Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

Proposal for a Leeds United task force

Hi, all. If you are interested in helping to improve coverage of articles related to Leeds United, please consider joining a proposed task force. I've created a pilot page which illustrates some objectives. Any questions, please ask. Thank you. PearlyGigs (talk) 09:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

As someone who has been heavily involved in the Manchester United task force over the years, I'll say that I doubt a Leeds United task force would get sufficient membership to warrant creation. I suggest you create to-do lists in your own userspace. What would creating a task force actually help you to do that you can't do without one? – PeeJay 17:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with PeeJay, this project is a task force, if you ever need help with something just ask here. Everyone else has different clubs, but overall, a lot of people have resources that can help you if you're looking for something. Govvy (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

List of foreign footballers in the Persian Gulf Pro League

Is this normal? I've never seen a list of foreigners in the Premier League, seems wrong somehow. Govvy (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It's at List of foreign Premier League players. There are loads of such articles -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Blimey, that Premier League one is outdated, I don't know, seems pointless to me, because the list would be off the chart and paradoxical. Govvy (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

It has no sources at all (as does its partner 1920-2000 one) and would almost certainly be deleted at AfD unless such a source exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's highly unlikely that a single source exists listing all foreign PL players for its entire 30+ year history, so you'd potentially be looking at individually sourcing well over 2500 players, a number which is of course going to continue to balloon given that dozens of new foreign players join the PL every season..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually I stand corrected, the one and only source in the article does actually allow users to bring up all PL players of any given nationality using filters. There's probably still the question of whether we need an article listing nearly 3000 players.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Would be perfectly fine with deleting these for every league. They're mostly just trivia- especially for large leagues like the Premier League where a large percentage of players are foreign. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I feel like for some leagues, such as the Premier League, where foreign players are a large percentage and there are no (afaik?) restrictions on foreign players, there isn't much point to such an article. However, there are many smaller leagues which have restrictions on number of foreign players and then such pages are more managable and also more notable. --SuperJew (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention the constant need to maintain these lists, shall we have a quick consensus, on who is for deleting, to start with List of foreign Premier League players? Govvy (talk) 10:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Is that any different than the constant need to maintain squad lists (both in club articles and in the navboxes)? I don't disagree about the need, but I don't think it is a relevant consideration if to keep or delete. --SuperJew (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Jack Clarke (footballer, born 2000) stats?

They don't much up with soccerway however I think they match up with soccerbase, maybe someone who is better with stats can double check its all okay. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 10:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's just that Soccerway include playoffs in with regular season matches, but Soccerbase don't and neither does Wikipedia. The stats look OK to me. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

k, don't know why soccerway does that, cheer Struway. Govvy (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a common problem. For players outside the UK, I often use worldfootball.net to differentiate play-off appearances. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Soccerway is arguably the most reliable source overall since it has reports on basically all the games that are accurate, but yeah they tend to mush stuff up and there are occasionally some small errors. In leagues where there are play-offs, I always look up the league season and see what the play-offs games were and then look to see if the player played in those games. Checking out other sources is a good option too-- Soccerbase, I like. WorldFootball.net is often erroneous for obscure players but for players that are well-document, it's good. FootballDatabase.eu can be an option too although I'm not sure how accurate it is, it's hit or miss. Paul Vaurie (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. FootballDatabase.eu is on our list of deprecated sources at WP:WPFLINKSNO. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Swedish club names

I was prompted to look up Gunnar Gren a few days ago and was frustrated by the state of the article, I did not read long before being met with the line 'He made his Allsvenskan debut on 1 May 1938 against Malmö, which resulted in a scoreless draw.'

As a reader, I have no idea which Malmö club it was Gunnar Gren made his debut against in 1938 without clicking the link unless I happen to know which Malmö club played in the same series as Gårda BK in 1938, a degree of knowledge that it is very ambitious to expect from any reader. Were they in the same series as Malmö FF, IFK Malmö or Malmö BI? I have no idea, and neither will any other reader.

As it turns out the article used to specify that it was Malmö FF Gren debuted against, but someone has recently shortened all the Swedish club names in the article, creating the ambiguity.

Now, I could just edit that line in the Gunnar Gren article and move on, but this is a persistent issue I have come across in multiple articles about Swedish football, where one or a small number of editors shorten Swedish club names from the formal and unambiguous full name to the ambiguous and informal short name, for example someone recently edited the article on Jimmy Thelin to change all mentions of Jönköpings Södra IF from the specific and formal name to the non-specific (and arguably incorrect) 'Jönköping'.

These edits mostly seem to be made by one or a small number of editors with no knowledge of the Swedish language and little or no contextual knowledge about Swedish football (shortening the names without removing the possessive s at the end of many of them, like shortening Djurgårdens IF to 'Djurgårdens' instead of Djurgården, is a dead give-away that the person(s) making these edits does not have even a very basic understanding of Swedish)

Swedish football clubs do not 'own' location names, referring to Malmö FF as just 'Malmö', like in the Gunnar Gren article that sparked this complaint, is not only confusing to the reader but also an expression of the biases of the editor. Malmö FF, IFK Malmö, Malmö City FC and historical clubs like Malmö BI all have equal claim to the name of the city.

To make a comparison with English football, talking about Malmö FF as 'Malmö' is akin to talking about Manchester City as Manchester or Sheffield United as Sheffield, it works in informal contexts where other contextual cues makes it clear which club is being referred to, like in a conversation with friends or during a match broadcast, in formal contexts it is confusing and biased, fans of Manchester United and Sheffield Wednesday are bound to take offence. It is absolutely not acceptable in an encyclopaedic context where clarity and neutrality is important.

Malmö is not a unique case, in fact it is the norm in Swedish football. 'Göteborg' can refer to IFK Göteborg, but also to women's club Göteborg FC, or Göteborgs FF, occasionally to GAIS, and to historic clubs like Göteborgs IK or Göteborgs AIK, who Gunnar Gren played for. Beyond that, there are three different clubs named Trelleborg, three different clubs from Eskilstuna with the city in their name have played in Allsvenskan, you cannot talk about GIF Sundsvall as Sundsvall or Kalmar FF as Kalmar without getting angry hate mail from IFK Sundsvall and Kalmar AIK supporters and then there is the confusing, frustrating mess that is Karlstad football and countless other examples.

You cannot choose who gets to be 'Malmö' in the article on Allsvenskan in 1959, who gets to be 'Skövde' in the article about Sargon Abraham or who gets to be 'Karlstad' in the article on 2024 Ettan without engaging in some form of personal bias.

Now, some Swedish football clubs do have truly unique short names, either because they come from a very small town like Mjällby AIF, are named after a neighbourhood like Örgryte IS, an object from mythology like IK Sleipner or a specific geographical feature like Utsiktens BK, but for the sake of consistency I argue that the long name should always be used. It is simply the solution that asks the least from both editors and readers.

I therefore propose that:

- Infoboxes, article headers and first mentions in article texts and similar always use the long club names for Swedish clubs, as has been the norm in articles about Swedish football

- Club articles be amended to make note that 'Malmö', 'Göteborg', 'Jönköping' etc. is informal and non-specific language

91.128.201.156 (talk) 22:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Noted. Seasider53 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I've fixed some of the links on the article you questioned, I can understand where you're coming from, because the one that bothers me is when people remove the AC from AC Milan in infoboxes or in the article. Do there forget there is Inter Milan also?? Govvy (talk) 10:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to tag users into these conversations? The person who made the edits on the Gunnar Gren and the Jimmy Thelin article is now make the same edits on the Sven-Göran Eriksson article ¨¨¨¨ 91.128.201.156 (talk) 12:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@LightingMan01. See this, this and this edit. SparklessPlug (talk | contribs) 13:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I doubt they will responding, judging by their nuking of their talk page whenever the they are left a message. Seasider53 (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Robbie Fowler

Robbie Fowler has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)