Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 September 2

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September 2

Finnegan's wake translation

could you paraphrase the first few sentences of Finnegan's wake? I find it to be gibberish, like in another language.

what i mean by 'paraphrase' is this. If a Spaniard or Frenchman were reading it in translation, I can guarantee that it would be far closer to something they can understand. A publisher wouldn't accept a translation that looks like gibberish.

Could you do me the same thing of paraphrasing it into English (as a translated version might read in French, Spanish, German, etc - but in English)? Just a few sentences. Thanks. 178.48.114.143 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Everyone finds it to be gibberish, that's kind of the point. It doesn't mean anything! (It's also gibberish in the French translation, by the way.) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:30, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't have my copy of the book here and it's been quite a while since I read it, but, if I remember correctly the opening "sentence" is actually the last fragment of a sentence that "begins" at the end of the book. Welcome to the world of James Joyce.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 02:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It isn't complete gibberish; it's establishing the setting. When you put it with the last sentence, it makes more sense. In the Wikipedia article Finnegans Wake#Book I it puts the sentences together "a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs." It explains not only the physical setting of the book "Howth Castle and Environs" and explains the cyclical nature of the story "recirculation back", etc. The actual language is a bit harsh, if only because Joyce is writing in stream of consciousness; i.e. his writing is meant to mirror the disjointed manner in which people actually think without consideration given to composing for reading. It's supposed to be "thinking unfiltered". It's also quite difficult to read, but still a landmark work, if only because of the sort of influence it had on later, more approachable works. Joyce represents an important bridge between the linguistic wordplay of authors before him like Lewis Carroll and more modern authors like Thomas Pynchon and Anthony Burgess whose works are plainly inspired directly by Finnegans Wake. You can't read Gravity's Rainbow or A Clockwork Orange and not see the influence. Which is not to say that Finnegans Wake is easy or readable in any sense. It's really difficult to extract even a plot out of it. But it's still important. I did find, in my searches, this website which does have a gloss that explains some of the difficult words in the work. --Jayron32 03:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

As for my actual request...? Could you paraphrase the beginning into normal English? 178.48.114.143 (talk)

Of course there is an endless trove of secondary literature analyzing and trying to make sense of Finnegan's Wake (eg, this paper on the very first word, riverrun), but if you just want to get an idea of what makes the book intriguing and frustrating, read this NYRB article by author Michael Chabon, which includes an attempted 'paraphrase' of the opening sentences (see Section 2). Abecedare (talk) 03:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

As a stickler for apostrophes, I have to point out that the title is Finnegans Wake, without one. Anthony Burgess (mentioned above by Jayron) wrote a book called Here Comes Everybody: Introduction to James Joyce for the Ordinary Reader, which includes a fairly detailed description of what [he thinks] is going on in FW (and also in Ulysses). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:38, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

OP here. I can easily see what 'makes the book intriguing and frustrating'. I would like to see anyone's paraphrasing of it into readable normal English. (Obviously at great stylistic loss.) 178.48.114.143 (talk) 11:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that it's a matter of packed or overlapping meanings, not just a "stylistic" one. Vicus, for instance, is the Latin word meaning "neighborhood" or "village", but it's also a reference to Giambattista Vico, whose cyclic ("recirculation") theory of history is a recurring theme in the book. I don't see how a paraphrase can capture that. Deor (talk) 13:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how much you capture. Can you at least capture SOME of it with a paraphrase of the first few sentences? So far you've given me nothing at all. (Incidentally it is possible to capture several meanings if you are willing to paraphrase at much greater length.) You don't have to produce something that is stylistically interesting or a free 'translation'. Just paraphrase for comprehension, please. Thank you. 178.48.114.143 (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

• And to think, when my grandmother got Wernike's aphasia from a stroke she was only channeling Joyce. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

You probably mean "Wernicke's aphasia".—Wavelength (talk) 19:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I mean she was undervalued, or he was overvalued. μηδείς (talk) 21:00, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Nothing known about the man who ended WWII?

(Moved to Humanities --KnightMove (talk) 12:21, 2 September 2013 (UTC))

Chriki - surname

I used to have a TA (Teaching Assistant) whose surname was Chriki. She was from Israel, and sometimes she would comment on her lectures with her country, like how she would associate the alarm on our campus to wartime alarms in Israel due to classical conditioning. After class one time, I eavesdropped a conversation between her and a fellow classmate, and I asked them about the language that they were speaking. Well, it turned out that they were speaking in Hebrew. OK. So, it is quite possible that Chriki may be a Hebrew, but still Hebrew may be dominant language of Israel, and the name Chriki may be in a minority language in Israel. A quick search on Google brings me to this site, where a Canadian actress goes by a similar name - Chriqui. First of all, why are there loud alarms in Israel? Second of all, is Chriki the same name as Chriqui? What is the original script of the name? (Yeah, even my own name has been Americanized.) 65.24.105.132 (talk) 14:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Chriqui, if I recall correctly, is a Moroccan Sephardi name. The spelling Chriqui is French; Chriki is an attempt to Americanize the less intuitive parts of the name. The Hebrew spelling is שריקי (Shriki). I would guess that the name is originally Arabic. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 15:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Quite right - I found this: "Chriqui is 'oriental' in Arabic. It refers to an origin. The name is widespread in North Africa. Its spelling varies due to French influence i.e., Chouraqui..." [1]

As to why they have loud alarms in Israeli schools, see Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel and List of Palestinian suicide attacks. Alansplodge (talk) 17:24, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Attire

When I look up the definition of "attire" and it says clothes or apparel, especially rich or splendid garments. However, another definition of "attire" is the horns of a deer - according to Dictionary.com online dictionary. How are the horns of a deer related to fine clothing? How did the same word come up with two entirely different definitions and when did that happen?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

According to the OED, the original meaning of "attire" is something like "outfit, equipment". Between the 14th and 17th centuries, it could also more specifically refer to "head-gear" or "head-dress" (i.e. anything you wear on your head, such as the decorations on a helmet etc.). From there it was evidently transferred to the "deer" sense, as the horns were seen as the decorative "outfit" or "gear" of the animal, especially in the context of hunting and heraldry. The hunting sense is attested in OED since the mid-16th century. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Likewise, EO says it originated as a verb and meant "to equip".[2] It's not hard to imagine that any horned animal could be said to be "well-equipped". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for answers. I believe I have the idea now.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 14:51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Pon Haus pronunciation

What would be the Penna. Dutch pronunciation of Pon Haus? μηδείς (talk) 20:57, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

A word with unclear etymology and spelling. de:Panhas has technical, Rhenish dictionary:Pannas lexical information. plattmakers.de:Pannharst includes a German pronunciation and dictionary.com:Pannhas an English one together with a false popular etymology. The etymology in Sauerkraut Yankees, pp 42f is far-fetched. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's not a direct answer, but if it's spelt Panhas in German that tells me how to pronounce it in German. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

pseudodictionary:scrapple alias panhas explains: "The "Dutch" name for scrapple is panhas, which has many spellings, some of which as found on the internet are as follows: panhas, pannhas, panhaas, panhoss, pan hoss, panhaus, ponhaus, pon haus, pon-hoss, pawnhas, pawnhoss, paunhaus, pfannhas . . . and others no doubt. We used to pronounce it "pahn-hahss." It's really quite good. Dutch Pantry restaurants used to serve it. And e.g., Mom's homemade panhas was to die for, so to speak" --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I suspect then that the different English spellings reflect the cot/caught merger and the expected German pronunciation as you give make sense. I have never heard the word. μηδείς (talk) 15:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)