Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)

RfC: Should the guideline explicitly accept Elizabeth II, Carl XVI Gustaf, etc titles?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of the discussion is consensus in support of the proposal to update the guideline to explicitly endorse the use of shorter titles where no disambiguation is needed.

Discussion focused around article title WP:CRITERIA and current practices.

• Recognizability was brought up as an argument against the proposal. This was rebutted, editors point out that titles should be recognizable specifically to someone familiar with the subject.

• Precision was discussed as an argument against the proposal, but this was also rebutted, as it specifically suggests the lack of a need for disambiguation (natural or otherwise) when there is primary topic or no ambiguity.

• Consistency was brought up as an argument against the proposal but this idea was mostly rebutted. It was pointed out that disambiguation (including natural disambiguation) is explicitly not an area where consistency is generally applied, and examples including heads of state were brought up as a comparative example. Ultimately this was the strongest argument in favor, as one editor pointed out (in the Statement by AndrewPeterT below) that WP:TITLE allows for topic-specific naming conventions. However, overall it is still not a strong argument in favor, both because of the aforementioned rebuttals and also since it's so tightly coupled to the proposal so as to nearly be begging the question.

• As pointed out by editors, concision is a clear argument in favor of the proposal, and no effective rebuttal based on WP:CRITERIA or other policy was provided.

• Finally, editors pointed out that the proposal reflects current practice, which suggests an very strong consensus the other way would be needed to reject the proposal.

Based on the strength of argument from existing policy, and existing practices amongst editors, as well as the preponderance of opinions, there is a strong consensus to adopt the proposal.

I will point out that based on points raised in this discussion, the proposal is very much in line with existing policy, namely WP:CRITERIA. My own opinion is that it may benefit editors to have this guideline updated to better reflect that policy, rather than be laid out as "exceptions to exceptions" to that policy. It could be an opportunity to simplify the guideline. However that note is explicitly not an outcome of the discussion and just my own interpretation of the state of the guideline with respect to the discussion. (non-admin closure) —siroχo 09:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

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For over a decade now the titles of articles about British monarchs have been at Elizabeth II, George VI, Edward VIII, etc. Likewise it has been 13 years since Maria Theresa of Austria was moved to Maria Theresa (discussion) and Louis-Philippe I of France to Louis-Philippe I (discussion), longer still since Napoleon I of France was abandoned for Napoleon. Three years ago the country qualifiers were dropped for titles such as Juan Carlos I and others (discussion), Carl XVI Gustaf and others (discussion), Elizabeth I (discussion) and others, Louis XIV and others (discussion), etc.

This year multiple attempts to move articles back to the Name Number of Country format failed: Alfonso XIII to Alfonso XIII of Spain and similar (discussion), Napoleon III to Napoleon III of France and similar (discussion), Elizabeth II to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom and similar (discussion)

Should a point be added to WP:SOVEREIGNS to reflect these changes and explicitly endorse the use of shorter titles where no disambiguation is needed? Surtsicna (talk) Surtsicna (talk) 07:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Query. Just to be clear: is the proposal to set out a list of articles where this exception applies or is it a statement added explicitly accepting that exceptions can be agreed locally at each article (without listing the articles). The former would be quite unusual, I think. DeCausa (talk) 08:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa: it is an open proposal, where hopefully we can hammer out the best course of action in a joint effort. I am not fond of the former option you listed; it does not help make the guideline relevant again. See my comment below for my idea on how to approach this. Surtsicna (talk)

DeCausa: I have now included an explicit proposal of action in the opening for clarity and simplicity. I still invite everyone to share alternative ideas. Surtsicna (talk) 09:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, I believe the guideline should be updated to reflect the present (and long-standing) reality. As it stands now, NCROY is out of touch and consequently largely irrelevant. The change could be as simple as listing some of the examples under point 2 of the Sovereigns section; alternatively (and preferably), we could add a new point explicitly endorsing the disambiguation-less format for subjects with unambiguous or primary-usage names. Surtsicna (talk) 08:23, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Query I was bought here by a notification at an article I watch. Please be more specific about which part of WP:NCROY is under review and the specific text that might be changed. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

  WP:SOVEREIGN; the question is whether the guideline should be modified to take into account the apparent preference for shortening the biography titles over the past decade. What specific text could/should be changed is open for discussion; see my idea above. Surtsicna (talk)

Cinderella157: I have now included an explicit proposal of action in the opening for clarity and simplicity. I still invite everyone to share alternative ideas. Surtsicna (talk) 09:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Yes but where there needs to be distinguishing, then you could use the longer terms unless there is a clear WP:PRIMARY case for leaving it alone (like Charles III). The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 09:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The C of E: I have now included an explicit proposal of action in the opening for clarity and simplicity. I still invite everyone to share alternative ideas. Surtsicna (talk) 09:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Already the guideline says "If there is an overwhelmingly common name, use it: William the Conqueror, John Balliol, Peter the Great, Henry the Fowler, Mary, Queen of Scots, Gustavus Adolphus, Eric of Pomerania, Charlemagne. This is in line with WP:COMMONNAME." So, maybe all that's needed is to expand on the treatment of British monarchs in this way, such as Queen Victoria. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Andrew Davidson: I have now included an explicit proposal of action in the opening for clarity and simplicity. I still invite everyone to share alternative ideas. Surtsicna (talk) 09:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, omit the country name in general, with two exceptions that I can think of. The first, already mentioned above, would be where the use of the country name or the like would be necessary for disambiguation, e.g., with all the various ones named Charles IV. The second would be where someone is overwhelmingly known by such a name, and such would therefore clearly constitute the common name. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 09:57, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, but per Seraphimblade's suggestion. The addition of the country is often clunky and unnecessary. It should be added "when neccessary" (per Seraphimblade) rather than the default with permitted exceptions. DeCausa (talk) 10:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes Project naming conventions should provide context specific guidance but remain consistent with the superior WP:P&G (WP:AT). Disambiguation is only required when there is an actual conflict in titles. Concision is preferred over unnecessary precision. When there is more than one fourth (IV) Henry, we have WP:PRIMARYTARGET. A preferred pattern of disambiguation ("{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}") should only be applied when necessary. The guidance at WP:SOVEREIGN should be amended such that it is in harmony with WP:AT in every respect. By my reading, this is more than just a simple copy-edit but a general review. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. Current guideline language (normally have article titles in the form "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}") is misleading by omission. The community has upheld "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}" across a range of articles, a pattern which cannot be swept under the rug as exceptions. Even something as simple as, "in most cases, they have article titles of the form '{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}'...; in other cases, they have article titles of the form '{First name and ordinal}' (examples: Elizabeth II, Napoleon III)", would be a helpful start. I'm not proposing to bring back the overly rigid-sounding prescriptive language ("if xyz is unambiguous, use xyz") from 2–3 years ago. Rather, the problem is that the guideline should be more accurately descriptive of actual practice. Spending some words on this is not unnecessary creep; it's a significant point that has naturally arisen repeatedly. Adumbrativus (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes. As said above, it’s already the precedent without disambiguation. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:10, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

No. It’s a slippery path to the worse outcome. The expense is poor adherence to CONSISTENCY and RECOGNIZABILITY. The loss of “King”, “Queen”, and “of <country>” hurts RECOGNIZABILITY, and has created frequent conundrums of inconsistency, the worst being that non-regnant queens are given more formality than regnant queens. This path was, is, tempting, because sources tend to use shortforms. However, sources, whether primary cotemporary sources, or modern biographies, are written from a perspective of high familiarity. Unfortunately, the real world sources do not have consistency in referring to royalty, and so this is an unusual case of Wikipedia having to choose a consistent style. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:21, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Talk:Elizabeth II/Archive 48#Requested move 30 July 2023 is an interesting discussion. I haven’t read it thoroughly, but I believe it does make the case that there is a problem, even if the solution was rejected. I don’t know the solution, but I suspect that “of <country>” should be for non anglophone countries. For the Anglophone countries, the country could be assumed to be of the language of this Wikipedia, and the anglophone country name changes too often, over centuries. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:31, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I don’t see why we need “formality” from spelling out everything in the title. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:37, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

We don’t. Is that the slippery slope fallacy you’re applying. If it’s not minimalist, it’s ridiculously long? SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

How is this a slippery slope? I’m simply responding to the worst being that non-regnant queens are given more formality than regnant queens; why is that bad? I don’t understand your third sentence. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

You used the construction “spelling out everything”, which sounds like going to an extreme. Some princesses have many names and titles. It sounded like you equate putting in anything unnecessary means putting everything in the title and making it ridiculously long.

Maybe I misunderstand you. What do you mean by “formality”. For me, formality for title for royalty is something that contributes consistency and connection to reliable source usage.

On non-regnant queens getting more “formality” than regnant queens, I am referring to how a non-regnant queen is more likely to be titled with her title, and worse he childhood title, than is a Queen regnant. For example, I think the comparison of Matilda of Flanders and Empress Matilda is confusing. Which one would you guess was queen of England? Which one would a reader not encultured to Wikipedia guess? SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:54, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

You are not supposed to guess which one was queen of England from the article title. That is what the lead sentence is for. Recognizability means that a reader familiar with the subject would recognize that they arrived at the correct article upon seeing the title. Someone familiar with Matilda of Flanders would know that they are at the right place because that is her common name. Ditto for Olav V, Louis XVI, Edward III, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree you are not supposed to guess.

Someone familiar with Queens of England might be hindered in Matilda being titled by origin not highest notable rank.

I know the purpose of a lead sentence. Can you state the purpose of an article title? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Article titles: Article titles should be recognizable, concise, natural, precise, and consistent, with "recognizable" defined as recognizable to people familiar with the subject. On preciseness it explicitly says Saint Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic. So according to that policy we should just drop the origin unless there is a clear need to disambiguate, which I don't see with Queen Victoria. The other three are way less well-known than the one of the UK. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Extreme cases make bad law. Mother Theresa and King Carl XVI are extreme at the end of extremely notable. I don’t think there is serious disagreement on Mother Theresa or Carl XVI, unless someone argues that there can be only on e suitable article title.

Matilda of Flanders is a more middle of the road example. Obscure to most readers, passingly familiar to many English historians, familiar to very few. Is there a kernel of agreement between us that her article title is non-ideal? Someone bluelinked Matilda, Queen Consort of William I of England. I suggest Matilda, queen consort of William the Conqueror might be the best title, by using the current Wikipedia article title of her husband king. Put into the title text her substantive highest position, in a way that might be suitable for consistency and easy recognisability with all other historical Queen consorts. There are a number of other possibilities, all with pros and cons, but all are non-minimalist. To note one piece of annoying noise, her COMMONNAME probably uses “Maud”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I get what you were saying in the reply right below this one now. However, none of the royal consorts mention that they are a consort in their article title, partly because "you are not supposed to guess". For someone familiar to queen consorts Matilda should also be recognizable. I have no clue on English royal history so would you kindly enlighten me on why COMMONNAME would be Maud? Aaron Liu (talk) 01:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Maud is the diminutive form for Matilda. She seems to have been actually called Maud. It’s like Harry for Henry. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:58, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is not about arbitrary nicknames, it’s about what most modern people known the subject as. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:18, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. I noted that it looked like in her time she was actually called Maud, but you’re right, modern sources overwhelmingly call her Matilda. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, I didn’t mean absolutely everything; I think adding title, position and origin is already “spelling out everything”. Wikipedia prioritizes COMMONNAME way over formality. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Title, position, and origin, agree that would be too much.

Carl XVI is minimal, unambiguous, but it is too little.

Prominent cases should set good example. Minimal titles are unworkable for the general case, the work for unusual names, which tend to be obscure cases.

Queen Victoria is an excellent example. England/Britain/UK/Empress of India can be assumed, for the English Wikipedia.

Queen Victoria of Sweden would be a good future title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

What I do not understand is why Carl XVI Gustaf should need "of Sweden" appended to his name for recognizability if Park Geun-hye, for example, does not need "of South Korea" appended to hers. Surtsicna (talk) 12:54, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

You do not understand why there is a separate guideline for royalty and nobility? Or you don’t understand why a national President is not considered royalty? I don’t think you are being genuine here.

The question you appear to be alluding to is whether the style of titling should indicate royalty.

Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden looks reasonable. I think King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden has a strong line of merit. But why not Kung Carl XVI Gustaf?

President Park Geun-hye of South Korea? I agree, Park Geun-hye of South Korea looks wrong, unlike Carl of Sweden, but both are shorthand, hurting recognisability, and making it really hard to have consistency between well known cases and obscure cases.

I submit that title RECOGNISABILITY and CONSISTENCY are much more valuable to readers than brevity, and have no pretence that there is an easy answer to this persistent problem. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Fairly obviously, Surtsicna isn't raising either of the 2 questions you pose. The question is why should a monarch have a country designation and a non-royal head of state should not? The answer is they shouldn't - unless disambiguation is needed. It's unnecessary otherwise. DeCausa (talk) 13:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Fuzzy — I prefer to add the title first (especially for Queen Victoria as vs. Victoria — what if someone seeks a London train station, a Canadian provincial capital, or an Australian state?); and retaining it for the article title (Queen Elizabeth II) even when relatively unambiguous (as in Elizabeth II).

On the other hand, adding the country name where one rulet is overwhelmingly sought is just clumsy (to non-enthusiasts). When someone outside the Wikiverse seeks King Henry VIII or Tsar Nicholas II she or he normallly wouldn't think to add "of England" or "of Russia". There was a long drawn-out debate before "of the United Kingdom" was dropped from Queen Victoria.

—— Shakescene (talk) 14:16, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

We don't currently add King or Queen except in rare circumstances like Queen Victoria - it's not part of the existing guideline. DeCausa (talk) 14:19, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

For royalty and nobility, titling is a confusing mess. COMMONNAME does not align with cases where there is no COMMONNAME. This is a problem to be solved. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and not just heads of state. If we argue that Carl XVI Gustaf needs "of Sweden" for recognizability while a simple personal name (e.g. Björn Ulvaeus) suffices for all other unambiguously named Swedes (so no Björn Ulvaeus of Sweden or Björn Ulvaeus of ABBA), we come to the absurd yet inevitable conclusion that the king of Sweden is the least recognizable Swede on Wikipedia. Surtsicna (talk) 14:49, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

We're discussing the existing guideline, so that's hardly a reason it itself to stop proposing changes. —— Shakescene (talk) 15:36, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Surtsicna, you appear to be operating under the assumption that a short Wikipedia title implies an important subject, and a long Wikipedia title implies an obscure subject. Is that right? What makes you think readers understand this convention? SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

The simple logic that titles are usually made longer only to disambiguate from more well-known subjects. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

“simple logic” is a term usually indicating a starting point for analysis, not the end point.

It seems to me that an awful lot of backroom Wikipedians, as soon as “disambiguate” is mentioned, abandon consideration of the balancing of the five titling criteria.

Titles should be made longer as required to better fit a balance of the five titling criteria, and the simple logic explanation does not align with the five titling criteria.

- SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:30, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

It's either precise or natural, and precise is the more likely of the two unless there are other reasons you'd like to mention. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:13, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa, there is a real world convention, historically, for royalty to be suffixed “of country”, but not for civilian leaders. That’s a reason to do it. There are reasons to not do it. Why do you say it shouldn’t? What are your working assumptions?

Unless disambiguation is needed it is unnecessary. Those are commonly repeatedly words, but a lot of good things are unnecessary. Is necessity a criterion? What about CONSISTENCY and RECOGNIZABILITY? A few more words in short titles, like Edward VIII could dramatically improve CONSISTENCY and ROCOGNIZABILITY. “of the United Kingdom” is problematic due to the country having several different names over the course of the multiple King Edwards, which means CONSISTENCY is lost, for that suffix. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

There is a real world convention, historically, for royalty to be suffixed “of country”. No there isn't. That's just an unsupported assertion. "George V of the United Kingdom". Nope. What you're missing is the regnal number does all the heavy lifting where there's no need for disambiguation. (Lack of a regnal number may be one of the circumstances where more is needed eg John, King of England.) Otherwise it's just clunky and pointless. DeCausa (talk) 22:30, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Unsupported assertion? Do you read history?

eg “Queen Mary of Scotland and Prince Francis of France”

eg “Mary of Teck”

Are you really denying familiarity with this convention, it’s existence?

Regnal number is another convention, with its own pros and cons.

Clunky, an aesthetic quality, yes, avoid clunky. Carl XVI of Sweden is not clunky.

Pointless? No, “of country”, you may dislike it, is but “pointless” really your claim? SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

That is not just because it's their origin country, it's because it's their house. Teck is not the country (which is Germany), but the house name is the Duke of Teck. An equivalent for King Carl would be "Carl XVI of Bernadotte" which doesn't disambiguate or add to recognizability much. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:RECOGNIZABILITY says the article title should be the name which someone familiar with the subject will recognize. Someone familiar with Louis XIV will recognize the title Louis XIV. Recognizability is not a factor here. Surtsicna (talk) 22:55, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Title policy as written today may not be the font of all wisdom.

Louis XIV is an extraordinarily notable example.

What about King Louis X? There is only one. I am familiar with the Kings of France, and I find King Louis X ambiguous because I don’t know all other Louis X were not king.

I think the prominent examples should align with obscure examples, and minimalism can’t do that. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:11, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

On review, I’d like to alter my “no” to “tentatively only”.

My problems with this guideline is almost entirely with consorts, and I’m not seeing this proposal apply to consorts.

I think with all the examples of shortened Tes to be noted, there was a good COMMONNAME justification. It doesn’t follow that all titles should be shorted where disambiguation is not needed.

explicitly endorse the use of shorter titles where there is a COMMONNAME justification.no disambiguation is needed

SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:20, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

• I think there are two scenarios where no disambiguation might not be needed. In some cases the name is unique and there have been no other monarchs with that name (ex. Louis XVI). In other cases there have been rulers with a similar name but one subject is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (ex. Henry VIII). I think we should definitely cover this matter in some form in NCROY guidelines because the issue has been raised multiple times recently. I'm just not sure how it can be worded. But overall I agree with the nominator's proposal. Keivan.f^Talk 14:56, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• No "explicitly endorse the use of shorter titles" No the shorter title are highlyy problematic, since they do not mention either the country or the person's title. Dimadick (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Name # of country- Is the style I have & continue to support, for all the monarch bios titles. GoodDay (talk) 22:34, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes "a point [should] be added to WP:SOVEREIGNS to ... endorse the use of shorter titles where no disambiguation is needed", since that is the proper kind of titling to use per WP:DAB and WP:CONCISE. This rarely consulted guideline page should not be confusing anyone to the contrary.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:23, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes we should definitely update this naming convention to align with actual practice, which tends (quite rightly) to be much closer to WP:AT. As Cinderella157 points out, this will entail a general review of the guideline, not just a simple copyedit. Rosbif73 (talk) 17:05, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
• Hard no - these titles should not be endorsed. They are abhorrent. They explicitly went against the existing guildeline, and should not be the norm, not be an exception and should not be encouraged. Some article titles have become worryingly western-centric and systematically biased, which is not something I wish to enshrine into a guideline which really needs to be shown a bit more respect, and not stamped on by the ever-irrelevant WP:COMMONNAME. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  And why is the existing guideline better? Titles only have to be recognizable to those in their field, they don't have to be recognizable to everyone. The bias argument only applies when it is prioritized over other similar titles, which the proposed also avoids. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:39, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  The field of kings and queens, nobles and royalty, is extensively familiar, I don’t think restricting the scope of relevant readers works here.

  I think Anglophone bias on en.wiki is ok.

  I think “abhorrent” is extreme exaggeration, but agree that the trend, to case by case minimalism, is not beautiful. Technically, it is to completely abandon consistency as a criterion, it is unbalanced, which is ugly if not quite abhorrent. Consistency in the reader-facing result should not be confused with a simple consistent rule.

  No one need argue that the existing (the old) guideline is better. The old guideline did not work well. The reason, I submit, is that it was based on mixing primary source usage with expert jargon (or “shorthand”).

  I think a changed guideline is needed. Ideas include: different rules for anglophone vs nonanglophone; use of King Queen etc for regnants; use of native language titles for foreign monarchs and nobles; something, I make no claim that the answer is obvious. Perhaps a tertiary work on global royalty and nobility should be studied for style possibilities. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  For current regnants, sure, and these already usually have COMMONNAMEs. For past ones they are likely to be not familiar to non-historians, so I still think no additional dab is better. Probably add country to each one if a past anglophone name conflicts with another one. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

  I honestly do not understand this reasoning. The community has been consistently rejecting the superfluous disambiguation preached by this guideline for over a decade. Do you think that this guideline burying its head in the sand will do anything to restore in practice the format that you like? The allegations of bias are just preposterous. Surtsicna (talk) 09:31, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  That's not true. A recent RM for George I and George II of GB failed. An RM for Victor Emmanuel III of Italy failed. How much more unambiguous can you get than "Victor Emmanuel III"? Franz Joseph I of Austria has failed twice in RMs. Vasilis I, II and III of Moscow all failed. Eystein I was moved to Eystein I of Norway. Haakon IV and Haakon V were moved without discussion, but Haakon II of Norway and Haakon III of Norway were left alone. Charles X is a French king, but Charles XI is a redirect to a Swedish king and Charles IX is a dab page. Srnec (talk) 05:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  RMs that are half and half split between "remove disambiguation" and "keep disambiguation" indicate that a guideline is unnecessary. See the bigger number of RMs in the opening statement. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:19, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes, the guideline should reflect how articles are actually named, and not omit examples because they don't fit with some editors' ideas of how they should be named. Andejons (talk) 06:14, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
• No, these titles should not be accepted. I thank the nominator for opening this RfC, as I have also noticed how problematic this issue has become. I am in a hurry right now, so my response will be brief for the time being. However, when I have a spare moment, I will present a detailed argument with plenty of policy-based and discussion evidence to substantiate my answer. Hurricane Andrew (444) 16:53, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
  • I have posted my detailed rationale at the bottom of this discussion. Hurricane Andrew (444) 00:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• Yes, there is clearly a consensus that monarch article titles that are the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for their WP:COMMONNAME do not need the "of country" natural disambiguator in the article title. This consensus has become well established in many WP:REQUESTED MOVES discussions over the past 13+ years, and this guideline should explicitly acknowledge that community consensus. The "of country" designation is a perfectly good use of WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION, but it should only be used when it is needed (i.e. when there is no primary topic for a certain monarchical name). Rreagan007 (talk) 03:11, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
• No, or at least not as specifically proposed. While I prefer "Name # of country" for all monarchs as it improves WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. And while I agree that articles like Carl XVI Gustaf and Alfonso XIII are WP:PRIMARYTOPICS and do unambiguously define their scope, I fear that those could not as easily be recognized without "of Sweden" or "of Spain". At the same time, I also understand that Elizabeth II, Louis XIV, Napoleon, and Maria Theresa are all relatively well-known figures and I am comfortable with those being exceptions to a rule. I would even be comfortable with moving some articles at the "Name of # country" format, such as Nicholas II of Russia, where Nicholas II accomplishes the same task. But will readers be able to understand who Gustav III was.

In general, I don't think we should encourage shorter titles as that could harm RECOGNIZABILITY. For me, its comparable to the idea that Obama, for example, is a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to Barak Obama, but we wouldn't entertain the idea that his article should just be "Obama" because it harms RECOGNIZABILITY, even if it is WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE.

In short, I don't think a point saying to use the most concise possible title should be added, but I wouldn't be so opposed if we better ensured that concision was balanced with RECOGNIZABILITY. That also being said, a large number of the present exceptions come from Britain, and I cannot say as of now how I would feel about a blanket proposal covering them. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Agnetha Fältskog is just as much "of Sweden" as Gustav III is. This argument is based on an incorrect understanding of the recognizability criterion. This criterion does not mean defining the subject in the title. It means, by the definition of it, that the person familiar with Gustav III will recognize that "Gustav III" refers to Gustav III; and they will because that is what Gustav III is called and there is no other. Surtsicna (talk) 17:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• No. It's sheer laziness. The whole change to the conventions was flawed and still is. Deb (talk) 10:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  Which change? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  The one that removed the need to differentiate between countries. Deb (talk) 14:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  1. You're talking as if it has been implemented.
  2. It seems like this RfC has expired already. I'll be filing a closure request soon.
  Edit: Someone has already filed one... Aaron Liu (talk) 15:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  I don't think you understand. There was a convention, as in Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, but the common namers managed to get it overturned. This was years before your arrival on Wikipedia. Deb (talk) 17:07, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

  The guideline has not changed since September 5, and even those changes were just changing examples and capitalization of explaining the guideline, not the rules. If we ignore these, the guideline hasn't changed since [1]. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Yes in the case of Elizabeth II, because the disambiguation page shows there is little scope for confusion, it mainly referring to things named after her. Other cases will need to be judged on their merits, according to how much scope there is for ambiguity. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:16, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• Yes per WP:CONCISE. Note that the proposal is to endorse the use of shorter titles where no disambiguation is needed (emphasis added). The arguments in favor seem to cite WP:CONSISTENT, which explicitly says Wikipedians have consistently shown that consistency does not control: Disambiguation. For instance, just because Georgia (country) exists, there is no reason to have articles titled, for instance, Azerbaijan (country), Armenia (country), etc. This applies to natural disambiguation, as well; the existence of Querétaro City and Chihuahua City does not mean we have to retitle Guadalajara to Guadalajara City (emphasis in original). WP:CONCISE and WP:CONSISTENT say we should avoid unnecessary "of Country" disambiguation. HouseBlaster^talk 20:11, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Statement by AndrewPeterT

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Well, the RMs are popping up & a few unilatteral page moves have begun, in these last few weeks. GoodDay (talk) 19:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, they have. And quite frankly, this is becoming a matter beyond which an RfC at this time can resolve. Hurricane Andrew (444) 19:36, 25 November 2023 (UTC), last edited 18:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

One year later

Since this section has not been archived yet, I would like to write the following for future records:

1. Count this post as a retraction of my WP:WALLOFTEXT and !vote above. Honestly, looking back, I am embarrassed that I even thought about writing something so long.
2. As of this post, I am no longer as passionate about this issue as I was then, especially considering WP:REDIRECTS will help navigate readers from plausible title alternatives.
3. It is quite evident I misread the RfC prompt at the time (in my zeal to defend WP:CONSISTENT). As I understand it now, the prompt was simply asking whether a guideline should be added to allow titles like Elizabeth II in the situations where it would be appropriate to do so (as opposed to a blanket elimination of the Name of Country format). In this context, I would have !voted yes. (I am unsure if !votes can be retroactively counted, but if so, please note this.)
4. My interpretation of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and WP:AT at the time was far more rigid than what I have since seen from other editors. I no longer hold such a strict interpretation.
5. Finally, as my edits since this RfC closure show, I am much better at avoiding WP:TLDR.

AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 18:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested moves to shorter titles

In light of the RfC about changing this guideline to endorse concise titles such as Elizabeth II, I have proposed several moves regarding articles about English kings (from Edward I to Edward V). Please see Talk:Edward I#Requested move 5 November 2023. Surtsicna (talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Well this push to eliminate "of country" from monarch bios page titles, is certainly in full swing. I'm guessing, heirs-apparent/presumptive & others in line of succession, will be next. GoodDay (talk) 19:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

That seems like a bit of a slippery slope. 2601:249:9301:D570:8D44:DAF4:3F4B:EDC7 (talk) 21:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Then there's the consorts. GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Then there's dukes, counts et al. When are they going to be trimmed? But apparently those titles can stay, unless they're Italian for some reason?

I regret not realizing this RFC was on at the time. I would have opposed it vigorously. What a disaster it is wreaking. Walrasiad (talk) 09:38, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

User:GoodDay - I think the moral shown is ‘Do not discard long-embedded practices.’ It just winds up being an incomplete change and directly degrades respect for the guidelines. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:03, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Title of the guideline

As the guideline is biased towards Europe as is most of Wikipedia, and restricts its coverage of non-European monarchs to a few bullet points essentially saying "there is no convention, look at WP:AT", I think this guideline's title should be changed to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (European royalty and nobility). Thoughts? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

As a note for the record, I have responded to this proposal here: diff AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 18:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

SOVEREIGN point 3 contradicts point 2

SOVEREIGN point 2 says "Use the most common, unambiguous name," and point 3 says "Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed." Sometimes, the most common name in English sources uses a territorial designation. Point 3 should be changed to "Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed or the name with the territorial designation is the most commonly recognizable name in line with WP:COMMONNAME. --JFHutson (talk) 16:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Of course it contradicts. Because the November RfC that changed the wording was a poorly-thought-through disaster. And needs to be revised. Walrasiad (talk) 12:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

BOLDly addressed. Good? —В²C ☎ 23:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I fear that this change leaves SOVEREIGN even more open to interpretation and dispute. Do we have any actual examples of sovereigns whose regnal name would be unambiguous without a territorial designation but whose common name unequivocally includes one? Rosbif73 (talk) 07:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Not offhand, but I don’t see why that’s relevant. With or without the clarification I added, and you reverted, the same WP:CRITERIA apply, just as they do for any other titles:

• If the subject’s most common name is unique, or is ambiguous but for which the subject is primary, then that’s the title. Otherwise we disambiguate.

That applies equally regardless of what the COMMONNAME is, including whether it includes “of country”.

Let’s not get confused by the fact that adding “of country” is often how we disambiguate these titles, when disambiguation is necessary.

None of this is affected at all by whether “we have any actual examples of sovereigns whose regnal name would be unambiguous without a territorial designation but whose common name unequivocally includes one”. So why are you asking for such examples? And why does the ability to produce such have anything to do with the clarification I added and you reverted? In other words:

If a sovereign’s most common name includes a territorial designation,

then that would be the title, even if their regnal name without such designation is unique.

Otherwise, territorial designation is included only if needed for disambiguation.

Whether there are any actual examples of sovereign’s with most common names that include territorial designations is besides the point. Maybe there are none… then we always use territorial designation only for disambiguation. Maybe there are a few… then we include the territorial designation in those titles respectively. 🤷‍♂️ Either way the same language is just as effective. В²C ☎ 12:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The problem, as I see it, is that people will then argue (and indeed already have attempted to argue in some recent RMs) over whether the common name of a particular monarch includes the "of country" or not. In other words, your bold change merely diluted the general "use the territorial designation only for disambiguation" intent of last November's RfC. Rosbif73 (talk) 13:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s not dilution. It’s clarification. After all, “use the territorial designation only for disambiguation" means “use the territorial designation only for disambiguation of the subject’s COMMONNAME when disambiguation is necessary because the COMMONNAME is ambiguous and this use is not primary for it.”

Regarding the need to argue about which is the COMMONNAME, good. That’s what title decision-making should be focused on: determining which is the COMMONNAME based on usage in RS. And the CONCISION razor settles any ties. —В²C ☎ 19:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab) § Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) - RfC drafting for reversion of the November 2023 change. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Titles of European monarchs

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Titles of European monarchs. Although previous participants in related discussions have been pinged, others who watch these guidelines may also be interested. Rosbif73 (talk) 07:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Baronage discussion

@DrKay: Thank you for your contribution to the article. I noticed that you have reverted my edit regarding the title of the baronage section. I'd like to understand your reasoning for not following the general article titling policy in this case.

Could you please explain why you believe the baronage titles should not adhere to the standard titling conventions used throughout the rest of the article? I'm happy to discuss this further so we can reach an agreement. Daniel Plumber (talk) 20:41, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you misread my edit summary. We should follow the general article titling policy. There is no need for a separate convention. DrKay (talk) 21:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh yeah, you are right. My apologies.

Regarding this, I think I would have to disagree with you there:

"The dignity of baron is protected by the Scotland Act 2000 and recognised by the Crown as a title of nobility with the status of minor baron. The title Baron of X becomes part of the legal name as a title of nobility and is included in British passports for official documents."

Baronage titles, due to legal precedent and being titles of nobility, as a rule should follow peerage format on Wikipedia. Moreover, the distinctive natures of these titles (Baron of X as opposed to Baron X in England/Ireland and recognised by the Lord Lyon as forming part of the name, similar to territorial designations) make it necessary to be separately noted, and not just following general policy. Daniel Plumber (talk) 22:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure if we're talking about titles in the Baronage following the peerage convention or the general convention. If the former, it should in my opinion be stated clearly in the naming convention. If the intention on the other hand is to treat these titles differently, I would warn against it: Treating the Scottish baronage differently to that of the the rest of the British nobility could lead to inconsistencies in how British nobility is portrayed. We need to be really, really careful to avoid Anglocentric bias on Wikipedia.

AFAIK, these titles are included in the holder's passport. Upon ascending to a title, the holder's surname is changed to include the territorial designation. It would require some really strong arguments should we have a fixed policy to ignore this.

I would certainly suggest a default policy in line with that of other British peerages, with exceptions only where the individual is clearly not known publicly by the title. For Chiefs and Chieftains and many other Barons, the title is literally how they are known to their followers and others. Charliez (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

We don't use legal names, and because baronages can be bought and sold as property some of the owners aren't British, so they don't have British passports. British passports also include other titles, such as 'Doctor', 'Professor', 'Ms', etc. in the same field as that used for baronages and we don't include these on wikipedia, nor should we. The 'Observation' field of the passport is not the person's legal name. It is a descriptor. DrKay (talk) 07:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The points you raised are valid, but I don't believe they sufficiently address the question of why baronage titles should be excluded. By convention, Scottish barons are addressed in a similar manner to peerage titleholders, they are recognised as "titled nobles" under Scots law, and they occupy a place in the Scottish order of precedence.

Unless there is a compelling argument for denying the status of Scottish barons, I don't think it would be appropriate to apply an "Anglocentric perspective" on Scottish nobility, as the above editor noted. The Scottish nobility system is far more complex than the rest of the United Kingdom. Daniel Plumber (talk) 12:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@DrKay and fellow editors, thank you for the ongoing discussion. I appreciate the perspectives shared and believe it's important to find a solution that respects both Wikipedia's guidelines and the unique nature of Scottish baronage titles.

@DrKay has raised valid points regarding the consistency of titling across Wikipedia. However, I believe the edit that was reverted deserves reconsideration due to the distinct historical and legal status of Scottish baronage titles.

The edit in question was:

"Titles in the Baronage of Scotland as a rule follow the peerage format above. The Scottish baronage predates the peerage and coexists to this day. The dignity of baron is protected by the Scotland Act 2000 and recognised by the Crown as a title of nobility with the status of minor baron. The title Baron of X becomes part of the legal name as a title of nobility and is included in British passports for official documents. The most famous baronial title holder is Prince William holding the title of Baron of Renfrew. There are around 30 Scottish clan chiefs who are also barons, styled in the baronial format. For example, Lorne Maclaine, Baron of Moy or Peregrine Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Baron of Moncreiffe."

The fact that the heir to the British throne—Prince William—holds the title of Baron of Renfrew highlights the continued relevance and recognition of these titles.

In comparison, there are many foreign holders of peerage titles that don't live in Britain, to name few:

Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester (Australian)

Filippo Giambattista Rospigliosi, 12th Earl of Newburgh (Italian)

Simon Abney-Hastings, 15th Earl of Loudoun (Australian)

Peter St John, 9th Earl of Orkney (Canadian)

Nevinson de Courcy, 36th Baron Kingsale (New Zealander, and possibly has never visited Britain)

In their Australian, Canadian, NZ, and Italian passports, their titles of nobility are not recorded, but this does not diminish the recognition or importance of their titles within British nobility. I don't believe anyone is suggesting that we alter the way these titles are presented on Wikipedia based on their passport status.

Regarding British passports, there is an important distinction between "THE HOLDER IS ALSO KNOWN AS" and "THE HOLDER IS." The former is used for a stage name or foreign title, that are not officially recognised as part of the legal name. In contrast, "THE HOLDER IS" refers to the UK-recognised full legal name, including nobility title, which is verified through HMPO’s review of a Lord Lyon letters patent (the monarch's representative in Scotland decreeing the holder's legal name with baronial title for all official purposes) or a Burke's Peerage genealogical profile that verifies the same. This is a significant recognition by the Crown, reflecting the legal and noble status of the title. Moreover, to have "Doctor" added to the observation field, evidence is required—observations are not taken at face value without verification.

However, this is not about professional titles like 'doctor' or 'professor.'

The focus here is on guidelines for titles of nobility on wikpipedia. Scottish baronage titles, which are hereditary titles of nobility recognised by the Crown as noble and ranking below a Lord of Parliament but above a Scottish Laird in the British system. As Sir Thomas Innes of Learney noted, Scottish Barons have historically been considered equivalent to Continental barons, underscoring their significance.

While it’s true that baronial titles can be bought and sold, the market for selling barony titles is a tiny one - there might only be 1 or 2 sales a year sometimes none and multiple years of no sales - they're actually nearly impossible to buy as they're not for sale at any price from these families in most cases. The current holders are not selling they're family heirlooms. For example, there are some 30 scottish clan chiefs that are barons. Some of the titles come with hereditary offices like Sheriff or Constable of a Castle, pageantry and ceremony of state. Some had historic power over life and death with criminal courts. Some still today operate a Baron's court with officers appointed like a Barron Ballie that can can get a special coat of arms from lyon etc and hold civil courts and a lot of charitable community involvement.

Additionally, there are more Scottish barons who own gentry estates than Scottish peers, with hereditary titles typically attached to these estates, ensuring they are passed down through the generations.

Returning to the main point, the topic in question is not the legal name of a baronage title holder, but rather the title of nobility itself, which predates the Scottish peerage and coexists to this day. It is a respected, honorable rank within the nobility, with the baronage being one of the original three estates of Scotland. Therefore, just like Scottish Clan Chiefs, I believe Scottish barons are notable on Wikipedia. This important cultural history is valued and should, as a rule, follow the peerage style format on Wikipedia, mirroring British society.

Given these factors, I suggest that Scottish baronage titles should of course follow the peerage format on Wikipedia, reflecting their noble status and historical significance. This approach would not only preserve the integrity of the titles but also ensure that we accurately represent the rich tapestry of British nobility, avoiding any unintentional Anglocentric bias as @Daniel Plumber @Charliez rightly points out.

To address this more comprehensively, it may be worth considering the creation of a dedicated project page for the Baronage of Scotland, akin to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Clans_of_Scotland. This would allow for a more focused effort in documenting the histories and significance of these titles, ensuring that they are presented with the context and respect they deserve.

I encourage others to share their thoughts on this, as a consensus that reflects the broader community's view will be crucial in guiding how we move forward. Kellycrak88 (talk) 12:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I certainly agree with your points. The edit we're discussing seems quite comprehensive to me and, I believe, establishes a style of address that aligns these Scottish titles with other British titles.

In my opinion, a compelling argument (beyond avoiding discrimination against traditional Scottish titles) is that many of these barons are primarily known by their traditional titles, making it logical to use those titles when naming articles. I'd support reversing the removal of this policy. Charliez (talk) 13:10, 18 August 2024 (UTC) — Charliez (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I support including the Scottish Baronage as a separate entry on this list. I am deeply uncomfortable discriminating against these traditional Scottish titles. Alvise Figà Talamanca (talk) 15:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC) — Alvise Figà Talamanca (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

gentle DrKay, I am new to wikipedia and I am registered with my name, I made a comment in a topic in which I am very interested for personal reason, that I can demonstrate, but really I don't understand what meatpuppets mean. Can you please explain, is it a welcome to new users as per wikipedia policy? Thanks in advance for the kind answer Alvise Figà Talamanca (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

You can read here: WP:MEATPUPPET D1551D3N7 (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Quoting from that page: The term meatpuppet may be seen by some as derogatory and should be used with care, in keeping with Wikipedia:Civility. Because of the processes above, it may be counterproductive to directly accuse someone of being a "meatpuppet", and doing so will often only inflame the dispute.

Regarding the allegation, I want to reassure everyone that I have not been recruited by anyone, and I am not involved with multiple accounts. I am participating in this discussion independently.

I have provided my opinion at length and in a professional and courteous manner, carefully addressing each of @DrKay's concerns - who also appears to be (currently) the only user in the thread against the consensus. Consensus building is a fundamental part of Wikipedia, and the fact that multiple users agree with my point of view should not be dismissed or met with accusations. Instead, I encourage a continued focus on the content of the discussion and a constructive approach to resolving any disagreements. Kellycrak88 (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I have added a note on @DrKay's talk page to which I haven't yet had a reply. While I understand the concerns meatpuppet cause, I believe it may not be entirely fair to tag a 20-year-old account that posts on a variety of subjects as both a meatpuppet and a Single Purpose Account.

While contributors will always have some bias for certain subjects or editorial directions, I always aim to approach topics with an independent and neutral perspective. Agreement over an editorial direction is not in itself a sufficient indicator of "meatpuppet" accounts. I certainly do not consider myself a puppet... Charliez (talk) 20:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

When multiple accounts make the same false ignorant claim, that is highly indicative that they are the same editor. It is unlikely that so many editors would make an identical error. The title Baron is not part of the legal name for Scottish feudal barons. It can only be recorded in the Observations field of the passport not the field for legal name. This is explicit in the government guidelines. Only members of the House of Lords and knights and dames can record titles in the name field. See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/titles-included-in-passports/titles-accessible#bookmark121. Scottish feudal barons are only permitted a territorial designator (such as "of that Ilk"). They are not permitted the title of Baron anywhere other than the Observation field, which is the same field used for stage names and professional titles. Scottish feudal baronies are not the same as peerages. They are commodities not honours. DrKay (talk) 21:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@DrKay, thank you for your clarification. Your comments make more sense to me when considered in the context you describe. However, I believe you might have misread the HMPO guidelines. Please see: Titles in Passports https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/titles-included-in-passports/titles-accessible. It clearly states under Scottish feudal baronies: "The correct form will be for their surname to change to include the territorial designation as part of their surname. For example: Surname: (surname) of (territorial designation) Forename: (forenames)." This is the current practice, and I think this may explain why multiple users have shared the same opinion.

As I mentioned, my account is 20 years old and has contributed to a wide range of topics. Although I may not have posted frequently, and while you may be a significant contributor to this site (for which we are all grateful), I believe I should be allowed to hold an opinion contrary to yours as long as it is discussed in a sensible manner and in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. Charliez (talk) 21:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

@DrKay I would kindly ask you to reconsider your statement, as I am not involved with multiple accounts. I believe this accusation is unfair and detracts from the constructive nature of this discussion. Please refer back to my message above regarding British passports, which you seem to have overlooked. I would appreciate it if you could review my previous response before replying again.

HMPO reviews a Lord Lyon letters patent (the monarch's representative in Scotland) decreeing the holder's legal name, including the baronial title for all official purposes. This document, as demonstrated here [link: http://www.scotarmigers.net/ssagallery/albums/userpics/10001/lindsay-grant.jpg], confirms the baronial title as part of the legal name. Btw this is only issued if the Lord Lyon judges if the person is a virtuous and deserving person.

The reason the title is not in the surname field is simply due to space limitations, especially when a territorial designation is involved. To provide an example, as you reference peers, they also have "THE HOLDER IS John Jason Smith, Duke of London" in the observation field, with the title "Duke of London" in the surname field. The family name "Smith," though not in the main personal details page, still remains part of their legal name—it's just placed in the observation field due to space constraints.

With all due respect, I believe it is important to fully consider the points I’ve raised. This conversation should remain focused on factual information and collaborative discussion. Kellycrak88 (talk) 21:32, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually, on re-reading your comment I see that you're specifically talking about the word "baron" not the "of X". This is correct, but I would certainly consider "of Townsname" a title. Charliez (talk) 21:35, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Peers don't have territorial designations, while all Scottish Baronets have territorial designations, and a mixture of Scottish Barons have them. However, HMPO don't make a distinction and apply a territorial designation to all barons - hence the spacing issue. It doesn't mean Baron of X is not their legal title. Much in the same for a peer it doesn't mean their family name is not part of their legal name. Kellycrak88 (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't really care about what HMPO has to say (although both you and fellow editors made valid points) because in Wikipedia we do not use legal names. If a person is known as a baron, they should be accorded baron of the realm. Period.

As you know, Wikipedia is not a circus, yet pure comedy gold comes from you. It's not just comedy gold, but also a pure blatant hoax from you. You say a barony, which was granted in the same manner as peerage titles (by the Charter of the Great Seal of Scotland), the only difference being that it is assignable (remainder to heirs and assignees), is not an honour? You do know that baronies were granted as a gift of the king to loyal vassals. How on earth is it, not an honour, as you say? If by "honour" you mean recent gifts from the sovereign, it may fit into the "dignity" category, but again, most hereditary peerage titles would fit into the "dignity" category too.

And about "commodities," may I ask what proprietary rights/interests do baronies have? As far as I know, nothing. All rights were stripped away in the 2004 Act, retaining only the dignity of the baron. Now, some of you might say, "oh, it can be sold, so it must bring some monetary value to the soon-to-not-be-a-baron anymore." If you give something to someone, you get something in return. That's basic logic - no one's going to be rich by selling their own baronies. Unless you have any authoritative scholarly sources that state Scottish baronies aren't honours but commodities instead, your assertion would still not be entertained. I'm confident I have some that say otherwise.

Need I remind you all that no one has been able to make counter-arguments against my previous contentions? Therefore, I remain entitled to my view. Daniel Plumber (talk) 01:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The suggested text says "The title Baron of X becomes part of the legal name as a title of nobility and is included in British passports for official documents." but the source given to support this[2], section "Scottish feudal baronies" doesn't support this: their legal name will change from "John Smith" to "John Smith of Glenfiddich", not "John Smith, Baron of Glenfiddich" ("Surname: (surname) of (territorial designation) Forename: (forenames)"), and the "baron of" part is only in the observations, not in the name. Fram (talk) 10:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

In the spirit of not repeating myself, I want to reiterate that I have already addressed this issue above. The legal name, including the title "Baron of X," is granted by a previous monarch and the current holder gets recognised by the Crown through the Lord Lyon (the letters patent example link I shared above), and this title is an official part of the individual's legal name. The reason the title "Baron of X" appears in the Observation field of a passport, rather than the surname field, is due to space constraints of territorial designations. For example, "Livingston of Bachuil, Baron of the Bachuil" or "Agasim-Pereira of Fulwood and Dirleton, Baron of Fulwood and Dirleton" are too long to fit in the surname field, which is why the full legal name is placed in the Observation field.

As I mentioned earlier, this does not diminish the legal recognition of the title by the Crown. If you review my previous comments, you'll also see that peers often also have their family name in the Observation field, yet it remains part of their legal name (I know this because I've gone into contract with peers they use their family name with their full name and title). This distinction in the Observation field for stage names or UK-recognised full legal name is important, and I’ve explained it in detail in my previous responses.

However, I do acknowledge that the discussion about passport entries may be a distraction from the main issue of reaching consensus on the edit in question. If the passport comment is creating confusion or contention, I am happy to suggest a compromise: we could remove the reference to passports and leave the rest of the proposed edit intact. As @DrKay has already noted, Wikipedia does not necessarily follow legal names, even though the baron title is legal. Therefore, removing the passport mention could help keep the conversation focused on the primary issue.

The consensus here is that the Scottish baron edit should be reverted to avoid potential Anglocentric bias and to accurately reflect the status of these titles. I encourage others to avoid confirmation bias and re-evaluate the information presented with a more open approach to the discussion, focusing on the facts rather than dismissing differing perspectives. Kellycrak88 (talk) 11:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I have seen no evidence that the baron name as suggested is legal, and I see a lot of claims in the above discussion about the importance and long history of the title, which seems to ignore the division / duplication created, with one title having a long history and importance, and the "feudal" one split of recently and having little to no value (apart from a financial one). For example the old title Lord Balvaird and the new Lord of Balvaird: until recently they were the same title, for the same person. Or Lord Hailes, which became extinct upon the death of Patrick Buchan-Hepburn, 1st Baron Hailes, compared to Lord of Hailes, the bought and sold other title. Fram (talk) 12:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram I would like to point out that the Lord Lyon letters patent example I provided above is a clear demonstration of the legal recognition of a baron's title. As the monarch's representative in Scotland, the Lord Lyon's authority to recognise these titles on behalf of the crown is well-established.

Regarding your other point, it's important to note that the vast majority of these titles—around 95%—are "Baron of" titles, which are not linked to any peerage titles as far as I'm aware. I do acknowledge that anomaly titles "Lord of" and "Earl of" titles in the Baronage of Scotland can sometimes have a connection to extinct or extant peerages, but this is not the case for the "Baron of" titles we are discussing many of which have a very rich and dynastic hereditary history. Along with cultural heritage in Scotland.

The Declaration of Arbroath in 1320 is a letter sealed by about 40 barons of the kingdom of Scotland to the pope, asking him to recognise Scotland's independence and acknowledge Robert the Bruce as the country's lawful king. Kellycrak88 (talk) 12:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Baronage titles (I'd rather not mention the word "feudal" as feudalism was abolished) and peerage titles are not the same. They are separate entities, usually held by the same person, and have identical designations due to historical circumstances.

A baronage title was erected by a charter of erection, and peerage titles were granted by charters of gift (the Scottish term for letters patent) (both were under the Great Seal). The peerage title is the reason that the holder was entitled to attend Parliament and the House of Lords in modern times, after a 1428 act lifted the burden of barones minores to attend Parliament. The baronage title is the reason for why the holder had jurisdiction over their tenants and feudal rights until 2004. Both types enjoy the same historical significance as each other, so saying baronage titles are insignificant compared to peerage titles is somewhat unfair. Daniel Plumber (talk) 12:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Lord Lyon then published a list of clan chiefs and "heads of territorial houses" in the Edinburgh Gazette. In this list, Lyon listed some surnames that incorporate "Baron of X" with the surname, for example "THACKER, BARON OF FETTERNEAR." So yes, they do form part of the name.

As for why HMPO doesn't include "Baron of X" in barons' passports, they are not very consistent regarding titles as I observe. For example, they still include territorial designations for barons regardless of whether the baron still holds the territorial designation. Meanwhile, genuine territorial designation holders (lairds) do not enjoy the same privileges, even if they are entitled to it. Lyon is the final authority in Scotland regarding aristocratic name changes. Daniel Plumber (talk) 12:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram you said "I have seen no evidence that the baron name as suggested is legal" in regards to strictly legal may I point you to:

"Abolition of Feudal Tenure etc. (Scotland) Act 2000, 63

Baronies and other dignities and offices: "nothing in this Act affects the dignity of baron or any other dignity or office (whether or not of feudal origin)" "dignity" includes any quality or precedence associated with, and any heraldic privilege incidental to, the noble quality and use of title as covered in the Scottish Law Commission Report that led to the act".

UK Government Legislation Website. 16 June 2004. Retrieved 16 June 2004. Kellycrak88 (talk) 13:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The title and the legal name are not the same, or at the very least that isn't clear from what you post here. For "true" barons, the surname is changed to "The Lord" + title. For the feudal baronies, this isn't done (they are also the only group not included in the "How to record titles of nobility in a passport" section, but separately). Fram (talk) 13:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram, I believe we’re getting sidetracked by the passport discussion, which is irrelevant to the guidelines for Scottish barons on this page. The legality of these titles has been established through Acts of Parliament and the Lord Lyon’s letters patent, as I’ve demonstrated. It seems my detailed points on passports in previous responses have not been fully acknowledged, but I think it’s time we move on from this particular topic.

Let’s refocus on the main issue, which is reaching a consensus on how these titles should be represented on Wikipedia. The key point here is ensuring that Wikipedia accurately reflects the legal and historical status of these titles, without getting bogged down in side issues. Kellycrak88 (talk) 13:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Article titles at the very least have little if anything to do with the "historical status" of these titles, and the legal status of these titles at the moment is comparable to e.g. baronets, i.e. they are real but have no other importance. And I disagree that the passport discussion isn't important if the proposed inclusion reads in part "The title Baron of X becomes part of the legal name as a title of nobility and is included in British passports for official documents." Without actual evidence for this (not the legality of the title, but "baron of X" becoming part of the legal name, which is a different claim), this bit at the very least has no business being in a manual of style.

As an aside, above you qoute Section 63: "dignity" includes any quality or precedence associated with, and any heraldic privilege incidental to, the noble quality and use of title as covered in the Scottish Law Commission Report that led to the act": but the linked text says "“dignity” includes any quality or precedence associated with, and any heraldic privilege incidental to, a dignity;". I can't find your quote (the second part) anywhere apart from other Wikipedia articles. Fram (talk) 13:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram feel free to click the link to read the original act, that part is not quoted it's not in quotations, it's giving context context based on the Scottish Law Commission Report that led to the Act that I previously sent to you on another Talk page.

It seems my responses are being overlooked or not fully read :( as I already mentioned in my response above to you:

If the passport comment is creating confusion or contention, I am happy to suggest a compromise: we could remove the reference to passports and leave the rest of the proposed edit intact. Kellycrak88 (talk) 13:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

You provide a quote which is incorrect, and then claim "that part is not quoted"? Then why include it? If it isn't in the law, you shouldn't posted it as if it is part of that link. And no, your responses aren't fully read, as they are confusing, internally contradictory, and as seen here, can't be trusted to be factual. Fram (talk) 14:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram I want to clarify that the information I provided is certainly not incorrect. The context I offered was explained the meaning of "dignity" as understood in the Scottish Law Commission Report that led to the Act. The text after the quotation is not a direct quote (hence not in quotations), and I apologise if that wasn’t clear, the link was provided to encourage you to click through and read it yourself.

Regarding your comment about my responses being "confusing, internally contradictory, and not factual," I respectfully disagree. I have made a consistent effort to provide accurate information supported by evidence, and I believe my points have been clear and straightforward. The legal status of these titles and the recognition provided by the Lord Lyon are well-documented, and I’ve provided multiple references to support this.

It seems that this critique is more about disagreeing with my point of view and not liking the facts I’ve provided, which prove the legality of these titles. If there's any specific part of my responses that you find unclear or believe to be incorrect, I’m open to discussing it further. However, I believe it’s important that we keep the discussion focused on the facts and work towards a constructive resolution. Kellycrak88 (talk) 14:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Your literal text, right above here, for anyone to see, ""dignity" includes any quality or precedence associated with, and any heraldic privilege incidental to, the noble quality and use of title as covered in the Scottish Law Commission Report that led to the act" with a link to the UK gov website, which has the first part of your quote (and it is a quote, in quotes), but not the second part. Why you insist that "The text after the quotation is not a direct quote (hence not in quotations)" when it clearly was written otherwise is not clear. Fram (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram I appreciate your attention to detail, again, I apologise for any confusion caused, but I hope my immediate follow-up clarification helped. Let’s move forward and focus on reaching a consensus on how these titles should be represented on Wikipedia. Kellycrak88 (talk) 15:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

You insist on the legality of these titles, which I don't believe anyone has disputed. Discussion are about how we should title these, about the exact text of the potential section included for these, and more in general about the importance of the current ones and their status compared to the older ones. Perhaps it would be helpful if we had 5 or so current articles and a discussion about what the name would be in these cases. Looking at Baronage of Scotland, it seems we have very, very few articles which would be affected by this proposal, so perhaps nothing needs to be done anyway per WP:CREEP. Fram (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Facts matter, Fram. I agree with Kellycrak88 that all topics, niche or not, should be approached with an open mind. We should seek consensus and resolution. I do think that Kelly has tried their best to provide us with credible sources here, as no one is perfect we should expect inconsistencies to occur.

Personally, I'd like to seek a settlement that would satisfy all parties. The noble aspects of Scottish baronies, though still arguable about their position in the Scottish nobility hierarchy, are undeniable. Daniel Plumber (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Can we stop arguing about HMPO stuff? It's pointless, as the main topic is concerned with naming conventions rather than something else. Daniel Plumber (talk) 14:12, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Then start by changing your proposed text and exclude "The title Baron of X becomes part of the legal name as a title of nobility and is included in British passports for official documents." You are the one that included it in the naming convention, please don't blame others if they take a critical look to what you want to include. Fram (talk) 14:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

My apologies. If this is what we want then I'm happy to omit that part from the text, provided that the text is allowed to be in the article. If no one opposes the idea then I will bring the text back to its place. Daniel Plumber (talk) 14:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I’ve been following this discussion, and I was thinking that appears that their is no dispute about whether the titles are legally recognized ( in the UK), and their appears to be no dispute about whether the title is mentioned on British passports, their only appears to be a dispute about whether it is the “legal name”. Can we just say that the title appears on British passports under the observation section and leave it at that. Muirton (talk) 15:33, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fram thank for sharing, you raise a valid point that WP:CREEP might be sufficient for now, however there has been discussion to create a wiki project similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Clans_of_Scotland to create dedicated pages for barons especially the most historic and prestigious supported by credible sources links of course, that could possible eventually be 300-400 pages, if there enough interest and contributors got behind it. It does seem to me that is some appetite among editors for this kind of project. It might be worth revisiting adding guidelines once this project is off the ground? Kellycrak88 (talk) 15:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

If such pages are created, and there turns out to be discussion about the titles, then adding guidance may be helpful. It seems to be as if most of these have a more substantial or important title anyway, in which case there is no problem as the feudal barony won't be part of the article title anyway. Fram (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2000/5/notes/division/1/3/6/11

Have a read of this link I find. It's the official explanatory notes of the Scotland Act 2000 that quote the Scottish Law Commission report.

Section 195 "ownership of such an estate and land enables the owner to adopt the title of "Baron of …"

Section 196 "has the right to use the title of baron AND, if granted armorial bearings by the Lord Lyon, to add certain special baronial features to the coat of arms"

Section 197 Subsection (1) "expressly preserves the dignity of baron... and any other dignity or office whether or not of feudal origin."

Section 198 Subsection (2) ""provides that the retained dignity of baron will no longer attach to the land. It will be a floating dignity which can be bought and sold as incorporeal heritable property and may be bequeathed by will in the normal way. If a baron dies intestate, the barony would transmit to the eldest son or other heir in accordance with the pre-1964 rules on intestate succession which were preserved by the Succession (Scotland) Act 1964 for "any title, coat of arms, honour or dignity transmissible on the death of the holder""

Section 200 Subsection (4) "makes it clear that... "dignity" includes matters of heraldry and precedence incidental to a dignity, such as the addition of certain special baronial features to a coat of arms."

@Fram I believe you've deleted from the Baronage of Scotland a number of these points that are provided for in the letter of the law.

Therefore that can be no dispute about these titles and the addition to this page (as long as we build up a number of notable dedicated title pages). Kellycrak88 (talk) 17:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

this line also also confirms that it is title, coat of arms, honour and dignity @DrKay and they wouldn't be calling them a baron by the letter of the law if they're weren't a baron "If a baron dies intestate, the barony would transmit to the eldest son or other heir in accordance with the pre-1964 rules on intestate succession which were preserved by the Succession (Scotland) Act 1964 for "any title, coat of arms, honour or dignity transmissible on the death of the holder"" Kellycrak88 (talk) 17:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Unnecessary WP:CREEP. Just use the general article titling policy and the existing conventions. DrKay (talk) 17:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  Support. Treating these ancient Scottish titles in the same way as English titles will help limit Anglocentric bias on Wikipedia. Charliez (talk) 20:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC) — Charliez (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  My account is 20 years old and has posted on a number of different subjects over those years. Tagging it as a single purpose account because you disagree with my opinion is quite frankly abuse of that tag. Charliez (talk) 10:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. They are a distinct class within the nobility, and their significance makes them not fall within the remit of WP:CREEP. Their way of address is similar to that of a peer and should have a separate convention that notes so. Daniel Plumber (talk) 00:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose on producedural grounds. The justifications for this suggestion can probably be found somewhere in the above, but it is not in the first few posts, and the discussion includes some heavy walls of text. I don't think we should adopt a new rule for article titles based on such discussion. The suggested new rule and its motivation needs to be presented in a concise way. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 04:17, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  I also agree with the observation of "meatpuppetry" i.e. that a specific group of editors has been mobilized. This makes it difficult to assess whether there is any actual consensus here. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 06:49, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  These are niche arguments it is obvious that few people know it and write about it. i think wikipedia users should be grateful of this, let's hope that some other user read this discussion and contribute also with other points of view. Thesan2187 (talk) 07:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  The private channel mentioned at User talk:Daniel Plumber/sandbox/WikiProject Baronage of Scotland#Private channel is probably where these editors are coming from. Please read WP:INAPPNOTE on canvassing. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 04:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  The channel is meant for collaborating on creating new articles in regard of WP:BARONAGE only; I feel that it's inconvenient to use the talk page. I'm not aware of any 'mobilisations' occurring in the channel, so any mobilisations you see are not related to the channel but may come from individual editors instead, it cannot be canvassing as I observe it. If communicating privately is in breach of the rule, I apologise and am happy to withdraw the notice on the talk page. Daniel Plumber (talk) 06:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  Support. As every objection raised has been met with well-substantiated facts and legal responses obviously the support argument has been won. It appears the remaining opposition is based on personal opinions that are biased against Scottish titles. I am approaching this from a neutral stance as an Irishman!

  Re: Meatpuppet I reiterate you must avoid making unfounded accusations. Such comments can be harmful and may discourage constructive participation from others.

  As I already replied to @Fram above, I believe his suggestion was sensible, WP:CREEP might be sufficient for now and once a sufficient amount of pages are created in this topic we can revisit adding guidelines here. Kellycrak88 (talk) 09:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. New rule will make wikipedia richer and historically accurate, being these scottish titles so special and unique as detailed in the long discussion, and no one has nothing to lose from this. I propose that someone briefly summarize the discussion. Thesan2187 (talk) 06:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC) — Thesan2187 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Oppose per Jähmefyysikko and DrKay. Why on earth would we adopt this 'special pleading' for a tiny subset of the British population? We have WP:COMMONNAME for a very good reason - to make things easier for the reader. That should apply to all articles about so-called "nobles". Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  Tiny subset of the British population? Let’s put this in perspective.

  There are roughly 1,500 peers alive today (784 in the House of Lords and about 700 who are not). In comparison, there are up to 400 extant Scottish barony titles today, not to mention the many historic and notable holders since medieval times - and note the baronage predates the peerage in antiquity.

  When compared to other nobility, this is far from a tiny subset. Kellycrak88 (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  Well, it seems like you have to put better argument than that. Daniel Plumber (talk) 01:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, let's put this in perspective. The population of the UK is approximately 68,000,000. WP:COMMONNAME applies to 99.999% of those notable enough to have their own article. Does owning a baronage make one notable? I would say not, but let's say it does. WP:COMMONNAME should apply to those other 400 people, too. 100% of BLP articles at WP:COMMONNAME would serve our readers better. Create a list of baronages article, and link to them, and/or appropriate categories, and those worthy of articles can still be found by those interested in minor, quaint British customs. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:19, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Like I said above (but no bolded vote yet, so here we are), per WP:CREEP; the disturbing repeated insistence on "legal responses" (which were utterly unconvincing to boot); the ongoing spam of non-notable persons who buy old titles and then get a fancy Wikipedia article, armorial, page title, ... even though many of them have no notability at all and should be at most some minor footnote somewhere; the quite correct claim that this is a tiny subset of people (as many of those 400 who haven't yet sold this title have a more substantial title anyway)... Fram (talk) 07:21, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

  Support. Because Scotland was the last place to officially abolish feudalism, these Scottish titles are unique in the world, not just in the UK system. Since the beginning of these titles, in medieval period, the holder has always had the power to transfer them at will ( including by sale). You can check with any Scottish solicitor about that. Because this is considered outside the mainstream for titles now, I think makes them more interesting, not less. I don’t know if there is an “Anglocentric bias”, but Scotland has its own legal system and many people don’t realize that. Muirton (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

  There would only be a bio article in the first place if it met notability threshold. The only discussion here is whether articles should, as a rule, follow the peerage format so Peter Smith, Baron of Exton (with title in the nobility box, etc) instead of Peter Smith with a footnote mention. Under your proposals, pages like this William IV, Lord of Douglas, the historic title Robert dr Brus, 1st Lord of Annandale, or chief of clans like Peregrine Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Baron of Moncreiffe, would be stripped of their titles and provide no protecting against anglocentric scottish title bias. The WP:BARONAGE project run by a small growing group of editors, is working to create 300-400 pages on the histories of these ancient titles, bio pages would only be relevant if there is notability. The notion that legal responses are "disturbing" is surprising, especially since we’ve provided well-reasoned arguments grounded in facts. The repeated claim that these titles are associated with non-notable persons overlooks the reality that notability thresholds must be met before creating a biography page. It’s interesting that there seems to be a bias against these Scottish titles because they can be bought (even though hardly any are sold), while there’s no issue with the notability of English titles that are inherited by accident of birth or acquired through political donations. Not to mention that the majority of historic gentry estates in Scotland are owned by barons, not peers. In the spirit of reaching consensus, I suggest we remove the wider statement including mention of passports with guidelines simply stating: Titles in the Baronage of Scotland as a rule follow the peerage format above. Kellycrak88 (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

No idea why you include Peregrine Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Baron of Moncreiffe as an example of an article that might be moved to some "anglocentric" title if this proposal isn't accepted. The page as of now isn't at that title but at Peregrine Moncreiffe of that Ilk, as you are well aware. Again, it's very hard to have a constructive discussion or to take your arguments serious if you resort to those weird tactics. Fram (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

there are no weird tactics, you're continuing to try and pick holes rather than engage with the substance of the discussion. I quoted his name with title to show he had a title (if you click through to the page it says The Hon. Peregrine David Euan Malcolm Moncreiffe, later Moncreiffe of that Ilk, Baron of Moncreiffe and Easter Moncreiffe and Chief of Clan Moncreiffe) - if your oppose motion is passed then his baron title could be removed from the 1st line part of his name and mentioned as a footnote later down in the article, all I am saying is that baronage titles as a rule should follow peerage title format, as a guideline to protect these titles. Kellycrak88 (talk) 16:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Daniel Plumber sought out my advice here. I'm taking their word for it that they're not trying to recruit me to the discussion, since I lack evidence to the contrary. I'm just putting this message here for full disclosure and transparency. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 00:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Comment The discussion below on "Treatment of British peerage" is relevant to this; those involved in the debate may consider if this disagreement can be solved through the changes proposed by @Largoplazo (videlicet relying on the standard naming convention with the exceptions specifically included there to allow for subjects known mostly through their titles (or other descriptors). Charliez (talk) 23:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Treatment of British peerage

What objective rationale is there for Wikipedia to bestow on, out of all the people from all countries on the planet, members of the nobility of exactly one country, the most magnanimous honor of including their honorific after their name in the titles of articles about them, regardless of any need to disambiguate them? If not British monarchs, or Danish nobility, or people with PhDs, then why, of all the groups there are in the world, people who've been accorded a particular type of honor in one country? Largoplazo (talk) 16:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Britain and Denmark are both constitutional monarchies where these titles have some recognition. There are lots of other groups where honorifics have their own policy and treatment like MOS:ISLAMHON and MOS:PHD like you've mentioned. Is there some group of people with honorifics you feel is being treated differently somehow or is your complaint just that other countries don't have a peerage system? Some examples of what you would like changed would help make your comment clearer. D1551D3N7 (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The other guidelines you pointed to don't provide for including the honorific or "PhD" in article titles. We have Carl Sagan, not Carl Sagan, PhD. My complaint isn't that it's bad that a guideline was directed at this group but that what it provides appears to be at odds with, as I said, what appears to be provided for everybody else on earth. Why is Wikipedia elevating this group of people to be honored above all others in their article titles by having their glory spelled out in the big letters at the top? This is not WP:NPOV, it's not what Wikipedia normally does.

Moreover, if it was going to be done, one would think that we'd start at the top and recite the full title of monarchs in their article titles (King Charles III of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland instead of, simply, Charles III) before we decided to accord such grand treatment to the next most special group down from them. So it doesn't make sense even within the basic premise that they deserve such special recognition because of their place in the social class hierarchy of that particular country.

It makes it look like Wikipedia has a Burke's Peerage fetish. Or is funded by them. Largoplazo (talk) 20:02, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Removing the special status of the English peers, would certainly sort the issue of the Scottish Baronage being discussed above. I agree that a policy must either encompass all nobles or none. Charliez (talk) 20:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The obvious reason we don't use "King Charles III of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth, Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland" is that it's needlessly long and not WP:CONCISE. Not sure how it was decided that he would get Charles III page over the others who share that title however.

I agree about removing the weird special status of British peers page titles in general although there might be a lot of places where it's useful for disambiguation. D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:21, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Your comment about Charles appeared to be framed as though based on a different consideration from the one I'm making but it isn't. Shreela Flather, Baroness Flather is less voluminously a violation of WP:CONCISE but qualitatively it's equally a violation. Largoplazo (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Charles III isn't the Duke of Cornwall. He isn't King of the Commonwealth. Did you have a good lunch? DuncanHill (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with you, "Shreela Flather, Baroness Flather" would be better as just "Shreela Flather". The British peerage naming convention conflicts with WP:CONCISE D1551D3N7 (talk) 09:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Names with peerage titles aren’t complicated, and anyone with a basic understanding should be able to grasp them, so I believe the convention aligns well with WP:CONCISE. While life peers' pages should be changed (as they are politicians recognised by their names), articles about hereditary peers known by their titles should be maintained as they are. Daniel Plumber (talk) 10:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you need to reread the policy, its not about the complexity of the naming convention. No one is saying "State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" is complicated or hard to understand but its not concise. In the Shreela Flather example there's no reason not to use the shorter title.

Regarding hereditary peers we could just use the WP:COMMONAME policy and if they are indeed commonly known by their title it would be kept, I don't think we need a blanket rule saying all hereditary peer pages must have the honorifics in the title. D1551D3N7 (talk) 11:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree with much of what you said. However, the issue is that most hereditary peers are known by their titles, which is why their biographies are noted as such. There are exceptions, like former British PM Harold Macmillan, Earl of Stockton, who is often referred to by his political role instead of his title, in line with WP:COMMONNAME. Nonetheless, this doesn't reflect the general situation, where the majority of hereditary peers are indeed known primarily by their titles.

If peerage titles were to be removed from biographies' titles, in my opinion it should be applied to life peers only, with note to hereditary peers in special circumstances. Daniel Plumber (talk) 11:27, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

To pick a nit, the British king has none of those other titles; they are held by his heir apparent (if any). Better examples include the kings of Spain, the Netherlands, and probably Denmark. —Tamfang (talk) 23:54, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Real honours are intended to take social precedence over academic titles in real life. How can an honour awarded for a recipient's services for the nation, something not everyone can achieve, be compared to standard academic nominals (like Dr. or PhD), which are accessible to many well-educated individuals? It seems quite absurd. Daniel Plumber (talk) 00:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Most people with titles in the British peerage system are not awarded them for achievement, they are hereditary and do not represent "services for the nation" but in fact an archaic class system. In comparison academic titles must be achieved through long academic studies, not simply being born into a certain family or being good friends with people in "high society". D1551D3N7 (talk) 11:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Hereditary peers still take social precedence over academics, regardless of their titles being "archaic" or not. How can you be sure that a doctor of philosophy is indeed more honourable than a person who is raised and behaves gently among their peers? Daniel Plumber (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

It isn't for Wikipedia to care that a person "is raised and behaves gently among their peers". Largoplazo (talk) 12:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

My points still stand - peerages have social status higher than academic titles and peers who are academics tend to be addressed by their peerage titles instead. That is simply an undeniable truth. Daniel Plumber (talk) 12:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

P.S. This is just me expressing my opinion, not something that can be counted as contention. Daniel Plumber (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I seriously doubt your "undeniable truth" that peerage has such an elevated social status any more. Perhaps it is true in the UK (although I get the impression that this is no longer the case in most circles there either, and that a number of scandals on the one hand and advancing civilization and individualism on the other hand have severely undermined the high regard in which peers were held on account of their birth), but in many other countries no one cares if you are by inheritance a marquess or a viscount. Fram (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I think we all know this is about Britain only and doesn’t involve other countries.

You are correct that social precedence isn’t really a thing anymore. However, as everyone may know (and I don’t think anyone has asked), hereditary peers (and, although no one has asked, life peers are automatically entitled to it) have the right to sit in the House of Lords, albeit in a trivial way, by being one of the 90 elected peers. This is enough to place a peer higher in society than non-political commoners. Daniel Plumber (talk) 13:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I see it as an artifact of this being the English Wikipedia—while English is a global language, it definitely came from somewhere in particular. Remsense ‥ 论 21:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

While the language originated in England Wikipedia is a global project and this could be an example of Anglo-American bias. D1551D3N7 (talk) 21:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a worldwide endeavor and its international scope is manifest throughout its guidelines and articles. That isn't even a viable explanation, let alone a justification. Largoplazo (talk) 23:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it is a partial explanation; I did not put it forward as a justification. Remsense ‥ 论 23:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

The general naming convention contains this exception to the standard naming format: "When the subject is best known by a description, and not by a name, use it."

To me this seems more than sufficient to deal with all titles of nobilities, whether English peerages, Scottish Barons or Continental or international nobility. This will allow a usage that is in line with how most users will be searching for information. A peer, a baron or any other noble commonly known by his personal name, without title or territorial designation, should be listed under his personal name and the title mentioned in the article along with other relevant information. On the other hand any article on a noble commonly known by his title, should be in that title.

Removing the special policy on British peers and adapting the standard naming policy, including the above exception, would resolve the various discussions about different types of noble titles, ensure there is no Anglocentric bias and keep a single unified policy for people of all nationalities. It would allow current non-standard title variations to adopt the most common style from the cited sources (Peter Smith, Baron of Somewhere / Peter Smith / Baron of Somewhere &c). Charliez (talk) 23:44, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

the guidelines already cover european nobility:

• Treat other European nobility like British nobility above, adapting for local circumstances; thus Philippe II, Duke of Orléans. For claimants to titles which have been suppressed, as with the dukes of Bavaria, follow the general article titling policy.
• Other names and titles, if any, should appear in the first paragraph of the article so they can be searched for.

Kellycrak88 (talk) 12:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I think you have proved my point about the Anglocentric bias here on WP...

-For articles on British peers here are the very detailed rules to follow: (...)

-For the rest of the world, just do something similar if it fits Charliez (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

well didn't England rule the world, the sun never sets on the british empire, and all that - rule Britannia - why not on on Wikipedia? ;) After all the main victory for England was imposing the English language on all the colonies and the rest of the world, Gaelic was suppressed in Ireland and Scotland, look at Europe today what's the European language, English ;) and I have no problem with the status quo to be honest as it here on Wikipedia we're better for it Kellycrak88 (talk) 13:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

This has come up so many times. The simple answer is that peers are generally known by their titles, not by their personal names (unless, as noted above, they became famous under their personal name). Take this chap, for example: Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury: thrice British Prime Minister. He is universally known as "Lord Salisbury", or else more formally as "the Marquess of Salisbury". If you started talking about "Robert Gascoyne-Cecil" no one except the most knowledgeable of history buffs would have the faintest idea who you were talking about. Our normal naming conventions would say "great, so his article can be Lord Salisbury". But then what do we do with his father, Lord Salisbury? Or his son, Lord Salisbury? Or any of the other Marquesses or Earls of Salisbury, all of whom are best known simply as "Lord Salisbury"? Normal disambiguation isn't very helpful because most of them were politicians, and you'd probably end up with lots of dates of birth and death, which is clunky and difficult to search for. And inserting the numeral of their title (e.g. 3rd Marquess of Salisbury) isn't an answer either, because although it would work for the Salisburys, many titles have gone through many creations: for example, there have been nine men who have been "1st Earl of Kent". And before it's suggested, leaving out the title altogether, even if it resulted in names that meant anything to anyone (which it usually wouldn't), would also cause huge problems because these families tend to reuse names: "Robert Gascoyne-Cecil" could be any of the 3rd, 5th, 6th or 7th Marquesses of Salisbury, and "James Cecil" could be any of the 3rd to 6th Earls of Salisbury or the 1st Marquess of Salisbury. These are all notable individuals with WP articles. So a very long time ago it was decided to use the style that is generally adopted by encyclopedias, which is to list both personal name and title. It has avoided problems for many years, and the only objection ever seems to come from non-British editors who simply don't understand how these titles work in reality. Proteus (Talk) 16:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the historical background. It's always useful to understand why the guidelines have ended up the way they are.

My personal opinion is, however, that these circumstances are covered by the regular exceptions to the general naming convention: "When the subject is best known by a description, and not by a name, use it." Perhaps the standard naming convention has changed since the original discussion on peers.

If we do believe that nobility requires a special naming convention for one reason or another, then the wording at least should be changed to something without an Anglocentric bias. Rather than "For Peers use XYZ" and then just a statement "for non-British nobles" use the same, we should have a naming convention saying "for holders of noble titles use XYZ". Charliez (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Proteus gives an excellent explanation. The use of these rules for article titles has nothing to do with whether the people in question are somehow intrinsically meritorious or honorable: it's because works of reference centuries ago had to deal with the problem of what we on Wikipedia call "disambiguation" in distinguishing peers, and that system has become an established convention among encyclopedias and other works of reference. (See, e.g., treatments in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.) In general, we should be conforming to external conventions like that rather than inventing our own.

I agree that the current guidelines conform with the spirit of the general naming convention, but I would oppose dismantling them. They provide useful guidance for editors unfamiliar with the subject matter. Making our tools less useful so they can appear equitable does not further the purpose of the encyclopedia. I do agree that the treatment of other European nobility in "Other cases" is currently not very useful; the first sentence is tantamount to "Treat European nobility like British nobility, except not," which is worthless. It would be useful to survey our existing practice, and look at external works of reference, to see if we can formulate some general principles. (e.g., in my experience, our articles on holders of Spanish titles frequently, though not always, use ordinals 1st, 2nd, and so forth like the British peerage, while French and German/Imperial titles either don't use them, particularly for individuals with well-defined surnames, or use Roman numerals for ordinals. Given that we have a large, stable body of articles, I suggest being very cautious and deliberate about changes: trying to achieve perfect consistency may cause more disruption that it's worth. For instance, in treating French nobility, whether to use the French or the Anglicized version of the personal name (Philip vs Philippe) and the title (Duke of Orleans vs duc d'Orleans) probably can't be made consistent across both medieval and modern periods. Choess (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I imagine what would happen, Proteus, is that where there are several articles on people sharing the same name, we would do what we've always done - a disambiguation page, such as that at John Smith, and individual articles named following the usual disambiguation naming conventions, and the world would continue on. 99.999% of readers won't notice, and of the 0.001% that do, half will think it an improvement. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

To answer the OP - there is none. It's a silly practice, that should never have been introduced or entertained. WP:COMMONNAME. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)