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Welcome!

Welcome!

Hello, Nialarfatem, and welcome to Wikipedia! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, please see our help pages, and if you can't find what you are looking for there, please feel free to ask me on my talk page or place {{Help me}} on this page and someone will drop by to help. Again, welcome! Rosiestep (talk) 18:01, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Infobox stats

Please note that we only include domestic league games in the infobox - so no Cup or Continental matches etc. Please also ensure that, when you update the stats, you also update the date, using ~~~~~. If you have any questions, please ask. GiantSnowman 20:56, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello! Many thanks for the information, but I only include domestic league games in the infobox when updating club games, and I always update the date when I update the stats. In fact, lately I've been updating only the date for many players, because people forget to update it, while they update the stats... now, I do have a question... I don't understand what you mean with using ~~~~~ for the date, could you please elaborate? Cheers! Nialarfatem (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Never mind... I got it from the edit you made... Thanks! Kind regards! Nialarfatem (talk) 21:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Good going and advice

Hi Nialarfatem. I see you haven't been here that long but you're already a prolific editor. Good going!

An important tip if I may:

Use the template at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players as a guide and avoid straying from it. It has evolved through discussion between editors of football articles at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football. For example, at Ludwig Augustinsson (link) you added "and the" and "the" above the "List of international goals". If you're convinced that this is better wording, it would be good to get consensus for it. Otherwise, you will find other editors reverting these kinds of changes which can result in a pointless back and forth. Discussion usually happens at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Players for questions relating to the template or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football.

Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 22:19, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I would also point out that we don't need to add "on" or full stops, like you did [https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Andreas_Christensen&diff=1030575507&oldid=1030575180 here, when dealing with sentence fragments. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

On top of the page WP:WikiProject Football/Players says the following: This page provides a suggested layout for footballer biographies., which clearly means I am not obliged to not close the sentences without dots when they end and think they need one, and, also, I am not obliged to not use "on" before dates if I think I have to (specific dates), but thanks anyway for the tips...

By the way, why does a sentence fragment have to start with a capital letter, but not end with a full stop?

Besides, I do many of these edits by default, because I have grammar and syntax extensions on the browser...

Thank you both for your contribution to updating football statistics! Keep it up!

Kind regards!

Nialarfatem (talk) 20:35, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

It's part of the suggested layout as it's better grammatically. See MOS:CAPFRAG (this refers to image captions, but the principle's the same). Mattythewhite (talk) 21:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

I see now it's obligatory to follow the "suggested" layout, according to MOS:CAPFRAG, even though the reference to WP:WikiProject Football/Players speaks only for a suggested layout. I was told to check the latter, and, as it was about a suggested layout, I didn't think I had to follow it like a mindless bot, but it's now clear I have.

Of course, the "suggested" from that article should be removed, as otherwise this remains contradictory, and the layout to be obligatory, as per regulations of MOS:CAPFRAG.

Thanks for the info! No-one showed me MOS:CAPFRAG before. I will follow that from now onwards...

Kind regards!

Nialarfatem (talk) 21:42, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

June 2021

Hello, I'm GiantSnowman. I noticed that you recently removed content from Jannik Vestergaard without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. GiantSnowman 21:21, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

As others who have been here a lot longer than you have already advised you - follow the MOS and listen to our advice. GiantSnowman 21:30, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: While Nialarfatem may have removed content without explaining why, I'd say it's standard practice for uncapped years to not be included in international stats tables. And it seems unfair to quote the MoS when you changed it to include an uncapped year (which ought to have been discussed at the talk page first to garner consensus) *after* you warned Nialarfatem. Mattythewhite (talk) 21:41, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@Mattythewhite: - no, it's standard for the years to be included, just as we do with club stats etc., as it provides a full picture. I merely updated the MOS to reflect that practice, and to restore what I am sure was an older version of the MOS (although maybe I have misremembered). GiantSnowman 07:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Changing the MOS to back up what you're saying after you've told someone to consult the MOS is very amusing. It was never in an older version of the MOS. In fact, you were the one who "simplified" the only table that came close to showing no appearances. Anyway, I guess what you're saying makes sense in regards to a comparison vs. club statistics. If a player did not play for their club for a decade we would still record the appearance-less seasons in their club career statistics. I guess for consistency we have to, but it's completely OTT when you actually see it in practice. For instance, if this is put into practice for Maarten Stekelenburg, we would see an overly stretched out table with 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 listed with no data. I'm not sure users need to see an elongated table with loads of 0's to "provide a full picture", I imagine they're very capable of working out he simply won't have been in the international picture for the years not included. SBFCEdit (talk) 12:26, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

I only removed the years with 0 caps, because in the previous edits that I included them (because in most players these years are actually missing) I was told to not include them (and actually the vast majority of them was reverted), and, by the way, I had included them before for exactly the reason that included they give a complete picture of the player's career. If you don't believe this, you are free to search through my edits' history, so to attest it yourself...

Now, I must thank you for the reversion, as I now know I was right in the first place to include the years with 0 caps.

I have a question, though, if I may, what does "BRD" mean in "per BRD"? I am asking because I have no idea what this abbreviation means, and didn't find any explanation for this after an exhaustive Google search.

By the way, I only reverted it so to adequately (or thought so) explain why, since I was told to not remove content without adequate explanation.

In case you respond, thanks in advance!

P.S.: I have been on WP since the time it was first launched, so it's impossible for someone to have been here longer than me.

Kind regards! Nialarfatem (talk) 22:37, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you are right to include them! WP:BRD means that if you make an edit which is reverted, you should discuss it rather than continuing to edit war. GiantSnowman 07:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

IFFHS / RSSSF tables

Please, consider giving your opinion here: https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:List_of_footballers_with_500_or_more_goals#Obfuscating_data

Thank you.LoorNabs (talk) 14:35, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

You have completely misunderstood the text

The article as written says: "When reporting the statistics of Messi, Barcelona argued that because Bican and Pelé, as well as Erwin Helmchen and Abe Lenstra among others, scored the majority of their goals in leagues which were not played at a national level, their tallies should be questioned and potentially not counted".

• The source first says, regarding Bican: "So does that make Messi the highest goalscorer of all time in any European league? Note what only count here are goals scored in a national ‘top league’. Not cups, continental competitions, lower or youth divisions, friendlies or international matches. Some would say it does. Others would say it doesn’t. The problem is that there are two other candidates who scored even more league goals, but it is unclear whether they should be counted or not - So, it's established here that Bican's total includes goals not at the top level, and it's therefore unclear whether they should be counted or not i.e. "their tallies should be questioned and potentially not counted".
• The source then says, regarding Pele: "Also, the vast majority of his goals were scored in the Sao Paulo state championship. Until 1971, when the Brazilian Serie A was formed, there was no national league and clubs from different states met at an end-of-season playoff to decide the national champion. Only about 100 of Pele’s goals were scored at strictly ‘national’ level. With Brazilian football in its heyday, the country winning three World Cups in the Pele era in a time before the big names all left for Europe, the Paulistão was one of the strongest leagues in the world… But do we count Pele’s goals or not? The problem for Pele is that if we do, then there is no reason why we shouldn’t also include the likes of Erwin Helmchen (1927-42) and Abe Lenstra (1936-63) who scored 800+ and 636 goals in Germany and Holland respectively before those countries set up their own truly national league competitions." - so, because Pele (and Helmchen and Lenstra) scored their goals not at a national level, ergo it is unclear whether they should be counted or not. The source also states, to solidly state its' confusion, that Pele scored "Between 510 and 619 goals for Santos (Brazil) from 1956-74". And so, per the source, it is unclear whether goals at non-national level should be counted or not, and therefore "their tallies should be questioned and potentially not counted". In conclusion, there is no clarification needed as it's already written suitable as per the source and what it says, unless you have any proposed improvements? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

@ItsKesha: Hello! Our recent history has shown I am not the one between us who is "fixated" with WP:NOR, and since you start saying things like "therefore this…" and "in conclusion,…" it's clearly something implied (hence OR) and not stated directly. However, personally I am not against reaching to conclusions of any type, as long as these make statistical sense, and I would urge people to even compose statistical graphs, as I see things from a statistical point of view, not a WP's point of view, even though WP does not agree, so I have removed the clarification template. Also, I must say I appreciate the work you are doing in this list, but please take my advice to separate the statistical sources (IFFHS and RSSSF), along with FIFA (as the highest governing body of football, not as a statistical source, so what they recognize and what they don't recognize is valid and important), from the rest (could be done if using two different sections) into consideration, because the rest are easily questionable for various reasons. For instance, speaking of what the site of Barcelona claims, it's obviously not a reliable source, since there are interests involved: they will easily claim Messi has the record (whatever that is, more league goals, more goals with one club et c.) because, as you very well said and concluded from most of the sources you provided in the article, many of the numbers of older players are questionable, even though for many of them there are many books and sources for the claims (RSSSF and IFFHS have proofs for what they claim and, in case they make mistakes, they do correct them in their next updates, so we have no reason to question them, that's why the importance is on them, not on other media outlets, if statistical organizations are included in the group of media outlets), same thing, by the way, will do São Paulo for Pelé, et c., either for glory and/or pride and/or profit, and for the same reasons what footballers claim is also irrelevant (CR7, Pelé, Romário, et c.), because there are conflicts of interest and the majority of them is not statisticians or at least people with some statistical background. I will soon, i.e. as soon as I get time, add some more explanatory content on the matter that takes place in the talk page of the article (for instance, why there should be two separate lists and not one, where I must note I recall asking you kindly twice to return to the previous format, and it must be highlighted I never reverted it to a two-lists format, but 7 (!) other people did, so that must mean something), content that I hope will clarify and be of help. Cheers! Nialarfatem (talk) 22:36, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Notice of Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Violation of policy on courtesy vanishing. Thank you. GeneralNotability (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)