. USOC congratulated Kevin Durant (still doesn't make his rings at GSW relevant LOL) in 2017. The Boston Celtics talked about this on their player who died. If we're talking about NBA players, the triple crown, as per WP:RS whatever their motivations are, on an editorial decision, decided that it means NCAA+(W)NBA+Olympic championships. If we're K.C. Jones winning the "triple crown" the Celtics and SI know what they are talking about. What makes us more reliable than them? Seriously? You'd think yourself to be more authoritative in basketball than the 17x world champion Boston Celtics? Howard the Duck (talk) 15:50, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Bagumba, you and I are engaged in an edit war at K. C. Jones, citing that there's no consensus for this to be added. That's disingenuous as you are a party to the discussion you are citing, and that this was already there before you and Sabbatino removed it. If there's anything here, is that there's no consensus to remove that. Now, you can report me to 3RR and have me blocked, and I have no problem with that, but I just want to point out the disingenuousity (is that even a word) of your practices. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

... you are a party to the discussion you are citing ...: That's usually how disputes are resolved—participation. Someone made a bold edit. You reverted. You were reverted. There's a discussion here. No one supports you here (yet?) But you reverted again anyways. All righty.—Bagumba (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I suppose there should be consensus to remove. Someone added it; it was already there when I edited it a few days ago. You removed it a perfectly cited statement. I added it back. Is the default consensus is to the ones who removed content cited by WP:RS? I dunno, although I suppose consensus is to remove, and the party to the discussion shouldn't be saying that there's "no consensus to add" when I suppose "there should be consensus to remove"? Winning these three achievements in a career is a thing, and that since 2008 the New York Times thought that "hey, I guess someone has been calling this as the 'triple crown', so let's make an editorial decision to call it as such." New York Times, Sports Illustrated, Boston Celtics... I suppose if the LA Times report that the Lakers release a statement that "the triple crown is made up by the Celtics knowing that Lebron won't ever win this", then I say we should remove it... while Lakers are tied with the Celtics in championships, the Lakers' latter titles were made with more teams and longer playoff series than the Celtics' earlier titles, including Jones's. I suppose that's how we determine who's knowledgeable in basketball rather than us imagining "the Celtics must've gotten this on Reddit! Let's fluff up the achievements of our dead player knowing he average 7 points per game in his career." Howard the Duck (talk) 16:54, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Draft:History of organizational changes in the NBA

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

There is a draft at Draft:History of organizational changes in the NBA, which is unsourced and I do not think that it even qualifies to have a page. All information that is presented there can be found in NBA season pages or divisions' pages. The draft in question is a copy-paste of History of organizational changes in the NHL. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Overlaps with Timeline of the National Basketball Association and Expansion of National Basketball Association. Could merge, but I'm not crazy about its repetitive tables. Anyways, does not need to be a new page.—Bagumba (talk) 08:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
An MFD can be found at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:History of organizational changes in the NBA. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
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