Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 November 14

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November 14

Is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol?

Y'all know how it's illegal in Canada and USA to sell alcohol to minors 'ight? But is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol if someone accidentally sells it to him or her? If dem coppers find out, will they charge the minor or just the seller? Hustle (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK AFAIK, the law is constructed such that it is illegal to sell alcohol to a minor. The miner in the transaction has not of itself committed an illegal act. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's nearly impossible to say what the case is "in the US" because each state has its own laws regarding alchohol. But in most places I've lived, I am almost positive that selling to a minor is verboten. --LarryMac | Talk 01:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In many U.S. states it is illegal to be a "minor in possession" of alcoholic bevs, exclusive of the crime of selling or otherwise providing alcohol to a minor. Here is a Washington state website: [1]. In some Christian churches minors get to drink a bit of alcohol as part of the Eucharist. Sometimes parents give minors alcohol with a meal, and I'm not sure how legal that is in various jurisdictions. This is a complex legal question and we cannot provide legal advice. Edison (talk) 01:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? That's not a request for legal advice; it's a question of what the laws are. Quite different. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? Signs at bars usually say it's illegal for a minor to attempt to buy alcohol, in my experience.AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed different from state to state. For example, in Delaware, where I went to college, it was illegal for a minor to enter a liquor store at all. I have several friends who were arrested and have a misdemeanor on their records for merely being inside a liquor store while under 21. In other states, there are vastly different laws. In some U.S. states, for example, all hard liquor (i.e. everything except wine and beer) is sold through state owned "ABC" stores; in other states hard liquor is regulated but sold through liscenced private stores, and in others you can buy hard liquor at the 7-11. Remember, everyone, the phrase "In the U.S." is pretty useless with regards to laws; most laws and regulations are managed on a state-by-state basis. It is a product of the federal nature of the U.S. See federalism. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Defining whether something is legal or illegal always requires giving legal advice. 'Law' is just the collection of norms, and needn't be codified by a legislative body. To determine if something is legal or illegal requires interpretation of statutory laws, recorded precedents and even, when no such things exist, the interpretation of "understood social norms." I don't mean to get technical about it, but I think people often forget about this sort of thinking. Lawyers have lots of work to do.NByz (talk) 03:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Under any understanding of the word "law" by any person who is NOT a lawyer, it means "written statutes as passed by the government". Any finer shades of meaning are generally taken to be obfuscations by lawyers, and not in the general idea of questions. When I ask "what is the law about" what I am asking is "What has the government written down in the books that say I can..." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I just meant that as a more general answer to the "Is x illegal or not?" questions that often come up 'round here. If someone asks if something is legal or not and someone else tells them that it's not statutorily illegal, but then some case law or regional precedent exists that allows someone (the "Crown" or Attorney General etc.) to press charges successfully, they'll be like "Hey! What gives chet?"

If some kid was buying or possessing tons of booze in my county, and the parents weren't doing anything about it and the source was somehow protected or unknown, I'd find some charge to lay... some way get it in front of a judge.NByz (talk) 07:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

More "minor in possession laws references in U.S. states: Minor in Possession , Colorado: [2] . Michigan: [3] , Massachusetts: [4] , California: [5] , Alabama: [6] , Oregon: [7] , Arkansas: [8]. For a general reference, see the blacklisted article at ezinearticles.com/?Minor-in-Possession-of-Alcohol-by-Consumption&id=1075300. Edison (talk) 06:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The impression I get from Liquor stores caught in underage-buying sting, Six Allston liquor stores busted in sting and Montgomery's Underage `Sting' Has Liquor Sellers Reeling is that it's up to the retailer to check and if they don't they will be charged. Strange though the underage sting seemed to get mor hits from Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In Michigan, we had the situation we 19- and 20-year olds could go over to Canada to drink legally and come back home and be charged for MIP for having alcohol in their bloodstream. The court found that the statute's definition of "alcoholic liquor" included the words "which are fit for use for beverage purposes" and slightly alcoholic blood didn't fit that definition.[9] Rmhermen (talk) 14:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Archie Van Winkle

In your write-up of this MOH winner, you should include the fact that there is a monument to him in Juneau, AK —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhysphillips (talk • contribs) 03:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. You have as much ability to add this information as anyone. You should also cite a source where this information can be found, to verify that it is true. But you are quite invited to fix it yourself. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article on Archie Van Winkle already mentions the monument, and has done since the day it was created. FiggyBee (talk) 05:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article says "A bullet shattered his arm and an enemy hand grenade exploded against his chest." I am calling B.S or a failure to understand the nature of hand grenades. Edison (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Call BS if you like, but that seems to be what the citation says... FiggyBee (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The citation [10] does read a bit different. ...he rushed through 40 yards of fierce enemy fire to reunite his troops despite an elbow wound which rendered 1 of his arms totally useless. Severely wounded a second time when a direct hit in the chest from a hostile handgrenade caused serious and painful wounds... A hit from a handgrenade = shrapnel from the grenade hit him. A grenade exploding against his chest = the grenade was next to his chest when it exploded. I suggest copying out the citation text. (I don't think they are copyrighted.)76.97.245.5 (talk) 12:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The full citation is already in the article. FiggyBee (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The Matrix and Religion

Is it true that there is a religion based on the movie The Matrix? 206.188.60.177 (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, according to the second paragraph of The Matrix (series)#Reputation and influence? Also check out the references in that article. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(Every once in awhile someone comes on here and asks questions like this with the hope and intention of someone creating an article on the subject or legitimating their creation of an article on the subject. Such articles have been deleted many times, and the topic is at the moment ghettoized as a small section of the general Matrix series article. Just giving some backstory...) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And it's usually someone from the 206.188.*.* range. [11] (Although, someone from 71.2??.*.* seems to ask from time to time, as well. [12]) APL (talk) 04:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance at this user's edit history makes it clear that we have the same troll. SteveBaker (talk) 19:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey, bub, don't be so quick to call a "troll." S/he/it seems (to me) like s/he/it's interested, that's all. flaminglawyer^cneverforget 22:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Mission row extension

What does mission row extension mean?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.19.240.200 (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm out of my depth here, but no matter – there's Mission Row, a street in Kolkota/Calcutta, and Mission Row Extension information is found here[13]. According to the article, it is/was the centre of various motor vehicle industries: “The motor spare parts business began here in 1958-59. Ninety per cent dealers opened shop here,”... Julia Rossi (talk) 09:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Where? In California it might be short for an extension to a mission style row house or an extension to a row of mission style houses. If you ask for a definition it helps if you give us some context. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Spending on advertising

I've heard that the correlation between spending on advertising and sales is lead by sales (that is, that sales rise before advertising spending rises) but since all this economic turmoil I've noticed more adverts from businesses that usually advertise infrequently. Have companies for which advertising is a significant expenditure lowered costs (as would be expected from past behaviour due to decreased custom) while other companies have decided to undergo advertising campaigns? Is there an explanation for this? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks 86.7.238.145 (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Advertising and sales go hand in hand rather i.e it is established as one important component of the pre production processes but though your statement contradicts it can hold true for little mushrooming companies which do not have much revinue to spend in advertising which is later leveraged from the sales and profits earned to advertise further hence their graphs of sales and advertising go parallel, which do not ideally happen for the large established companies as a little less or more spending woulfd not effect their existance. May hold otherwise for companies with large manufacturing units and product release to coincide with the global meltdown or recession like this time they have no choice but to still be hopeful to atleast be able to rech the masses to introduce a product.this happens when the forcasting machenism is not effective within the company.Vikram79 (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the answer may be in who decides what a company does and how flexible the internal structure is. In good times, Marketing departments are not seen as a "cost" department, but rather as a "revenue" factor, because their task is to bring in sales. (Tech, R&D and After Sales Service on the other hand are always considered "cost".) So Marketing managers usually have a lot of power and influence in executive boards. When times get lean executive boards decide to cut costs and tend to do that in the departments they consider "cost". Marketing departments throw themselves into overdrive to show that they can do what they are said to do (i.e. increase sales). Nicely plotted graphs will convince the other board members to increase spending on advertising, to keep sales at least stable. If the economy picks up again (as it usually does) after a while Marketing will get all the credit for stable/ increased sales. In case the company cut vital positions in their "cost" departments and can not recover from that loss, no one will blame them for putting all their money in advertising (current Apple vs Vista ads non-withstanding).76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Who fixes foreign currency exchange rates - and how?

I bought some Euros a couple of weeks ago for a winter trip to Spain and I got 1.25 Euros to the British Pound. Last week the rate fell to about 1.19, and today it stands at 1.13 (all at tourist rates). So is someone trying to tell me that the British economy fell by about 10% in 2 weeks compared with the rest of Europe, when the Irish, Spanish, Greek, German and other Eurozone economies are in a mess? I find that such a collapse is so hard to believe so any enlightenment will be gratefully received. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Currency exchange rates are driven by what the market will bear. I personally don't buy into the notion that a market change has a one-to-one correspondence with a real world change (your 10% fall example), though opinions as to what the correspondence actually is vary wildly. — Lomn 16:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote "In the short term the markets are a voting machine, in the long term they are a weigh machine" comes to mind. You are assessing a current price that changes by the second against a measure that doesn't. If a listed company's share price increases 20% it doesn't mean its output has increaesed by 20%, it doesn't mean the company will make 20% more profit, it is an indication of growing confidence in that share. The buyers are factoring in vast amounts of information (or just following the herd/taking a punt). The same is true of currency markets. The change is not necessarily related to real-change in the currency (or stock) so much as pricing in of knowledge, assumptions, factors etc. ny156uk (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

A more direct answer is that the pound sterling used to be a favorite of investors because UK interest rates were higher than in the euro zone, United States, Japan or Switzerland. Investors could borrow a foreign currency at a low interest rate and invest in Sterling to earn a higher interest rate (plus a good chance of Sterling rising as others did the same). This is known as the carry trade. The Bank of England has signalled its intention to cut interest rates and recently did so dramatically. The Bank of England's base interest rate is no longer much higher than those of competing currencies. It is now slightly lower than the discount rate for the euro. As a result, carry trades that yielded a profit now generate losses. Furthermore, the Bank of England has signalled an intention to cut rates further. This has led investors to liquidate their Sterling investments, selling Sterling to repurchase the currency in which they borrowed money to repay loans in order to cut their losses. The further Sterling drops, the more investors are motivated to cut their losses. It is something of a vicious cycle, and it reveals little about the relative health of the British versus the euro-zone economies. Marco polo (talk) 04:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Selling strategy

I have recently been interviewed to take charge of the sales bit of a telecom firm as a manager though, to one far flung areas, as these areas are predominently occupied by business families or the farmers, which in percentile is 20-80 % approx. Are there any strategy to go about reachng the masses to have them buy this product? i do also have a hand in the marketing and sales department to work to the benefit of the project.any "out of the book" comment would be appreciated greatly.Vikram79 (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you are trying to sell phone services to (mostly) farmers, which means convincing them to switch from their old company. I would imagine farmers would need to communicate to suppliers and customers quite some distance away, so some plan without individual long distance charges for each of these calls might be in order, perhaps with a higher monthly charge instead. Farmers also tend to have a rather uneven income throughout the year, with most of it coming in at harvest time. Thus, a plan that only requires one yearly payment, after harvest time, might be a good selling point. Finally, if you could offer a free number where they can call in and punch in a code to get relevant current commodity prices (corn, wheat, etc.), that might be a nice gimmick, too.

For the business/family portion of the market, the first item (no long distance fees per call), would also be important, as they will likely also need to communicate with employers, stores, etc., at long distances, as well. One of your biggest challenges will be to convince the potential customers that they will get the same quick repairs as they currently do, with a new provider. For those in isolated communities, especially those which lack cell phone towers to provide a back-up, land lines are absolutely essential. Thus, when the lines go down those people are totally isolated until they are fixed. Another problem you are likely to encounter is that people in those communities will be very reluctant to change. You might want to offer free or very low cost service to, say, the local school or church, to help convince the residents that you offer a good service and are reliable and part of the community. StuRat (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There are two questions that might influence what strategies you can employ. Where are we talking. and What does the competition offer. If they offer free long distance with a higher monthly base rate, then you'd have to offer s.th. else to convince people to switch. Other factors like e.g. who owns the lines (cables) or how much would it cost to put in new satellite links and a local network also come into play. "telecom" is a broad description. It describes a company that sells Voip just like one that offers a whole range of products to compete with the likes of AT&T or Telefonica. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 11:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Free Spam

Is there a place where I can sign-up my e-mail address to receive bulk spam mail? Acceptable (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Try posting the email here for screen scrapers to see maybe? Also try clicking on banner ads and signing up for things like free credit checks or whatnot... You could always respond to some spam mail you get on another address with your spam one by sending a one word email or the like so they will know your address is active. Just be wary of malware. Try googling for mailing list signups and signing up to as many as you can find. This person tried to get as much spam as he could for an experiment—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.15.23 (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If you respond to spam by telling them to stop sending it to you, that will assure the sender that the address they reached is a "live one" and they are likely to increase the amount of spam you receive and sell your name to other spammers. Edison (talk) 23:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are strategies that will increase the amount of spam you'll get - and others have indicated some of them. But there isn't a single place to sign up to get the stuff. Companies that specialise in spam-elimination use honeypot accounts that they know will never receive any real mail to collect spam messages. SteveBaker (talk) 06:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This discuss what letter of the alphabet to choose when trying to attract spam or perceived spam. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Side note: If you're planning to prank someone by getting them onto spam lists, be prepared for them to be annoyed. :) Steewi (talk) 00:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

'Shillong'

Hi all, is there a reason why Shillong is called the Rock Capital of India...Vikram79 (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This should help you out. Tomdobb (talk) 20:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Chickens and there eggs

what came first, the chicen or the egg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.111.45 (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The egg, by a very long time indeed. Dinosaurs had eggs. Algebraist 22:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's usually assumed that the question refers to chicken eggs, in which case the answer depends on your definitions. It probably doesn't surprise anyone that we have an article on subject: Chicken or the egg. --Tango (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

and the science prize goes to Algebraist here[14] though there are other views. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are indeed several ways to constrain the question to make it hard to answer. If you change it to "Which came first: the chicken or the chicken-egg?" - then you can't answer it. But if you don't change the question - which only mentions an egg - without restrictions - then you have to say this:

• At some point in the past there were no chickens - they had not yet evolved.
• Sometime later there were chickens - which evolved from some other kind of bird (a "proto-chicken").
• We may safely assume that proto-chickens laid eggs.
• So when the first bird that had the appropriate genetic makeup to be called a "chicken" appeared, it hatched from an egg laid by a proto-chicken.
• However - since we're NOT modifying the question - then the very first creature that we'd formally define as "a chicken" definitely hatched from an egg. It wasn't a "chicken egg" because it was laid by a proto-chicken...but that's OK because the question does not mention that restriction.

So - the egg came first - no question. It's not difficult or ambiguous.

SteveBaker (talk) 06:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

So you've contradicted yourself in saying that the constrained version is unanswerable: according to your sequence of events, the chicken came first, out of a proto-chicken egg, then later came a chicken egg. I note that when thinking in terms of evolution, this question is an example of the Sorites paradox. --Sean 17:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction. The constrained version is problematic because the definition of "chicken egg" is fuzzy. Is it an egg laid by a chicken or an egg from which a chicken may hatch? It's also pretty likely that whatever gene had to appear in order to change a proto-chicken into a chicken had no material effect on the eggs produced by that animal...in that case the eggs that proto-chickens and chickens laid might be identical in every regard. But the question isn't constrained - so it doesn't matter. SteveBaker (talk) 19:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you have to pin down the definition of "chicken egg" - is it an egg that came from a chicken, or an egg that will produce a chicken. You can then apply the logic above which gives you your answer ('chicken' and 'egg', in that order). DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:19, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Where does the Easter Bunny come into the picture? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think everyone's agreed that both the chicken and the egg came before the Easter Bunny. FiggyBee (talk) 00:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny represents a known mechanism for creating an egg without a chicken. Occam's Razor forces us to consider that the Easter Bunny came first. This prevents us from having to "multiply entities" by relying on an unevidenced "proto-chicken". APL (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny is conclusive evidence against evolution? The creationists will be thrilled! :) --Tango (talk) 14:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure - any creature that encases it's young in chocolate eggshells and abandons them in places where small human children may predate on them is not going to survive without an intelligent designer helping them along. Evolution is busted. SteveBaker (talk) 02:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

The Easter Bunny is dead. Gwinva (talk) 02:53, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Creationists have no problem. The book says that God created the animals, not the eggs. Phil Burnstein (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Party Bus

Okay, so a couple of my friends and I have decided that it would be awesome and very convenient (don't ask why) if we had some type of bus or large van. After searching around craigslist, we came across this. It looks pretty good, and we've also talked to the owner top establish it is in good running condition and that we're interested in buying it.

My question has two parts. The first is what would be the real value of said vehicle? I asked the owner how he came to his asking price of $1500, and he said he just estimated (it has approximately 150,000 miles on it). Bluebook doesn't have an entry for a vehicle like that to my knowledge after a quick search...so I'm asking you guys what you think it would be worth.

Secondly, we come to the actual purchase. I'M NOT ASKING FOR LEGAL ADVICE. All of my friends as well as myself are under 18, which presents a problem as far as I'm aware due to our age. As far as I know, none of us can legally purchase this vehicle because we're minors, so we are planning to get one of our parents to hold the title and do the signing, etc.. So I'm curious about possible solutions to the insurance problem. I think that Wisconsin requires some form of basic/minimal insurance by law, but I don't know. What possible solutions are there to this problem of insurance? We're all new to the real world so we are not very well versed with this, a good answer here may teach all of us a valuable life lesson and help secure our future ;-). But I wouldn't expect a premium to be too high on a bus like that, so let's pretend cost is not an issue. Thanks for the help and suggestions! --71.117.41.17 (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about valuing such a vehicle, much less about insurance costs where you are - but I do know that you are correct in describing yourselves as "not very well versed" when it comes to the subject of insurance versus vehicle value. You see, it has far less to do with the value of the vehicle concerned than the risk that YOU pose to other vehicles, property, and people. Where I live in the UK we see oodles of young drivers who have just passed their driving test (age 17 in the UK) who then go out and buy a "Banger" for a couple of hundred pounds sterling; they then do a home paint and chrome job on it for another couple of hundred pounds or so; and then they approach an insurance company who will only offer "Third-Party, Fire and Theft cover", which basically covers the other person's car but not yours regardless of who caused the accident. Of course, if the other person DID cause the accident you would have a claim on their insurance but your own car would be out of action or unrepaired until that claim was settled. And at 17 with no driving experience behind them, such minimal cover will cost well over £1000. Which goes towards explaining why about 10% of all British cars are on the roads without ANY insurance. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 23:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, at age 18 getting minimal insurance for my absolute turdmobile of a car would have cost me about £1050. At age 23 it's down to £280. Inexperienced drivers (and most distinctly inexperienced male drivers) cause a huge proportion of accidents and insurance companies reflect that. ~ mazca ^t|c 00:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Auto insurance comes in two major varieties: insurance against loss or damage to the vehicle, and insurance against other people suing you after an accident. You probably don't want to insure the bus against loss, but you'll want as much liability insurance as you can afford.

The traditional solution to the insurance problem is to add your bus to your parents' insurance, with you listed as a driver. The insurance bill will usually list how much of the bill is for which vehicle, so you pay your parents for the insurance on your vehicle, and then they pay the full bill to the insurance company. Since you're under 25, insurance isn't going to be cheap. --Carnildo (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that you check into your states laws with respect to the class of drivers licence required for a multi-seat vehicle. You may be required to have some sort of taxi/chauffer licence. In Northern Canada I need a class 5 to drive a regular vehicle but a class 4 to drive a 15 seat school bus or a taxi and a class 2 to drive the 40 seat bus. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please verify the following info using a knowledgeable source before acting on it. As I suspected "location, location" makes all the difference. If I read this page correctly it's not the auto that gets insured in Wisconsin, but the driver [15]. If the auto is bought by one of your parents then you as a family member are covered under their liability insurance, your friends are covered if your parents permit them to use their vehicle. (For safety sake I would put a written permit with the insurance details in the glove compartment.) Premiums are based on how much of the bill for an injured party the insurance will pay in case you have an accident. (Not on the value of your vehicle.) In general your parents will have to pay for whatever portion of the bill the insurance doesn't cover. If they prove they can't because they are broke there's something called uninsured driver coverage. Ask s.o. how that works. As far as the bus is concerned: "...Collision premiums are based on the make and model year of your car. You should evaluate the current market value of your car and your ability to afford a similar car should it be destroyed before you purchase this coverage. You may not need this coverage if your car has decreased in value or if you can afford to replace it." Vehicle price: Wisconsin doesn't exactly have an arid climate, so rust is an issue. If non of your parents is auto savvy, get a workshop to have a look at the vehicle before you take it. (Either have the sellers cover the cost or split the bill.) The guys in the ad don't strike me as people who tended to such things as transmission fluid and filter changes. The fact that they didn't paint it (recently) is actually more reassuring than if they had, because you can see what would otherwise have been covered. [16] [17] These sites should give you some basis for negotiating a price. (Sounds a bit high by comparison. You'll have to decide how much value you place on the bus modifications.) Keep in mind that with a used car the purchase price is not the final price. You will have to budget repairs. The transmission may still be the first one, which means it may or may not have some miles of life left. It has reached an age where the way it has been treated can mean it has another 50,000 left or is way past due for rebuilding. Another things to keep an eye on with a van is your battery. Make sure the dealer checks the connecting points of the bus body and the frame. Since it doesn't sound like you want to start taking up van maintenance as your new hobbies, nor have a lot of buddies / parenting bodies that are car savvy, you'll have to get everything done by a workshop. That can get expensive in a hurry. On the other hand it doesn't sound as though you will have to rely on this vehicle as your only mmeans of transportation. So if you do encounter a repair bill that exceeds the purchase price you can just junk it. Couldn't find anything on fuel consumption for the base model. Good luck with your plans. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 14:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your excellent responses thus far. 76.97, the links you gave me were particularily useful in determining a ballpark price, thank you for that! And also thank you all for the responses to my insurance question. It appears I am indeed a true n00b when it comes to matters of insurance, but at least now I understand it better! --71.117.36.200 (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you need a special license to drive a bus? Louis Waweru  Talk  16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on location, but usually yes. See Commercial driver's license. According to the article, you need a CDL in the US if you are driving a vehicle, regardless of weight, designed to transport 16 or more people. -- 128.104.112.72 (talk) 21:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Boohaaaa Forget commercial driver's license. If they are all under 18 then all they have are "probationary" licenses. These are the rules for Wisconsin [18] You can't go partying without an adult with a license driving. None of you can take more than one passenger (plus any family members you like - just what you wanted that bus for, right?) @ 128 If you look at OPs link the vehicle they are looking to purchase seats 10. Unless Wisconsin has some restrictions I don't know about that should be o.k. with an adult license. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

In the state of Wisconsin, GDL (Graduated Drivers Licensing) lasts for 9 months without moving violations or until the driver turns 18. Wisconsin DOT Teen Driving FAQ --71.117.34.23 (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)