Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 23

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Category:NBA Finals MVP Award winners

Category:NBA Finals MVP Award winners, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award winners

Category:NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award winners, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:NBA Slam Dunk Contest champions

Category:NBA Slam Dunk Contest champions, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:National Basketball Association scoring champions

Category:National Basketball Association scoring champions, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Category discussions

Right now, the sentiment of the conversation is to delete these NBA categories (listed above). If you have an opinion on whether or not they should exist or be deleted, please go participate in the conversation. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:37, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Anthony Davis Stat line

Although very different from the 40 points and 15 assists CP3 put up the other night, Anthony Davis put up an incredible stat line last night: 25 Pts, 8 Reb, 4 Ast, 6 Stl, 6 Blk. It is the only 25p/6st/6bl stat line in the last 20 seasons plus he had 8 res and 4 assists! In reporting the night I was shocked to find out how overlooked his performance was. ESPN reported it as one of 5 25p/5st/5bl stat lines in the last 20 seasons. Every story I can find only mentioned his career-high 6 blocks. No story mentioned his career-high 6 steals. Also, from what I can tell he raised his consecutive free throw streak to 37 (going back to April) before missing one. I emailed two Pelican writers at NOLA.com who cover the Pelicans and one confirmed it is a career high in steals. Neither has had anything to say about the free throws. Am I far off thinking that 37 consecutive free throws is probably top 5 in Hornet/Pelican franchise history? How can I find out?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:21, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Finding out franchise records for consecutive free throws made is quite difficult, but it's still possible. I tried to use basketball-reference's player streak finder to find consecutive games without missed free throws using the following two methods:

1. Inserting the following criteria: FT = FTA.

Here is the results from the past six seasons. From there, you can see that Darius Miller played 52 games without missing any free throws, but in those 52 games he only attempted 8 free throws, while Davis' streak that you mentioned was only stretched for 5 games (#174 on that list). It's gonna take a hard look on each player's game logs to count the total consecutive free throws made, considering the longest streaks are mostly filled with bench players who rarely attempts a free throw.

2. Inserting the following criteria: FT% = 1.000 (somehow when I put 1.000 as the value, the website recognizes it as 0.010, so I put FT% = 100 instead and it works)

Here is the results from the past six seasons. From there, you can see that Peja Stojakovic played six consecutive games with 100% free throws made and at least one free throw made/attempted in a game. In this criteria, when a player doesn't make/attempt any free throw in a game, it considers that the streak has ended. The list shows that Stojakovic's streak stretched from 2009-02-02 to 2009-02-11, but according to his game log, Stojakovic did not miss any free throw from 2009-01-30 to 2009-02-21 (there are three games in between where he did not make/attempt any free throw).

On a closer look, I found that Stojakovic made 35 consecutive free throws from 2009-01-28 to 2009-02-21. Considering that Stojakovic is the best free throw shooter in Hornets franchise history, I'd say that Davis' 37 consecutive free throws should rank high on their franchise history. However, I'm too lazy to look through all these players' streaks to find out the records. Hopefully this helps, and hopefully others will come up with an easier way to find consecutive free throws streaks. — MT (talk) 08:26, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, my curiosity beats my laziness so I went through that streaks list. Here's what I found so far:

• David West made 43 consecutive free throws between 8/03/2010 to 24/03/2010
• Chris Paul made 41 consecutive free throws between 3/12/2008 to 16/12/2008
• David West made 40 consecutive free throws between 22/03/2009 to 3/04/2009
• Chris Paul made 40 consecutive free throws between 19/11/2010 to 5/12/2010
• P. J. Brown made 39 consecutive free throws between 22/01/2003 to 26/02/2003
• Anthony Davis made 37 consecutive free throws between 5/04/2013 to 2/11/2013

And some older streaks which are just approximate (there are no play-by-play logs so it's impossible to find out which free throw they missed in the previous game before the streak and the following game):

• Dell Curry made at least 42 consecutive free throws between 9/11/1994 to 14/12/1994 (with a possible 48 consecutive free throws)
• Dell Curry made at least 42 consecutive free throws between 31/01/1997 to 21/03/1997 (with a possible 46 consecutive free throws)
• Hersey Hawkins made at least 34 consecutive free throws between 16/01/1994 to 2/02/1994 (with a possible 44 consecutive free throws)
• Dell Curry made at least 27 consecutive free throws between 20/11/1992 to 9/12/1992 (with a possible 39 consecutive free throws)

Davis' streak is definitely not in the top 5 in Hornets history, but it's pretty remarkable performance for a young player. — MT (talk) 14:22, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

• Wow. You found all this out from basketball-reference.com? Very impressive. I guess looking at Paul, Curry, and West it seems that if a player can get hot like this once, it is likely that he can get hot like this again. I'll have to keep an eye on this one. Thanks for all your assistance. Surprised Stojakovic is not higher on the list, though.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

NBA Coaches/Franchise template

Hello - there is an edit war brewing at Template:Cleveland Cavaliers. Essentially a Cleveland-centric user is removing one of the instances of Mike Brown, arguing that the second wikilink that comes with his second tenure is redundant so he removes it. The issue is that this is the template that serves as the chronology of coaches and now that chronology is misleading/has a gap. This particular issue isn't that big a deal, but it does make me think it is time to come to a decision on something that has been discussed several times before - how should the chronology of coaches be shown in templates? We have two models - 1) the Lakers, which has the separate Template:Los Angeles Lakers coach navbox and for whom coaches don't appear on the franchise template at all, and 2) everybody else, where the coach lineage shows on the general franchise template showing only last names and no tenures. I'd recommend that we adopt one model or the other and apply it to all. But if we stick with the generic franchise template I'd recommend that full names and tenures be added so that the template serves the same purpose of showing the lineage of coaches (like the Lakers coach navbox or any college coach navbox does). Thoughts? Rikster2 (talk) 15:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no edit war. Rikster has ignored the established format in place at the Cleveland Cavaliers template since last April (added by other "Clevand-centric" editors). He has also been unwilling to discuss the matter on the template talk page and has violated WP:3RR. Levdr1lp / talk 16:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Unwilling to discuss it at the article talk page? You mean with you, basically? I've suggested a consensus discussion several times but you don't seem that interested. As you can see from my proposal, I am suggesting that the coach info be enhanced as with many other templates which should negate your concern one way or the other (because it would be a clear chronology or not there at all) - do you have opinions on my proposal? Rikster2 (talk) 16:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The *first* place you should go is the template/article/etc. talk page, not my talk page, and not a WikiProject talk page. Still waiting for that. Levdr1lp / talk 16:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Nobody reads a template talk page. But I'll put a link to this discussion there so that the multitudes that go there will somehow find this proposal. This is a broader discussion as whatever is decided should be applied to all 30 NBA franchsie templates. Rikster2 (talk) 16:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

This user reads template talk pages. Assuming no one else does, however, what good will a link to this discussion do? Levdr1lp / talk 16:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

"this user" was also aware of this discussion on here. But I put a notice and reverted my last edit until consensus can be reached. Rikster2 (talk) 16:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Create head coach templates, remove head coach list from franchise templates - I want to get this discussion off on the right foot. In the first message I laid out an issue and a couple of options. As always, another option is to stay as is and have inconsistency across the teams. My official vote in the matter is to create specific head coach templates ala the Lakers and just remove the head coach list from franchise templates altogether. I would also be OK with (though not my first choice) adding full names/tenures to the franchise infobox across the board. I'd really prefer to see consistency with how we handle every NBA team's coaching history in templates and not stay "as is." Rikster2 (talk) 19:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

• It makes sense to me that pro and college basketball teams as well as other sports have separate coach chronology templates. Why did pro basketball go to merging coaches into a larger template?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's so much that the templates were merged - I looked at the Sacramento Kings template and it was created with coaches displayed as they are today back in 2008. It's just that nobody took the time to create the coach-specific navboxes. Of the current "big four" North American sports, the NBA is the only one that does not have coach navboxes. The NFL, MLB and NHL all do (though the NHL uses 2 different formats depending on the team and still lists them on the franchise templates - not sure I'd recommend that model). Rikster2 (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
    • We used to have succession boxes for the coaches, but those were phased out. I'd be OK with a separate navbox for each team's coaches, similar to what is done at the college coach pages. It's helpful to show the full chronology.
    • It might also be good to discuss the intended purpose of the big franchise templates. Some of them are more like "scrapbooks" from fans than useful navigational aids. Take Template:Chicago Bulls. Unless you already know a lot about the Bulls, it can be hard to find what you are looking for. Links to major players are hidden behind jersey numbers or nicknames, and some of the links (eg "Hare Jordan") don't lead to anything useful at all. Zagalejo^^^ 00:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support separate navbox for coaches. Most teams I think already have a list article for the team's coaches, and that can be linked from the team navbox, without needing to overload the team navbox with each coach. Agree with Zag that team navboxes can use a cleanup of cruft.—Bagumba (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
• Note: The previous consensus for separate team coaches navbox was at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_17#Head_coach-specific_navboxes—Bagumba (talk) 02:19, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support head coach-only navboxes with full names and tenures. These would be incredibly useful for navigation and would help eliminate part of the team navbox "scrapbook" problem mentioned above. Also, for coaches like P. J. Carlesimo who have been head coaches in both college and the NBA, keeping head-coach only navboxes with tenures makes it incredibly easy to see when they were at each respective team. The College Basketball and NBA projects don't need to be in agreement on everything (after all, they're different levels of competition), but uniformity and collaboration between the two would go a long way in making it easier for readers of basketball biography articles across the English Wikipedia. I support Rikster2's proposal. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support full names and tenures in a coach-only navboxes. Using just the last name is potentially typo-prone and reduces the readability of the navbox. I'm also for repeating coaches when they have multiple tenures with the same team. For another discussion, I'd split up the franchise navboxes into multiple navboxes. — X96lee15 (talk) 16:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Any information in a franchise navbox should be in the article infobox. It's redundant in the navbox. — X96lee15 (talk) 16:48, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• A navbox for coaches should be added/created as Bagumba said with full names and years like the flakers navbox above. Kante4 (talk) 17:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

So far there is agreement - at what point should we consider this consensus and begin creating coach infoboxes and removing coach names from franchise templates? For the record, I did put a link to this discussion on all 30 NBA franchise templates so that users of those templates can find this discussion. I also expressly invited the two editors at the Cavs template who may have a different preference for how that template appears, though one specifically declined and advised that we in this discussion are free to comment on that template's Talk page and the other just hasn't responded either way. Rikster2 (talk) 00:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

• I was requested to comment on the tenure display. I am indifferent between including or excluding tenure on a dedicated coach template. I would just suggest that we make the pro basketball coach templates similar in format to the college coach templates.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I support dedicated head coach navboxes for the NBA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:35, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I also support Rikster2's proposal, that dedicated navboxes for head coaches should be created for each NBA team, and the individual coaches should be removed from the main team navbox. And I also agree that the team navboxes are ripe for a major cleanup of cruft. Jweiss11 (talk) 01:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Created first new template - since there has been 100% agreement I decided we had adequate consensus to proceed. I started with the Cavs (seemed fitting) and will work on more this week. Feel free to help create these templates if you like. Thanks! Rikster2 (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Rikster2, thanks for kicking all of this off. I just knocked out Template:Boston Celtics coach navbox. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I did {{New York Knicks coach navbox}} and {{Chicago Bulls coach navbox}}. How do I determine which coaches were interim?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:58, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

No one is responding. I see Jweiss11 did some cleanup, but I still don't know which ones were interim. Some were obvious, but I am not going to add the indicator until there is confirmation. I am going to put these two templates on pages tonight even without having figured out who was interim.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:40, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. I also did the {{Los Angeles Clippers coach navbox}}. I have noticed that whoever did the Celtics box removed {{Boston Celtics}} from the pages, while the person who did the Lakers just added the coaches navbox template. For the three teams that I did, I just added the coaching navbox.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:06, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Tony, the generic franchise templates definitely need to go (unless the person appears on it some other way I suppose). Also remove a succession box that the coach template covers. Also, you need to remove the head coaches from the franchise template. Rikster2 (talk) 01:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Display name convention decision needed - All, just looking at the work so far - first, thanks! Second though, I was looking at Template:Atlanta Hawks coach navbox and noticed that the display name is "Tri-Cities Blackhawks / Milwaukee Hawks / St. Louis Hawks / Atlanta Hawks head coaches." We need to decide as a project if that is the convention we want to follow for active franchises or not. It does follow the NFL model (see Template:Indianapolis Colts coach navbox), but baseball uses the modern name only for the display header (see Template:Minnesota Twins managers, which does not show the Washington Senators name). Personally, I would prefer to use the modern names only for active franchises. Otherwise it looks too clunky IMO. But that's a consensus decision, so what do others think? Rikster2 (talk) 00:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Rikster2, you bring up a good point. There's a trade-off here between comprehensiveness and clunkiness. The college football and college basketball coach navboxes often show former names, e.g. Template:Stanford Cardinal football coach navbox and Template:Stanford Cardinal men's basketball coach navbox. Perhaps we ought to developme a convention that applies to all coach navboxes across sports and levels? Jweiss11 (talk) 01:49, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I just don't think the franchise history name is all that relevant to an infobox for coaches. Heck , the general franchise templates themselves only display the modern name, and you could make more of an argument those should dislay the naming history at the top (I am not advocating this). For what it is worth, I never liked it on the college templates either, I just didn't feel strongly enough to argue. But at this point, we are creating these from scratch so i think we can set the standard from the outset. We already deviate from the NFL on style matter a decent amount (and that is OK in my book), I don't see this as something we must follow suit with. Rikster2 (talk) 05:59, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, Jweiss11 - thank you for all of your work creating these - very much appreciated. Rikster2 (talk) 06:04, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, we should come up with a cross-sports convention for interim coach notion. How should the pound signs be formatted. The convention from college sports and the NFL is as seen here Template:Atlanta Hawks coach navbox, but they are spaced differently and super-scripted here: Template:New Orleans Pelicans coach navbox. Also, the head coach lists (e.g. List of New Orleans Pelicans head coaches) ought to make note of interim status. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The previous consensus at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_17#Format_for_interim_coaches was to supersript and not refer to it as "pound sign". Having #, which acts as a footnote of sorts, just looks strange if it isnt superscrited. Pound sign to describe # is very American-centric. Number sign is more neutral, but why are words even needed to describe the # symbol? The key at an FL like All-NBA Team doesn't spell out "asterisk" or "caret".—Bagumba (talk) 02:30, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Bagumba, these are good arguments, but we should have a consensus for all sports (certainly American college football, basketball, baseball, MLB, NFL, and NBA) because these various navboxes butt up right next to one another on many articles. This may be the time to make some sort of taskforce, perhaps at Wikipedia:WikiProject Sports to align multiple sports projects on details like this. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:02, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Consistency among projects is admirable, and anyone can pursue in parallel if they desire. Meanwhile, for these new templates that are being created for this NBA project, I see no compelling reason being offered to blindly follow other projects' precedent of ignoring MOS:COMMONALITY with the term "pound sign" when the using the symbol # alone would suffice.—Bagumba (talk) 02:19, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Can we get more input on display name for coach infoboxes? - My personal taste is that I would really prefer to only use the modern franchise names on coach templates, with the historic names perhaps noted in the body of the template itself. However, I realize I am just one voice here. It seems like Jweiss11 favors listing out previous names in the header, but I don't believe that anyone else has offered an opinion. As noted, we can go either way and be consistent with at least one of the other major sports projects. Rikster2 (talk) 12:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we should omit historical names. They are sort of clutter here. This is not the place to provide that historical content.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:21, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

There are certainly benefits to both options. It's a trade off between comprehensiveness and succinctness/neatness. In the case of say a Lenny Wilkens, it seems a little goofy to have a navbox in the footer that just says "Oklahoma City Thunder head coaches" since he coached the Sonics long before they moved to Oklahoma City. The NFL and many college navboxes are showing historical names. MLB is not. Whichever option, I'd like to see a standard applied uniformly across these subject areas. What really needs work now are the team navboxes, e.g. Template:Los Angeles Lakers. Jweiss11 (talk) 02:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree it might be a bit weird to see Lenny Wilkens as a coach of the OKC Thunder, according to the navbox, but I think we should omit historical names. IMO it looks more ridiculous to see this with so many names on it. Just my opinion though. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I am going to omit the historical names. Rikster2 (talk) 22:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Update

I've finished creating and transcluding coach navboxes for all 30 active NBA teams; see: Category:National Basketball Association coach navigational boxes. While doing this I also did quite a bit of clean-up, particularly on the footers of the coach bio articles, deleting all coaching succession boxes and tweaking external links, navboxes, persondata, and categories. I reorganized the navboxes into groupings for "championships, awards, and honors" (in cases where there were three or more of such navboxes) while leaving positional navboxes above and outside of the grouping. This is the prevailing convention used for college football and basketball coaches. I also created a new category, Category:Sports coach navigational boxes to help unify and coordinate coach navboxes across sports and leagues. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Template:NBATeam

I have nominated Template:NBATeam for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Draft choice templates

WP:NBA is often very similar to WP:MLB and WP:NFL in its templating use. Above we have just attempted to make our coaching history navboxes more like what is found elsewhere on WP I continue to find it troubling that NBA does not have first round draft choice by franchise templates. Football and Baseball both have one of these for each franchise. At one time we discussed this and there was some debate about whether basketball should 1st and 2nd round by franchise if it had such a system. Nothing ever came of this although I don't recall significant objection.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

We had some of these at one time and TfD'd them. I am very much opposed to creating these templates - it's clutter for WP:NFL in my opinion and I'd hate to see us go down that path. Rikster2 (talk) 17:38, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I think I'm the one who TfD'd them actually (can't remember)...just because other sports have them doesn't mean we should. FWIW I think the NFL, Baseball etc. projects are wrong in using them. It's navbox creep. A category such as Philadelphia 76ers draft picks is the further we need to go with respect to a player's draft status. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Infobox and NPOV issues with article

Bulls–Pistons rivalry has some issues, but I don't know much about the subject, so I figured I'd post a link here so a more knowledgeable editor can take up the project. The infobox is showing placeholder syntax, and the article's tone is newspaper-feature-style instead of encyclopedia-style. Dreamyshade (talk) 02:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Missing 2013–14 team articles

If someone is so inclined, 2013–14 Washington Wizards season, 2013–14 Houston Rockets season, and 2013–14 Memphis Grizzlies season still need to be created.—Bagumba (talk) 04:25, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

College Basketball Team Navigation Templates

Please join the discussion at the College Basketball Wikiproject for forming a consensus on the creation of a basic navigation template for college basketball teams. CrazyPaco (talk) 09:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

2013 NBA All-Star Game

Would somebody be able to put up a boxscore for the 2013 NBA All-Star Game? It would be interesting to have for readers who would want to look back and see it.

Robert (talk) 03:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Please participate in discussion concerning Cavs GM Chris Grant

There is a discussion at Talk:Chris Grant (basketball)#Criticism for draft decisions concerning inclusion of a statement about how his draft choices have been received (and further citation of this, if included). Given that this is a BLP, I'd like to see some additional opinions on the matter. Thanks. Rikster2 (talk) 02:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

NFL/NBA

how come NFL players have things like franchise record in a game and NFL top 100 players in their accomplishments? NBA do not have those things they only have the actual rewards they have like mvp and roy which is the way it should be. i think it's sloppy and should be removed from nfl players accomplishments category — Preceding unsigned comment added by T23tran (talk • contribs) 15:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You're in the wrong place then mate. If you want that stuff removed from NFL articles, you should go to WP:NFL. DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Template:2013–14 NBA season by team

{{2013–14 NBA season by team}} still needs two teams (2013–14 Houston Rockets season and 2013–14 Memphis Grizzlies season).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:24, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

NBA.com player links changed (again)

FYI

See Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography#Historical_profiles_have_moved—Bagumba (talk) 14:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

We should consider using basketball-reference as the sole standard. Rikster2 (talk) 14:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

An NBA player not having a link to NBA.com seems a big omission, unlike leaving out yahoo, espn, etc. Also, they have the advanced analytics now too.—Bagumba (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you're probably right. I just get annoyed by the constant format conversions. I'm not going to spend any time converting these frankly. Rikster2 (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

If the changes can't be isolated to within the template code, I wouldnt recommend spending time on this either. The template was supposed to hide minor URL changes, but this is pretty major.—Bagumba (talk) 00:31, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders

The List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders needs to be remade basically from scratch, as approximately half of it is factually incorrect. The official criteria for the National Basketball Association season minutes leaders has always been minutes total, not minutes per game average. You can see this in any NBA Guide, such as the most recent edition: http://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/2013-nba-guide.pdf Hoops gza (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Appears that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders was opened.—Bagumba (talk) 21:11, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Alleged child of Jerry Buss

Could you some extra eyes on Jerry Buss. An editor has been trying to add an alleged child of Buss to his actual count of children. This claim came from a palimony suit that was settled but terms were not disclosed. The name of the alleged child also seems inappropriate to mention due to WP:BLPNAME; it has rarely been mentioned, and only in the context of the lawsuit. An IP then immediately re-added the same information.—Bagumba (talk) 03:05, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Use of Category:African-American basketball coaches and Category:African-American basketball players

Moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball/Archive 4 § Use of Category:African-American basketball coaches and Category:African-American basketball players

Are we still restricting use of Category:African-American basketball coaches and Category:African-American basketball players to players with explicit cited content in their articles verifying this?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

J. J. Hickson requested page name move

There is a proposal at Talk:J. J. Hickson#Requested move to change J. J. Hickson to JJ Hickson. Please go there and contribute to the discussion to help it reach resolution one way or the other. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 18:07, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox basketball biography needs update to historical profiles link

See talk topic at the template talk page. Arbor to SJ (talk) 01:52, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Jerry Lucas

I just reverted an editor who was adding a bunch of inappropriate, unsourced tone to this article and well.... even after reverting this still needs a massive start over. The article is horrendous for such a key figure, and a core topic for this Wikiproject. If you guys can volunteer your time to this article it would be highly appreciated. Thanks Secret ^account 04:03, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Teams listed in biography infobox

FYI

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#Teams_listed_in_biography_infobox to determine how teams that a player never played a game for should be handled.—Bagumba (talk) 22:58, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

National origin categories

A recent edit at Robert Sacre added the US-born but Canadian-raised Sacre to Category:National Basketball Association players from Canada. I'm not that active with categories, but spurred by the ambiguity with the above undrafted player category discussion, it's always been ambiguous for me with any of these "from anywhere" categories if the inclusion criteria is merely having lived somewhere, born there, or grew up there. Someone can pursue this if they are interested.—Bagumba (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I think these are overcategorization frankly. I think sticking with "French basketball players" and the like is fine. You get to a fuzzy line between place of birth vs. nationality otherwise (like the Sacre example). Rikster2 (talk) 21:12, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah we only use "French ice hockey players" for hockey, however we make it clear its means people from that country or who played for the national team. From of course meaning you were born there cause you can only be from one place. But you can have lived in others. However, as you say its treated all over the wiki ambiguously. -DJSasso (talk) 13:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Display of Retired Numbers in infoboxes

I'd like to come to some sort of consensus on how these appear so that it is consistent. We have had a lot of cases where users/IPs are tweaking the format for some players but not others, sometimes violating MOS. One issue User:Bagumba brought to my attention is the MOS actually discourages the use of the pound sign ("#") to denote number and we should use the abbreviation "No." instead. As for the rest, is it "No. 12 retired by the Milwaukee Bucks," "Milwaukee Bucks retired no. 12," "No. 12 retired, Milwaukee Bucks" or something else? Not sure the format chosen is that important, but there ought to be consistency. The other question is what is actually linked - should it be [[Milwaukee Bucks#Retired numbers|retired by the Milwaukee Bucks]], retired by the [[Milwaukee Bucks#Retired numbers|Milwaukee Bucks]], should the whole thing (including the actual number) be wikilinked, or what? Thanks for the input. Rikster2 (talk) 14:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The other question is if there is any need to be consistent with baseball, which uses "Kansas City Royals #8 retired" (see George Brett). Rikster2 (talk) 14:38, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not a drastic difference to have conformity. I'd rather pick a format that makes sense; other projects may fall in line after if it's intuitive, but it's not like baseball format is incoherent to warrant the effort for baseball project to conform with what is chosen for NBA.—Bagumba (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Right, WP:POUND discourages # since it doesn't mean "number" to all English speakers. Of late, I've been using the format "No. <number> [[<link to team retired number article|retired by <team>]]" e.g. Marques Johnson has "No. 54 retired by UCLA." Per WP:EGG, it seems the link should be on the "retired by <team>" text, as the link is about all the numbers retired by the team. Linking the entire "No. <number> retired by <team>" gives the impression it's a link to a dedicated article about the specific number, whereas just linking "team" makes it look like a basic link to the team like UCLA, not a link to the retired numbers for the team. Honestly, unless people are inclined to change all of these for NBA project, people will just follow some (inconsistent) format from a random article they found That being said, its unlikeIy I will dedicate time to it, unless I happen to be editing a page with a retired number on it.—Bagumba (talk) 21:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders

Could people comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of National Basketball Association season minutes leaders, which has been relisted.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Height in m vs cm

FYI

You are invited to join the discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography#Height_parameter to reach a consensus on the displaying of player heights in m vs. cm.—Bagumba (talk) 16:54, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

"Undrafted National Basketball Association players" category

This is an old question, but what is the criteria for this to be applied? It seems like if a player never played in the true NBA (just under the BAA or ABA banners, for example), this shouldn't be applied. The only exception I might see is BAA players, but it seems like they should have to have been eligible to be drafted. The category today is being applied in some cases where a player's college career ended before a draft existed. To me, that isn't the spirit of why the category was created and this category should not be applied in these cases. Thoughts? Wherever we land we should update the language on the category (BAA/NBA are the listed leagues). Rikster2 (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be applied only to players who signed up for the draft? I realize almost all players get to the league via the draft nowadays, but was that the case in the early days? If they got to the league without going through the draft, or the going to the draft wasn't possible for them, they should be omitted here. –HTD 16:43, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

The description at Category:Undrafted National Basketball Association players is basically players in the NBA that were never drafted.—Bagumba (talk) 16:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the question is should it be? I think the category is interesting as it shows people who were overlooked through the draft process. When you start to throw in players like Virgil Vaughn, who was long out of college and close to 30 when the first BAA draft was held. it seems like that is a stretch. Rikster2 (talk) 17:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a violation of WP:NOTDEFINING to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you men the category as a whole? I wouldn't agree with that. Players who make the NBA without being drafted are relatively rare and it is fairly noteworthy. Top current or all-time undrafted players are also the topic of sports lists pretty frequently (see example here and here). Rikster2 (talk) 18:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I mean the category as a whole. It doesn't appear to be that rare, as there are almost 600 pages in the category. Their defining characteristic is that they played in the NBA, not how they got there. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

A person has more than one defining characteristic. How they got there - and NBA Draft lore - is something that people pay attention to. There are numerous sites that cover the NBA draft specifically, and that's all they cover. It is very different from baseball in that regard. If you wanted to AfD the category so the discussion happens, you can do that (though I would assume the logic is the same for the NFL and NHL categories, so you should AfD them as a group if you choose to do it). Rikster2 (talk) 18:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm considering it. Yes, there are multiple defining characteristics for an individual, but I don't think draft status is one of them. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it is fine for you to AfD if you so choose. I would just ask that you consider the different role that the draft plays in basketball vs. baseball (which seems to be your primary sport). You guys don't even have draft pick categories (such as "Atlanta Hawks draft picks"), which are pretty important in basketball. Baseball and basketball are not the same. Rikster2 (talk) 21:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

With all the confusion on what DEFINING really means at Wikipedia talk:Overcategorization, I'm of the opinion it's sort of a WP:BUREAUCRACY to call it a guideline when the definition is so esoteric and generally not followed. The average editor will add a category to a page if it passes the "is a" test, e.g. player X is an undrafted player. Although it doesn't already exist, List of undrafted NBA players could be created and easily be notable enough to pass WP:LISTN.—Bagumba (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

@Rikster2 Are players who began in the 1946–47 BAA season the only exception? It'd be better to list the specific known exceptions to make the category description more user friendly.—Bagumba (talk) 05:58, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. I haven't done a ton of research on th etopic. Rikster2 (talk) 21:18, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I would think the only players that should be in that category are those that made the NBA without being drafted after the draft was created. In the NHL at least can't speak for the NFL, it is pretty rare that a player makes it undrafted and it is almost always talked about in the media when they are talking about the player.-DJSasso (talk) 18:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I would say the NBA is the same in how it is treated. The three categories were nominated for deletion a few years back (discussion here) and kept. They could be put up again. For the record, I think the category should be kept, but I think it is fair game to have the discussion if someone disagrees. Rikster2 (talk) 18:51, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for coming really late to the discussion, but as a former avid fans of this "undrafted" categories, I feel the need to share some of my opinions here. I've been toying with the idea of creating List of undrafted NBA players for since two years ago and I have some useful stuff in my sandbox if anyone wants to create it. The Undrafted players by year section from my sandbox is complete and up to date for any undrafted players joining the NBA since the 1950–51 season. Anyway, from there you can see that in the early days (when the draft is more than 2 rounds), the amount of undrafted players is really low. However, since the league reduce the draft into two rounds in the 1980s, the number of undrafted players increased significantly. There are about 15 to 25 undrafted players entering the league in recent seasons. Comparing that numbers to the number of players drafted each season (60), I believe undrafted players are not that rare anymore, although only few of them have long and distinguished career. Of 438 players on active roster as of today, 58 of them (13%) are undrafted players. The of 10-day contracts, unguaranteed contracts, and the D-League call-ups and assignment all contributed to the increasing number of undrafted players coming into the league. I think it's really difficult to determine whether we need to add more exceptions to exclude players who played in the league before the draft was established in 1947. Basically every players who played in the inaugural 1946–47 BAA season are undrafted players. Moreover, in the 1949–50 season, the season after the BAA absorbed the NBL and was renamed NBA, there are a lot of former NBL players who became an NBA player but did not go through the NBA/BAA draft process. I'm leaning towards keeping the category unchanged and create the List of undrafted NBA players article that clearly states the criterias/exceptions and the reason for those criterias and exceptions. — MT (talk) 05:19, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Minnesota Timberwolves head coaches/archive1

If anyone has extra time on their hands, please feel free to review or support my featured list nomination. The nomination has not received enough reviews and support to pass. Thanks in advance! --K.Annoyomous (talk) 03:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Someone, please! I'm begging for some support from my fellow WP:NBA members here! The nomination has been open for a month and a half and I've only received one reviewer. Any comments or support would be appreciated! --K.Annoyomous (talk) 14:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Player positions (again)

Remember when few sources had details like SF/PF and SG/PG, and we considered listing generic Guard or Forward for players? Well, not only has basketball-reference.com added more detail, it seems to be going overboard. They now list Magic Johnson as a Shooting guard too, even though AFAIK it was only his rookie season when he shared point guard duties with Norm Nixon. Other editors seem to be adding these "extra" positions for other players as well, which I have no inclination to spend time contesting.—Bagumba (talk) 04:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't contest it unless it gets crazy (eg - Magic as a center because he filled in for Kareem one playoff game). I have seen certain editors add 5, 6, 7 positions (including both "forward" and "small forward" for example) and to me that is crazy. Rikster2 (talk) 12:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Key/lane markings

I noticed the inner markings of the key/lane (I call them the "NCAA lane markings") were gone. Has there been any publicized rule changed on this? –HTD 17:15, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Apparently these were removed in the 2012-13 season. Compare these:

• 
  2011-12 Heat vs Pacers
• 
  2012-13 Bucks vs Lakers

Can someone look for the press release when they removed it? –HTD 05:59, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Ray McCallum, Jr. or is it Ray McCallum?

An IP keeps insisting that Ray McCallum, Jr. is in fact NOT a "Jr." I did a Google search and there are a number of articles that refer to him as "Ray McCallum, Jr." but most of the pertinent basketball sites don't include Jr. What is the deal here? Jrcla2 (talk) 15:54, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

You are correct. See here. It says "Ray McCallum Jr. is the son of Ray Sr., head coach at University of Detroit Mercy". DaHuzyBru (talk) 15:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

But that's just one source. I want to be sure it's definitely "Jr." before insisting to the IP that it actually is. What does his NBA page have? Jrcla2 (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Just saying, if his father is Ray McCallum (supposedly Ray McCallum Sr.), then he would have to be Ray McCallum Jr. I'm not sure what the IP's deal is. It seems to be that SB Nation lists him as "Jr"[1] [2] but most other sources don't ie NBA.com, ESPN. This states Ray McCallum Sr. DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:13, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Basically, until the IP can prove with reliable sources that he is not a Jr., it will stay. Thanks for the help. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

No worries! DaHuzyBru (talk) 16:35, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

For WP:V, Jr. should be cited inline. If sources don't normally refer to him with Jr., the Jr. can stay in the opening sentence but the article could be renamed per WP:COMMONNAME.—Bagumba (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Ray McCallum (the younger one) is Ray Michael McCallum, his fathers name is Howard Raymond McCallum, Jr. ... So every source that called the younger Ray a Jr. was actually using his fathers name ... They don't have the same first or middle name but both go by Ray ... Media people just assumed since they go by the same name that one must be a Jr. and the other a Sr., but couldn't be farther from the truth ... All of the REAL information sites have them both listed as Ray McCallum including the NBA and Detroit Titans website www.detroittitans.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.109.29.72 (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, a source for this extraordinary claim? Nothing supports what you say. Ray Sr is listed in sources such as this. A source for "Howard Raymond McCallum, Jr." would be great as I can't find anything to support that. This also states Ray Jr for the younger one. You keep making changes without reasoning or sources, hence people reverting your edits. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:32, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

4- and 5-point plays

Do technical fouls and flagrant fouls count toward the official 4- and 5-point play totals? Is it possible to get a flagrant on a made shot? Not to take anything away from Jamal Crawford (who holds the record for career 4-point plays), but I have to think that Kobe, Lebron, and Michael (and most great scorers) have had a lot of plays where people have gotten technicals for arguing foul calls or gotten flagrants despite made shots (not sure about the latter). I am thinking that Crawford may only hold the record for three point shots made and ones, which is, of course, still an intriguing record.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Also if technicals should or do already count, how is the record affected for split credit. I imagine Karl Malone drew a lot of fouls that elicited technicals. He may have gotten the 3-point play, but John Stockton might have shot some of the technicals. Just wondering.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

One can argue that flagrant fouls get in but I don't think so with most technical fouls as they're already separate "plays" (arguing an already called foul) when it's called. –HTD 19:03, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

1965 NBA Finals and 1966 NBA Finals

These NBA Finals have no Hall of Fame spot in the infobox. Can somebody put these there? Robert4565 (talk) 05:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Just cut and paste the field from another article. Rikster2 (talk) 15:01, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Francisco Garcia

This has been a topic previously, but Francisco García's date of birth is still an issue. There are many conflicting reports of either 1980 or 1981. Sources such as NBA.com and Basketball-Reference state 1981, whereas ESPN and CBS Sports state 1980. 1981 sources: [3] [4] [5] [6]. 1980 sources: [7] [8] [9]. What should become of this? Personally, I think perhaps use NBA.com as the main source as that is where the height/weight etc comes from. DaHuzyBru (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

In such discrepancies I think it's best to cite the NBA.com date of birth in the lead (but with a footnote), and have that footnotes section say how there are conflicting reports. Provide the alternative date of birth in the footnotes section, w/refs. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:52, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I did just that. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 14:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Has Garcia every played in under-x FIBA event? That could answer the question. –HTD 23:31, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

FIBA has Garcia born in 1980 [10]. –HTD 00:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Steve Novak listed a year with "circa" and a footnote explanation. When there are conflicting sources and one date isn't reported more than others, who's to know which one is the right one? At any rate, some footnote is useful however the date is listed.—Bagumba (talk) 01:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

NBA All-star game infoboxs

Some NBA All-star games don't have an infobox. Would this be something that, if added, would be worth having on articles that don't have any infoboxs? what do you guys think?

Robert4565 (talk) 00:45, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Go for it. Usually won't get any resistance to adding infoboxes that are already in similar articles.—Bagumba (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Bagumba, I'll go for it Robert4565 (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

1979 NBA Finals

Referees for 1979 NBA Finals are not listed. Can someone find realiable sources to list them? Robert4565 (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

• I have added the refs, courtesy of the 1979-80 Official NBA Guide.Hoops gza (talk) 00:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Highlights in infobox in NBA bios

FYI

I've made an attempt at consolidating all the discussions and conventions I see in NBA bios about highlights listed in the infobox at Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights. Feel free to edit or discuss there.—Bagumba (talk) 08:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

There's also a link to the doc at WP:NBA under "Navigation" on the right at the "Article guidelines" link.—Bagumba (talk) 09:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

NBA Rookie of the Month

Did Adam Silver do away with the NBA Rookie of the Month award. It is the 5th and I can't find January yet.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:20, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

These have now been released and added.Hoops gza (talk) 04:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Dirk Nowitzki

I feel like he has too much in his infobox. I request we remove his 'Sports Illustrated all-decade team' as that is not a real award at all. It's just a made up list that the magazine made and plus, none of the other players on that list have it under their infoboxes. Can we make this happen? Also, How do you guys feel about his other awards that he has received in Germany/Europe?(T23tran (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC))

My instinct says remove it. I would want to see multiple sources refer to the award to satisfy WP:DUEWEIGHT.—Bagumba (talk) 20:29, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, SI All-Decade doesn't need to be there. But I am also not a proponent of including things like "50-40-90 club" or even being a franchise scoring leader. On the European front, I would be strongly against not including awards based solely on them not being NBA awards (similar to how I feel about people removing significant college awards). That said, it would be interesting to look at which European awards are truly significant - not sure they all are. But being all league or MVP of a European League is significant for sure - more so than many NBA designations that make the cut IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 21:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Great, I went ahead and removed the 'Sports Illustrated all-decade team'. I did this before but it keeps getting added back so I would ask someone to please refer the user to this topic page. Now, about the European awards I would be fine keeping any MVPs or player of the years but the 'German sports personality of the year' is not a real award to me. I would also be fine with removing the 50-40-90 club. I feel that can go in their bios rather than infoboxes.(T23tran (talk) 21:20, 5 February 2014 (UTC))

It would have been helpful if you explained your removal and linking to here... Kante4 (talk) 21:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I am still rather new to this editing thing.(T23tran (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC))

I'm not keen on 50-40-90 either in the infobox,—Bagumba (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Rikster2. I was only intending to comment on the SI team. For European awards, WP:BASKETBALL might have additional insight as this project is more NBA-focused. They should not be automatically removed just because they have NBA honors.—Bagumba (talk) 21:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Franchise leading scorer revisited

There was a weak consensus before at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_20#Team_all-time_leading_scorer to not have entries for franchise career scoring leaders in infoboxes. This was pretty much the case in articles (I think?) until recent edits. Most leaders already have enough tangible awards, and having a retired number is a more notable team honor. As a data point for less accomplished players, I looked at the Clippers' leader, Randy Smith (basketball). His obituary in The New York Times didn't make any mention of this achievement. I'm still inclined to limit clutter and not include this.—Bagumba (talk) 01:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Removal of college conference POY and first team All-Conference needs to stop. These are significant college awards. Rikster2 (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Conference POY is signif, and consensus has been to have it. All-Conference usually only gets cutoff when a player has 5+ pro highlights. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Article_guidelines#Infobox_highlights.—Bagumba (talk) 01:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough, though I'd point out that guys who are 3-4 time first team all conference picks it is fairly rare/unusual. The bias seems to be anything NBA-related is significant while other stuff isn't - that's BS. The creep on NBA honors lately has been ridiculous. Rikster2 (talk) 01:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

We're not a WP:BUREAUCRACY so people should make exceptions when it makes sense. The guideline is just so people know what we usually, not always, follow. Problem is when we make exceptions, some might think it is "missing" in other articles and add it as a general rule. Not sure how to avoid that.—Bagumba (talk) 02:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

While we are welcome to claim that Wikipedia is not a bureacracy, the reams of MOS guidelines and the 100s of users who spend 100% of their editing time on MOS and enforcement of MOS say different. Wikipedia has no idea what it is, which is clear when you compare the stated guidelines you linked with actual practice. The whole "NBA draft" vs. "NBA Draft" thing was absolutely bureaucratic. Rikster2 (talk) 12:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, the goal is to not be a bureaucracy, but that is not always going to be the case. Are you saying we should do away with the NBA project article guideline document, or are you just venting?—Bagumba (talk) 19:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Mostly venting. Rikster2 (talk) 19:32, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree that statistical achievements are less important and notable than awards and honors, at least insomuch as inclusion in the infobox. Bear in mind though that there are only 30 players total that could have this particular achievement included.Hoops gza (talk) 04:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I would just add 3 thoughts - 1) 5 is too low a number to start deleting valid highlights. If we are OK with LeBron James having 15-18 highlights in his infobox, why would we delete college NPOY from Elton Brand's because he has 5 pro highlights? 2) IMO, there are some awards that should ALWAYS be there, no matter how many other highlights are in the infobox - for college, this would be NPOY and Consensus All-American (I actually think others qualify, like conference POY, NABC DPOY, etc, but can give on some of these if needed. 3) I re-added college conference player of the year honors to guys like Ralph Sampson, Tyler Hansbrough and Christian Laettner. All of these guys are MUCH more notable college players than pro players and frankly the infobox should reflect this. It gets dicier when you talk about Oscar Robertson, Kareem, etc who are considered all-time greats in both college and pro basketball. Rikster2 (talk) 12:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This is certainly a case-by-case basis issue. 10 is way too low. I don't try to prune until the count goes beyond 10–12. Very recent edits to Anthony Davis (basketball) initially cut back to 7 but seem to have settled at 9 (leaving room for NBADPOY, which I expect). I don't like franchise leading scorer, but it is probably a step up from something like Duke scoring record. At early stages, I support a lot of college school records, so it is hard for me to speak out against franchise scoring record. In some cases, I have included NBADL franchise records. Until a few days ago Manny Harris held the single-game scoring records for two different NBADL franchises and these were in his infobox. I would expect that most people who hold NBA franchise scoring records have 10 or so better infobox highlights, but I am willing to use case-by-case judgement.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no maximum of 10 that I know of. We've only advised being more selective w/ college and HS honors once a player has 5+ pro highlights. Even with that, the big-time players will reach close to 20.—Bagumba (talk) 19:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

@Rikster: We should never delete NPOY from infoboxes. The past consensus was just to consolidate them to one general entry when the listings get large instead of listing each agency. AFAIK, discussions have always said awards at Template:Men's college basketball award navbox could be listed without exception, which I think addresses the awards you mentioned.—Bagumba (talk) 19:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Playoff statistical leaders in infobox

I would also like to tee up removing playoff statistical leaders. No one EVER talks about this stuff and right now significant college awards are being removed in favor of these. Rikster2 (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this is the same case that these players already have a lot of tangible awards, and I would support drawing the line and saying playoff stats leaders don't cut it. Generally not a significant part of their legacy.—Bagumba (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The lists that we have for these stats should suffice.Hoops gza (talk) 04:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree. Only actual awards should be in in there. (T23tran (talk) 21:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC))

Season stats leader in infobox

What stats do people feel should be in the infobox if a played led the lead in a stat for a season. Pts, rebs, and assists seem reasonable. Some articles also have steals and blocks, which I am neutral on. Personally, I think anything beyond that is not really that notable, and starts becoming excessive, like Lebron leading in minutes.—Bagumba (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I like pts, rebs, assists, stls, and blks. Everything else, like percentge leaders and minutes leader, is insignificant in my opinion.(T23tran (talk) 15:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC))

I wouldn't add that. I think the infobox has a bit to much in it already and to start adding season leaders would make the situation worse. -DJSasso (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree, except that most articles already have pts/reb/assist. At this point, I'm not tring to stop the practice, only looking to contain it.—Bagumba (talk) 15:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Mo Cheeks or Maurice Cheeks

Resolved

 – Page was moved.

Please see and comment on this request to move Mo Cheeks to Maurice Cheeks. — MT (talk) 15:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

See also at Michael Jordan

I just added List of National Basketball Association career minutes played leaders to the see also section of 49 articles. Michael Jordan is the only article where the see also section does not include a list of these types of links. Why is that?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Jordan is an FA, and a better organized article usually incorporates links into the body when possible instead of leaving it in a see also. The article has an honors section, which is where stats leaders are placed.—Bagumba (talk) 16:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Season stats leader in infobox

What stats do people feel should be in the infobox if a played led the lead in a stat for a season. Pts, rebs, and assists seem reasonable. Some articles also have steals and blocks, which I am neutral on. Personally, I think anything beyond that is not really that notable, and starts becoming excessive, like Lebron leading in minutes.—Bagumba (talk) 04:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I like pts, rebs, assists, stls, and blks. Everything else, like percentge leaders and minutes leader, is insignificant in my opinion.(T23tran (talk) 15:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC))

I wouldn't add that. I think the infobox has a bit to much in it already and to start adding season leaders would make the situation worse. -DJSasso (talk) 15:35, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree, except that most articles already have pts/reb/assist. At this point, I'm not tring to stop the practice, only looking to contain it.—Bagumba (talk) 15:49, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Mo Cheeks or Maurice Cheeks

Resolved

 – Page was moved.

Please see and comment on this request to move Mo Cheeks to Maurice Cheeks. — MT (talk) 15:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

See also at Michael Jordan

I just added List of National Basketball Association career minutes played leaders to the see also section of 49 articles. Michael Jordan is the only article where the see also section does not include a list of these types of links. Why is that?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Jordan is an FA, and a better organized article usually incorporates links into the body when possible instead of leaving it in a see also. The article has an honors section, which is where stats leaders are placed.—Bagumba (talk) 16:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Satnam Singh Bhamara

Regarding the 52nd pick of today's draft, Satnam Singh Bhamara, is he classified as an "international" player, or a postgraduate student, or is he a high school senior? NBA official release of early entrants listed him as a postgraduate student, however at the age of 19, I seriously doubt that he already finished college/undergraduate degree in either India or USA. I also don't think he is an "international" player, considering that he was enrolled in IMG Academy and resides in the USA for the last 3 years before the draft. I also don't think he can be classified as high school senior, since no high school senior can enter the draft until 1 year after his high school graduation. An article from SI mentions that he moved to USA in 2010, spend 4 years somewhere (could be in IMG), before playing for IMG Academy postgraduate team in 2014–15. Right now I have changed the class to postgraduate according to official NBA list, but I'm not sure whether it's accurate. — MT (talk) 08:56, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't link to the article postgraduate education; that focuses on a different definition of the term. (I think; I only read the lead.) But many prep schools in the US have what they call "postgrad" programs - basically, an extra year of high school. I'm not sure if there's a Wikipedia article that really discusses that concept, but here's a New York Times article: [11]. Zagalejo^^^ 17:14, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

So it's basically a postgraduate high school class. That's make sense with all the information that he failed to get NCAA scholarship. This means that he finished high school before the 2014–15 season and became an early entrant because he has at least 1 year removed from his high school graduation at IMG Academy. I'll try to piece some information and add notes to the article later. Thanks! — MT (talk) 23:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest (if such a copyvio is present). --Lucas559 (talk) 15:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

2016 NBA Draft Page

I wanted to be proactive and created a 2016 NBA Draft Page. I started filling out information, particularly with pre-draft trade information. It has already been flagged since I am a relatively new contributor. I am requesting that some of you more seasoned contributors please contribute additional edits, and remove the flag. Also, as a relatively new user, any constructive comments and advise to me would be much appreciated. Thank you all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VeraBaby (talk • contribs) 10:39, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

There's always the risk of articles like this being deleted for not having enough info in it to meet WP:GNG at the time of creation. Obviously, the article will be notable at some point, if not already.—Bagumba (talk) 17:44, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Summer league in player infobox

Unconfirmed editors have been adding summer league info into Seth Curry's infobox. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming there is consensus to not include summer league roster info in a player's infobox. Relevant past discussions include Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_19#NBA_infobox_for_NBA_summer_league.3F and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_National_Basketball_Association/Archive_22#Remind_me_again_what_we_do_with_Summer_League_signings.3F.—Bagumba (talk) 17:03, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there absolutely is consensus NOT to include this (as well as exclusion of SL awards like SL MVP, which has had extensive discussion in its own right). Also relevant would be the discussion about Andrew Bynum where we got consensus not to include teams where a player hasn't played a regular-season game for a franchise. Another related consensus that has been a battleground is not including unsigned draft picks' teams in infoboxes. In what universe would we have D'Angelo Russell not show as a member of the Lakers but undrafted summer leaguer Robert Upshaw would? Rikster2 (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2015 (UTC)