Trutheyeness
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February 2018
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Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), such as at User talk:Jmcgnh, please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:
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Thank you. — jmcgnh(talk) (contribs) 20:59, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Please see the above: you are still not signing your posts. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:16, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
July 2018
edit Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to Nirvikalpa, did not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use the sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. Thank you. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:20, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Hi Trutheyeness. Most materials can be found in note 21 of the FNT-article. Try searching the titles plus "pdf"; a lot can be found online. Also take a look at A Handfull of Leaves; great site. Of this list a selection:
- Bronkhorst, Johannes (1993) [1986], The Two Traditions Of Meditation In Ancient India, Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, chapter 8
- Tilman Vetter (1988), The Ideas and Meditative Practices of Early Buddhism, by Tilmann Vetter
- Richard F. Gombrich (2006) [1996]. How Buddhism Began: The Conditioned Genesis of the Early Teachings. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-134-19639-5., chapter four
- Anderson, Carol (1999), Pain and Its Ending: The Four Noble Truths in the Theravada Buddhist Canon, Routledge
Schmitthausen is indeed hard to find; but Bronkhorst, Vetter, Gombrich and Anderson provide excellent introductions. Additionaly, also read Twelve Nidānas#Development of the twelve nidanas, and Pre-sectarian Buddhism. Early, pre-sectarian Buddhism is a very interesting topic; when you dare to look with an unbiased eye, tremendous new insights into Buddhism can be gained. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan: Thanks for the links. I'm making my way through them slowly. The authors' approach to sutta analysis is interesting. Trutheyeness (talk) 13:18, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'm studying Buddhism for 30 years now, and I'm still learning... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:, I read through the literature you provided me with, spoke to a few practicing monks and did some meditation. Having done so, I believe that the logic used to conclude that the four noble truths are a later addition is flawed. The authors have taken the eight fold path as an indivisible, monolithic concept, which runs contrary to the suttas (which in general state that things are aggregates of other things). I'll use the following fictional story as an example:
- Suppose that there is a man in Texas (America) who wanted to get to the Canada. He sees a sign pointing towards New Mexico, with the text 'This way to Canda'. So over many weeks he walks to New Mexico. As he searches around New Mexico, he finds another sign pointing towards Missouri saying 'This way to Canada'. So over many weeks he walks to Missouri. As he searches around Montana, he finds another sign pointing towards Colorado saying 'This way to Canda'. So over many weeks he walks to Colorado. Having done this repeatedly, he finally gets to North Dakota. Having gotten to North Dakota, he looks for the Canadian border, but can't find it. All there is, is forest as far as the eye can see. He asks some other travelers in the area, and they don't know how to get to Canada either. Then he reflects on his journey so far and realises that although he's been cris-crossing between states, the signs had all sent him further and further North. Having understood this, he realises that if he keeps going North, through the forest, he will eventually get to the Canadian border. So he starts his journey through the forest. Having walked for miles, he finds a clearing with a sign saying 'Canadian border - valid visa needed to enter'. Having seen this sign, he knows he has arrived.
- Now, in this story, the traveler only had an insight that he had to travel North to get to Canada when he was right next to his border. Despite this, someone may still ask 'how did you get from Texas to North Dakota in the first place if you didn't know that you needed to go North?'. The answer is that he went in directions that consistently had a Northward component, such that he ended up going North without realising that he went North.
- Similarly, Vetter etc. may say 'the Buddha cannot have had an insight into the eight fold path just before enlightnment, because he must have followed the path to get to where he was when he supposedly had the insight'. However, their oversight is that many other practices incorporate certain aspects of the eight fold path, and performing those practices in aggregate may result in an individual following the whole of the path. In addition to this, practicing meditators consistently say that each factor of the eight fold path supports the other. Thus the eight fold path is practiced, not sequentially, but in aggregate such that each 'round' of practice refines our mastery over it and ability to traverse it. E.g. a beginner's understanding of 'right view' will be completely different from an arahant's appreciation of it.
- Given the above, I believe that a few articles in Wikipedia will need to be changed to reflect this. Trutheyeness (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- Wikipedia gives an overview of what WP:RS say, not of personal opnions or interpretations (see WP:OR). The whole idea of insight as the defining moment on the Buddhist path is probably a later development, under the influence of other Indian traditions. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:14, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:, I mentioned the above because to me, the seemingly iron-clad logic of Vetter's statement is the only thing that gives such an assertion legitimacy. Given that I have demonstrated that it is not at all iron-clad I believe it will be fairly straightforward to find scholarly texts affirming that the four noble truths are integral to the Buddha's teaching, and are not a later development influenced by other traditions (having had a read of sources listed on Wikipedia I believe that these sources may have been misrepresented... I'll present evidence in due course). However, I'll start that discussion on the 'Four Noble Truths' page so that others can weigh in if they like. Trutheyeness (talk) 07:47, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Article talk pages
editHello Trutheyeness, please see WP:TALK, it explains how to use wp article talk pages. JimRenge (talk) 11:01, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Original research
editThis is WP:OR. It's one thing to use talkapges as a WP:FORUM; it's another thing to use Wikipedia-pages as a venture for your research and conclusions. Honestly, I think you WP:DONTGETIT: while Buddhist orthodoxy says that insight is the main road to liberation, scholars widely agree that jhana and insight are both presented as liberating in the sutras, and jhana was probably the oldest element. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)