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Including sub-headers preseason stints with NBA teams

We need to clarify whether or not a subheader is necessary for a players preseason stay with a team that they ultimately did not make. The example currently is Max Strus and his preseason stint with Boston Celtics before signing with the Chicago Bulls. As it currently stands, his time with the Celtics is under the Chicago subheader. While I agree that the Celtics should not be in the infox, I do believe that a Celtics subheader is appropriate given the amount of coverage he received given he signed a two way contract, then a standard NBA contract and his competition with Javonte Green for the final roster spot gained a coverage (some examples: 1, 2, 3, 4). Whether or not Strus made the team is not relevant if his time with the team is considered notable to the player's career history. Best, GPL93 (talk) 20:32, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• No subheader except for extremely unusual situations And by extremely unusual I am thinking about someone like Andrew Bynum who sat on the Sixers roster for a full season but never played for the team. We don't add a category if a player doesn't make a final roster, we don't add it to the infobox. It feels inconsistent to have separate sub-sections for teams that a player merely passes through on the way to the team they actually play for in a season - for some players they try for 3-4 teams before they stick somewhere. I say handle these with the same philosophy used in basketball articles - if you didn't make the team final roster, you weren't ever really on it. Rikster2 (talk) 20:43, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

It's really not inconsistent though. Infoboxes provide a brief summary of a player's career whereas the body of the article goes more in-depth. When looking from the perspective of a player article, being part of a preseason roster often isn't insignificant to the player's career. Best, GPL93 (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Nobody is saying the preseason stint shouldn't be mentioned though. I am merely saying it shouldn't have its own section as that preseason move was just a part of the journey to his first team - the Bulls. His signing with the Celtics and those steps certainly has a place in the prose. Rikster2 (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Except it technically wasn't his first team. He signed a standard 2 year NBA contract, was paid, and was listed on an official roster with the Celtics before being cut. It's not like this was something informal, fleeting, or unpaid like summer league or being part of a draft night trade. Honestly, his time with the Celtics has gained about as much if not more non-transaction report style coverage as a pro than with the Bulls or the Heat. Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Well that’s part of what needs to be determined, now isn’t it? If you don’t make the final roster you never actually made the team. But you don’t need to debate me, our positions are pretty well articulated at this point. The purpose of this discussion is to get what the larger consensus on these situations is. That means other opinions. Rikster2 (talk) 21:28, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

There's more information about the Celtics than the Heat, so I think a Celtics subsection is OK, for now. In the long run, we'd probably want to drop the "1 section per team" structure entirely. Once Strus has more seasons under his belt, we can find better ways to organize the information. Zagalejo^^^ 23:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

There is a whole separate question about the need for sections when an article isn’t particularly long. We have scores of articles with one or two sentences per section. That is of limited use to readers in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Comment I have realized that there is a third option that probably should be considered in cases like Strus when it comes to the beginning of a player's career. Because he was with the Celtics in training camp as a rookie, we can leave it under no subheader and under the "Professional career" header before the subheader for the Player's first team. Personally I still think the subheader is the best option but I do think that this should be considered. Best, GPL93 (talk) 23:54, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
• Comment General guidance is at MOS:SECTION: Very short sections and subsections clutter an article with headings and inhibit the flow of the prose. Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading.—Bagumba (talk) 11:40, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

In this case the Celtic's paragraph is substantiative and roughly the same length as the paragraph on his time with the Bulls, where again he appears to have received less coverage even though he was on the regular season roster. Best, GPL93 (talk) 02:56, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

How the article is written is irrelevant. What is your factual basis for saying he got more coverage for his preseason stint with the Celtics than with his actual time with the Bulls? Rikster2 (talk) 04:12, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I am also against sub-headers for teams that the player did not play for. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually, it is relevant when looking at MOS:SECTION as the paragraph isn't a single sentence or short. A quick search shows only a few RS articles around Strus with the Bulls, really only about either his signing or his knee injury. His roster spot competition with the Celtics appears to have garnered pretty significant coverage in the Boston media. Again, I'm not saying that signing an Exhibit 10 and being waived a few days later needs a subheader but if you are actually garnering coverage in camp then it's not unreasonable to say that the training camp stay doesn't deserve it's own subsection. Best, GPL93 (talk) 14:14, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The article would read just fine with "College career" and "Professional career" not having any subsections at all. They're both relative short.—Bagumba (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. Rikster2 (talk) 15:39, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Infobox link to BBR

Similar to recent NBA link changes to {{Infobox basketball biography}} (see #NBA.com_stats_links_broken), basketball-reference.com support of Wikidata has been added. The template still uses |bbr= if it is specified; if it's not, it will use the value from Wikidata, if it is available there. Let me know if there are any concerns.—Bagumba (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Placement of career statistics in articles

Was there a discussion to put NBA stats in the NBA career section of an article as opposed to having a statistics section after the prose (see Michael Jordan)? In my opinion, this really breaks up the reading flow of the article. If there is a consensus for that status quo I linked at the MJ article I’d like to recommend we revisit it. If there isn’t a consensus I’m just going to start moving the stats and see if anybody complains. Rikster2 (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever discussed formally. I usually prefer stats and any honors list after their career, player profile, and legacy prose but before the "Personal life". Jordan, Magic, et al. might be special cases because they have more prose about non-basketball business which is also part of their notability.—Bagumba (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

OK, so there is disagreement. Personally I think the article itself should read with a clear flow through and supporting info like stats and lists of achievements should be after the prose in their own sections. But it sounds like this isn't necessarily an uncontroversial view. Rikster2 (talk) 13:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

CfD notice - team broadcaster categories

All team-specific NBA broadcaster categories are up for CfD (as well as MLB, NFL, NHL and NCAA). If you have a POV on these categories, feel free to take part in the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 15#Team broadcaster categories. Rikster2 (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Seattle and Oklahoma City

Just want to inform everyone that the Oklahoma City Thunder have stopped sharing the history with the Seattle SuperSonics per their 2020–21 media guide. I thought about changing the Thunder's page to reflect it, but every older media guide list the Thunder/SuperSonics history as one. And the NBA have not released their 2020–21 official NBA guide yet. I assume that these changes by the team are possibly tied to the rumors about the Seattle and Las Vegas expansion teams. I do know about the settlement, but the statements at the SuperSonics' and Thunder's pages contradict each other. What do you all think? – Sabbatino (talk) 09:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Sabbatino, I'm not sure either; I would rather wait for the league media guide to be released for any full confirmation about this decision. –Piranha249 15:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, let's follow how the NBA handles this once they have made definitive statements, not assume. The Charlotte/New Orleans Hornets/Pelicans case was a little messy with how they treated it, but in the end they were clear about which history goes with which franchise. Rikster2 (talk) 16:09, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Well I am in no rush to change anything. Just wanted to notify everyone about the changes from the Thunder's side. However, as I already wrote, the SuperSonics' and Thunder's pages contradict each other. They claim that:

1. SuperSonics – "Settlement terms of a lawsuit between the city of Seattle and Clay Bennett's ownership group stipulated the SuperSonics' banners, trophies, and retired jerseys remain in Seattle; the nickname, logo, and color scheme are available to any subsequent NBA team that plays at a renovated KeyArena subject to NBA approval. The SuperSonics' franchise history, however, would be shared with the Thunder." Seattle SuperSonics relocation to Oklahoma City#Distribution of assets says the same.
2. Thunder – "The owners agreed to leave the SuperSonics name, logo and colors in Seattle for a possible future NBA franchise; however, the items would remain the property of the Oklahoma City team along with other "assets," including championship banners and trophies." There are two "[disputed – discuss]" tags (both tags have been there since January 2016) after each of the sentences.

So which is correct? Do the banners, trophies, and retired jerseys remain in Seattle or are they transferred to Oklahoma City? – Sabbatino (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what to say about the media guide. As of 2010, Clay Bennett did technically own the trophies, banners, etc. This article says, "MOHAI is kind of like the foster parent for the trophy and hundreds of other artifacts, ranging from banners to team photographs to old VHS tapes, that aren’t on display. Shortly after Clay Bennett and his Raiders settled with the city and moved to Oklahoma City, the items were given to the museum. In early 2009, MOHAI and the Raiders signed an agreement that essentially says the museum will take care of these precious Sonics’ memories in perpetuity. At any time, Bennett could take them back, but he isn’t expected to do so." Zagalejo^^^ 01:26, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I am an Okie, which may cloud my opinion on the matter. I found several instances of "the franchise," which alludes to the Seattle era. An example is the Matt Pinto section. I think at this point until an announcement occurs, it is WP:OR-ish. As an Okie I would really like to know! (I am WP:AGF here.)-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Template:Infobox basketball biography appearance

There is a discussion at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography#Infobox bodystyle regarding the appearance of the infobox. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Klay Thompson and religion

There is a discussion regarding the inclusion of Thompson's religion at Talk:Klay Thompson#Catholic. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:11, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Thompson's article aside, there seems like a general campaign to put a one-liner and category about a person's religion for NBA bios (if not other American athletes) A lot of them seem like trivial or WP:NOTDIARY mentions whose inclusion does not meet WP:WEIGHT of coverage. WP bios are not dating profiles e.g. loves cats, sunset walks on the beach, voted for Biden.—Bagumba (talk) 16:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Some editors WP:DONTGETIT. And arguing with them is like talking to a wall. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:07, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Template:Basketball roster statistics full/header

Should Template:Basketball roster statistics full/header (merge discussion of this template) be nominated for deletion? It is basically a copy-paste version of Template:NBA roster statistics start and is less informative (omits percentages, uses totals instead of averages). In addition, it is used on 43 pages only, while "Template:NBA roster statistics start" is used on many pages. The creator of the template has never responded to any questions regarding this creation, for example, User talk:Ayomaju#NBA statistics. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Kyrie Irving nationality

An editor is attempting to add "Lakota" as Irving's nationality. The discussion can be found at Talk:Kyrie Irving#Lakota heritage. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:34, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Native American tribes are not considered “nationalities” for this purpose, this has been discussed with other players. Irving played FIBA basketball for the USA so it’s “American” Rikster2 (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Category:NBA G League players from Serbia has been nominated for discussion

Category:NBA G League players from Serbia has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Rikster2 (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Eddie Robinson

Was wondering if someone from this WikiProject could take a look at Eddie Robinson (basketball)? I just removed a bunch of unsourced content that might have been added by a COI editor. Some of what I removed was a bit trivial in nature, but some probably can be re-added if supporting sources can be found. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

He was just in the news yesterday: link. That article can help a little bit. Was there a specific reason to remove the image? The image itself has not been tagged for anything. Zagalejo^^^ 14:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look Zagalejo. I accidentally removed the image, when I removed the other unsourced content. I'll re-add it since it seems OK. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:49, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Standings templates and Navbars

Maybe I've missed this somewhere in the talk archives, but is there a reason that each season standings table (such as Template:2020–21 NBA East standings) doesn't include a Module:Navbar? Is it to prevent vandalism? Not having it one makes it more difficult for others to find the template and edit it. Just looking for others thoughts on it as it seems it is the only North American major league that does not include them in the standings templates. Yosemiter (talk) 16:24, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

It also doesn't follow the format of historical season templates.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:40, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

UCO2009bluejay: The standings from the last few years don't have them, either (I thought this was a by-product of the new templates we build the standings on this year, but I guess not). –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 16:06, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

It was available at Template:2010–11 NBA East standings. I don't have an issue with adding it.—Bagumba (talk) 17:17, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba, Any changes would have to be made on Template:2020–21 NBA team standings and presumably Template:NBA team standings. I'll go ahead and request them a few changes. –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 17:33, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Based on this conversation, I un-hid the navbar in Template:2020–21 NBA team standings with this edit. I then had to update each division table to align with the capitalization of the divisions. Please let me know if anyone finds issues or broken links. If it seems good, we can fix the old ones or just leave them (since they aren't going to be changing anyways). Yosemiter (talk) 19:10, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Joakim Noah retired?

Is Joakim Noah retired at this point? Because there were no official news from Noah himself and all the news reports are based on a tweet by Shams Charania (NBC, CBS, SI and every other report is based on Charania's tweet). That looks like a case of WP:RSBREAKING. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:06, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Noah did apparently say on his Instagram, "It was a hell of a ride. Thank you to all those who show me love throughout my journey." (See bottom of that article.) There was talk that he was going to retire as a Bull, perhaps with a brief ceremonial contract like Luol Deng got. That hasn't happened yet.... but it's probably not a stretch to call Noah a "former" player. Zagalejo (talk) 03:46, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I updated the page accordingly. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:29, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I saw the same NBCSports article before, and decided not to revert since at least a secondary source interpretted it as "all but confirming his retirement from basketball". This is also somewhat different from trades and signings in that those will have a formal announcement eventually, whereas a retirement might not.—Bagumba (talk) 07:57, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

One of the greatest players

I occasionally see people adding text to the the leads of bios like this that someone is "considered one of the greatest professional basketball players of all time". I think we should avoid subjective statements like that when we can just objectively state that they were inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.

This is separate from stating someone is widely considered the greatest player or the greatest player at a a position, which can be notable for the lead if supported by most sources.

What do others think?—Bagumba (talk) 08:05, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Roster templates

I would just want to know why the "roster templates" are sorted by surname alphabetically while the "current roster template" are sorted by jersey number. Yes, I know that we could sort the "roster template" in any way we want (including by number), but I'm just curious with this "incosistency" of the current default way of sorting. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 09:25, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

There was a prior discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_34#Roster_ordering, which basically said it's a long-standing convention for no particular known reason.—Bagumba (talk) 09:40, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

The alphabetical order of the roster template makes it easier to find particular players in a template where nothing is highlighted. The current roster template sits at the bottom of player and coach articles and the specific individual is highlighted so finding players isn’t a use of that template, it’s purely a navigation aid. I honestly don’t see why it would be important to have the 2 templates sorted the same way. Rikster2 (talk) 10:09, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

List of National Basketball Association presidents

DrumFan4ever (talk · contribs) has created List of National Basketball Association presidents. Should this list be nominated for deletion? In addition, a bunch of teams' infoboxes have also been edited to include CEOs and/or Presidents. I have filled the references for those but I am starting to have second thoughts if those people should be listed in infoboxes. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:27, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of pages that are nothing more than current directories. Obviously, it's a case of WP:OTHERSTUFF. One could argue an IAR for head coaches and owners, but I don't buy presidents..—Bagumba (talk) 11:59, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

How is “President” being defined? Are these even equivalent positions from one team to another? Zagalejo (talk) 12:53, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

The list has some errors, such as Kupchak of Charlotte and Pritchard of Indiana being president of basketball operations, not team president.—Bagumba (talk) 15:59, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. I was not aware of those mistakes. I will research further and correct it accordingly. Also, I hope to add one more column on 'former presidents'. DrumFan4ever (talk · contribs)

I renamed article List of National Basketball Association team presidents DrumFan4ever (talk · contribs)

I’m afraid this may be a little more complicated than you expect. Teams have different ways of organizing themselves, and a job title at one team may mean something different at another.

There are similar complications when trying to list GMs. A team like the Chicago Bulls has both a GM and an Executive Vice-President of Basketball Operations, who outranks the GM. Zagalejo (talk) 19:34, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

If we delete team presidents, then we should probably remove GMs as well? Please note that Wikipedia currently has articles titled: 'Category:National Basketball Association team presidents'; 'Template:NHL team presidents'; 'Category:National Football League team presidents'. Aggregating the entire data into my article was no easy feat and those other wiki articles are substantially lacking substance. My article's info should be accurate and useful with many sources. At least that is my belief. Several users have been adding info to my article as well to show support. How can I proceed? Please advise. Thank you. DrumFan4ever (talk · contribs)

I don’t think this list is hopeless, but we need to clearly define what we want to include. A “team president” may have a broader set of job responsibilities than the “president of basketball operations”, but I don’t think the list reflects those nuances. (The fact that similar pages exist on Wikipedia does not imply that those pages are accurate themselves.) Zagalejo (talk) 19:45, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@DrumFan4ever: If we delete team presidents, then we should probably remove GMs as well? – general managers are notable since they get talked about in media constantly. In addition, as already noted – teams have different organizational variations for executives – so that is the biggest problem. President on one team can be a completely different thing than on other team. The Chicago Bulls example is a very good example about that. The New York Knicks is another good example where Leon Rose is the president for basketball operations and staff, while Andrew Lustgarten is the president and CEO of the business section. I also want to point out that Category:National Basketball Association team presidents, Template:NHL team presidents and Category:National Football League team presidents are not articles. In my opinion, listing such people on team's page, if they have a BLP page about them, is enough. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:03, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: I will circle back soon. My goal is to find consistencies among presidents such that job responsibilities reflect desired nuances. Otherwise, I can put a disclaimer/asterisk where deviations are found. DrumFan4ever (talk) 16:15, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: Article has been modified to distinguish between business and basketball operations. Take a look and please report back. Thank you. DrumFan4ever (talk) 17:09, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

For the record, the AfD closed as no consensus, and the closer included: Let me offer one tip: Someone may want to go in and reorganize, or reclassify the criteria or do a RM or something because odds are it will be here again and it might not make it next time.—Bagumba (talk) 07:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

AGreatPhoenixSunsFan and Tatum90210

Does anyone else see a connection between the edits of AGreatPhoenixSunsFan (talk · contribs) and Tatum90210 (talk · contribs)? Both focus on the pages related to the Phoenix Suns. Both tend to add stuff like "in a blowout win..." or similar wording, add content that could not be verified by sources or add unsourced content. In addition, Tatum90210 started editing Phoenix Suns-related pages from its very first edit. Am I correct to assume that it is a WP:DUCK. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:33, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Adding absurd amount of trivial details to player pages (like a a "second-ever" stat addition) and the season pages certainly matches AGPSF's modus operandi. At least it appears they stopped adding "would"s in every sentence if it is the same editor. Yosemiter (talk) 16:30, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, if anyone wants to take a stab and cleaning up 2020–21 Phoenix Suns season, good luck. So much random superfluous details. Its like they added every minor report ever written on what may or may not have been happening about the league re-start. About 2-3 times as much as the 2020–21 NBA season has on it. Yosemiter (talk) 17:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The same situation is at 2019–20 Phoenix Suns season page. I thought about pinging an admin that blocked AGreatPhoenixSunsFan to this section , but looks like he is no longer active. Maybe @Bagumba: can help? An SPI would be a logical approach but given that there is about a one year gap between the edits probably would not do much. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I've been going through some their edits to try and cross-reference style. Based on the additions of superfluous trivial details ("July 20, 2020: The NBA reported there was nothing to report". paraphrased), the Suns specific editing, WP:PEACOCK words, and the continued use of MOS:CONTRACTIONS, unless it is a very close copycat stealing the format from older seasons (unlikely) then they are almost certainly the same editor. It should also be noted, that it looks like AGPSF is still IP hopping. At least the use of "would" has drastically decreased. Yosemiter (talk) 18:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

If someone can provide diffs from old and new users, making it as obvious as possible what the similar behaviors are, I'd suggest opening an WP:SPI. The more obvious the distinctive style, the better. Otherwise, there could conceivably be another Phoenix Suns fan who is into minutiae. Checkuser is probably not an option given the time gap.—Bagumba (talk) 06:16, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

For reference on Phoenix before, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_35#Phoenix_Suns_and_WP:EDITORIAL and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1006#WP:RSBREAKING_and_WP:EDITORIAL_by_User:AGreatPhoenixSunsFan. The sock concerns aside, I'd suggest discussing any editing concerns directly with Tatum90210 to reach a resolution.—Bagumba (talk) 04:34, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I opened an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/AGreatPhoenixSunsFan. The report is far from perfect so I would appreciate if anyone would give their observations there. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:29, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Finals' starting lineups

2600:1700:9AA0:16A0:0:0:0:0/64 (talk) has been adding a starting lineup table to NBA Finals articles. Typically, a Finals' article already has a stats table which lists games played and started for each player, among other stats. The problem with this lineup table is that not every team has a set lineup throughout the series, and it takes WP:OR sometimes to determine exacly what player a postion is playing.

For example, 2013 NBA Finals#Series summary has LeBron at SF though he was arguably the PF with that small ball lineup with Bosh at center. For 2015 NBA Finals#Starting lineups, Iguodala and Bogut both had three starts,[1] but Iguodala is listed at the starter. At 2020 NBA Finals#Starting lineups, LeBron is listed at SF when some would call him the PG last year.

I propose deleting these as an oversimplification and occasional WP:OR.—Bagumba (talk) 08:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

In theory, there could be as many different starting lineups per team as there are games but I guess you guys won't permit per-game stats of the Finals either. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Full box scores become bulky. A link to the series at basketball-reference.com provides that detail.—Bagumba (talk) 14:21, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree that such tables should be removed from every NBA Finals' page. They do not add anything that could not be said in prose. If someone wants to really know such information then they could just go to NBA or Basketball-Reference. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I've removed from the Finals pages 2002–2020. It seems that this IP range was only copying what already in some older articles.—Bagumba (talk) 09:11, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Toronto Raptors for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 05:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Minority owners

People have been adding team colors and minority owner role into infoboxes of ex-players like Dwyane Wade, Shaquille O'Neal and Grant Hill. Is this WP:UNDUE, as I don't think it's a main part of their notability? I also think it's too minor to be in the lead sentence per MOS:ROLEBIO.—Bagumba (talk) 06:39, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba, Yeah personally, I agree with you on the matter. Since they are minority owners, they do not have a large impact on the rosters, design, arena and gameplan of the team and I think it should be removed until a large majority of the project agree on it staying. And like you said, Their position as minority owner is not notable to their career and life to be included in the infobox. ₛₒₘₑBₒdyₐₙyBₒdy₀₅ (talk) 07:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Hill has an executive title, so I left him as is, but removed the infobox and lead senteence mention for Wade and O'Neal.—Bagumba (talk) 11:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba: @SomeBodyAnyBody05: In my opinion, I believe that while minority ownership shares shouldnt be in lead sentence per rolebio (though they can be mentioned elsewhere), they are worthy of the infobox, given that they can only hold shares for one team at a time and it makes them exclusively a part of that organization. It is a role in a team and that role is official no matter how minor, therefore it should be highlighted in the infobox in my opinion. Further opinions are welcome, I can even start an RFC on the matter. DrewieStewie (talk) 09:25, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I think the guiding principle is WP:ASTONISH. For example, O'Neal is not defined by his owner stake, and most are probably unaware of his link to the Kings. At this point, he's more tied to TNT with his analyst role, and his only current basketball title is GM of the Kings' NBA 2K team.—Bagumba (talk) 09:43, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

they are worthy of the infobox, given that they can only hold shares for one team at a time and it makes them exclusively a part of that organization – that is completely false. A person can hold as many shares as he/she wants in different teams. A person can be an owner in NBA, NFL, MLS and other clubs at the same time. For example, Josh Harris has a stake in the 76ers and the New Jersey Devils. – Sabbatino (talk) 13:44, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@SomeBodyAnyBody05: I was referring to holding shares for a team in a single league, not across different leagues. Like, didn' Steve Kerr have to relinquish ownership stakes in the Suns to become Warriors HC? And didnt Vivek have to sell his minority Warriors ownership to become Kings majority owner? Exclusively NBA we're talking. Not across different leagues. Because that's allowed. Since Paul Allen owned both the Seahawks and the Trailblazers. DrewieStewie (talk) 23:35, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I will volunteer to...

...add whoever team gets home-court advantage to the lead paragraphs in each and every NBA Finals article. TheRafaMarc15 (talk) 02:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Something like what's at 2019 NBA Finals seems fine, mentioning their regular season records too.—Bagumba (talk) 06:28, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Stats table for player on two teams in same season

I only noticed that there were some previous reverts on this.

This issue is a player that plays for more than one team in a season e.g. traded, waived, etc.

See Andre Drummond's table

There are two rows for 2020–21, one for Cleveland stats and one for the Lakers. The column for the season, however, take up two rows to show that it's the same season. There is no combining of the stats, per se. Is there an issue? Granted, it's not a widespread convention, but consensus can change, and it doesn't seem Earth shattering either way.

FWIW, Andrew Wiggins has had this format since January 2021.

@Sabbatino and Lyndon George: Your comments are welcome.—Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

I am opposed to such proposition. The {{nbay|2020|nolink=y}}, which produces "2020–21" (without link), will lose its purpose if we start combining the year column for same season. In addition, many pages will have to be changed and I am certainly not going to do that. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:35, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

"many pages will have to be changed": Sure, but there is no deadline. It's not a drastic change that will confuse anyone or look incredibly bizarre IMO. And I think it is an improvement, making it easier to see that they were on multiple teams in the same season.—Bagumba (talk) 07:56, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Play-in games

FYI

There is an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 NBA Play-in Tournament. If the page is not kept, the topic has come up if the play-in games should be covered at 2020–21 NBA season#Play-in tournament or 2021 NBA Playoffs.—Bagumba (talk) 08:42, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

List of TEAM seasons

It would be good if someone fixed the "GB" stat in "List of TEAM seasons" pages (Template:NBA season-by-season team history for easier navigation from here), because almost all of them are incorrect and I am certainly not going to fix all of them myself. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:11, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "easier navigation"? Is there a good example vs. a bad one?—Bagumba (talk) 06:26, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I linked the template, which has all "List of TEAM seasons" pages so editors would not have to go to teams' pages to get there. In addition, what I meant by wrong "GB" stat is that most of them list the division "GB" instead of conference "GB". Just yesterday I had to fix all "GB" stats at List of Charlotte Hornets seasons and today done the same to List of Miami Heat seasons. For example, an editor has changed it from 10 (conference) to 9 (division) at List of Los Angeles Lakers seasons, which I reverted. In my opinion, we could just simply get rid of "GB" stat in "List of TEAM seasons" since it does not really add anything relevant to readers. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

My bad. Thanks for clarifying. I think that all the season lists that are FLs have a key that says GB refers to the division e.g. List of Los Angeles Lakers seasons ("Games behind first-place team in division"). The problem is that some of the non-FL ones I sampled don't specify it e.g. List of Sacramento Kings seasons. While the recent playoff changes since 2016 de-emphasize division winners, prior to that division winners were automatically the top seeds in the playoffs. So it all depends if we want to take the recent emphasis on GB being relative to the conference or historically it being relative to the division standings.—Bagumba (talk) 09:55, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I also don't have a problem removing GB altogther. The "Finish" column is enough.—Bagumba (talk) 10:01, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Article Rename request you may be interested in

There is currently a RM at Talk:Mohamed Bamba#Requested move 18 May 2021 seeking consensus to rename article from Mohamed Bamba to Mo Bamba RedPatch (talk) 13:20, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Play-in games and coaching record

Vinnylospo (talk · contribs) is edit warring at Taylor Jenkins page and is certain that play-in games count as playoffs. He seems to be ignoring the fact or just refuses to get it. Could someone else tell him that play-in games do not count as neither regular season or playoffs? – Sabbatino (talk) 19:54, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Expand. And he is doing the same at Southwest Division (NBA)#Season results (other divisions included). – Sabbatino (talk) 20:09, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The play-in stats dont count for regular season or playoffs.[2] You'll need to cite reliable sources to show otherwise.—Bagumba (talk) 01:20, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Other affected pages – 2019–20 Memphis Grizzlies season, 2020–21 Indiana Pacers season, 2020–21 Charlotte Hornets season, 2020–21 Golden State Warriors season (some new editor who has at least three accounts decided to start an edit war in the infobox), 2020–21 San Antonio Spurs season.

If they aren’t in the regular season, and if it’s “post” the season. It’s Postseason. How are we going to count this as? Exhibition games? No because these games actually have meaning. They are basically playoff games. The losers got eliminated just like in a playoff matchup. Vinnylospo (talk) 03:17, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Especially when on these games, they are listed as “playoff games” so please explain this. This sounds way too confusing. Don’t you think it would be easier if we just simplified this? Vinnylospo (talk) 03:19, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

How would this sound as a compromise. If we are not putting it as a playoff game, we should instead have its own separate section. Vinnylospo (talk) 03:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

There's currently 2020–21 NBA season#Play-in tournament. So it would follow to create a similar section in play-in teams' pages.—Bagumba (talk) 03:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vinnylospo: The NBA quite clearly says that The Play-In Tournament, which will take place after the regular season and before the first round of the playoffs, will include the teams with the seventh-highest through the tenth-highest winning percentages in each conference.. And then there is this article from The Athletic. What is so hard to understand? It is clear that the "play-in" games are not part of neither the regular season or playoffs and none of the statistics are counted anywhere by the NBA. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

So, you are saying that despite these games counting, we should not have them count towards total wins and losses? I think we need to. Like it or not. Vinnylospo (talk) 13:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Vinnylospo: Please stop with WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT attitude. The NBA quite clearly said that the play-in games will be here for one season only – Prior to the start of the 2020-21 season, the NBA Board of Governors unanimously approved a proposal to implement a playoff Play-In Tournament on a one-year basis for the 2020-21 season. – and then will most likely be discontinued. And all other sources also indicate that the statistics for these games are not going to be recorded anywhere. Just wait until the 2021–22 season, because then we will see what they have to say about that. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Update. List of NBA playoff series has also been affected. I reverted the changes that indicated play-in games as playoff games. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:34, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Is is just me or is that page WP:NOTSTATS?—Bagumba (talk) 16:01, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba: I thought the same thing when I looked at it. It basically duplicates the information of "List of TEAM seasons" pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. I was wrongly under impression that "List of TEAM seasons" only listed their final playoff round, not each series. And some of those team lists are FLs. Go figure.—Bagumba (talk) 01:12, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Vinnylospo that play-in games should have their own section, separate from the sections for regular season games and playoff games. Play-in games are neither playoffs nor regular season games. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 05:45, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Update The close of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2021 NBA Play-in Tournament indicates that that the play-in tournament should not be treated as part of the playoffs.—Bagumba (talk) 07:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Standings tables

Now that the regular season is over, the Module:Sports table mock up still looks loads better than the current one. Plus you can add footnotes for tiebreakers easily. (People can't wrap their heads on how the Mavs, Blazers and Lakers tie was broken, for example.) 2020–21 NBA G League season even uses it to good effect. Perhaps updating to the 21st century is now a good idea? Howard the Duck (talk) 14:04, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Whatever the project decides, I would recommend that the tables for this season and historic seasons become overhauled to a consistent format.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 22:41, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

The format should have been changed years ago. I wonder why the current format—which was always obsolete—was kept. In addition, some standings templates seem to be broken and go to Category:National Basketball Association Eastern Conference standings templates or Category:National Basketball Association Western Conference standings templates instead of Category:National Basketball Association Conference standings templates. And I will also point out that every standings template from 1946–47 to 1969–70 should go to a different category, because Western/Eastern Division ≠ Western/Eastern Conference. The division title was always a regular season thing and the so called "Division Finals" were simply there to determine the teams that would play in the BAA/NBA Finals. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:42, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I think I introduced the qualification tables that we are now using, but we should change to either what the Stanley Cup playoffs is using (with minor changes), or use the standings tables. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry for not being able to easily change them all over a while back, as I was too busy with other stuff. I also wanted future templates moved to separate Eastern and Western Division categories, but any possible changes will most likely happen during the off-season, right after I finish assembling standings templates for the upcoming NBA and NHL seasons (and I haven't done that yet because it's unknown what changes, if there are any, will entail).

On that note, I've already thanked Sabbatino for moving all the conference templates to separate categories. –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 16:53, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Piranha249: I can easily move the Easter/Western division templates to new categories, but a name is needed for those categories. I do know that you do a lot of NHL stuff here and appreciate it but moving something to a new category is not hard even without specific tools. You can always ask me for help with such moves. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:32, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

You can go ahead now (links to Eastern and Western categories). –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 19:37, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Piranha249: Done. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:49, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Sabbatino, Two more things:

• I'm requesting a template move of all standings so that they either use "Division" or "Conference" as a suffix, starting with the East and West Division standings (which do need an update, anyway).
• When you said "even without specific tools," what exact tools can there be used to avoid situations like that in the future? –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 22:10, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Piranha249: I cannot remember the name of that tool, but I have seen other editors use it to change categories in pages, lists, templates, etc. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm indifferent, as I neither edit or look at these much.—Bagumba (talk) 06:53, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

pictures in NBA draft articles

Potential edit war going on in 2018 NBA draft. Whose pictures should be included? Some past articles include NBA All-Stars, etc. My contention is that for the last few years players haven't had the chance to develop into All-Stars and it’s Ok to keep top college players and high draft picks, so long as the pictures don’t extend beyond the table showing the draft order. Can we get consensus on this? Rikster2 (talk) 02:29, 9 June 2021 (UTC) Rikster2 (talk)

I'll wait to hear the counterargument. Generally per WP:NOCONSENSUS: a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit One person disagreeing with another does not generally result in a change.—Bagumba (talk) 01:55, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

What is your opinion on whose pictures should be shown on draft articles? To my knowledge, there has never been any consensus discussion to only include pictures of NBA award winners on draft articles, yet there has clearly been an effort to cut these back to this and it’s being guarded as if it were consensus, including deletion of pictures of the #1 overall pick in some articles. In reality, the pages with MORE pictures was the “original state,” and was so for years Rikster2 (talk) 03:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

... so long as the pictures don’t extend beyond the table showing the draft order: For my screen, pics from draftee Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and after spill over to the undrafted section.—Bagumba (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Excessive details at Nikola Jokić

I have added {{Overly detailed}} to Nikola Jokić's page, which was removed based on WP:AADP#Personal taste. I feel like the 2020–21 season section should be trimmed down since it has a lot of fancruft. In addition, the lead has four references for one fact (NBA MVP) when MOS specifically says that there should not really be any references in the lead in most cases. – Sabbatino (talk) 18:02, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I believe that the 2020–21 season section should stay as it is. It is somewhat longer than previous sections, but the material added is not excessive, and exhibits only the most important information regarding accomplishments throughout a truly historic season. This same season would lead to an NBA MVP award, therefore giving further importance to the events which led to the honor. Many personal and league-wide accomplishments were achieved by Nikola Jokić during his MVP run, and only those instances were included. There is no superfluous content. As for the lead and the excessive use of references, I'm sure that there could be a less drastic solution. Possibly leaving one main reference(NBA.com), if any. The information is referenced in the following sections of the article, so maybe no references are needed in this specific case. Docholliday11 (talk) 00:25, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I’m not sure it’s too bad, but I’d be careful of chronicling too many individual games. Individual games over an 82-game season are rarely all that notable in the grand scheme of things. But some of the info about things like triple doubles and historic achievements sem appropriate and by and large are well sourced. Rikster2 (talk) 00:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thank you. Docholliday11 (talk) 01:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

It is long, even moreso if I wasn't a basketball fan. For starters, remove any games that's only a stat line and doesn't involve anything otherwise notable. There's a few regular season games like that, and pretty much the whole playoffs. We ideally want to summarize, not go into individual games minutiae. Next, if a career high is set multiple time in a season, just mention the last one. The rest is a tougher call on making an editorial decision. There's a lot of SportCenter-like factorids like 8th birthday triple-double or first person with 45–15–8 since X in YYYY year that become exhausting for an accomplished player. See LeBron James for reference—it's a GA.—Bagumba (talk) 05:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I'll do my best to work through the section and make some adjustments.Docholliday11 (talk) 07:54, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

As discussed, I started trimming down the section, removing some less notable events. I'm still making some decisions on what else I might be able to adjust. Also, I'm waiting for their postseason run to end before creating an adequate playoff summary.Docholliday11 (talk) 04:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Another option with the Denver-specific items would be to move some of the less notable ones to 2020–21 Denver Nuggets season, where there is more leeway for details related to the season and team.—Bagumba (talk) 10:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I've decided to follow your previous advice and made some tougher editorial decisions, removing everything except for the events of utmost importance. The current condensed version is much more enjoyable to read than it was previously. Now I'm just waiting for the end of the playoffs to create a shortened summary of his postseason. Thank you for your guidance.Docholliday11 (talk) 11:53, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding one of the most recent edits to the 'Player profile' section, another editor added his career averages, height/weight, and position. I'm not quite sure if the added content belongs in that section considering it is already properly presented in 'NBA career statistics'(career averages), as well as the infobox (height/weight, position). What are your thoughts on whether or not the addition is an overall improvement? Your input would be greatly appreciated.Docholliday11 (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Disregard my latest post. I noticed that similar content is present in the 'Player Profile' section of other players throughout the league as well.Docholliday11 (talk) 06:50, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

On the nitpicky side, I'd say steals and blocks for him are minor and would leave those for the stats table.—Bagumba (talk) 07:19, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive additions of templates?

Does anyone else think that Jgwilliams873 (talk · contribs) is being disruptive by adding {{Lead too short}}, {{Update}}, {{Expand section}} and other maintenance templates to NBA-related BLPs and other pages? – Sabbatino (talk) 11:48, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

The bigger issue is tagging for article updates on players/coaches who have been retired for years and for whom there really isn't anything new to report. Rikster2 (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I left a notice on their talk page about this discussion.—Bagumba (talk) 03:53, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Hey! I'm so sorry if you thought I was being disruptive. I assure you I'm not trying to be. I'm just trying to help fix some of these older articles. Even if the subjects are retired, I think it is unfair that they don't possess more information like "hot", "young" players today. I was adding the tags to these articles to draw the attention of fellow editors, in the hopes that they might add missing sections with information like "Early Life", "Personal Life", or "Head Coaching Record". I just wanted these older guys to get some love by having their articles expanded. Jgwilliams873 (talk) 15:23, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@Jgwilliams873: It is almost impossible to update the majority of retired player and coach pages. In some instances we can hardly find anything else than information from some statistics database. So just blindly adding tags everywhere is not the solution. In addition, you should look for information yourself and update the pages accordingly and when you run out of sources – then add the maintenance templates. Your edits at the moment look like WP:TENDENTIOUS, which is one of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

The language in Template:Update makes it appropriate for subjects where there are recent notable things that have happened to them since the time the article was last substantially edited (player has changed teams and it isn't documented in the prose, etc). Players and coaches whose careers are over and who are largely out of the public eye shouldn't have this tag, it should have an expansion tags like Template:Stub (if the article is a stub). Rikster2 (talk) 17:50, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

This guy added the aforementioned tag to FIBA tournaments that happened almost 70 years ago(!!!) It was obvious this guy doesn't know what he is doing. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

{{update}} also says "Do not mark an article as needs updating, without a reason, unless it is very obvious." Otherwise, a reason should be specified or a talk page discussion should be linked.—Bagumba (talk) 09:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Jgwilliams873 has now moved on to swimmers, many of which are long out of the limelight and some are well known. Looks like a well-intentioned CIR issue, but they don't seem to understand what the tags are supposed to be for. Yosemiter (talk) 22:42, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Sources needed at Don Anielak

Don Anielak has been put up for AfD. While I think it’s pretty clear he’s notable (and he meets WP:NBASKETBALL), there is a legitimate issue with the lack of sources demonstrating notability on the article. This isn’t something I will have time to get to until early next week so I thought I’d throw it out to the project and see if anyone can help flesh out the article a bit and shore up the sourcing. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 17:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Nationality and birthplace fields

Someone has removed the nationality from Pau Gasol's inbox citing WP:INFONAT, basically that nationality does not need to be stated if it can be determined from their birthplace—Barcelona, Spain in this case. Now generally for Americans and Canadian we list <city>, <state/province>, without the country, so listing nationality is not redundant. However, most places around the world just go by <city>, <country> e.g. Rudy Gobert. Should we just keep with project status quo, always listing nationality, or modify? I've seen do-gooders add "U.S" to the birthplace, but this is the first time I've seen an edit like this.—Bagumba (talk) 06:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Moved to Template talk:Infobox basketball biography § Nationality

Deandre Ayton discovered at band practice?

Did this story about Deandre Ayton originate on Wikipedia? There are some fairly lengthy articles about his early years that don’t say anything about this. Zagalejo (talk) 13:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@Zagalejo: Possibly. It was added by a one-off user in 2017 claiming a source from 2007 (supposedly documented somewhere in here). We would have to try to dig through some archives of that source to WP:V though. Yosemiter (talk) 13:58, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

This article by CNBC explores Ayton's start in basketball as a 12-year-old, where scouts at a camp were drawn to his "preternatural agility and coordination" rather than him blowing a tuba. Looks like WP:COI. CalDoesIt (talk) 16:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Several articles mention him playing the drums, but not the tuba. That whole “Early life” section is rather dubious and confusing, and the cited source is not very helpful. (If something was written in 2007, that would have been when Ayton was nine years old, which doesn’t fit the rest of the narrative presented.) I’m going to trim that section. Zagalejo (talk) 12:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Garnett's trash talk

Hello, the article about Kevin Garnett doesn't mention his famous trash-talking incidents. Please add them. --179.26.46.113 (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Somehow I think this encyclopedic article will sustain relevance regardless. Rikster2 (talk) 23:49, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

DYK deleted

I deleted my "DYK"'s. Sorry for that. -_- TheRafaMarc15 (talk) 07:56, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Player position in the lead

I think most of our bios don't even mention the position in the lead, but sometimes it's like at Nikola Jokić: "... is a Serbian professional basketball player for the Denver Nuggets of the National Basketball Association (NBA). The center is a ..." Does anyone have an issue if its in the lead sentence like some other sports' bios e.g. ... is a Serbian professional basketball player who is a center for the Denver Nuggets ...—Bagumba (talk) 07:30, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not fond of this proposal. In my opinion, we could continue listing it in two sentences as in the first example OR we could probably do like ice hockey pages do it – ...is an American professional ice hockey right winger for the.... However, we would then get the WP:SEAOFBLUE issue with two consecutive links and this usage in ice hockey BLPs is inconsistent to this day since some just say ...is an American professional ice hockey player for the... – Sabbatino (talk) 08:02, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Aside from SEAOFBLUE, it just sounds informal to cram a sport in front of position.—Bagumba (talk) 08:10, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

So Stephen Curry currenty starts ... is an American professional basketball player for the Golden State Warriors of the National Basketball Association (NBA). He plays the point guard position. Many analysts and players have called him the greatest shooter in NBA history It seems a bit choppy for the second sentence to be so short just to state his position. It's not straight-forward for a drive-by editor to integrate it into the Many analysts ... sentence. Adding into the first sentence would makes it easy for a WP:GNOME to mechanically add it.—Bagumba (talk) 08:46, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not a fan of any of the propositions. In my opinion, the position should not be listed at all in the lead, because there are enough edit wars in the infoboxes by drive-by or new editors, and sockpuppets (you know who I have in mind). – Sabbatino (talk) 10:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

I added the position to the Curry article and to the Chris Paul article. In Curry's article it can be reworded as "...Curry is an American professional basketball player who is a point guard for the Golden State Warriors..." or "...Curry is an American professional basketball point guard for the Golden State Warriors..." For both Curry and Paul, position is notable because they have been described as some of the greatest point guards in the league. As for edit wars, both Curry and Paul exclusively play the point guard position, and both articles are semi-protected. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 05:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossover1370: The sources and the sentence on Curry's page says Many analysts and players have called him the greatest shooter in NBA history. so no, he is not one of the best point guards. None of the analysts put him among the best point guards, because he is only good at shooting. And about edit wars – there is a known sockpuppet who creates a new account almost every week so this does not apply to only Paul and Curry. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba and Sabbatino: I am specifically talking about the cases of Curry and Chris Paul (CP3), since those are the articles I edited. In the case of Curry, the position is notable because point guards are generally thought of as playmakers and good ball-handlers, not necessarily good shooters as in the case of Curry. As for CP3, he has been described as the best point guard in the league (see the player profile section of his article). For players in which position is not a key part of their notability, or is ambiguous or disputed, position should not be included in the lead. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 21:37, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Crossover1370: It's a limitation, here, that notifications only work on new signed posts i.e. it won't work if you modify an old post like you did. Courtesy ping to Sabbatino —Bagumba (talk) 02:51, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Crossover1370: Your proposal would be ok if we had an editor-in-chief, but Wikipedia is crowd sourced. Drive-by editors won't catch the nuance of when to add or not. For me personally, I generally don't spend time adding it to the lead, but I don't actively remove them either. If someone does add it, my only wish is that it is elegantly integrated into the lead, not simple sentences like "He plays the point guard position".—Bagumba (talk) 03:44, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

I reworded the sentences in both the Curry and CP3 articles but then Sabbatino reverted those edits. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 05:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossover1370: Do not say that there is clear consensus when it is the opposite. The same is either done to all pages or none. – Sabbatino (talk) 10:22, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

For some players position is a core part of their notability; for others it is not. Sabbatino, do you believe that the positions should be added to all articles or none? Going down WP:WikiProject Basketball/Popular pages, several basketball player articles already have position in the lead: Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas, Allen Iverson, Zion Williamson, James Harden, Chet Holmgren, Anthony Davis, Kevin Garnett, Muggsy Bogues, Dirk Nowitzki, Isiah Thomas, etc. Is there any guidelines for when or not to include position in the lead? Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 15:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossover1370: Whoever implemented the lead at Wilt's page should have consulted with someone from here before making the change. Regarding the positions – I am against of having it in the first sentence (current proposal). Having it in the second sentence is fine by me, but I agree that simply writing "He played as a point guard." is not perfect and it should be joined into other sentences, which mention the player's achievements or similar things. I already gave the lead's example used on ice hockey BLPs at the beginning of this discussion, but even that is not really perfect. In addition, player's height should not always be listed as each playing position has their usual height standards and only in very special cases it should be listed (shortest/tallest player, unusual height for specific position, etc). – Sabbatino (talk) 18:49, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

After I added "He plays the point guard position" on both the Curry and CP3 articles, I integrated the sentences: "...is an American professional basketball player who is a point guard for..." Then you, Sabbatino, reverted those edits. Are you now saying that you prefer these versions and you shouldn't have reverted them? Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 19:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossover1370: No, I am against these versions. I do not really see where you got the idea that I am in favor of them. In addition, you should know that you are supposed to start a discussion when you are first reverted per WP:BRD (you did this so that is good) and that WP:STATUSQUO should be preserved until the discussion is over. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Because you stated that I agree that simply writing "He played as a point guard." is not perfect and it should be joined into other sentences, which mention the player's achievements or similar things. My version integrated the sentences. I overlooked the part which said I am against of having it in the first sentence (current proposal). Would this be a better choice?
[Stephen Curry] is an American professional basketball player for the Golden State Warriors of the National Basketball Association (NBA). A point guard, many analysts and players have called him the greatest shooter in NBA history. Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 19:59, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

That is better, but I still feel that there is room for improvement. In my opinion, Playing as a point guard, he is regarded as the greatest shooter in NBA history by many (this word could be omitted) analysts and players. But this is about all the players and not just Curry and Paul. If this is implemented then it should be done for every basketball BLP or none. Or this could be done on a case-by-base basis as Bagumba proposed earlier (I am still not sold on this at the moment but it can change). – Sabbatino (talk) 20:16, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I edited the Curry and CP3 articles because those are the articles I first came across (I could've edited many more). I explained in this thread why position is notable for both players. It seems that all three people in this discussion believe that "He plays the point guard position" is strange sentence structure. Bagumba and Sabbatino, in which cases do you think position should be included in the lead? Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 21:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Or this could be done on a case-by-base basis as Bagumba proposed earlier: Sabbatino, I think you are refering to Crossover1370 earlier writing: For players in which position is not a key part of their notability, or is ambiguous or disputed, position should not be included in the lead. —Bagumba (talk) 12:52, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Pinging isento for their perspective, as they have modfied Chris Paul's position with a related rationale, including "avoid choppy too-short sentences".[3]—Bagumba (talk) 04:42, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

How about "so-and-so is an American professional basketball player who plays the so-and-so position for the so-and-so's of the National Basketball Association"? If this hasn't been suggested already. isento (talk) 05:02, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Or "<player> is an American professional basketball <position> for the <team> of the National Basketball Association?" Crossover1370 (talk | contribs) 05:14, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I think, in the spirit of WP:AUDIENCE, that we lead with the general descriptor of "basketball player" and then the more specialist-descriptor of position. I mean, neither version is wrong grammatically, but if I'm to be asked and forced to pick, I'd base it on some principle relevant to the reader and my own impression of what feels right here. isento (talk) 05:36, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Crossover1370: I already proposed this formation at the beginning of this discussion since it is used for ice hockey BLPs, but it was already indicated that this formation would not really help. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:54, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

I find "he plays point guard" in Curry's lead to stick out like a sore thumb since player positions usually aren't in the leads of wiki basketball player articles. I don't think it should be in the lead. Putting player positions in the lead isn't wiki's typical mode. It's choppy and, in Curry's case, when it isn't in the first sentence, it disturbs the flow of the lead paragraph that notes (and is supposed to note) what Curry is most notable for, which is being considered the greatest shooter of all time and changing the game of basketball. MOS:ROLEBIO says, "The noteworthy position(s) or role(s) the person held should usually be stated in the opening paragraph. However, avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various and sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-noteworthy roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph."

Sabbatino said "None of the analysts put [Curry] among the best point guards, because he is only good at shooting." But Curry has often made the "top 10" or "top 15" point guard lists in reliable sources (for example, he's #2 on this top ten point guard list by Bleacher Report, #3 on this top ten point guard list by NBC Sports, and #1 on this top fifteen point guard list by CBS Sports) and analysts such as Stephen A. Smith and Max Kellerman have considered (or debated) him among the top ten point guards.[4][5] He was very recently debated by analysts here as the NBA's best point guard in comparison to Chris Paul. Analysts talk about how Curry's much more than a shooter since he makes great plays, has handles that enable him to finish well under the rim, and has a gravity effect like no other basketball player because teams are so concerned about his shooting ability when he's on the court. But he's not most notable for being a point guard. So I agree with Sabbatino to remove it from the lead. Leave it to the infobox. If we keep "plays point guard" in Curry's and Paul's articles, it should have a better flow and be in the first sentence, like it does and is in Paul's article right now. At Curry's article, Sabbatino said "He plays point guard" is the status quo, but it's not. It's a new addition. I don't like the suggestion of "Playing as a point guard, he is regarded as the greatest shooter in NBA history" because playing point guard isn't why he's regarded that way. "Playing the point guard position", which is used in Paul's article, is better. Catalyst30 (talk) 09:15, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Is there a way to quickly add all players to watchlist

Logistics question, but I was wondering if there was a quick way to add all players (current and/or past players) to my watchlist. Thought I would ask if anyone knew an easier way before I start individually clicking through rosters. Thanks RichieConant34 (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think watchlist only shows latest 500 changes, so you'll end missing a lot of "recent" changes if you load up your list. Depends what you want. An alternative is using "related changes" (see help:Watchlist#Alternatives_to_watchlists).—Bagumba (talk) 04:52, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

You can change that in your settings and choose to see up to 1,000 recent edits. -- Calidum 05:16, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

You could go to each team's player category (Category:Boston Celtics players for example), copy all the names, and then add them to your raw watchlist. -- Calidum 05:16, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Many years ago, I tried to monitor the recent changes of each alphabetical subpage at Lists of National Basketball Association players. It's exhausting work. The vandalism doesn't require much thought to clean up, but there was always a deluge of sloppy, "partially good" edits to assess and clean up. Zagalejo (talk) 18:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I also wondered if this was a possibility. I wish Wikipedia had something like this in place, but people would also want it in place for other types of articles. I wanted to quickly add all pages about, or talking about, Reggie Miller to my watchlist, but I couldn't find a way to do it. So I settled for watchlisting and copyediting his article and then adding Miller pages to my watchlist. I'm not looking to watch out for vandalism, but having pages on a watchlist will help with that. Catalyst30 (talk) 09:04, 8 July 2021 (UTC)